Lovefraud receives many letters from people who want a sign. Readers ask, “How do I know whether or not someone is a sociopath?” There is one behavior that every sociopath engages in to extreme excess. If I were only allowed one criteria for the diagnosis I would choose this behavior. If someone does not do this thing to extreme excess he/she is certainly not a sociopath. Those of you who have been involved with a sociopath know too well what this one thing is. It is lying.
I enjoy reading old religious texts because I believe there is truly nothing new under the sun. It is comforting to get reassurance of that fact. I mentioned some time ago that female sociopaths are described in the Bible. The cardinal symptom of sociopathy is described best in the Babylonian Talmud! One source I found dated this document to the 6th century.
The Babylonian Talmud describes something called geneivat da’at (literally, theft of one’s mind, thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge), i.e., fooling someone and thereby causing him or her to have a mistaken assumption, belief, and/or impression. The sages believed that there are seven types of thieves and, of these, the most egregious is the one who “steals the minds” of people.
Anyone who has been in contact with a sociopath has had his/her mind stolen. Sociopaths do not interact with anyone without stealing a mind.
Although sociopaths are very proud of their ability to steal minds, this behavior does not make them unique, talented or special. Sociopaths are just the worst species of thief!
Many are baffled by the lying sociopaths engage in. A reader who wrote me recently commented that they lie even when the truth sounds better. Sociopaths continue to lie even after their lies are discovered. This often makes them look silly.
Sociopaths lie in order to steal the minds of others. They do this because of an unrestrained drive for power and control. This drive is present in all of their dealings with others.
The best thing to do if your mind has been stolen by a sociopath is Take it Back! Don’t have any more interactions with that person. Accept that you can never deal with a sociopath without experiencing the theft of your mind.
My 16 year old son has been in juvenile hall 5 times this year. He was just in for a month from after Thanksgiving to right after Christmas but then the felony charges were dropped so he got out and gloated about what he had done. He tried for a couple of days to be good (I think) but then yesterday I noticed that my other son’s car was missing (while he was on vacation) so I found it parked up the block and a duplicate key on my sociopath son’s dresser. I called the police again and had him arrested right from his bed. What is different this time is that usually he tells the truth, omitting anything that has anything to do wtih his part in it. This time, he is flat out lying through his teeth and blaming me for his actions. This is crazy making!!! I can’t even go visit him because why would I subject myself to all of his mind games? I don’t know if there is any help for him but I’ve asked his PO to order a phychiatric evaluation.
As I keep reading all these comments, I’m continually amazed at how many of us have been conned by lies that we took for truth. I read in the news where the woman from Georgia has apparently been killed and they have the man in custody who they suspect is her killer. As I was reading that, I thought of how often we tell our children to not talk to strangers. Then as adults, we talk with strangers to find our likes and dislikes and see if we are compatible enough to form a relationship. This woman apparently befriended this man, and now she is dead. Even if we know the signs will we recognize them, if we are broken within ourselves and just looking for human compassion and friendship? I think that’s where we all need to be strong within ourselves and not allow another to determine our boundaries. I hadn’t guarded my heart because I didn’t think I needed to guard it against someone who said they loved me. That doesn’t matter. God tells us to guard our hearts and to not put our trust in man. He says who can know a man’s heart. It’s deceitful above all things. That’s not just man, but human. http://www.the-daily-blessing.com/devotions/jun18_2007.php Here’s a good site that tells of this very thing. The heart is filled with so much evil unless it’s been emptied and refilled with good.
This young woman is most likely gone. They have found 3 bloodied fleece tops of hers. How horrible for her parents. How many others are out there with the same intent, who appear harmless. This man in question is 61. Could be someone’s grandfather. I know for me, from all these readings and what I see and hear in my own living, that I feel lucky to have escaped in one piece, with only my credit rating and emotions messed up. I can recover. Those less fortunate can’t. How well do we know each other? It took me 31 years to finally get some semblance of truth out of my husband. It was my own sleuthing that revealed truth about my friend. He lied about so many things or told half truths that couldn’t be confirmed, but just didn’t feel right to me. I escaped that, too.
In my job, I talk with strangers everyday. I have had more offers than I ever imagined from total strangers. They will move in one day. The next day they will come into my office and want to ask me a question. I always figure it’s to ask where the dumpster is or how much the washing machines take, but the question most times is, will I have sex with them. They don’t even know me. I’m the landlord, they are the tenant. Strangers. They just don’t care. They are out there crossing everyone’s boundaries. I let them down gently, but they don’t have a clue as to what I’m thinking. I stay to myself and most of them think I’m boring. Maybe so, but I’m alive and don’t have the disease of the moment.
Strangers. Strange. Hidden agenda. How well do we know anyone? We really need to stay alert. This hiker in question even had her dog with her. He’s alive, but apparently she isn’t. All because of a stranger she must have befriended. So much evil intent. No wonder they are having taser parties.
This is out of topic but I really want to share with you and know if someone went through similar experience. The more I read the more I find astonishing revelations about my ex behaviors. I was reading on Dr Hare book that Sociopaths have unrealistic goals in life and no idea how to achieve or the education needed to accomplish them. This is so true about my ex. During the time we’re together he changed at least six or seven times career goals and education plans as I can remember. He works in construction and one day he told me how he wanted to be a police officer because he didn’t want to work in construction all his life. I decided to go with him to the police headquarters and find out the requirements for that. He got the papers went to some workshops and everything, seemed so interested, I remember that one of the requirements to enter the police College it was to have finished grade 12. He decided to sign up to finish is grade by correspondence on a part time fashion. He started and everything but after awhile gave up the education and decide to go to gym to get some more muscle because for him that was the most important requirement because he convinced himself that they would eventually accept him because of his physical fitness. Can you believe it? Then he wanted to be a bus driver and work for a public transportation company. Again we search the internet for the requirements and he even told me he went to the Main office to know about the requirements for that and so on. And nothing, again the idea just went dawn the drain after a while. Then he told me about his dream to be a pilot and even told me of his idea of quitting his job and going to the unemployment services to see how much he would get from them and borrow money and apply for the pilot course, I thought it was an absurd idea, but didn’t say anything because I knew he would not accomplish that, and I was right. Another time he came to me, and this time seemed really decided to change his career and goals, told me that he wanted to quit his job and go back to school to do a College degree in Office Management, at this time I didn’t waist my time helping or giving advice because I knew he would not fulfill his expectations as it happen before and I was right. Then he told me he wanted at least to do a specialty in the area he was working which is construction. I decided to help him again, went to pick up a College book with the continuing education programs and we’re looking and see which program he would like to take (we look at different types of electricity programs and so on), and it was decided that this time he will sign up for one of the electricity programs. Did he accomplish it? NO!! What I don’t understand (I read it somewhere that usually sociopaths are very smart people), and he is a smart guy for other things, how come some of them (which is my ex case) can’t accomplish things in life the way normal people do? Looks like they like short cuts for everything. Are they really smart?
Sunny, you said:
“I thought I was done posting comments and reading but I’m not. Last night I had to tell a very nice man that I wasn’t ready to date. I hated when he asked me questions about my goals and dreams. I was abrupt and bitchy to him. I see why. Because the sociopath I was involved with asked the very same questions when we first me. And I answered them freely. He feigned interest in my life, but really he was gathering forensic data about me to construct a false dream and parade it in front of me..”look I made your dreams come true”now you are my prisoner.” I tried to explain to this date what had happened to me. But I just sounded like a bitter, disappointed woman who “got burned.” I tried to explain that no, this was different, I didn’t get burned, I got conned. But not so much conned as much as having my dreams mocked and falsely made true just to torture me. That I was in a relationship with a lie, with a carefully crafted lie.
The point is, there are no words. We can’t explain to anyone. I don’t know what is happening to me each day in this healing process of nearly a year. I am able to feel alive now. But I still I cry. I often isolate. I am angry and short tempered. I am tired and exhausted when I used to be so energentic. I have no deisre to achieve goals. I have no friends. It’s not depression, I know what that is. I am in recovery and not from a normal breakup. This feels like a fight for my life and I am fighting to become the woman I was before I met him. ”
Wow. This hit home. I try sometimes to tell people – even my biological father who walked with me every step of the way through this crazy relationship after the guy returned, who I confided every detail to as they happened – the gaslighting, the mental cruelty, emotional abuse, crazy actions — and even my dad doesn’t get it.
Must be human nature not to know what do when confronted with evil that’s incomprehensible. People want to find a way to file these experiences into a cabinet of normality. BUT THEY DON’T FIT.
Which is why we spent so much time turning these people over and over in our minds, trying to figure out what it all meant. It didn’t fit! And some people, rather than try to figure it out, merely ignore or dismiss what does not fit.
When alone, I often feel very much as you described: my dreams were promised to me for the sole purpose of destroying them and laughing as it happened. That was it. There was no real relationship, no planned marriage on his part, no real love. He just said all that — the higher the pedestal he could build, the more fun he’d have watching me fall – and the more likely I’d get bruised.
The catch was that I never could trust him this time. I tried. I wanted to. There’s not a soul alive that I don’t trust aside from my abusive family member and sometimes, I even believe what HE says. It’s not in my nature not to want so much to trust someone, particularly someone I love. So you know, I was disappointed in myself, at first, for not being able to trust him and let go of the past.
By the end, when Mr. Hyde had returned full-on, it seemed like the not trusting thing, along with talking to trusted friends every day about what he was doing, were the two most self-protective acts I’d ever managed. Almost all by accident. Kinda proves the notion that God looks after the very young, the very old and/or the very stupid! 🙂 He sure was watching out for me.
Please promise yourself to try and trust again. Otherwise, you know, the Bad Man wins. You don’t want that. You’re far too valuable to let him take off with your mind and then KEEP IT. That’s what he wants. That’s not what you want.
I spent more than ten years of my life in love with an illusion. When he and I met, I was a very cute, newly single 28. What I wouldn’t give to have all that time back. He’s not getting a minute more of my life, heart or mind — because it’s all a wasteful bit of smoke and mirrors fakery with those S men.
pitanga,
My ex is the same only he would accomplish some of his goals and then quit because it didn’t pay enough, too stressful, or the company (he used this one a couple of times)was going to transfer him or shut down.
He was in a band before I met him, but stopped playing all together. It was for noble reasons of course. He didn’t want to end up like the older guys in his band. So he went to tech school and got a job. He told me he had left that job because they took advantage of him. He also told me, after we were engaged, that he had his boss up against the wall the day he left.
You know what? I’ll be here all day if I write all the details because there is so much. I’ll try an abridged version.
We met in 1988 and by the time we were married in ’90 he was on his 4th job. He went back to the job where he had the boss against the wall and stayed there 2 yrs. Then moved us(at the time I thought I was making the decision with him, but it was lies and manipulation that made me go) out of state because his company was closing, but he didn’t know when. We were there 6 months and his job wasn’t working out so he cried on old bosses shoulder and got his job back. We moved across country back home. He stayed there for another yr and a half. Then got hired in same field by another co. (1st co. finally starting to close) He got fired after a few months . It wasn’t his fault though-of course. Then he went from job to job. I can’t even remember how many. He looked into nursing school and a physician asst during this time. Didn’t do either. Then he got a job that he kept for probably a couple of yrs until they were going to transfer him because the co. was leaving town. To this day the co. is still in the area. Two more jobs followed until he got a county job. I thought finally everything was going to be OK. Three yrs later he couldn’t take the stress anymore (the stress was also his reason for treating our son and me badly) and started a side business so he wouldn’t have to work overtime in the jail. He ended up quitting the jail and going full time with the business. The story of how he got me to be OK with him doing this is a whole other story that I didn’t even figure out until he moved out. During the next four years he had 2 different co. in same kind of business and one other type in two different locations because the 1st was failing. So basically a business a yr. He also was sued at least 3 times and we had to declare bankruptcy.(twice if you count converting to a different chapter) After all that he moved us out of state again. He waited until everything was set with his job and then he told me he wanted to try separation. Oh wait! I forgot he quit his first job after the move because of a sure thing that he didn’t get because he failed the lie detector test. He did that while I was back home taking care of family business when my father died. He hasn’t been at his current job for 2 yrs yet, but he’s already talking about moving again. His gf’s house is for sale. Actually, he started talking about moving after a few months there when we were still together and I said no. My counselor said that me finally getting stronger and my mother being out of money is why he finally just left.
When I see this written down it’s so embarrassing that I believed all his lies and sob stories. I really thought our family was the most important thing to him and he was trying so hard to better himself for us. He blamed me for all his job troubles when he left. He said and I quote ” It’s all your fault I did everything that I did. I was searching for something because I was so lonely and empty.”
That’s the abridged version!
I have just read every one of these posts. Took some time but….wow. What drew me is the “stealing the mind”.
For months after I left (18 months clear now) I would talk about what happened to close friends or family, and get really frustrated and angry that they weren’t understanding. I used that very expression, said the man “stole my mind, my thoughts, and my dreams and made them his”..people looked at me as though I was mad, I was obviously hysterical.
Sunny, I read your post at the beginning about 3 times just to make sure I hadn’t written it. I could have.
I don’t talk about it to anyone anymore other than to say I had a bad experienced with an unbalanced man. That seems enough.
It is so reassuring to have somewhere you can say these things and have a reaction of “ah yes, I know exactly what you mean”.
If it helps any of you to know this, I am coming through it finally. He no longer has so much control in my mind. It amazed me how long that continued even after I had left him. They seem able to invade your mind even a million miles away, with no contact, once they have a grip on you. They seem to leave footprints all over your soul, your heart and your mind and you just can’t erase them.
For months I still found him in my head, I could feel his “disapproval” or “disappointment” and for months I had imaginary conversations with him where I ranted and raved at him about the things he had done. I knew it was probably far more effective to do it that way, because to say any of it to him was a waste of time and energy and I would be left emotionally shredded while he just had nothing to say, no compassion, no empathy, just took it in and delivered the ulitimate insult – just completely ignored me as if I didn’t exist.
We all believed them and we shouldn’t feel bad about that. They are skilled masters at what they do and we are just decent folk not looking to exploit, manipulate, lie or cheat our way through life, and so we don’t expect others to either. We aren’t looking for it, we aren’t necessarily even aware it’s out there other than in films, books or the news. We weren’t born with a manual under our arm saying “watch out for the monster – he is real!” and so we are caught off guard and our decent moral spirit is abused and used and almost broken by someone disarmingly charming, totally believable, and highly dangerous. Look at how many of us have had a shared experience, felt the same pain, suffered the same aftermath. We can’t all be idiots can we. They are just as successful as the stealthy thief who can invade your home and steal your valuables without you even noticing.
They steal your mind. Only you can get it back, they won’t give it to you, but they sure will play with you for as long as you let them, and you will never ever get the better of them. Why? Because you are not one of them, you don’t think in the same twisted way they do, you don’t abuse people, you respect, and have a conscience. That’s a good thing to my mind. So don’t try. Just take every measure you can to learn from it, and to heal yourself, and to finally get control of your ship back. You will. It just takes time. I am actually a stronger person in a lot of ways now than I ever was. I see things much more clearly and have learned that to hold anger and bitterness about it any longer is holding me back and giving him power.
I now just concentrate on me, what i want, and making myself feel good. It has taken time, it’s been painful at times, but I am winning – so you can too.
With care
Ellejay
PS – Fighter’s site is brilliant I can vouch for it. So is the team that moderate and give guidance on it. It has helped me no end to understand this sick kind of individual. I recommend you visit.
“Steal your mind” – excellent way to put it. I would “rehearse” in my mind how I would defend myself, intellectually. This became a horrible habit that consumed me. I mean, I didn’t do this with other people in my life. If I wanted to talk to them, I called them, we exchanged thoughts and feelings and we went on about our day.
When he was gone, I found myself still doing it… looking for the right words to put together to get the closure that I needed so much. I finally accepted that it just wasn’t going to happen.
When I was younger, and Naive, I over-talked it with friends, and looking back, I wish I could have just kept it zipped!! Oh well, live and learn..to dwell on it, is what the Sociopath wanted me to do anyway, so that I would question my own sanity. I am glad I found this site….We can help to heal each other, like AA or NA – we know the pain, the cravings, the questioning of ourselves and the destructiveness we had in our lives.
This thread is the best on the site I feel. “Theft of the mind” that sums it up doesn’t it?. I have been thinking about starting a support group in my area for victims of sociopaths. I imagine I would have one hell of a turn out! When I read other’s stories I realize my own situation is not nearly as horrible as so many here. Yet, this man who I was involved with for just under a year has managed to crawl into my mind and under my skin and no matter what I do, I can’t seem to get him out! I realize he could not do that without my permission–and I feel foolish that I can’t just make it stop. I think we’ve all rehashed all the details over and over in our minds ad nauseum–it is just something I think we need to accept that will never make sense–ever! Because the way these sociopath’s interact is nothing close to normal. We are playthings to them, when they become bored with us or we become too difficult they move on and never look back. If they do try to contact us it is for their own entertainment and they will just as easily move on again. Everyone here is right when they say: “No Contact”! Otherwise we are giving them satisfaction and who wants to do that? We will never have closure–they will never feel that they were wrong even if they are capable of understanding it intellectually. Still, just like you, I find myself checking my e-mail and cell phone hoping for that one message that will give me what I am looking for–proof that I was right about him. I will only be able to find that within myself–it will never come from him. How much easier it would be to have him call, tell me lies–believe them and have one big happy ending. Yes, he is the worst kind of thief. Just like the magic tricks he loved to entertain everyone with, he is nothing but smoke and mirrors. He has created an illusion that fooled me and many others, but in the end, he has only fooled himself and created one big empty life for himself. Depressing. I realize I am one of the lucky ones to have found this out when I did, but I am going through hell too. It’s amazing how fast they can perpetuate all this damage. Before you know what hit you, the damage has been done. The only thing that is helping me now is this blog and writing poetry (the best I have ever written). I will also write scathing e-mails to him and save them as drafts. I sent him a couple of the poems–boy he must have gotten off on that! We must become good actresses ourselves and create the illusion to them that we are better than ever and that we never look back–living well is the best revenge after all! I’m glad we have found each other on this hellish journey. Peace.
Today is 1 yr since my ex told me he wanted to leave. I actually was doing Ok I was getting angry again and determined not to let him steal any more of my life. I was trying to be patient with myself. I’m not going to get over more than 18 yrs of abuse overnight. I just came from my counselor ‘s and we got on the subject of responsibility. I brought up a post from here. I understand I couldn’t have married anybody else other than someone like him because of my family of origins and that good and bad are subjective. I understand he is sick and he justifies everything so he feels like he’s doing what he needs to. But I can’t look at it like that because now I’m just sitting here crying feeling sorry for him because he was abused and he’s disordered etc etc. and all of this is what comes from abuse. I know I’m responsible for my denial and my depression and anxiety and tolerating his nonsense and my dependence on him. But we were supposed to be on the same page -to stop the cycle of abuse and not pass it on to our children. He told me whatever he needed to to suck me in and I needed to be loved so I fell for it. How does he justify all the lies and stealing most of my mother’s money(if you lie and manipulate and deceive to get it and leave your family homeless when it’s gone isn’t that stealing?) I never had to question whether my father was abusive. It was obvious. I had little self esteem and everything else the comes from verbal abuse, but I didn’t feel crazy. This experience has me questioning everything to the point of ridiculousness. When he moved out and he got a new cell phone. He had the bill sent to our house and he had put a bunch of ring tones on it . He was 42 yrs old at the time.
Some of the lyrics to two of them are:
I’m the leading man
And the lies I weave are oh so intricate, oh so intricate
and
We will own your thoughts
We’ll own the song stuck in your head
We’ll leave you kicking and screaming
So you can thank us in the end
A year ago these words hurt but helped me realize that I never knew him, that everything was a lie. Now I think I do thank him and the gf in the end for snapping me out of denial. Maybe I’m close to forgiveness. Maybe it all just happened and maybe he’s so sick that he actually believes his own lies and can’t tell the truth from fiction. I do know I never lied to him. I never tried to hurt him and I gave and gave until it hurt me. He lied to me. He tried to hurt me and he took and took until I had nothing left that he wanted.
Distraught- I think a suport group is a great idea and I have thought of the same myself. I am in NJ.
It is true how they penetrate until they seep back into your thoughts. So many times I have to push him out. And many times I fail! I can admit that a day,hour even minute wont go by that thoughts…any thoughts of him are in my head. I am in a battle for my sanity at times. I conjure up fantasy scenerios in my head about running into him or him calling. I play over what I will or want to say. I re-live the lies, manipulation and just sick ways about him. I also dwell on the little nice things he would say and how he knew exactly what to say that made me stay. I know that I have become stronger though. I havent contacted him and it has been easier not to txt or call. I know what is right and it is not him! Nothing about him is right, his mind games on me or his mind at all! He cant be healed, he cant change, he will never be a good person. But I am healing, changing and always was a good person. I WIN