By Ox Drover
I was led to believe as a child that we should “love unconditionally” and that we should “forgive unconditionally.” This was the rule around our house. I did start to notice, though, that while I was to apply this “unconditional forgiveness and love” to others, those same people did not always apply it to me.
When my children were born, I felt the first real and true “unconditional” love I had ever felt for anyone. I would gaze into the crib and watch my child sleep, little fists curled up, ten perfect little fingers with ten perfect little finger nails. The warmth of this truly “unconditional” love swept through my heart and made my eyes tear up with joy.
Even when my two-year-old son poured a full box of fish food into the aquarium and I had to clean it out and change the water the second time in a week, I did not stop loving him or hold a grudge against him for his behavior. I took the responsibility for his actions because I had left the fish food where he could reach it, and he didn’t know any better. I laughed as I cleaned out the aquarium that I would be so dumb to leave it where he could reach it a second time.
As my children grew and became more independent and self motivated teenagers, I would occasionally become quite frustrated and even angry with them for some of their behavior, especially defiant behavior, but it never dawned on me to not forgive them, or to hold a grudge or to stop loving them, no matter what they did, or even to fear them. I had no concept at that time, that one of my children might actually wish in a long term continuing way to do me harm. My love for them was, I thought, absolutely “unconditional.” Just as my love for my mother, I thought, was unconditional. No matter how angry I got, I knew that I loved her and no matter what she did that upset me or hurt me, it never dawned on me that I could ever stop loving her or that the things she did actually came from a deep down desire to control me, even if this resulted in my harm.
Though there was somehow a difference in how I was required to give her “unconditional forgiveness” and forget about anything she had ever done to me, while she would frequently and critically remind me of things I did as a defiant teenager, I still believed I loved her unconditionally, just like I loved my kids unconditionally, no matter what they did or said.
Throughout many years I held on to this belief, which, I am finding out now, is a fantasy. There are behaviors so heinous that I can no longer love someone. So, in truth, my love for my mother and even my love for my children is not truly “unconditional.” In truth, forgiveness does not include trust and a resumption of a relationship with that person if what they have done is so heinous that you fear them.
I realized that fearing a person precluded me from actually loving them. When you love someone you trust them. When you don’t trust someone, you can’t really love them. WOW! What a revelation for me! If I am afraid of a person, I cannot truly love them. I can be angry with someone I love, I can even be furious with someone I love. If I am afraid of a person, can’t trust them not to hurt me intentionally, how can I love that person at the same time? For me, it was impossible.
I might love the “fantasy” of them, but not the actual scary person that is the real them. When I realized, finally, that my psychopathic son wanted me dead and I began to be afraid of him, I realized the man sitting in a prison cell was truly evil, malicious and dangerous. I also realized I was a fool if I did not take the threat seriously. Then the “love” I had felt, that I had believed was truly unconditional, seeped out, and one day I realized it was gone.
My other biological son, who was at that same time married to a psychopath himself, had distanced himself from me, disappointed me, and to some extent devalued me, which saddened me, but I still loved him ”¦ because I was not afraid of him. In spite of everything, I realized he would not ever deliberately hurt me, or want to deliberately hurt me. Yet, I realized that if he became dangerous to me, or I started to fear him as well, that I would not be able to continue to love him either.
When my “good” son’s wife (now ex-wife) tried to kill him after he found out about the affair she was having with a psychopath, his “unconditional” love for her also evaporated. He started to realize that she was dangerous. Before the attack on my son with a gun by her and her boyfriend, my son had found out about the affair and offered to “go to counseling” and to “work it out” with her. He loved her, and her affair was not something that made him afraid of her. It was only his fear of her after the attempted murder that made him able to detach from his love from her. His love that he had thought was unconditional, his commitment to the marriage that he thought was total, was destroyed by the fear for his life.
I had always thought my loyalty and commitment to my family members and friends was total and unconditional. When I started to experience true fear of some of these people, it made me realize that the only unconditional love in the universe is God’s. The Bible tells me to “love” my enemies and pray for them, but the “love” commanded in the Bible is not the feeling, in my opinion, that we normally call, in English, “love.” The “love” commanded for our enemies means to do “good to them” rather than seek revenge, but it has nothing to do with the “love” we feel, that “squishy” feeling I had leaning over my infant’s crib. It was not that loving commitment to my child that meant I would have thrown my body in front of an attacker, freely giving my life to save my child.
On a thread on Lovefraud some time back, a blogger (whose name I no longer remember) wrote that it is noble of us to throw ourselves in front of a bus to save our loved one, but not when the bus is being driven by the psychopath we are trying to save! I can’t think of a better analogy that this one.
In the end, I realized that no healthy love is truly “unconditional.” I also realized that boundaries are healthy, and that I needed to learn to set boundaries. I needed to protect myself from attacks, and that my fear or distrust of someone precludes me from having a relationship with that person. Fear precludes me from loving them.
For most of my life I tried to live up to the fantasy of “unconditional love” for those in my family, even those in my family who were psychopaths. It never felt right to me, but at the same time, I was committed to this stance because it was what I thought was “normal” and “expected.” When my family devalued me, when the “unconditional” love from them depended on controlling me, using me, abusing me, and then instilling fear into me, I finally “saw the light.” I realize now that real love is kind, love is caring, love is respectful, love is many good things, but it is never about control, never about punishment, never about deliberately inflicting pain or fear. Healthy love is never completely “unconditional.”
Witsend,
I guess my point is what is the lesser of two evils? Letting your son run away or letting him feel he can trust someone (And it be someone who can work with him and yourself creatively…) the next several days he can spend time with her (appearing to be on his side…she is his student…he is in her school program and she wants to “help” him get through this and to skatecamp”
Here are her suggestions….
she will “talk to mom”
he is to think of or comeup with some of his solutions and ideas as well as things that are nearly impossible for him to deal with at home….
Mom is to do the same thing…
She will talk to mom for HIM….
Some kind of plan will be made so that both are feeling heard and understood and a plan will lbe put into action….
Skatecamp can be possible if he earns it still.
Mom will ease up if he just respects and chooses to be responsible again…
or if he chooses to try medication for mood swings….just to see if he feels better and a difference.
skys the limit…be creative…third party involvement….none of it coming from you…except that youwant a better family life with him because you love him and dont want to lose him.
I know it may seem that he is getting the upper hand….but in truth he isnt , he is just getting a chance to turn it around without feeling pressure or negativity…its a creative outlet…he will either fail or succeed… but there needs to be a chance for change that doesnt involve you leading the way…he is opposed to parental discipline right now…need a third party…
Dear Llearnthelesson, (and Witsend)
I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU—giving him the camp, for NOT PERFORMING HIS PART OF THE BARGAIN in MY OPINION is trying to BRIBE them and IT DOES NOT (again, in MY opinion) do anything for them except let them know that they can get away with anything they want to do and you will come crawling back.
This control issue and this OVERBEARING ARROGANCE and ENTITLEMENT is the tip of the iceberg I am afraid.
At this point, I think his REALITY is so skewed by his own sense of the world revolving about WHAT HE WANTS that he may be very VERY VIOLENT in the near future.
Witsend, I think your best bet might be to tell him he will NOT GET IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW if he does run away. I know that sounds over the top. IF and I say that specifically in BOLD letters, that there IS any help for this boy, it is that he winds up flat on his butt, hungry, and scared out in the real world. He will find that CONTROL OF YOUR OWN LIFE can cut two ways.
His “s-mask slipping” in her office sounds EXACTLY THE WAY MY OWN SON TALKED TO HIS COUNSELOR ABOUT HIS ENTITLEMENT, until he had the counselor convinced because they would NOT listen to me. Well, the TRUTH is IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL.
They are in their own minds SMARTER THAN EVERYONE and ENTITLED to our money, consideration and so on, WITHOUT any control on our part. We are to GIVE and they are to TAKE. simple as that.
Witsend,. I suggest that you read the Savage Spawn Reflections on violent Children book as soon as it gets to you (I think you said you ordered it) My son dropped his “mask” the FIRST timie when he kicked me in the ribs and broke 3 of them, then high tailed it out of state (by convincing my egg donor that she had to save him from me!) and got out of my “evil clutches” and she has given him sencond chance after second chance and he has used them to learn to manipulate and manipulate those stupid and gullible and dysfunctional or ignorant enough to fall for his crap. My son hates me as bad or worse than yours hates you, it is all about CONTROL. Once they reach that stage, frankly IMHO there is NO HOPE for them and they are a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO THOSE THAT ARE NEAR THEM AND HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OVER THEM THAT IS NOT OVER WHELMING PHYSICALLY. Tilly, I don’t think you qualify to have overwhelming physical control over him. His anger is escalating and you are right in the path of Hurricaine X and it is going to come in full force level 5 is my very biased opinon.
Witsend, please PROTECT YOURSELF, take your other son and go somewhere for a few days at least until the anger at least levels off some. I don’t[ think it will ever level off entirely, my son STILL TO THIS DAY hates me for ANY control I had over him even as a small child. He is 38, so they hold grudges for a LONG time. Oh, Witsend, I know I sound hysterical, and it is BECAUSE I AM HISTERICAL. I can see the “big tick” on your nose and I am afraid it is going to kill you, no matter how much you love it. Oh, Tilly I have to go for now, but I am going to go right this minute and PRAY TO GOD FOR YOUR SAFETY.
Dear Oxy,
Thank you. Its okay.. I even felt that Witsend may even respectfully disagree with me. But I have to be true to my own reaction and suggestion.
I have witnessed my own teens twist the story…I have witness them believe what they are saying to be true…even last year my middle child threatened to run away in an angry hormonal fit of rage because I grounded her for not maintaining her bedroom up to my standards…
Is Witsends son suffering from a disorder ? I dont know. But if he isnt this is one heck of a way to find out….simple .. easy… and I say the fact that he was in a session and TALKING is worth every opportunity to work creatively with it. I have contended from the start that if Witsends son is depressed or going through alot of emotional turmoil or post stress that there needs to be a third party involved.
If Witsends son is truly disorderd then nothing she does will make a hill of beans difference.
Her son needs to have the shit scared out of him….but before that she can attempt what has yet to be attempted… someone he can trust and turn to who he feels is partly on his side. Who is working for the greater cause of his mom and his abiity to turn things around.
HE got caught in a lie in twisting the story… I dont know that I can call it an S Mask slipping… he was embarrassed and got loud and distracted the situation….but to call it an S Mask??? he wasnt getting his way at the end of day… he stormed away….but I would love to see her reach out to him and say I think I can help with this… I think if you are willing to make changes and be open to ways Mom and you can be comfortable together again..I might be able to help you….
He is 16. two years ago he was nothing like this Oxy… communication breakdown…power struggles…. frustration…
Is he a walking time =bomb? I dont know… Is it worth a try? Maybe..
I agree Witsend should protect herself and I agree its all about his wanting control in an unhealthy way…but I respectfully disagree that she shouldnt try creative measures too.
Redheeler & Jen2008: I know that EVEN ANIMALS CAN BE FOOLED! My two Australian shepherds have been good judges of character at other times, but they were also “taken” by the P who worked the “long con.” I now believe that he “dropped the mask” with one of my dogs who suddenly started trembling as if he had a neurological disorder. I believe my dog went through the same trauma of cognitive dissonance that I did when he finally dropped the mask with me.
As I worked on my own healing, that fact — eerie though it is — gave me a way to forgive myself for having been fooled. If he could even fool my dogs, he could fool anyone. Dr. Robert Hare also makes this point — some psychopaths can fool absolutely anyone. We must forgive ourselves for falling prey to them. Sometimes there aren’t even any red flags to speak of — not until it is too late.
PS. Oxy… I agree “giving him the opp to go to camp despite failing” IS WRONG…. What I suggested was that counsellor says he STARTS OVER NOW…STARTS TO EARN HIS WAY BACK TO CAMP AGAIN…. Starting now…working with her as she works with mom….HE WOULD DEF HAVE TO EARN HIS WAY BACK TO CAMP BY MAKING CHANGES RIGHT NOW….
NOT BY MOMS ORDERS OR DEMANDS…BUT BY THE COUNSELLORS IDEAS AND WILLINGNESS TO HELP HIM MAKE AMENDS WITH MOM …
MOM HAS THE CONTROL BUT IN A CREATIVE WAY…WORKING WITH THE COUNSELLOR (WITHOUT SON KNOWING)…SON FEELING COUNSELLOR IS SOMEONE HE CAN TRUST. SHE WOULD HAVE TO APPROACH IT AS I THINK I HAVE A WAY THIS CAN BE RESOLVED….
I THINK WITSEND SON NEEDS SOMEONE HE CAN TURN TO AND TRUST. TO OPEN UP TO. SOMEONE TO HELP REBUILD COMMUNICATION RESPECT AND RESPONSIBILITY. A THIRD PARTY.
LTL
Well the truth of the matter is SHE WAS in his corner and said many of the things you just said about if he had made other choices he would be heading to this camp. And us having a break from each other might be good. And how honorable it was of him to save the money. And how good of an offer this camp really WAS for him. And how “acting” like an adult is making good choices so you may GAIN what you are working towards.
What you have to understand is that he is a manipulator (not just the normal TEENAGE manipulator) but JUST LIKE an adult with personality disorder.
I had JUST talked to this counscelor not an hour before their sesson and she admitted to me that she was starting to “fall’ for his story. About maybe his home enviorment was very strict and I might be unreasonable and not true to my word…..
What he does with ADULTS (that fall into this category, counscelor, doctor, etc) He will be real “quiet” for a long time….Letting them think that he has so much to say but not sharing….Lets them think he has to first gain their confidence….And then slowly he will try to gain their sympathy by his little “bits” of sharing….He has been doing that all along with her. He does it with his counscelor at Riverwood.
TODAY he BLEW that “cover”. Just me being on speaker phone.
BEFORE I told her what the deal had been with the skate park I asked (on speaker phone) for HIM TO TELL her the complete story. He refused.
If he says UP is DOWN. THAT is the way it is. If he says Black is WHITE that is the way it is. If he says RIGHT is LEFT. Thats the way it is.
She SAW that side of him today. He went completely out of CONTROL TODAY and she just asked him a simple question. She asked him about a drivers license. AND that we all had to face rules where driving is concerned. HE LOST IT.
He told her HE WASN’T GOING TO LISTEN TO ANYONE, NO ONE COULD TELL HIM ANYTHING BECAUSE HE IS SMARTER THAN ALL OF US.
He ACTULLY said that. I heard it. (no news to me he has told me this many times) BUT I was a bit shocked that he said this to her!
I used to think it WAS just ME….He couldn’t talk to me or respect anything I said because our “relationship” was in disrepair.
But NO ONE so far can reason with him. Up until today he liked this lady because he got OUT OF CLASS 3 times a week to tell her his little stories. NOW she is on his “hate list” as well.
Today he shed alot more light onto how he is behaving with OTHERS not just me. I have seen “trickles” of this with teachers, counscelor at Riverwood, his friends…..But today was a bigger leap than he has made so far.
Witsend,
Another typo…I said she is his student….I meant he is her student and she could say “you are my student and my priority is you” I really think I can help you find a better way of life with mom and home and school. It comes down to how much you want an easier better life… how much you are willing to meet in middle come off your high horse…down a notch…and get more respectful and responsible… the choice is yours… if you make the choice to change turn things around I THINK I CAN HELP YOU AND TALK TO MOM AND WORK ON YOU EARNING THAT TRIP TO CAMP….etc…
Oh by the way he came home and tried to “pretend” that nothing happened.
Dear Witsend,
I hear you.
As long as someone other than you has said it all comes down to choices…his choices as to how his life and future are going to turn out…then I personaly would rest my place on the fact that he has been given a chance to seek change and make better choices.
I was not saying that camp be handed over to him now. My suggestion was camp was the “creative link” to getting him to WANT to earn it, and get his butt there. All he heard was NO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CAMP –HE LOST IT…THAT IS WRONG — BUT THAT IS THE CUMULATIVE AFFECT – and fact of the matter in that room.
I say if she sticks with him and reaches out in a creative way its worth it. I understand he is a manipulator …but now she knows…and she can offer an outlet for him if he wants to finally surrender and take it. If he is beyond repair or unhealthy or a disordered sociopath…he wont take the opportunity to turn around… but I can only say in my shoes I would ask the counsellor to creatively help with this while he is still there in school….
And lastly, I trust and believe Oxys every word… she has lived it! If in fact your son is out of control raging and threatening and you feel in danger please refer to Oxys advice…she has been there and through this.
My suggestion was a creative approach to an extremely defiant teen, who is manipulative. At some point he will go one way or another. He came home quiet about it. All the more reason this counselor can say Tomorrow lets talk about ways to resolve this rather than let it go on and get worse…
I know your mom loves you and is worried that your choices are going to cause her to lose you. She wants her son in her life. I think I can help you two make better choices with eachother and both gain the respect and responsiblities back of mom and son!!!
Just something I would do…especially since he is talking and meeting with her…. Good luck tonight. I hope its peaceful as possible… protect yourself always as Oxy says! I trust and respect her view if your son is a violent S in the making, you really need different advice than mine above.