By | May 20, 2009 134 Comments

The Fantasy of Unconditional Love

By Ox Drover

I was led to believe as a child that we should “love unconditionally” and that we should “forgive unconditionally.” This was the rule around our house. I did start to notice, though, that while I was to apply this “unconditional forgiveness and love” to others, those same people did not always apply it to me.

When my children were born, I felt the first real and true “unconditional” love I had ever felt for anyone. I would gaze into the crib and watch my child sleep, little fists curled up, ten perfect little fingers with ten perfect little finger nails. The warmth of this truly “unconditional” love swept through my heart and made my eyes tear up with joy.

Even when my two-year-old son poured a full box of fish food into the aquarium and I had to clean it out and change the water the second time in a week, I did not stop loving him or hold a grudge against him for his behavior. I took the responsibility for his actions because I had left the fish food where he could reach it, and he didn’t know any better. I laughed as I cleaned out the aquarium that I would be so dumb to leave it where he could reach it a second time.

As my children grew and became more independent and self motivated teenagers, I would occasionally become quite frustrated and even angry with them for some of their behavior, especially defiant behavior, but it never dawned on me to not forgive them, or to hold a grudge or to stop loving them, no matter what they did, or even to fear them. I had no concept at that time, that one of my children might actually wish in a long term continuing way to do me harm. My love for them was, I thought, absolutely “unconditional.” Just as my love for my mother, I thought, was unconditional. No matter how angry I got, I knew that I loved her and no matter what she did that upset me or hurt me, it never dawned on me that I could ever stop loving her or that the things she did actually came from a deep down desire to control me, even if this resulted in my harm.

Though there was somehow a difference in how I was required to give her “unconditional forgiveness” and forget about anything she had ever done to me, while she would frequently and critically remind me of things I did as a defiant teenager, I still believed I loved her unconditionally, just like I loved my kids unconditionally, no matter what they did or said.

Throughout many years I held on to this belief, which, I am finding out now, is a fantasy. There are behaviors so heinous that I can no longer love someone. So, in truth, my love for my mother and even my love for my children is not truly “unconditional.” In truth, forgiveness does not include trust and a resumption of a relationship with that person if what they have done is so heinous that you fear them.

I realized that fearing a person precluded me from actually loving them. When you love someone you trust them. When you don’t trust someone, you can’t really love them. WOW! What a revelation for me! If I am afraid of a person, I cannot truly love them. I can be angry with someone I love, I can even be furious with someone I love. If I am afraid of a person, can’t trust them not to hurt me intentionally, how can I love that person at the same time? For me, it was impossible.

I might love the “fantasy” of them, but not the actual scary person that is the real them. When I realized, finally, that my psychopathic son wanted me dead and I began to be afraid of him, I realized the man sitting in a prison cell was truly evil, malicious and dangerous. I also realized I was a fool if I did not take the threat seriously. Then the “love” I had felt, that I had believed was truly unconditional, seeped out, and one day I realized it was gone.

My other biological son, who was at that same time married to a psychopath himself, had distanced himself from me, disappointed me, and to some extent devalued me, which saddened me, but I still loved him ”¦ because I was not afraid of him. In spite of everything, I realized he would not ever deliberately hurt me, or want to deliberately hurt me. Yet, I realized that if he became dangerous to me, or I started to fear him as well, that I would not be able to continue to love him either.

When my “good” son’s wife (now ex-wife) tried to kill him after he found out about the affair she was having with a psychopath, his “unconditional” love for her also evaporated. He started to realize that she was dangerous. Before the attack on my son with a gun by her and her boyfriend, my son had found out about the affair and offered to “go to counseling” and to “work it out” with her. He loved her, and her affair was not something that made him afraid of her. It was only his fear of her after the attempted murder that made him able to detach from his love from her. His love that he had thought was unconditional, his commitment to the marriage that he thought was total, was destroyed by the fear for his life.

I had always thought my loyalty and commitment to my family members and friends was total and unconditional. When I started to experience true fear of some of these people, it made me realize that the only unconditional love in the universe is God’s. The Bible tells me to “love” my enemies and pray for them, but the “love” commanded in the Bible is not the feeling, in my opinion, that we normally call, in English, “love.” The “love” commanded for our enemies means to do “good to them” rather than seek revenge, but it has nothing to do with the “love” we feel, that “squishy” feeling I had leaning over my infant’s crib. It was not that loving commitment to my child that meant I would have thrown my body in front of an attacker, freely giving my life to save my child.

On a thread on Lovefraud some time back, a blogger (whose name I no longer remember) wrote that it is noble of us to throw ourselves in front of a bus to save our loved one, but not when the bus is being driven by the psychopath we are trying to save! I can’t think of a better analogy that this one.

In the end, I realized that no healthy love is truly “unconditional.” I also realized that boundaries are healthy, and that I needed to learn to set boundaries. I needed to protect myself from attacks, and that my fear or distrust of someone precludes me from having a relationship with that person. Fear precludes me from loving them.

For most of my life I tried to live up to the fantasy of “unconditional love” for those in my family, even those in my family who were psychopaths. It never felt right to me, but at the same time, I was committed to this stance because it was what I thought was “normal” and “expected.” When my family devalued me, when the “unconditional” love from them depended on controlling me, using me, abusing me, and then instilling fear into me, I finally “saw the light.” I realize now that real love is kind, love is caring, love is respectful, love is many good things, but it is never about control, never about punishment, never about deliberately inflicting pain or fear. Healthy love is never completely “unconditional.”

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Beautiful clarification. Since only God’s love is unconditional, I, as a Christian, can turn this P over to Him, and move on with my life, using the time I spent on this “Addictive Idol” to allow God to heal me and then move on to use my New Life to be helpful to others in a healthy way.
I realize that by camping out in anger, I am inadvertantly finding a way to hold on to the P w/out entirely letting go. I felt the anger for as long as I needed to, which for me was 3 weeks, and then moved on to allow God to lead me on the new path of joy and peace. The drama is over.
Yes, there is still the feeling of trauma occassionally, and when it comes I allow myself to feel it and process it.
I, too, was taught to forgive, but who I needed to forgive was myself for not having the knowledge of boundaries to protect myself from danger. As I look back, I can still remember the night I met him, the check in my spirit, but I didn’t know how to listen to it. I was so relieved to have someone so handsome pay attention to me. My ego took over, and the rest is history.
I do know there are gifts in the pain – in God’s economy nothing is wasted. I am wiser now, and learning to have a relationship with Sally. I have learned to listen to my gut. Sometimes it just says wait – like I have a letter I received from husband # 2 – I’m “sitting” on it. I have prayed for clarity as to what to do, and am doing nothing right now. There is no urgency to force solutions.
My son is living with me for a few more days. Last night his dad called him. He was in his bedroom on his cell, and when I realized who it was, I very calmly and quietly closed the bedroom door. I went back to the comedy on T.V., and was able to laugh out loud at what I was enjoying instead of trying to catch every drop of what was being said. I felt whole and free. What a miracle!!
Thanks so much, OxDrover, for the time you dedicate to assist in the healing of the wounded ones. I so appreciate how you have used your pain to help heal all of us.


Love is not about control, pain, and fear. That should be a mantra to us here. Actions speak louder than words. If something makes your gut clench or your skin crawl or the hairs stand up on the back of your neck, Maybe you should listen to your body and run. Several good friends in the past week have all said that my mind is brilliant but my heart is very stupid! Thanks lovefraud professors for giving me a much needed education in matters of the heart and self protection. I only wish that I had listened sooner before an innocent child was dragged across the US to become part of this mess. But ultimately, I have to believe that God is in control and that where ever we are whatever we are doing or enduring is exactly where we are supposed to be until our life lesson is learned.


Well said….Something I am still struggling with.
Two years ago when I saw the troubling personality traits in my son unfolding in puberty I had this HUGE FEAR FOR him. A deeper fear than I have ever known, EVER. Instictively I knew even when the troubles began that this was something “bigger” than any challenges I had ever faced. A voice inside of me kept saying OMG, OMG, OMG.

Things escalated quickly. In 2 short years the road has been very difficult. I did what I think most parents would do under the circumstances and became my childs advocate…..For mental health care, agencies, school teachers/officials, court petitions….Trying to get help. To intervine.

Today I feel like I live in a nightmare.

At the end of the day, what I have tried to do….None of it seems to matter.
It is still him and I. He is an out of control 16 year old with several issues going on and I am still his mother who hasn’t found the way to deal with what is in front of me.

The unconditional love that I started this journey is being challenged everyday. BECAUSE one thing has changed.

FEAR. I started this journey with fear in my heart FOR HIM.
Now I also FEAR OF HIM.

It is the most UN-NATURAL feeling I have ever felt. It goes against nature of the parent/child relationship and it goes against unconditional love.


Witsend, So sorry for what you are experiencing. Sending you a giant enveloping cyber hug and my prayers and best wishes are with you.

Oxy, thanks for the wonderful article and the great point. Love and fear are mutually exclusive.

That’s what did it for me with my ex. My survival instinct finally got some air time over the emotional noise of the addictive need for him to fix the pain he was creating. It said, stop it. Get out of it now. No matter what you promised, how great he used to be, what kind of person you are, or anything. Get out with whatever you can save of who you are and what you own, because the future isn’t going to get better.

Once, a long time ago, when I was complaining about someone to a therapist, she asked me, “Well, what can you trust about him?” I said, not much. She said, no really, what can you trust he will do? I said, I can trust that he’ll do short-sighted, self-destructive things and I can trust that he doesn’t have or want a clue about how I feel.”

Great, she smiled at me. Now, there will be no surprises.


Welcome everyone! It is becoming very difficult to keep up with everyone and the converstions going on! AND that is a wonderfull Thing because that means that the information is getting out to alot of folks ! And that means Alot of Healing is going On!
OxD your #2 cause I havta Put Mrs Anderson at The #1 spot! And I cannot Thank Her enough for LF! Could we start a list of SURVIVORS? Patrons of The Cause! I know I have earned my masters in this field! The Pain and tortue and long suffering, The Hours of reaserch, The hours of reading! It has all been worth every second! Thank You each and everyone I don’t think I would have made it , If it where not for the Love and Kindness and understanding of a group of people like yourselves! Peace

Ox Drover

Thanks, guys.

Witsend, because I am ACCUSTOMED to doing what I think is RIGHT, even if I am SCARED CHITLESS, which believe, I know you KNOW HOW SCARED CHITLESS I WAS—at the time my son was 16-17 I was TERRIFIED my worst night mare would come true and my son would ruin his life, I felt I HAD to find SOME WAY to “fix” him….make him care what he was doing, see what he was doing, and like you—THERE WAS NOTHING I COULD DO. I hit road block after road block, and if it looked like I had found something, HE WOULD RUIN IT, GET WORSE.

Even after he was arrested for murder in 1991, at age 20, I still hoped there was something that could “fix” him….his life that HE HAD MADE WITH HIS TWO LITTLE HANDS AND HIS SELF DETERMINATION.

It was difficult for me to accept that I CANNOT CONTROL OTHERS. I can suggest, I can sanction, I can praise or I can punish, but I can NOT CONTROL. If someone is deterimined to do what they are determined to do and will not be swayed by CARING WHAT YOU THINK OR FEEL then you have NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THAT YOU CANNOT MOTIVATE THEM AGAINST THEIR WILL.

Finally FEAR, genuine fear for my life, made me realize that my “fears” and “concern” and even my “love” for him were FUTILE. Eventually, fear OF him overcame my love FOR him.

I know that is difficult to digest, and it sits pretty heavy on our stomachs even after we have swallowed it. God bless you in your journey. (((hugs)))

Ox Drover


I think we posted over each other, so I didn’t see your post until now. Thank you so much for your commendation as me being “#2” to Donna, but let me tell you, and I am not just “being humble” either, as John the Baptist said about Jesus, “I am not worthy to untie his shoes” and I feel that way sincerely about Donna! Her ability and work to put LF together is something I would never even have thought about much less been able to do, and LF is what has BEEN THERE for all of us. I really think I owe my sanity if not my very life to LF, and to Donna. If I can “pass on” some of the thoughts, insights, and knowledge that I got from HERE, to people who are just starting on this terrible rough road to healing, I think it is little enough to do to invest my time in it.

Many of us here at LF have been SO very blessed by being here for a while so that we can get our feet back under us, and if we don’t, of ALL PEOPLE, have compassion and caring to reach out to others who are later to get on the road that is so difficult, so painful, how on God’s green earth could we TAKE and NOT GIVE BACK to the extent of our abilities?

I’m a LONG way from being the Oxy that I WANT TO BE, as wise as I want to be, as strong as I want to be, and I know that I have my “blind spots” just as others do. I am not willing to QUIT and think that “every thing is lovely, I’m safe, I’m healed” because EVERY BLASTED TIME I have done that in the past, a NEW PSYCHOPATH reared his or her ugly head to bite me in the ARSE!

I am finally, I think, getting to the point in this journey that I can SEE that it is a journey and that I must never ever get so complacent that I think I am 100% safe, or that I know everything there is to know about psychpaths or about myself! The ONLY time I DID “know everything” was when I was a teenager, since then I have continually gotten to where I realize that I not only don’t know all the ANSWERS, I don’t even know all the flipping QUESTIONS!!! LOL (((hugs))) and thanks again!.


This is all difficult to digest when it is your child in question.
It makes many of the hard choices that I have made in my lifetime trivial by comparison.

I have changed so much since this initially began. What I thought important in the begining of his sophmore year, such as keep him in school, seems almost trivial, where we are at at now. He goes to school but doesn’t perform there. He sleeps. School right now almost seems to be the least of his problems.

I have a hard time with certain things. Dealing with some of these people just ZAPS the energy right out of me. Like today,
This “high risk” counscelor (at school) when she called among other things said I had to get him to take his medication. And I asked her how am I suppose to do that? HE REFUSES.

Shove it down his throat? LADY YOU COME HERE AND HOLD HIM DOWN and I will shove it down his throat. Is what I thought to myself. And I’m pretty sure even then he would spit them into my face.

HER JOB, she told me this, I ain’t judging…Is to find MOTIVATION to help “at risk” (failing) kids to get better grades. She admitted to me how unmotivated he was. That he simply does NOT care that he is flunking. So she is not “going there” with him right now because he REFUSES.

She is a doctor. She has letters after her name. She had a practice. Yet SHE CAN’T do her job of motivating him to do better at school (I UNDERSTAND THIS PERFECTLY because I live with him)

YET, she throws it back into my lap of I have to get him to take his meds. He is not MOTIVATED to take them anymore than he is motivated to participate at school. He has NOTHING wrong with him in HIS opinion to take medications.

Why can’t she understand that if she can’t do her job and she is a DOCTOR, I am less qualified than she is…..I have already admitted I can’t get him to do anything.

If I was effectively parenting my son he wouldn’t be in her OFFICE TO BEGIN WITH!!! I (or someone before her ) would have already motivated him to do better. She is like the “last ditch” effort the school takes with these kids.

I know in my heart that there comes the time when I will just have to let him go. There are days, more and more now, where that day of letting him go (and I mean GO as in OUT the door) seems MUCH sooner than later. I can’t continue to live like this. Letting him go at 16 isn’t easy…So I am still trying to get him help.

The first time he DOES DO what the court system, mental health system and everyone else seems to deem necessary for him to be “eligible for REAL help” is break the law or get busted for something. Right now at 16 years old they are going to call (guess who) me, when he does break the law.

I have been calling” THEM” for months now with no avail. But I get the distinct feeling that this could change. If intervention doesn’t happen I will be getting the call from them. The TABLES will turn.

Right now my option is to live with him or kick him out. At 16 I don’t see kicking him out as an option. (YET) I have appealed to the juvenile courts for the incorrigibility. They declined him a probation officer or a detention stay because AGAIN he hasn’t broken the law or run away from home. I recieved this call today.

So for now it is what it is. He is still eligible for the program for kids & parents. Parenting with Love & Limits. If I can get him to attend, at least it’s something….It’s going to be a LONG summer.


Dear Oxy, thank you so much! Very beautifully put as always about love and fear and how they are connected and what we can do about it. I can so relate to it, having been shame- and fearful my whole life in the one or other form, and constantly trying to “overcome” it by putting me in horrendous situations where NORMALLY people are having BIG fears. (telling people they are going to die of cancer for instance, doing CPR, being in the ER). I had always feared my mother (N) and my father (P) not knowing why, since I was a little girl, and wanted to overcome this, I guess. Now I start “getting it” in this respect. I am most greatful to all of you great people at LF!

I also can relate to Good Grief; it is now about a year ago I was breaking free from “my” X, and I was constantly on a daily basis calling my sister instead of calling HIM. (we called this phone calls “lovesick anonymous helpline”). It lasted a month, which should be over in a few days for good grief. Obsessing helps! It is getting boring after long ruminating, as the chewing gum loses its flavor. At least as long you stay NC! Don’t put in a new Chewing gum by making any attempt of contact. It is NOT helpful! (I have been there two times after NC for 5 months each. The contacts ripped off all the healing and I got to dress fresh wounds in my soul al over again.) But I already can sense some dawn between the lines in your posts, Good Grief. Take care!


Dearest Oxy,

So very well said! Because I have not had the experiences youve had, the level, the sheer disregard for my life by a family member, and fear of god within me, its hard for me to “go there”…

You know my situation with my mom, such a MUCH DIFFERENT experience, so perhaps thats where I find the presence of unconditional love being possible on a much different level….

I believe with all of my heart that sexually abused victims, and victims of heinous crimes and attempts on their lives and just so much victimization in ones life by a family member or spouse enables one to draw the line with giving/having unconditional love…And if i ever embarked upon “fear” from a family member or sexual abuse or physical abuse may ability to give my UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WOULD STOP THERE…THERE ARE BOUNDARIES WITH THAT TYPE OF LOVE TOO…

I have a lot of confusion with what I call the ability to love with understanding from a distance….from a place of separation…and never being together again…never seeing that person again…(but solely for my own healing purpose I can find a peaceful place that says love exists in general for the greater cause of my personal internal peace -BUT NOT FOR THAT PERSON TO BE IN MY LIFE OR A PART OF MY LIFE – due to mental illness, or bad choices, or evil ways)

Oh my, I hope this is being expressed with the intention I am trying for it to be… I have not walked in path of FEAR for my life, or violation of my being physically…so I am unable to speak from that perspective…

For me personally, I feel a form of unconditional love is attainable on so many levels in my life…up to an including having to leave a persons life or protect mine. It gives me a sense of peace once Ive made the choice to not be in the presence of someones toxic ways, to have an ability to say my form of unconditional love means I protect myself while accepting you cannot be in my life, a part of my life any longer…


Thankyou from the bottom of my heart for yet another truly brilliant explanation of “unconditional love”. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said and I still believe that God sent you as my angel of Grace.
You will be happy to know that when I woke this morning, (its 7.00 am), all my revenge thoughts for the ex P had subsided. I used to say that they had vanished, but I know now, that they will return at an unexpected moment. This time they returned intensely for three full days and nights.
It was only that I could express the rage and resentments and joke about them (in a serious way) and identify with other survivors that I could process it all so quickly. At no time would I have driven over to his whereabouts to kill him or hurt him. But I was serious in my “future planning”. i.e. as “serious” as one can be when you are telling everyone in sight and on the worldwide internet of your feelings of homicidal rage. Matt helped me a lot by pointing out that the only thing that would hurt my ex P in truth, would for him to be financially destitute. Once I realised that that was the truth I could let it go.
Last night I dreamt (it seemed to go all night as I kept waking up), that I told my daughter everything I thought and felt about her. I was yelling at her, which I never do in real life. In the dream she just kept putting the ipod in her ears and trying to turn my youngest against me. She was fairly successful in the dream, of turning him against me. I woke up exhausted because the dream seemed to go on and on for the whole night.
I have been trying not to deal with her in my mind and feelings. I don’t feel revenge towards her because I am more afraid of what she will do in the future, and because I too did the “unconditional love thing” with my children.
I always did it with my children and my intimate partner. I stopped doing it to my mother when she sat in her wheelchair one day, when I was about fouty, in front of me yelling, “help help, shes trying to rob me! “and rocking her wheelchair trying to tip it up.She was having trouble controlling me, trying to make me stay for the day to do whatever she wanted me to again. When people came running, I left. I knew she would carry the act/story on to its bitter end as I had seen similar acts a million times in my life, (usually acted out to enrage my father against me). I didn’t return for ten years as I feared her trying to set me up.
I had stopped loving my father when he used to bash me badly as a child. But my mother had me completely guilty and enmeshed from 5 years on. Although everynight from five years old until when I left home I payed for her death.
I stopped loving my violent psychopath husband (of 14 years) after he tried to murder me. He tried to murder me because I found out he had murdered another woman. I didn’t leave straight away or he would have killed me for sure. I waited until he was on one of his highs ( he was NOT an alcoholic or addict). I waited until he had a huge amount of narcisstic supply coming from everywhere, so that I knew he thought it would be great to get rid of me and the kids. I moved interstate I made sure I was never alone for a few years. Until the next p.
I fear my last “ex P dentist/BF”. I know that when he gets sick or bored with his current circumstances he will try to destroy me again one way or the other. Probably through legal abuse as he knows that is what I fear the most. I would rather fight a P monster physically than to have to go through what I did with the solicitor. Legal abuse is sustained and devastating. With no-one ever believing me except my son, because he was there. And the solicitor got away with it. Mainly because of the corrupt judges and police and many enablers on his wages list. Money doesn’t shout, it screams.
The only solace I got was having my name cleared so I have no record. The solicitor was never charged and I didn’t get a dime back. I would rather choose death than what I went through with the P solicitor. I stopped wanting to kill the solicitor around five years after the fact.
I don’t hold any revenge thoughts for my P daughter. Yet. Only fear.
My mother went to hospital two days ago. She is now 84. The longest living paraplegic in Ausralia! The last time I saw her was Mothers Day. I spoke to her on the phone just before she went in, when she told me again how wonderful my P brother is and what huge amounts she has given him. (They are both proud of never having given me anything).
So today is a new day. The revenge has subsided and I have mostly peace in my heart with a bit too much fear.
Thankyou again Oxy, you are amazing.



I would go ahead and have the sit down TALK! About how it’s going to be in Your House! (Not that you have not already done this)

Just some ideas!

1. If he is not going to Live up to his potential in school!
Get a Job!
Pay rent
pay for food
pay for laundry + cleaning

There is NO Free ride! Anymore! You either do what you are asked to do ; meds, school,home


Find somwhere else to LIVE!

There is no point in waiting another two years, He should be helping you If He’s not Throw his butt to the curb. The cold Hard Facts of Life will make or brake Him.

I realize it’s easyer to say it than to do it! Peace be with you

Ox Drover

Dear LearnED,

There is a big difference in “un-conditionally loving” a person who is mentally ill, or mentally retarded and DOES not have control over their behavior or emotions…just like the example I gave of my two-year old dumping the can of fish food into the aquarium TWICE in one week. If he was 22 years old and had the mind of a two year old I could still not be “mad” at him…I might not even be able to keep him in my home for his sake or my own I might have to put him into an institution if that was the case, but I would NOT stop loving him. It is when a person has COMPLETE conscious decision to harm you and choses to do so, that person’s decisions and the fear they induce in me will keep me from “loving” them any more. If that makes any sense to you.

Your situation with your mother, I can definitely understand it, she was truly mentally ill, not disordered. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I am so grateful to God that you got a chance to be with her there at the end and that you could both find peace in that. that was a miracle for sure! A wonderful friend of mine had brain cancer and they operated on him to take out as much as they could and for six months he was the most hateful person you could imagine, I did NOT quit loving him becasuse I knew that was NOT “him”–it was the disease in his brain. Odd thing, too, two weeks before his death from the brain cancer, his mind came back to him, clear as a bell, and he got to say goodbye to his family and friends in his right mind. that was a wonderful gift from God to all of us! Especially to his family who didn’t have to remember him “raving” at them.

It isn’t when someone is unable to control their behavior that I have a problem, it is when they have a choice, and choose to do waht they KNOW is wrong and abusive.


What you say “kick him to the curb” is not only easier said than done…

BUT in the state I live in, it is pretty difficult to do. I am legally responsible for him until age 18.

Emancipation in my state is in effect for the minor and NOT parents. He has to emancipate me, not the other way around.

Even though at 17 he could be tried as an adult for some crimes, I am legally RESPONSIBLE for him until the age of 18 years old including where he lives. That responsibility ALSO INCLUDES all fees incurred for damages as well as court fees, lawyers etc if he does break the law…..

I have already been desperate enough to look this stuff up. Thinking I need to know some of this information.

Also I still do struggle on a DAILY basis, NOT knowing if my kid suffers from having a Personality Disorder, Bipolar, PTSD, Depression, or a combination of….(my personal opinion is he’s a combo)

If he’s Bipolar and I kick him to the curb, WHAT exactly are the hard knocks of life going to teach him at 16 years old?

And if he was your 16 yr old son & Bipolar would you HONESTLY be doing what you are suggesting I do? I know, most parents think if he WERE MY kid, he wouldn’t be acting this way.

But then again most parents don’t have a kid that WAS tramatized at not yet 4 years old either. AND I don’t use that as an excuse, but it certainly can be part of the reason.

TRUST ME, I have days that I am angry, when he is verbally abusive, and I would like to kick him to the curb. And the next day I might have a much different emotion…Such as he is sick. He needs medication.


Dearest Oxy,

I hesitated with that post…I didnt want it to be ill-received…

It is personal battle I have within…unconditional love…. the beauty of it and the danger of it…

I absolutely understand exactly the difference…and admire and commend you on your ability to not only articluate it…but do so in such a way that one understands a mothers worse nightmare.. not being able to unconditionally love her child…actually be the one and only thing that could save her OWN life from the mercy of her sons “evil actions” toward her…

And I hope I explained that I too would draw the line with unconditionally loving anyone I fear… AND I MADE AN ERROR in continuing to unconditionally loving a man (coupled with not having any of my self-respect, self-trust, self-worth on board) who didnt have my best interest in mind… so maybe for me its realizing that in order to unconditionally love someone I first must have my self-everything preserved…and by doing so…the ones I can unconditionally love will be the ones who respect me – I DONT KNOW – THIS IS A TOUGH ONE FOR ME… Ive always felt unconditional love is one of lives greatest joys…but you’ve made me think about where the line is drawn…when…etc.

Separate from your situation….and the way you view unconditional love for yourself and the way others do….I find myself struggling with it.

Just being open and honest…Ill work through it…and SO apppreciate and knew you would understand where I was coming from. Thank you for your response…and most of all THANK YOU FOR THIS ARTICLE OXY!!!! xo


Hey, Kathy:

Any word yet on when you’ll be visiting my fair city?

Ox Drover

Dear LearnED,

Of course I understand your being ambivalent about it, I am/was too for so long. In the middle of all of this “mess” though, I started to have somewhat of a “spiritual awakening.” That was what made me come to the conclusions I did FOR ME. I know not everyone may agree, and that is perfectly OK with me. But FOR ME, I started to study the word “love” as it is in hte Bible, like “love your enemies” etc. What did/does that mean? Well, many languages have more than ONE WORD for “love” where English has only one word.

In English I might say “I love my dog” or “I love my child” or “I love ice cream” but those words “love” do NOT mean the same thing.

I studied with several different Christian ministers of different faiths who were well educated in the languages of the Bible and all agreed on that, that the English word translated “love” in the Bible has different meanings in different places. “Love” your enemies, does NOT mean have a “squishy feeling” for them, as s ome might maintain, but it means to “do good to them” rather than retaliate and seek revenge as most people in that age would have done. It does NOT mean you have to have an emotional bond to them as you would to your child.

So when I say that I no longer “love” the people I fear, and that includes my son and my egg donor, it means that I no longer have that EMOTIONAL BOND to them, and I hold them RESPONSIBLE for their bad actions. I have worked hard to “forgive them” and that too, was a concept that I had trouble with. My egg donor had taught me that “forgiveness” mean that I had to FORGET about the betrayals, and PRETEND that none of the evil things they had jdone and would do again, had happened. I also studied on the meaning for me of the word “forgiveness” and I came to the conclusion it means to “get the bitterness out of my heart” not that I should pretend none of it happened or trust them again, or have a relationship with them.

So my spiritual awakening really was about semantics and the definitions of the words that went with the actions and emotions involved with “love” and “forgiveness” etc.

Plus, who is “accountable” for their actions? Of course a person who was severely mentally ill I would not hold “accountable” for their actons, or even be angry about what they did, though I might try to prevent them harming me. The person who is mentally retarded or very young is NOT in my mind “accountable” for their actions, but the person who is of age to know right from wrong, good from bad, and who deliberately decides to hurt someone for the pleasure of it??? Well, you know the anwser to that.

I had tried to GIVE unconditional emotional love and committment to several people who had NO love of any kind for me, and I realized that I was more than a little mistaken in thinking I could do this, or that it was even a good thing to try to do. For ME, I decided I could not be emotionally connected by “love” (meaning caring) for these people, yet even though they are my enemies (by their choice) I will “love them” in that I am not going to seek to do them harm, but neither will I allow them to harm me.

Each of us I think has to come to their own Unique spiritual grasp of what these concepts mean for themselves. That fact that you are thinking about these concepts, in my opinion, puts you head and shoulders above most people on a spiritual path! ((((hugs))))) xoxox


I think you don’t realize how well YOU EXPLAINED that! I believe there IS what you call the ability to love with understanding from a place of distance. From a place of seperation. How you were able to articulate it so well, I don’t know cause it is hard to understand.

I would have never been able to explain it as you did but I believe that is how I loved my father once I was an adult.

The distance wasn’t necessarily “miles” but rather the distance I kept my heart. That disfunction of old family wounds….I loved him but it was certainly different than my love for my mother. A love with reservations? I’m not sure…

I think the human mind is quite complex. And we all do what we need to to survive. Could be how we love somebody or how we survive a crisis in our lives.

The young lady that was on Oprah last week that shot her father. He had molested/raped her for years and she did 18 years for murder and recently released from prison.

She said something VERY interesting. After her father molested her….Growing up she thought of him the entire time of being as 2 seperate entities. One, was her father that she loved and adored since she was a tiny child. And the other was this awful vile rapist.
She actually CHOSE to live with him when her parents divorced. He had convinced her that her mother KNEW about the molestation/rape so she hated her mother all those years.

Her way of survival was to compartmentalize this in her brain as two SEPERATE people. Amazing what the mind can do to get through such a horrible time in her young life.




Why are these posts not posting?

Try again.


I like your idea of justice – turn him in and give out his address -let them get to him. I hope to do the same someday soon.

We filed a motion to show cause to stop NSH from selling the shore house and anything else. today – hopefully he will be forced to pay for it since he is 100 % wrong in his dealings.

So he has turned up the heat on me by taking the kids unannounced………gotta love him ….such a child.

He went to school and took son out to lunch and tried coaxing my daughter out after school. Now this is not the worst thing by any means …but I know by now it is his way of establishing his control – he only does this when pissed – not to see the kids.


Oxy said

“For ME, I decided I could not be emotionally connected by “love” (meaning caring) for these people, yet even though they are my enemies (by their choice) I will “love them” in that I am not going to seek to do them harm, but neither will I allow them to harm me.

Thats what I was trying to say!!!!

Just something about that in our souls/spirits…thats is one of the most beautiful places to be in life…in my opinion..the ability to find that place within even when severed from them… a rare form of unconditional love (or whatever that level can be termed)…one that doesnt equate to being with them…loving them at all costs…caring…remaining in their lives… but a place where we have moved on peace/love/spirit in our own lives for ourselves and others… AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT PLACE TO GET TO AND BE WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES…

Thanks again Oxy…

And Witsend…Wow, I wasnt sure how to express that…but here at LF I really feel so safe and open to being able to share what crosses my mind…at times way off base and at others hopefully adding meaning on our journies…but I appreciate and cherish being able to share my thoughts and bounce them off such amazing people and gain infinite insight and wisdom and different perspectives that I otherwise would not have in my life…. Thank you.. I like how you said it “the distance I kept in my heart…. it is as Oxy said avery individual unique spiritual grasp of what these concepts mean for everyone… so glad I could mention my struggles with grasping even my own!


“I had always thought my loyalty and commitment to my family members and friends was total and unconditional. When I started to experience true fear of some of these people, it made me realize that the only unconditional love in the universe is God’s.”

Who do we put the blame on us?
Our caretakers or another’s?

I believe both are in a way are correct. One is a belief that is taught in a traditional of self family expectation and environmental rewards and that which was exposed us by our mentors and teachers. That which we believed in we become that is who we are and have an belief in self. For a quote that would be “I am because I think I am”

What can we expect other then contradiction? This contradiction starts with self but also ends with self. We had a belief held true to oneself from church community and social interaction that which is supported in a belief system of one’s self and others.

This is learned behavior which is also that which we came to relayed on….

So I ask you….

Do we blame our teaching?
Do we blame those put in place of our caretakers?
Do we blame self?

Whenever we blame anyone we take from self.
Blame it’s self is and only can be put fore in our beliefs our hearts and desires

We might have come from an environment
That didn’t allow free self and personal power
But we don’t have to stay there….

Blame it’s self isn’t worth the effort, but an investment in self does. With both positive and negative resilience.


I am so glad I am past that revenge feeling. I don’t even wish him bad things, but I like to talk here about what he did and how it changed me, I think for the better, time will tell. Just trying to move on – good article Oxy.


“I am so glad I am past that revenge feeling”

Thank you so much for this inspiration because whenever we moved from this emotional need for revenge we start to move into one’s own self and personal power. No longer do we need “an ear for an ear”..

We see and know only need our own personal power and acknowledgement of self. We then accept that which we understand and then leave that which we can’t understand. We can only take self and hold it accountable for our actions. We can understand not only the problem of those we loved but also accept love for who we will love and others that in time will be loved.

Those that wish to destroy “self”.


They failed only because they destroy themselves and not those they wished to destroyed.

Why?, only because we are who we are..
Today tomorrow and for all those that know us.
They are whom others want them to be.
external to all expectation
Shallow to others and self.
Changeable but fixed
Unknown but liked
Loved but will never understand love..



I apologize for being so ruthless!

Here in lies the irony of the system! That you must wait till he breaks a law for you to get the assistance that you need! And when that happens You still won’t get the kind of help this kid needs and is screeming out for!
There is NO CORRECTIONS going on at the Corrections department or jail or Prision! Only the education of the street and life behind bars. In a cage an animal is either broken or transformed into a monster! Prisions breed HATE!

A scared straight program might be some help! But I think after reading your thoughts it is going to get worse before it gets better!
One of the things I learned about my Psycopath was when to leave! When I could get no help from authorities or anyone else , I knew that by just leaving I at least could protect my self and allow the situation to diffuse or cool off ! When I removed myself from the Malay! He had nothing to do except destroy the house and make a total fool of himself!

Please be safe and You are in my Prayers! Peace be with you!


“they are whom others want them to be. external to all expectation Shallow to others and self. Changeable but fixed Unknown but liked. Loved but will never understand love” this is so true, so very sad, so profound a description…


One thing I havn’t really understood was the children of my ex psychopath. He had a 21 year old alcoholic son that he was grooming to be a psychopath, “go f*ck and dump em”, he would say to his son about all the different girls he brought home regularly. “I am dad, I am” the son would whine. I thought they were both joking! DUH!!
But it was his two adult daughters that were the worst. The oldest one was like his girlfriend. I am sure she was a psychopath too. She called him incessantly when she knew I was there. Both the daughters hated me and wanted him to get rid of me. The younger one was violent and assaulted me, while I was sleeping in bed next to him. She threw crockery (my grandmothers heirlooms) at my head and smashed them on the wall ( I ducked). She threw his boots at my head. Eventually she hit me around the head with her fist.
She was screaming, “get out you c**t!! Get her out dad!! How could you dad?? After our talk, she is using you dad, get her out!!”. She was in an insane rage and hysterical.She was not on drugs or alcohol. I have no idea what her mental diagnosis is. I know she was on anti depressants. He eventually took her into the kitchen, ( I didn’t hear what he said to her). Then he rang his ex wife and told her to “deal with it”. She left the house yelling at me still.
He had wanted his three kids to move out of his home. He used me as an excuse, to get them out.
I lay awake in the bed the whole night while, he slept. I was waiting for her to return or for the older psychopath up the hallway (her older sister) to sneak in and harm me.
The whole time I was with him he set them against me. I still don’t understand what happened and why.
Why were the girls like that towards me? Why did he want them to hate me? Why was his relationship with his oldest daughter like a girlfriend? (she had a drug addict boyfriend of her own). Why did the younger one hate me so much?? I had only ever been nice to them!!
The alcoholic son was often sent into my cupboards to check what was in them. I heard them sending him in. The older daughter threw all of my clothes out of my drawers one night. They treated me like AI was a pot plant or they abused me. He used to say, “if you don’t get on with my daughters then we can’t have a relationship”. Then he would tell the daughters that I was mentally ill!
I am doing my head in tonight over all this. I used to write letters to God when I was with him, to help me make peace with his daughters. The exP would go through my things and when he saw it, he would say, When did you write this honey?” Then he would take it. I don’t know what he did with it.
I remember the older P daughter woke us up one night at 1.00 am. She was crying because her alcoholic brother had drunk her 3 bottles of beer. She was 28!!!
I am so glad that God and my son, pulled me out of that situation. I am not glad I got ripped off because I am suffering badly now, so is my son. But in retrospect, I was lucky it wasn’t much worse.
The two girls live together now with their druggie boyfriends and my dog. Their p father pays for most things,well he used to. But never for me. I am still resentful about that. But like i said, I was lucky it wasn’t worse.
Although it did get worse when they all legally abused me, after we split up. When I tried to get a restraining order on the younger daughter, they fought it and she won. They all lied. So I have a restraining order that i don’t go near them! And She assaulted me!!
You know, talking about this is helping me. I sooo don’t want to be with them now! that is so awesome!! And I don’t want to take revenge because I know that THAT IS WHAT HE WANTS ME TO DO!!!
Doing nothing is my best revenge. Then one day, he won’t be in my head space. None of them will!!


Although, it would be great if the insurance and the tax people got him.


I can’t help but wonder what happened next, after I went. You know, I know he has anew victim girlfriend. But do they just go on like this? Will there be any rock bottoms in any of their lives and will they ever get caught out?? Or will they all just saunter on, living a life of luxury and conning more and more people?
I wonder what happens to them all….



Regarding your S trying to gain control by taking the kids out of school, I think you can regain control by saying to him “I think we can agree on the importance of our children getting educated. So, instead of taking them out of school, why don’t we determine a mutually agreed upon time so you can spend time with them?”

Taking this approach you grab back control and he’ll look like an idiot disrupting the kid’s school day by taking them out for something as silly as a lunch (benefit when you’re in court!).

Ox Drover

Dear Tilly,

I am so sorry that you went through all of this, but you know, I can almost guarentee that after the “honeymoon” stage with his new GF, which we know won’t last long, it never does with this kind, SHE IS LIVING THE SAME HELL YOU DID!

Of course I can know exactly what you are thinking by what you wrote, but it SOUNDS TO ME lilke you have had an “ah ha” moment.

His comments about you “having to get on with his kids” or NO RELATIONSHIP was his declaration that you would have to ENDURE THEIR ABUSE OR GET OUT. Simple as that. Which also said (I love “translating” their comments LOL) “Look I don’t give a rat’s behind about you, my kids are monsters but I don’t care unless they attack ME, so just shut up, I don’t care what they do to you.”

Obviously the girl(s) were “jealous” of you because he was showing you attention (even negative attention) that THEY WANTED. they had obviously been “trained” this way as well. I don’t doubt at all that they were psychopathic (genetics + environment) but it also kept the DRAMA that he seemed to like going on.

I am so glad for you that you are out of this situation now and starting to see the “light” about what all was going on. that was the big thing for me, I kept letting myself get into P-relationships (or stay there) because I kept thinking that if I was good enough, gave enough “unconditional love” that it would make things better—IT NEVER DOES. The more you give, the MORE they DEMAND. It is never enough.

I am now starting to listen to myself (NOVEL CONCEPT!) LOL and when I am around someone who is constantly irritating me or makes my stress level rise, I start taking an “inventory” of that relationship. First off, what positive things am I getting out of that relationship (like feeling good about them and GOOD ABOUT MYSELF?) What stressfull things am I getting out of it (contstant stressful feelings, irritation, anger, feeling “put upon” or demanded from?) Many times I find that this person is just using me for a sounding board for their own DRAMA with someone else, or trying to TRIANGLE me into the problem, which is NOT my problem.

Go back here and read about the TRIANGLE. It is a very interesting concept and an EASY one to grasp and to use as a MEASURING STICK for relationships. Once you get the concepts of the triangle of VICTIM-PERSECUTOR-RESCUER, you can see that this is a game of DYSFUNCTUIONAL MUSICAL CHAIRS.
A says he was abused by B (A is the “victim” and B is the
“persecutor” andusually they are wanting you to jump in and assume the role of the RESCUER. If you do jump into this “role” and start telling them that you will fix it all and that you will :”rescue” them from B, before long, they get mad at you because you have now assumed the role of PERSECUTOR because they didn’t like the way YOU FIXED it.

Here is a short example. A is a drunk, he goes down and gets drunk on pay day and spends all his money. He comes home and his wife (B) starts berating him for spending the rent money on booze. So at that MOMENT she is the persecutor and he is the victim. He gets an ear full and slaps her, so they have changed roles, he is now the Persecutor and she the victim. She calls the cops and the cop comes in and arrests him (the cop is the rescuer). the next day the wife calls the husband’s boss and lies to him and says her husband is sick and can’t come to work (she is now the rescuer and husband the victim since the last rescuer, the cop, arrested him and put him in jail and became the persecutor) so oshe hocks her wedding ring, bails him out of jail, sh eis still rescuing her husband, but when she gets home, she starts to berate him again (now she is the persecutor) and he gets an ear full againi and slaps her (now he is the persecutor and she the victim) so she calls the cops to RESCUE HER, and on and on, just like musical chairs. Each person involved assumes ALL the roles at some point, or they may have a FAVORITE role and prefer that role, but usually they will assume on a regular basis at least two of the roles, and most times all three.

The ONLY way I know of to get out of this musical chair game is to NOT PLAY THE RESCUER, VICTIM, OR PERSECUTOR. NONE of the roles, though they will try desperately to hook you in.

That is why, I think, the Ps are so versitile in their “sweetness” and light flilp flops from the rages. In order to play this game you have to “pretend” that none of the past bad behavior has happened. That is also why No Contact throws them for a loop because you won’t get back into the game. they will try al lpositions to hook you back, being sweet one day “Oh, baby I miss you” to the “if you don’t come back to me I will make your life hell” If lthey can’t charm you they try to piss you off so you will react in anger if no o ther way because for them ANY ROLE IN THE TRIANGLE IS BETTER THAN BEING IGNORED.

After we all went NC with my P-son, his letters to my mother trying to get her to contact him showed “sweetness” if that didn’t work, it was “anger” and if that didn’t work it was “pity” and then RINSE AND REPEAT, until finally she caved in and got backk into his game—-he is the “victim” and I am the “persecutor” and she must “rescue him” from me. Of course, he will keep this up as long as she will “play” and of course SEND HIM MONEY!

Ox Drover

Matt and newlife,

Matt, on this one I disagree with you a BIT–I think he did it to pith her off, so what I would suggest is to NOT react TO HIM. He knew she would not like it, so he predicted that she would respond with anger, NOT responding at all will be NOT TAKING HIS BAIT, however, that said,

Keep a record of his TAKING THEM OUT OF SCHOOL so that it can be brought up in court.

The Ps frequently do things they KNOW will tick you off just to get you to react, so no matter what he does like that (petty stuff) just don’t react at all, don’t even a ct like you noticed he did it. If it is dangerous or really BAD however, REACT ONLY VIA ATTORNEY, no direct discussion at all.

Discussing ANYTHING with these people is a lose-lose situation, because if nothing else it gives them”supply” cause they love to pith you off!


Dearest Oxy,
I think I made today a major step in my recovery, thanks to you and your wonderful post and the many very helpful posters who did respond to it! Lots of food for thought. We have a holiday in Europe (Ascension day), and I was sitting on my balcony preparing a talk, but was often thinking about this post.

“”Love styles are models of how people love, originally developed by John Lee. He identified six basic love theories—also known as “colors” of love—that people use in their interpersonal relationships:
• Eros ”“ a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
• Ludus ”“ a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest
• Storge ”“ an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity
• Pragma ”“ love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
• Mania ”“ highly volatile love; obsession; fueled by low self-esteem
• Agape ”“ selfless altruistic love; spiritual; motherly love (from Wikipedia)—

I was afraid of my parents (mother N, father P) and everybody else because I DID try my very best to love them all unconditionally and put myself behind and obeyed and did all the requirements “the scripture” says (love thy father and mother so you will be served well, according to the ten commands my mother often cited, by the way). In the above categories a mixture between Agape and Mania is the closest.

But MY PARENTS DID NOT LOVE ME UNCONDITIONALLY BACK!!! I was constantly afraid of not fulfilling THEIR conditions without having ANY conditions myself (as a child, no wonder!). It was like serving a contract with ever changing conditions with me having no saying in these matters. I was NOT A BOY, firstly, VERY BAD FOR ME!!! I could not trust them at all, nor myself.

I tried to overcome this general everything perpetrating fear by desensitizing myself and by exposing myself to fear bearing situations, but the fear grew bigger. The first time I was not afraid at all was when I was in the honeymoon phase with the X-P/N, because HE WAS MIRRORING MY UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR HIM BACK TO ME. It was so wonderful, heavenly, I could cry when I think back. With the D&D the fear returned. It was the most horrendous thing I ever experienced.

Now I tend to think as you do that all interaction with other living creatures is bound to a kind of unspoken “Contract” with certain rules and terms. You can’t climb into a bear cage, and you have to behave in a certain way not to embarrass other people (I refer to Kant’s Categorical Imperative as my guidance). The only one I try to love unconditionally is myself, not in a narcissistic way but in a healthy loving way, being the same time benevolent AND critical towards myself educating the “inner child”, simply without a “BUT”.

Being a grown up now, I should be able to negotiate the “terms and Conditions” of any interaction, which is crucial. And when the terms and conditions of these contracts are violated, then there will be consequences. Bringing a dash of “Pragma” into it. Thanks Oxy, you made my day!!!!



Thankyou so much for your support and heartfelt words.
My P daughter, who has been overseas for a few years, (on my money), is returning at the end of June. Since I went NC she has been hounding my younger son. She rang him on mothers day to find out what I was doing etc. I am more afraid of her using him and turning him away from me than anything else. He is such a gentle, loving soul. His girlfriend is a cluster B personality, and i have had some run ins with her. I explained to him how I had been too needy when he was growing up and therefore he must be careful not to attract needy girlfriends. I had to stop both these conversations ( I.E. the one about his sister and the one about his girlfriend), because it was having the reverse effect. So until he sees it first hand with his sister he wont listen. He is already enmeshed with his girlfriend (her mother is a P), so I am praying that he eventually gets out of that relationship in one piece. I have detached (as much as I can), from his girlfriend’s and their doomed relationship because it is too painful to watch. Fortunately the girlfriend and her mother know that I am onto them, as I let them have it one day, verbally full blast, I told them I knew they were just using my son and I named it, if you know what I mean. So they know I am no walkover.
I am going to make sure his P sister,m (my daughter), doesn’t destroy us, as I know she will have a real good go at it when she returns. And I am all FOR B and E ( like your son with the key),to find out what their latest plot to destroy us is. Otherwise its lay down and die, isn’t it!
When Libelle says ” mania is volatile love, obsession; fueled by low self esteem” do you think that is what we all were in our intimate relationships with our P partners?
You are right Oxy, it was definitely an “ha ha ” moment seeing that the ex P was trying to get me in a trap. He was determined to legally abuse me, he was trying to get me jailed for nothing, because he knows that would be worse than death for me. To be innocent and be punished and have no-one believe you is the end. Thats why when I read Sunny Jacobs book, “Stolen Time”, I was so moved…at her ability to stay positive in the face of death row for so long and the removal of her children.It is one of my fave books.
I am so glad not to be around the dentist and his P daughters. Do you think they will all consume each other? His daughters are sooo intense, set on anything in their pathway. How come the daughters don’t hate/kill each other?
The mind boggles.
One thing I never did, was try to get the dentist to stop drinking. I would never pour him a drink but i never enabled him or rescued him or persecuted him. When he used to call from golf club and say, “I will be home at 6.00 make sure dinner is ready.” I would say, “ok, no worries”. And I would NEVER put dinner on because I know all about alcoholism and I found it funny. I knew he would turn up at midnight smashed and pathetic or abusive. So I eventually I got a lock and my own bedroom for those nights. No wonder he wanted to get rid of me! I was onto him with his drug and alcohol abuse and Ididn’t care! He couldn’t use /blame me etc. When the kids told me to go pick him up because he couldn’t drive I would say “Nu! thats enabling” HA HA!!
Trouble was, I thought he was a genuine alkie, not a psychopath!! BIG DIFFERENCE in my book.
Yes! lots of uhuh moments lately Oxy!! THANKYOU!!! SOOO MUCH!!!! XOXOX0


P.S. I did take him to AA a few times. I wish you could have seen it Oxy…his grandiosity, “the Observer” soo funny!!

Ox Drover

Dear Tilly,

My son C also got married to a P woman (met on the internet yet) and I knew she was deceptive from the get go, but I neve rhad any idea she was a full blown P until she started to get her back up like a mad cat and got into my face, back when she thought she had the uppper hand, right a few months before she and her BF tried to kill C.

I realize too that as much of the “enabling” as I did and put up with stuff from my egg donor and other abusers, I realize that I innoculated him with the germ of “rescuing”—and he got a full blown case of it. He was also innoculated with RESPONSIBILITY and boy, did that take too, as well as a good dose of commitment. He had all the prerequisits for a victim! I imagine your son does as well.

Unfortunately with romance it is like lettuce, when you throw cold water on it, it only makes it better! I backed off and kept my mouth shut for 8 long eyars as she pulled him away from his family. I could tell he was depressed and unhappy, but couldn’t get past the wall she had built.

Except that she tried to kill him, nothing she would have done would have made my son C leave her. Even after he found out about the affair, he was willing to “work it out.” Now, he has learned a very valuable lesson, just as I think we all hve, and that is when people disrespect and abuse you, they do not love you, and nothing you can do to or for them will ever make them love you. a one-sided “relationship” is not worth having.

I’m sorry your son is set up for this, but all I can suggest is to just keep your options open with your son, keep your mouth shut and try to keep the love you have for him going and hope that some day he will “see the light.” I had actually given up hope that c would “see the light” but he did, so in this case,I would say “don’t give up hope!” Keep praying!

BTW, in the previous post I meant to say I can NOT know exactly what you were feeling, but it seemed that you had had an “‘ah ha” moment.” Sorry about that. None of us know exactly what someone else is thinking. ((hugs)))) and my prayers!

Oh, and another thing, many “alkies” are ALSO Ps



“But do they just go on like this? Will there be any rock bottoms in any of their lives and will they ever get caught out??”

Yes, they will just go on like this. Because they themselves don’t believe anything is “wrong” with “them”. For them all the “rages” and abuse will be seen as a way to protect themselves against the “bad” people (projections) us. But one thing I do know about them is that they are their own “worst enemy”. We’re all here at LoveFraud looking at “ourselves” to see “what’s wrong with me?” and then how does one go to fix it?” Here and in our personal life is growth learning and then the ability to do better. When we come to understand us more then love that person ourselves we can then give (love understanding empathy) to others we meet and already know.

Do you think these people will ever do that? With them there is no growth no understanding no compassion (not real anyway) within them. So in the end they will be left with only themselves shallow hollow and empty. Maybe it would help to look at it this way.

What would it be like to never know love? What is it like to be addicted (supply) and never acknowledge it? What is it like to live a life where you own children want nothing to do with you?…

I can only say “Thank you God” for allowing me to never know the answers to these questions

One question Tilly is if his children were stable emotionally healthy young people would they stay with dad? I don’t believe they would. That’s why he wants them this way but don’t ask him that question because instead of the truth all you will ever get from him or them is a lot of lies projections and hate..


Dear Oxy,

Thank you so much for another exceptional article! I’m preparing for the arrival of the relative who “sucks the air from the room,” and was wondering how to take care of myself whilst dealing with her. When I read your article, things just fell into place.

I strongly believe that the source of love inside us IS unconditional: it will survive in us if we give it any kind of chance and pay any attention to it. It might be like a little beat down pitiful plant by the wayside, but it still hangs in there: it takes a LOT of killing to get rid of it. Some people nurture it and revel in its beauty; others go years before discovering it; some come across it by chance and are transformed; others ruthlessly destroy it, and out of fear or laziness, they make a kill zone inside their hearts.

What I have learnt, and like you, will learn as many times as is necessary, is that part of my love for myself is to set healthy boundaries in my dealings with others and to INSIST that they be honored, full stop. It IS a part of deep love and commitment to being a quality human being to respect one’s self, as well as others, and to simply not accept being treated wrongfully. I like the soft and squishy, tender parts of love, but that is certainly only one part of it: much of love is very down-to-earth, present, and very practical.

This weekend, I will be dealing with the person, my eldest niece, who pushes my buttons the most. Since she graduated from medical school (and I am very proud of her and her accomplishment), she has become what I can only call mean-spirited: no insult is enough, no amount of needling, screaming, shrieking and verbal abuse seems to satisfy her. If she can embarrass you, she’ll do it. I was grieved and shocked on the last visit, but this time, I’m prepared.

I have learned how to set boundaries, and if it comes to No Contact, that’s were I will go with no hesitation, even though of it makes me sad. If you could see the little girl that she was! I couldn’t have children, so my nieces get lots of auntie love, and she was an absolutely terrific little girl! But the child I love seems to have disappeared and become an angry, scornful woman I can’t recognize.

Thanks for helping me shore up my courage to do what’s right, to face her not as a problem, but as a person with behaviors that I will address as I must. Thank you for helping me find strength to honor my responsibility and commitment to stay on the Healing Path and not accept toxicity in my life.

Lots of love,


One last thing Tilly, is this is the only way they know how to treat people (unless they want something from them) because this is really all they have to offer any person and/or relationship. You’re not the first and so sorry to say won’t be the last.

Emotional healthy people can give love understanding and compassion because they have this inside of themselves. These people can only give hate lies projections and insecurities which is all they themselves have in them to give. We can never give anything of that which we haven’t own at sometime in our own life. If we don’t understand it then how can we give it?


can someone tell me from experience or just knowledge”when a sociopath has been found out and is publicly rejected (by a woman)amongst his so called peers”and he finds out she has moved on and has kicked him to the curb”.what does this rejection do to his psyche??? any thoughts wuld be most helpful….I am scared as I have found out some things…I am in NC and have been for 2 weeks now….but t the time he was publicly rejected by this woman he was also rejected by his sister, mother, my daughter and things were starting to unravel…could he have “snapped”??



Snapped? No way in hell. He has got to win, no matter what the cost.

Trust me when I tell you that he will not be the problem among his peers. He will spin this so YOU are the problem. It is called the smear campaign. You can bet your last dollar on the fact that he already has it well underway and you will take a pounding reputation wise. Brace yourself.



Also, a sociopath won’t care about rejection — except to the extent that it interrupts their supply. They have no feelings, so they can’t be hurt by rejection.


Matt..yes I am aware of the winning at all costs…this guy is crazier than I ever anticipated…his wife and I have spoken she is aware now of the smear campaign that he did against her and now he is trying with me as well….I am shocked and spinning as I dont know why I thought i was any different but I am actually scared of him ….I havent done anything through the courts regardign custody as he doesnt care about our son and isnt making any attempts right now…I believe he is trying to make his wife believe he has changed..she isnt buying it now….but again…im scared


Eight years!! OMG thats a long time to keep your mouth shut for C!! It has been three years since the cluster B chased him (i.e. his first girlfriend). I have only shut my mouth for the last 14 months! And yes you are right, I have instilled all those qualities in him and he is a total VICTIM for her whole sick family (my son lives with them all/ The Psychopath mother just threw her husband out into a caravan!). My son is their chauffeur, cook, cleaner and babysitter. Guess he has taken the husbands place. What can I do???
I know, keep my mouth shut. I very nearly lost him when I exploded in front of him and the P mother and his cluster b girlfriend. But I am soooo glad I did it Oxy!! Because I didn’t end up losing him and instead THEY got a good dose of ” watch out! I’m a psychopath TOO and a much WORSE one than you !”. Well, I didn’t say that but I might as well have for the way I behaved. I was furious ! (long story). Ever since then the mother and girlfriend are afraid of me. They treat me with distance and RESPECT!! But not my poor son. I will start praying, I hadn’t asked God for help in this one! I was too busy asking for help with everyone else…
P.S. The rooms of AA are chokKa – block FULL of psychopaths that’s for sure.
Thankyou so much for your insight and support. It really helps me because I can become so ungrateful for what I have sometimes. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou! xo


P.S. My son turned twenty last week. I said to the cluster b girlfriend, “what did you get J for his birthday?” She smiled and said seriously, ” Oh I’m getting my Learners Permit for him”. She meant as in getting her L plates to learn to drive her car.
My son GLARED at me, knowing what I was thinking. But it went straight over her head.


Witsend is there any chance they can inject your defiant but ill son with his medication? I’m being serious, here in the UK they can section someone under the mental health act and do that.
I bet they can but they’ll tell you there will be too many of his ‘rights’ they’d be contravening.
In my view, if the meds work there is much more they can do to get him to take them and you’re not being supported very well in being expected to ‘shove them down his throat’ Chin up xxx
Amen Oxy, I can relate to your article so much, thank you. I just turned 30 this year and realised I spent my 20s learning about the type of selfish self love that isn’t selfish, and learning about healthy love generally. I also learned a great deal about human nature and over that decade was betrayed in varying ways by people I loved and thought I knew, family included as well as my ex.
I hit 30 with £3 in my ISA (lol!) knowing that my 20s were about spiritual gain, rather than material. I don’t have a high powered job yet, my own home or a six figure salary but if wisdom and spiritual awareness could be measured in pound coins Halifax would have to upgrade my poor woman’s Easycash account to Triple Platinum! ((Hugs)) xxx
Tilly if your son’s girlfriend wasn’t such a scary person that anecdote would belong on a TV comedy show! The redeeming factor for us non-P/Socio people is that they are sometimes so blatantly bad it’s funny. It gives us a chance to spot them if we’re quick enough, whilst chuckling at the same time. Who said the Creator of this universe didn’t have a sense of humour?! Has us laughing hysterically even as we are identifying the psychopaths in our lives!
There are many in mine, inc my brother’s ex. My brother is somewhat socio in his own way but his ex is alot like your son’s girl. She is the genuine article. Their break up was acrimonious and there were many ‘aftershocks’ as in big loud arguments in the weeks after. After one such argument in our parents house in which she verbally abused our parents and me as well as him she stormed out but returned five minutes later and asked him for a cigarette like nothing had happened! Then she proceeded to go out into the hallway and use our parent’s house phone to call her mother!
That is the sociopath – blatant and expoloitative, but they’re so clueless and it’s so obvious to us it’s almost funny. I am under no illusion about her being one after that day!!!
So for us I suppose, in the words of a well known 80s singer – the only way is up??? xxx


Actually Tilly the way your son glared at you kinda worries me – does he understand what he’s got as a girlfriend there?
I’l be praying to every religious entity on the planet that they don’t get pregnant at any point for your sake, his sake and the childs sake! xxx


I WISH that he could be court ordered to take his meds! But I have tried that route and it was a dead end.
I also tried to get him in an inpatient setting so at least for a time being the meds would be given. Pretty much until he breaks the law and is in front of a judge who MIGHT or might not order these things done I am unable to as a parent.

Ox Drover

Tilly, seeing your child trapped as a victim and “not getting it” themselves is almost as painful as knowing your child IS A PSYCHOPATH. In either case, your child that you love is “suffering” because of psychopathy.

I had no real idea though that my X-DIL was a deadly one capable of murder. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought she would go to that extent! I am just thankful to God every day that she and her BF failed in their plot. I just have to trust God’s time for it all to come out for the BEST! Of course, I am NOT a patient person, but the Bible tells me “tribulation worketh patience” so maybe this is for my learning patience…..I GET IT, GOD, YOU CAN LET UP NOW!!! LOL
My son C wants a family of his own, so very much! But at the same time he is learning about dysfunctional and disordered people so he is a bit more cautious.

A really sweet little young woman just came into our circle of acquaintences and she is really sweet and cute, but she is a “chronic” victim, going from one psychopath to the next one (is getting divorced from the second one right now and breaking up with a dysfunctional immature jerk that she had been dating) My son was quite interested in her at the start, but is seeing now that she is NEVER going to get out of the RUT she is in, that she will go from P to P her entire life.

She likes those bad boys. Is more concerned with constantly having a “boy friend” than in becoming a mature, and cautious independent woman. She actually tries to be a good parent to her kids and is better than most, but the constant chaos and men coming and going in her children’s lives is really messing them up. The 9 year old girl is dyslexic and my son and I have been tutoring her after school and she loves the attention of my sons and I see her as the “next generation” of victim by the time she is 14 or 15 trying to please men, whatever it takes. At least my sons also see the problems with the mother and her poor decision making. She just loaned her X-BF $4,000 of her divorce settlement (his previous vehicle was repo’d because he is totally irresponsible with his money) her excuse is “I just can’t say No” (sigh)

Mainly I just listen to her, but she is not in a position to want advice, and at least I am not disappointed she isn’t taking advice….about all I can do is to pray for her. At least for a little while (until school is out) I can give the little girl some tutoring and hugs, and it is nice to have a sweet little girl in the house. I wish I could keep her!

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