By Ox Drover
I was led to believe as a child that we should “love unconditionally” and that we should “forgive unconditionally.” This was the rule around our house. I did start to notice, though, that while I was to apply this “unconditional forgiveness and love” to others, those same people did not always apply it to me.
When my children were born, I felt the first real and true “unconditional” love I had ever felt for anyone. I would gaze into the crib and watch my child sleep, little fists curled up, ten perfect little fingers with ten perfect little finger nails. The warmth of this truly “unconditional” love swept through my heart and made my eyes tear up with joy.
Even when my two-year-old son poured a full box of fish food into the aquarium and I had to clean it out and change the water the second time in a week, I did not stop loving him or hold a grudge against him for his behavior. I took the responsibility for his actions because I had left the fish food where he could reach it, and he didn’t know any better. I laughed as I cleaned out the aquarium that I would be so dumb to leave it where he could reach it a second time.
As my children grew and became more independent and self motivated teenagers, I would occasionally become quite frustrated and even angry with them for some of their behavior, especially defiant behavior, but it never dawned on me to not forgive them, or to hold a grudge or to stop loving them, no matter what they did, or even to fear them. I had no concept at that time, that one of my children might actually wish in a long term continuing way to do me harm. My love for them was, I thought, absolutely “unconditional.” Just as my love for my mother, I thought, was unconditional. No matter how angry I got, I knew that I loved her and no matter what she did that upset me or hurt me, it never dawned on me that I could ever stop loving her or that the things she did actually came from a deep down desire to control me, even if this resulted in my harm.
Though there was somehow a difference in how I was required to give her “unconditional forgiveness” and forget about anything she had ever done to me, while she would frequently and critically remind me of things I did as a defiant teenager, I still believed I loved her unconditionally, just like I loved my kids unconditionally, no matter what they did or said.
Throughout many years I held on to this belief, which, I am finding out now, is a fantasy. There are behaviors so heinous that I can no longer love someone. So, in truth, my love for my mother and even my love for my children is not truly “unconditional.” In truth, forgiveness does not include trust and a resumption of a relationship with that person if what they have done is so heinous that you fear them.
I realized that fearing a person precluded me from actually loving them. When you love someone you trust them. When you don’t trust someone, you can’t really love them. WOW! What a revelation for me! If I am afraid of a person, I cannot truly love them. I can be angry with someone I love, I can even be furious with someone I love. If I am afraid of a person, can’t trust them not to hurt me intentionally, how can I love that person at the same time? For me, it was impossible.
I might love the “fantasy” of them, but not the actual scary person that is the real them. When I realized, finally, that my psychopathic son wanted me dead and I began to be afraid of him, I realized the man sitting in a prison cell was truly evil, malicious and dangerous. I also realized I was a fool if I did not take the threat seriously. Then the “love” I had felt, that I had believed was truly unconditional, seeped out, and one day I realized it was gone.
My other biological son, who was at that same time married to a psychopath himself, had distanced himself from me, disappointed me, and to some extent devalued me, which saddened me, but I still loved him ”¦ because I was not afraid of him. In spite of everything, I realized he would not ever deliberately hurt me, or want to deliberately hurt me. Yet, I realized that if he became dangerous to me, or I started to fear him as well, that I would not be able to continue to love him either.
When my “good” son’s wife (now ex-wife) tried to kill him after he found out about the affair she was having with a psychopath, his “unconditional” love for her also evaporated. He started to realize that she was dangerous. Before the attack on my son with a gun by her and her boyfriend, my son had found out about the affair and offered to “go to counseling” and to “work it out” with her. He loved her, and her affair was not something that made him afraid of her. It was only his fear of her after the attempted murder that made him able to detach from his love from her. His love that he had thought was unconditional, his commitment to the marriage that he thought was total, was destroyed by the fear for his life.
I had always thought my loyalty and commitment to my family members and friends was total and unconditional. When I started to experience true fear of some of these people, it made me realize that the only unconditional love in the universe is God’s. The Bible tells me to “love” my enemies and pray for them, but the “love” commanded in the Bible is not the feeling, in my opinion, that we normally call, in English, “love.” The “love” commanded for our enemies means to do “good to them” rather than seek revenge, but it has nothing to do with the “love” we feel, that “squishy” feeling I had leaning over my infant’s crib. It was not that loving commitment to my child that meant I would have thrown my body in front of an attacker, freely giving my life to save my child.
On a thread on Lovefraud some time back, a blogger (whose name I no longer remember) wrote that it is noble of us to throw ourselves in front of a bus to save our loved one, but not when the bus is being driven by the psychopath we are trying to save! I can’t think of a better analogy that this one.
In the end, I realized that no healthy love is truly “unconditional.” I also realized that boundaries are healthy, and that I needed to learn to set boundaries. I needed to protect myself from attacks, and that my fear or distrust of someone precludes me from having a relationship with that person. Fear precludes me from loving them.
For most of my life I tried to live up to the fantasy of “unconditional love” for those in my family, even those in my family who were psychopaths. It never felt right to me, but at the same time, I was committed to this stance because it was what I thought was “normal” and “expected.” When my family devalued me, when the “unconditional” love from them depended on controlling me, using me, abusing me, and then instilling fear into me, I finally “saw the light.” I realize now that real love is kind, love is caring, love is respectful, love is many good things, but it is never about control, never about punishment, never about deliberately inflicting pain or fear. Healthy love is never completely “unconditional.”
Rune,
As I posted earlier, before this to Witsend… at 3:31pm
“And lastly, I trust and believe Oxys every word” she has lived it! If in fact your son is out of control raging and threatening and you feel in danger please refer to Oxys advice”she has been there and through this.
My suggestion was a creative approach to an extremely defiant teen, who is manipulative. At some point he will go one way or another. He came home quiet about it. All the more reason this counselor can say Tomorrow lets talk about ways to resolve this rather than let it go on and get worse”
Just something I would do”especially since he is talking and meeting with her”. Good luck tonight. I hope its peaceful as possible” protect yourself always as Oxy says! I trust and respect her view if your son is a violent S in the making, you really need different advice than mine above.”
I honestly dont feel all of us going back and forth is helpful in anyway to Witsend. I think all of our suggestions may offer help at different stages of the process. I certainly dont think mine could hurt or harm in anyway to have the counsellor try to reach out and see what her son does or chooses…
I didnt know that Witsends son was medically diagnosed as a Psychopath. In that case my suggestions are of no help to Witsend. Thanks for all of us who are offering suggestions to Witsend…
Dear Learn,
I speak for myself and I think also for Rune, as she is a most caring woman who has posted herefor over a year. We are NOT trying to belittle you, but this situation is much more critical in MY OPINION than anything even close to a “normal” teenager “not doing his chores” and being “mouthy”—this kid has already started threatening with his body language and outbursts.
I have worked with 12 year olds in inpatient settings that were already MONSTERS with many assaults on their records and as many as 3 rapes, “boys” who were 12 but were 6 ft or taller and knew their strength. The ONLY way to protect yourself from them was to be “bigger” than they were, and in my case, I had mental health techs on each side of me like two attack dogs that would intimidate these young “men” into complying with my “requests”— like “go to your room now”
These disordered young men were capable of great mayhem.
I can’t diagnose Wit’s son over the internet, that is not possible and I am not trying to “diagnose” her son, I can only give MY OPINION AND MY ADVICE from what she says. She had said all along she was AFRAID of him physically adn even described one instance where he was openly defying her by sitting with one foot in the car and one out, because she would not give him the money for a power drink, only water.
His acting out at school and other things she has said make me realize (in my own mind) that she may be very dangerous physically. I think quite frankly it would be better for everyone if he actually did something (short of attacking his mother) that would get him arrested now. I don’t think that with a “child” that is acting out to the extent he is and in such a RAGE as he is is anything that can be reached by “meeting in the middle” he has already thrown down teh gauntlet of CONTROL and refuses to accept contro from anyone.
This is over the top behavior that can lead to “tissue damage” and murder—the parents of the boy that killed his beautiful wife Kelsi and her parents didn’t really comprehend that he would actually KILL HER, but he did. My fears are for Wit’s LIFE, not her son’s “connection” with his counselor or his “skate” camp.
If I am wrong, and I hope I am, I pray I am, then nnothing is lost, and she has kept herself safe (I suggested that she go somewhere to stay SAFE for the night at least) then nothing is lost, but if he is REALLY DANGEROUS and I say nothing, and he kills her, then there is a big difference in things lost or not.
I had no intention of offending you in any way, because with normal teens your suggestions are great and will usually work. but with kids that are SERIOUSLY acting out, they don’t work worth a flip.
His “controlled threats” with body language etc. and his being able to keep up a pretense of being a “nice kid” for so long while his mother saw otherwise, makes me think he is more dangers rather than less dangerous than if he was already punching her.
In the Columbine shooting, the “nice” kid was the psychopath kid who could control and manipulate people.
Please do not be offended, I know we each have our own opinions, and have a right and priviledge to express them here on LF, but some situations are not ones that can be handled by keeping up “hope” when the signs of DANGER are there. In this case, my EXPERIENCE both as a mother of one of these kids who was DANGEROUS at age 16, and having worked with kids just like him that were DANGEROUS at age 12 or younger, gives me a bit more insight than I might have otherwise.
Dear Oxy,
I agree with you that ” Rune is a most caring woman who has posted herefor over a year” –
I do not feel that you belittled me or that Rune meant to when she inferred that I merely “was trying to get a mediator to get Witsends son to camp”… although I felt very belittled by that, I later said that was unfortunate.
I have experiences with friends 16 year old sons on drugs and others (recently divorced ) where their son is just going off in out and out rages and storming out of school and not showing up and quit working ..they should be considering their child is a potential psychopath…but i dont think it even crosses their mind… so I am aware there is as Rune said dimensional levels to this….
I am not offended Oxy I just feel we are all entitled to our own suggestions. I definitely was not clenching to a straw of hope here…I was offering a suggestion that I would take with what I would be working with. Would it fail miserably… maybe? But I, in my opinion would try it. As I know it wouldnt hurt….and we would get great insight into what my child does with the opportunity of being offered another road…by a third party…willing to help (if my child was not in fact a dangerous Psychopath or showing any signs of aggressive physical behavior)…
Like I said hours ago, I wholeheartedly agree with you Oxy, if Witsends son is making her maternal instincts feel threatened or her safety questioned then my suggestions are of no help to Witsend.
I dont feel offended and I never wish to offend anyone here at LF. If I have, I sincerely apologize.
Thanks Oxy.
Dear Witsend,
I think it obvious that so many of us along with Oxy, Rune and myself care about the outcome of your situation with your son….
The most important thing here and focus here is your well being and your sons mental health. We all have you in our thoughts and prayers…and we all are here for you. Collectively I hope we are able to offer support to you in the best ways possible.
PLEASE YOU GUYS…I really do need ALL of your support.
I HEAR YOU ALL!
I need to hear both sides of the advice spectrum…Truth is that is how my life with him IS from crisis mode to something else to something else. EVERY day is questionable…whats going to happen today?
I have grown to care about all you guys and VALUE and RESPECT EVERYONES OPINION.
Right now I can’t seem to concentrate on anything for even 5 minutes. I can’t even make a decision. I can’t even think straight. I was trying to get some work done at home and I just feel shakey. (inside & outside) I have felt “on edge” for a few weeks. I think it is maybe just my bodys/mind reaction to the stress.
Menapause (at its worse) scattered type thoughts times 100.
This is my KID & I can’t help from being very SERIOUSLY TORN…Do I need to love/help him more or NEED TO fear him more. I AM DEAD SERIOUS ABOUT THIS QUESTION….I ask myself this every night.
I do NEED peoples advice ….I really do.
When my son is out of control at home and verbally abusive or disrespectful, I questioned that for quite awile, because many teens are disrespectful at home. But this has escalated at home BIG time from bad to worse. And now has escalated outside of the home.
THREE months AGO if you asked me if he would behave this way OUTSIDE of the home I WOULD have said NO WAY. I believed it was ALL reserved for me and he was very CAREFUL how he behaved to others. And three months ago I knew was in big trouble with him by his “dark side” I had witnessed here already…..But I still would have bet $$$ on it that he would “hold back” with others.
Please everyone….I need you guys….You are my only sounding board. I haven’t found anyone in my community that has “gotten” any part of this up until today. And school is done in a few days……
Dear witsend,
We ALL are here for you. We shared a different perspective on today…and we talked about it. But the bottom line really is we all care and want the best for you.
You have ALL OF US…You will get through this ….xoxo
One of my reasons for the thoughts I shared today was in fact to help you rule in or out your most dire question..
Do I need to love/help him more or NEED TO fear him more.
I felt if counsellor was able to intervene very quickly tomorrow morning and say look I think this about choices you are making and I think I can work with you if you are willing and want to be in a better place with Mom and school and life…I can maybe talk to Mom and see what I can do if you are willing to earn things and respect yourself and others..etc….
I thought a 3rd party who says look i know you werent completely honest with me about whats going on with the camp situation and other things bothering you…but I am willing to start over with you if you want….would really be a great way to see what he does!!! If he blows her off (With you not around or if he puts actions with words about wanting to make things better at home) THEN YOU WILL KNOW FIRSTHAND WHERE HE IS IN HIS HEAD. If he doesnt take her up on it…I would say FEARING HIM MORE is of the essence. If he makes the choice to start over, or work with her…then maybe fearing him is still present but on a smaller scale until he proves he is wanting to make changes.
Obviously, if he has that look in his eys and he is scaring you to your bones in his presence, you need to remove yourself immediately.
Lastly Witsend, take a deep breath… can you get a cup of tea or something that can bring you back down to your center again…you are going to be okay. If you feel you need to leave the house please do so. You will be okay…
Dear Witsend,
Your name so describes what I went through with my own son, and I never ever thought he would kill any one, then I realized he could, then I never thoght he would want or try to kill ME—and I fought it so hard, all the signs, all the hints, etc. and I finally came to believe that his DUPE would kill me, but i didn’t realize until AFTER THE FACT that his dupe was SENT TO KILL ME! by my son.
I realize I overreact to the EVEN HINT of physical danger, that is my own PTSD responding with hysteria at the very thought of your son harming you. I realize also that Learn is looking at it from the OTHER side of the coin, “Maybe he is just a troubled teen and something will get through to him.”
I am here for you Witsend, and am not trying to scare you but look at the BENEFIT vs RISK RATIO. If you are TOO CAUTIOUS about your own safety, what have you lost, but if you are not cautious ENOUGH what is the potential risk?
That article this week about Kelsi’s murder shook me to the core as well. Her mother’s pain has kept me in tears most of the time since it came out, I hurt for her so very very much.
I think, really, it might be a good time for me to back off LF and just spend some time off line and in my own coccoon for a few days (I’m not leaving forever) but I AM becoming too emotionally involved with things on LF right now, BECAUSE I CARE SO MUCH. I need to get my objectivity back into place and take care of myself right now. I love and care about you guys so very much. I will keep you all in my prayers. I’ll check back in when I feel better. Hugs and prayers to you all. Love oxy
Oh my Oxy, thats how I was just feeling and what I was going to do… now what?? :((
You said just a few days so maybe I can take my turn re-energizing when you feel better.
This is not a good day. xoxo Learn