By Ox Drover
I was led to believe as a child that we should “love unconditionally” and that we should “forgive unconditionally.” This was the rule around our house. I did start to notice, though, that while I was to apply this “unconditional forgiveness and love” to others, those same people did not always apply it to me.
When my children were born, I felt the first real and true “unconditional” love I had ever felt for anyone. I would gaze into the crib and watch my child sleep, little fists curled up, ten perfect little fingers with ten perfect little finger nails. The warmth of this truly “unconditional” love swept through my heart and made my eyes tear up with joy.
Even when my two-year-old son poured a full box of fish food into the aquarium and I had to clean it out and change the water the second time in a week, I did not stop loving him or hold a grudge against him for his behavior. I took the responsibility for his actions because I had left the fish food where he could reach it, and he didn’t know any better. I laughed as I cleaned out the aquarium that I would be so dumb to leave it where he could reach it a second time.
As my children grew and became more independent and self motivated teenagers, I would occasionally become quite frustrated and even angry with them for some of their behavior, especially defiant behavior, but it never dawned on me to not forgive them, or to hold a grudge or to stop loving them, no matter what they did, or even to fear them. I had no concept at that time, that one of my children might actually wish in a long term continuing way to do me harm. My love for them was, I thought, absolutely “unconditional.” Just as my love for my mother, I thought, was unconditional. No matter how angry I got, I knew that I loved her and no matter what she did that upset me or hurt me, it never dawned on me that I could ever stop loving her or that the things she did actually came from a deep down desire to control me, even if this resulted in my harm.
Though there was somehow a difference in how I was required to give her “unconditional forgiveness” and forget about anything she had ever done to me, while she would frequently and critically remind me of things I did as a defiant teenager, I still believed I loved her unconditionally, just like I loved my kids unconditionally, no matter what they did or said.
Throughout many years I held on to this belief, which, I am finding out now, is a fantasy. There are behaviors so heinous that I can no longer love someone. So, in truth, my love for my mother and even my love for my children is not truly “unconditional.” In truth, forgiveness does not include trust and a resumption of a relationship with that person if what they have done is so heinous that you fear them.
I realized that fearing a person precluded me from actually loving them. When you love someone you trust them. When you don’t trust someone, you can’t really love them. WOW! What a revelation for me! If I am afraid of a person, I cannot truly love them. I can be angry with someone I love, I can even be furious with someone I love. If I am afraid of a person, can’t trust them not to hurt me intentionally, how can I love that person at the same time? For me, it was impossible.
I might love the “fantasy” of them, but not the actual scary person that is the real them. When I realized, finally, that my psychopathic son wanted me dead and I began to be afraid of him, I realized the man sitting in a prison cell was truly evil, malicious and dangerous. I also realized I was a fool if I did not take the threat seriously. Then the “love” I had felt, that I had believed was truly unconditional, seeped out, and one day I realized it was gone.
My other biological son, who was at that same time married to a psychopath himself, had distanced himself from me, disappointed me, and to some extent devalued me, which saddened me, but I still loved him ”¦ because I was not afraid of him. In spite of everything, I realized he would not ever deliberately hurt me, or want to deliberately hurt me. Yet, I realized that if he became dangerous to me, or I started to fear him as well, that I would not be able to continue to love him either.
When my “good” son’s wife (now ex-wife) tried to kill him after he found out about the affair she was having with a psychopath, his “unconditional” love for her also evaporated. He started to realize that she was dangerous. Before the attack on my son with a gun by her and her boyfriend, my son had found out about the affair and offered to “go to counseling” and to “work it out” with her. He loved her, and her affair was not something that made him afraid of her. It was only his fear of her after the attempted murder that made him able to detach from his love from her. His love that he had thought was unconditional, his commitment to the marriage that he thought was total, was destroyed by the fear for his life.
I had always thought my loyalty and commitment to my family members and friends was total and unconditional. When I started to experience true fear of some of these people, it made me realize that the only unconditional love in the universe is God’s. The Bible tells me to “love” my enemies and pray for them, but the “love” commanded in the Bible is not the feeling, in my opinion, that we normally call, in English, “love.” The “love” commanded for our enemies means to do “good to them” rather than seek revenge, but it has nothing to do with the “love” we feel, that “squishy” feeling I had leaning over my infant’s crib. It was not that loving commitment to my child that meant I would have thrown my body in front of an attacker, freely giving my life to save my child.
On a thread on Lovefraud some time back, a blogger (whose name I no longer remember) wrote that it is noble of us to throw ourselves in front of a bus to save our loved one, but not when the bus is being driven by the psychopath we are trying to save! I can’t think of a better analogy that this one.
In the end, I realized that no healthy love is truly “unconditional.” I also realized that boundaries are healthy, and that I needed to learn to set boundaries. I needed to protect myself from attacks, and that my fear or distrust of someone precludes me from having a relationship with that person. Fear precludes me from loving them.
For most of my life I tried to live up to the fantasy of “unconditional love” for those in my family, even those in my family who were psychopaths. It never felt right to me, but at the same time, I was committed to this stance because it was what I thought was “normal” and “expected.” When my family devalued me, when the “unconditional” love from them depended on controlling me, using me, abusing me, and then instilling fear into me, I finally “saw the light.” I realize now that real love is kind, love is caring, love is respectful, love is many good things, but it is never about control, never about punishment, never about deliberately inflicting pain or fear. Healthy love is never completely “unconditional.”
newlife08:
Regarding your S trying to gain control by taking the kids out of school, I think you can regain control by saying to him “I think we can agree on the importance of our children getting educated. So, instead of taking them out of school, why don’t we determine a mutually agreed upon time so you can spend time with them?”
Taking this approach you grab back control and he’ll look like an idiot disrupting the kid’s school day by taking them out for something as silly as a lunch (benefit when you’re in court!).
Dear Tilly,
I am so sorry that you went through all of this, but you know, I can almost guarentee that after the “honeymoon” stage with his new GF, which we know won’t last long, it never does with this kind, SHE IS LIVING THE SAME HELL YOU DID!
Of course I can know exactly what you are thinking by what you wrote, but it SOUNDS TO ME lilke you have had an “ah ha” moment.
His comments about you “having to get on with his kids” or NO RELATIONSHIP was his declaration that you would have to ENDURE THEIR ABUSE OR GET OUT. Simple as that. Which also said (I love “translating” their comments LOL) “Look I don’t give a rat’s behind about you, my kids are monsters but I don’t care unless they attack ME, so just shut up, I don’t care what they do to you.”
Obviously the girl(s) were “jealous” of you because he was showing you attention (even negative attention) that THEY WANTED. they had obviously been “trained” this way as well. I don’t doubt at all that they were psychopathic (genetics + environment) but it also kept the DRAMA that he seemed to like going on.
I am so glad for you that you are out of this situation now and starting to see the “light” about what all was going on. that was the big thing for me, I kept letting myself get into P-relationships (or stay there) because I kept thinking that if I was good enough, gave enough “unconditional love” that it would make things better—IT NEVER DOES. The more you give, the MORE they DEMAND. It is never enough.
I am now starting to listen to myself (NOVEL CONCEPT!) LOL and when I am around someone who is constantly irritating me or makes my stress level rise, I start taking an “inventory” of that relationship. First off, what positive things am I getting out of that relationship (like feeling good about them and GOOD ABOUT MYSELF?) What stressfull things am I getting out of it (contstant stressful feelings, irritation, anger, feeling “put upon” or demanded from?) Many times I find that this person is just using me for a sounding board for their own DRAMA with someone else, or trying to TRIANGLE me into the problem, which is NOT my problem.
Go back here and read about the TRIANGLE. It is a very interesting concept and an EASY one to grasp and to use as a MEASURING STICK for relationships. Once you get the concepts of the triangle of VICTIM-PERSECUTOR-RESCUER, you can see that this is a game of DYSFUNCTUIONAL MUSICAL CHAIRS.
A says he was abused by B (A is the “victim” and B is the
“persecutor” andusually they are wanting you to jump in and assume the role of the RESCUER. If you do jump into this “role” and start telling them that you will fix it all and that you will :”rescue” them from B, before long, they get mad at you because you have now assumed the role of PERSECUTOR because they didn’t like the way YOU FIXED it.
Here is a short example. A is a drunk, he goes down and gets drunk on pay day and spends all his money. He comes home and his wife (B) starts berating him for spending the rent money on booze. So at that MOMENT she is the persecutor and he is the victim. He gets an ear full and slaps her, so they have changed roles, he is now the Persecutor and she the victim. She calls the cops and the cop comes in and arrests him (the cop is the rescuer). the next day the wife calls the husband’s boss and lies to him and says her husband is sick and can’t come to work (she is now the rescuer and husband the victim since the last rescuer, the cop, arrested him and put him in jail and became the persecutor) so oshe hocks her wedding ring, bails him out of jail, sh eis still rescuing her husband, but when she gets home, she starts to berate him again (now she is the persecutor) and he gets an ear full againi and slaps her (now he is the persecutor and she the victim) so she calls the cops to RESCUE HER, and on and on, just like musical chairs. Each person involved assumes ALL the roles at some point, or they may have a FAVORITE role and prefer that role, but usually they will assume on a regular basis at least two of the roles, and most times all three.
The ONLY way I know of to get out of this musical chair game is to NOT PLAY THE RESCUER, VICTIM, OR PERSECUTOR. NONE of the roles, though they will try desperately to hook you in.
That is why, I think, the Ps are so versitile in their “sweetness” and light flilp flops from the rages. In order to play this game you have to “pretend” that none of the past bad behavior has happened. That is also why No Contact throws them for a loop because you won’t get back into the game. they will try al lpositions to hook you back, being sweet one day “Oh, baby I miss you” to the “if you don’t come back to me I will make your life hell” If lthey can’t charm you they try to piss you off so you will react in anger if no o ther way because for them ANY ROLE IN THE TRIANGLE IS BETTER THAN BEING IGNORED.
After we all went NC with my P-son, his letters to my mother trying to get her to contact him showed “sweetness” if that didn’t work, it was “anger” and if that didn’t work it was “pity” and then RINSE AND REPEAT, until finally she caved in and got backk into his game—-he is the “victim” and I am the “persecutor” and she must “rescue him” from me. Of course, he will keep this up as long as she will “play” and of course SEND HIM MONEY!
Matt and newlife,
Matt, on this one I disagree with you a BIT–I think he did it to pith her off, so what I would suggest is to NOT react TO HIM. He knew she would not like it, so he predicted that she would respond with anger, NOT responding at all will be NOT TAKING HIS BAIT, however, that said,
Keep a record of his TAKING THEM OUT OF SCHOOL so that it can be brought up in court.
The Ps frequently do things they KNOW will tick you off just to get you to react, so no matter what he does like that (petty stuff) just don’t react at all, don’t even a ct like you noticed he did it. If it is dangerous or really BAD however, REACT ONLY VIA ATTORNEY, no direct discussion at all.
Discussing ANYTHING with these people is a lose-lose situation, because if nothing else it gives them”supply” cause they love to pith you off!
Dearest Oxy,
I think I made today a major step in my recovery, thanks to you and your wonderful post and the many very helpful posters who did respond to it! Lots of food for thought. We have a holiday in Europe (Ascension day), and I was sitting on my balcony preparing a talk, but was often thinking about this post.
“”Love styles are models of how people love, originally developed by John Lee. He identified six basic love theories—also known as “colors” of love—that people use in their interpersonal relationships:
• Eros ”“ a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
• Ludus ”“ a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest
• Storge ”“ an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity
• Pragma ”“ love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
• Mania ”“ highly volatile love; obsession; fueled by low self-esteem
• Agape ”“ selfless altruistic love; spiritual; motherly love (from Wikipedia)—
I was afraid of my parents (mother N, father P) and everybody else because I DID try my very best to love them all unconditionally and put myself behind and obeyed and did all the requirements “the scripture” says (love thy father and mother so you will be served well, according to the ten commands my mother often cited, by the way). In the above categories a mixture between Agape and Mania is the closest.
But MY PARENTS DID NOT LOVE ME UNCONDITIONALLY BACK!!! I was constantly afraid of not fulfilling THEIR conditions without having ANY conditions myself (as a child, no wonder!). It was like serving a contract with ever changing conditions with me having no saying in these matters. I was NOT A BOY, firstly, VERY BAD FOR ME!!! I could not trust them at all, nor myself.
I tried to overcome this general everything perpetrating fear by desensitizing myself and by exposing myself to fear bearing situations, but the fear grew bigger. The first time I was not afraid at all was when I was in the honeymoon phase with the X-P/N, because HE WAS MIRRORING MY UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR HIM BACK TO ME. It was so wonderful, heavenly, I could cry when I think back. With the D&D the fear returned. It was the most horrendous thing I ever experienced.
Now I tend to think as you do that all interaction with other living creatures is bound to a kind of unspoken “Contract” with certain rules and terms. You can’t climb into a bear cage, and you have to behave in a certain way not to embarrass other people (I refer to Kant’s Categorical Imperative as my guidance). The only one I try to love unconditionally is myself, not in a narcissistic way but in a healthy loving way, being the same time benevolent AND critical towards myself educating the “inner child”, simply without a “BUT”.
Being a grown up now, I should be able to negotiate the “terms and Conditions” of any interaction, which is crucial. And when the terms and conditions of these contracts are violated, then there will be consequences. Bringing a dash of “Pragma” into it. Thanks Oxy, you made my day!!!!
OxDrover,
Thankyou so much for your support and heartfelt words.
My P daughter, who has been overseas for a few years, (on my money), is returning at the end of June. Since I went NC she has been hounding my younger son. She rang him on mothers day to find out what I was doing etc. I am more afraid of her using him and turning him away from me than anything else. He is such a gentle, loving soul. His girlfriend is a cluster B personality, and i have had some run ins with her. I explained to him how I had been too needy when he was growing up and therefore he must be careful not to attract needy girlfriends. I had to stop both these conversations ( I.E. the one about his sister and the one about his girlfriend), because it was having the reverse effect. So until he sees it first hand with his sister he wont listen. He is already enmeshed with his girlfriend (her mother is a P), so I am praying that he eventually gets out of that relationship in one piece. I have detached (as much as I can), from his girlfriend’s and their doomed relationship because it is too painful to watch. Fortunately the girlfriend and her mother know that I am onto them, as I let them have it one day, verbally full blast, I told them I knew they were just using my son and I named it, if you know what I mean. So they know I am no walkover.
I am going to make sure his P sister,m (my daughter), doesn’t destroy us, as I know she will have a real good go at it when she returns. And I am all FOR B and E ( like your son with the key),to find out what their latest plot to destroy us is. Otherwise its lay down and die, isn’t it!
When Libelle says ” mania is volatile love, obsession; fueled by low self esteem” do you think that is what we all were in our intimate relationships with our P partners?
You are right Oxy, it was definitely an “ha ha ” moment seeing that the ex P was trying to get me in a trap. He was determined to legally abuse me, he was trying to get me jailed for nothing, because he knows that would be worse than death for me. To be innocent and be punished and have no-one believe you is the end. Thats why when I read Sunny Jacobs book, “Stolen Time”, I was so moved…at her ability to stay positive in the face of death row for so long and the removal of her children.It is one of my fave books.
I am so glad not to be around the dentist and his P daughters. Do you think they will all consume each other? His daughters are sooo intense, set on anything in their pathway. How come the daughters don’t hate/kill each other?
The mind boggles.
One thing I never did, was try to get the dentist to stop drinking. I would never pour him a drink but i never enabled him or rescued him or persecuted him. When he used to call from golf club and say, “I will be home at 6.00 make sure dinner is ready.” I would say, “ok, no worries”. And I would NEVER put dinner on because I know all about alcoholism and I found it funny. I knew he would turn up at midnight smashed and pathetic or abusive. So I eventually I got a lock and my own bedroom for those nights. No wonder he wanted to get rid of me! I was onto him with his drug and alcohol abuse and Ididn’t care! He couldn’t use /blame me etc. When the kids told me to go pick him up because he couldn’t drive I would say “Nu! thats enabling” HA HA!!
Trouble was, I thought he was a genuine alkie, not a psychopath!! BIG DIFFERENCE in my book.
Yes! lots of uhuh moments lately Oxy!! THANKYOU!!! SOOO MUCH!!!! XOXOX0
P.S. I did take him to AA a few times. I wish you could have seen it Oxy…his grandiosity, “the Observer” soo funny!!
Dear Tilly,
My son C also got married to a P woman (met on the internet yet) and I knew she was deceptive from the get go, but I neve rhad any idea she was a full blown P until she started to get her back up like a mad cat and got into my face, back when she thought she had the uppper hand, right a few months before she and her BF tried to kill C.
I realize too that as much of the “enabling” as I did and put up with stuff from my egg donor and other abusers, I realize that I innoculated him with the germ of “rescuing”—and he got a full blown case of it. He was also innoculated with RESPONSIBILITY and boy, did that take too, as well as a good dose of commitment. He had all the prerequisits for a victim! I imagine your son does as well.
Unfortunately with romance it is like lettuce, when you throw cold water on it, it only makes it better! I backed off and kept my mouth shut for 8 long eyars as she pulled him away from his family. I could tell he was depressed and unhappy, but couldn’t get past the wall she had built.
Except that she tried to kill him, nothing she would have done would have made my son C leave her. Even after he found out about the affair, he was willing to “work it out.” Now, he has learned a very valuable lesson, just as I think we all hve, and that is when people disrespect and abuse you, they do not love you, and nothing you can do to or for them will ever make them love you. a one-sided “relationship” is not worth having.
I’m sorry your son is set up for this, but all I can suggest is to just keep your options open with your son, keep your mouth shut and try to keep the love you have for him going and hope that some day he will “see the light.” I had actually given up hope that c would “see the light” but he did, so in this case,I would say “don’t give up hope!” Keep praying!
BTW, in the previous post I meant to say I can NOT know exactly what you were feeling, but it seemed that you had had an “‘ah ha” moment.” Sorry about that. None of us know exactly what someone else is thinking. ((hugs)))) and my prayers!
Oh, and another thing, many “alkies” are ALSO Ps
Tilly,
“But do they just go on like this? Will there be any rock bottoms in any of their lives and will they ever get caught out??”
Yes, they will just go on like this. Because they themselves don’t believe anything is “wrong” with “them”. For them all the “rages” and abuse will be seen as a way to protect themselves against the “bad” people (projections) us. But one thing I do know about them is that they are their own “worst enemy”. We’re all here at LoveFraud looking at “ourselves” to see “what’s wrong with me?” and then how does one go to fix it?” Here and in our personal life is growth learning and then the ability to do better. When we come to understand us more then love that person ourselves we can then give (love understanding empathy) to others we meet and already know.
Do you think these people will ever do that? With them there is no growth no understanding no compassion (not real anyway) within them. So in the end they will be left with only themselves shallow hollow and empty. Maybe it would help to look at it this way.
What would it be like to never know love? What is it like to be addicted (supply) and never acknowledge it? What is it like to live a life where you own children want nothing to do with you?…
I can only say “Thank you God” for allowing me to never know the answers to these questions
One question Tilly is if his children were stable emotionally healthy young people would they stay with dad? I don’t believe they would. That’s why he wants them this way but don’t ask him that question because instead of the truth all you will ever get from him or them is a lot of lies projections and hate..
Dear Oxy,
Thank you so much for another exceptional article! I’m preparing for the arrival of the relative who “sucks the air from the room,” and was wondering how to take care of myself whilst dealing with her. When I read your article, things just fell into place.
I strongly believe that the source of love inside us IS unconditional: it will survive in us if we give it any kind of chance and pay any attention to it. It might be like a little beat down pitiful plant by the wayside, but it still hangs in there: it takes a LOT of killing to get rid of it. Some people nurture it and revel in its beauty; others go years before discovering it; some come across it by chance and are transformed; others ruthlessly destroy it, and out of fear or laziness, they make a kill zone inside their hearts.
What I have learnt, and like you, will learn as many times as is necessary, is that part of my love for myself is to set healthy boundaries in my dealings with others and to INSIST that they be honored, full stop. It IS a part of deep love and commitment to being a quality human being to respect one’s self, as well as others, and to simply not accept being treated wrongfully. I like the soft and squishy, tender parts of love, but that is certainly only one part of it: much of love is very down-to-earth, present, and very practical.
This weekend, I will be dealing with the person, my eldest niece, who pushes my buttons the most. Since she graduated from medical school (and I am very proud of her and her accomplishment), she has become what I can only call mean-spirited: no insult is enough, no amount of needling, screaming, shrieking and verbal abuse seems to satisfy her. If she can embarrass you, she’ll do it. I was grieved and shocked on the last visit, but this time, I’m prepared.
I have learned how to set boundaries, and if it comes to No Contact, that’s were I will go with no hesitation, even though of it makes me sad. If you could see the little girl that she was! I couldn’t have children, so my nieces get lots of auntie love, and she was an absolutely terrific little girl! But the child I love seems to have disappeared and become an angry, scornful woman I can’t recognize.
Thanks for helping me shore up my courage to do what’s right, to face her not as a problem, but as a person with behaviors that I will address as I must. Thank you for helping me find strength to honor my responsibility and commitment to stay on the Healing Path and not accept toxicity in my life.
Lots of love,
Betty
One last thing Tilly, is this is the only way they know how to treat people (unless they want something from them) because this is really all they have to offer any person and/or relationship. You’re not the first and so sorry to say won’t be the last.
Emotional healthy people can give love understanding and compassion because they have this inside of themselves. These people can only give hate lies projections and insecurities which is all they themselves have in them to give. We can never give anything of that which we haven’t own at sometime in our own life. If we don’t understand it then how can we give it?