Lovefraud recently received an e-mail from a young man, we’ll call him Kyle, who has just broken up with a woman whom he now believes is a sociopath. Based on the behavior he described, I’d say the guy is right. The woman cheated on him, and when confronted, either downplayed her behavior, said it was none of his business, or verbally attacked him. She had no interest in resolving problems. “Her solution to everything was to run, wait awhile, and then pile on affection as if nothing ever happened,” Kyle wrote.
Kyle has been researching sociopathy to try to grasp what is really going on with this woman. Here’s more of his e-mail, which I have reproduced with his permission:
First of all, I don’t believe criminal behavior, monetary fraud, substance abuse, or any other overt signs of social misconduct are primary symptoms of sociopathy. I suppose that’s the big question though… what is a primary sign? My theory is that the sociopath is incapable of developing personal values through the process of induction, meaning they are unable to look within themselves to gain a sense of self-esteem. This results their inability to experience empathy. After all, if one cannot generate a sense of self worth from their own reasoning how can they be expected to relate to others who do?
It seems in every case I have read about, the sociopath is an extravert. I think this is natural as the person must constantly be in contact with others because they find no satisfaction in themselves. Sociopaths also seem to be universally intelligent. (Perhaps these are the factors that differentiate a sociopath from a psychopath. Again, forgive my ignorance on the subject). What results is a charming individual who preys on other people to satisfy an endless hunger for temporary esteem. Because they cannot make sense of the internal values which should be generating this esteem, they simply try to get it from others, essentially reversing cause and effect.
In the end, this system never quite works, so they develop an incredible defense to avoid the fact that every close relationship falls apart. Every interaction is bounded by a series of rules/parameters. So long as the victim stays within these, things run smoothly. However, close human contact results in an emotional trade off that is impossible to control. Normally this is a tremendously good thing: trust, loyalty, and compassion are established. However, these all rely on a person’s sense of self worth, and the sociopath is not able to understand that. Sooner or later the relationship becomes too close and loses all stability. This is the point where the sociopath is “found out.”
In dealing with the woman, I felt a certain childlike quality to her emotions throughout our relationship. Though she was highly developed socially, in a lot of ways I almost felt like I was dealing with a puppy who just killed a small bird in the front yard. I think my mistake was in believing that I would be different. If I held my hand out she wouldn’t bite it. But I think this quality is misleading, as that naiveté is something the sociopath will avoid at all costs. They simply refuse to learn from their mistakes, or even acknowledge them in the first place. It seems to be a rare combination of a highly developed intellect and a poorly developed emotional response.
Perhaps at some point every sociopath learns to guard that core of insecurity at the deepest level and as such cannot even look at that, let alone analyze it and learn from it. In time, they develop an incredibly complex mechanism to guard this, adding another component with each deception. By early adulthood, these deceptions become so many that the cost is just too great to turn back, and it’s just so much easier to keep going that the thought never even crosses their mind.
These people are not normal
Kyle has correctly observed many traits of a sociopath: Criminality, fraud and substance abuse are not necessarily the prime indicators of this personality disorder. Sociopaths do not experience empathy. Sociopaths are extraverts. They are highly developed socially, but emotionally immature. They do not learn from mistakes.
However, his theories on why sociopaths are the way they are suffer from a fatal flaw: They are developed from the perspective of someone who is normal.
The hardest part of understanding what happened during our entanglements with sociopaths is coming to terms the extent to which these people are not normal.
Lovefraud readers have described sociopaths as not human. Aliens inhabiting human bodies. As cold as these descriptions may sound, they’re probably the easiest way to grasp what you are dealing with in a relationship with a sociopath.
So how different are they? Let’s take a look.
What sociopaths want
Normal people want love and harmonious relationships with others. Normal people want to feel competent in some form of endeavor. Normal people want to contribute to the world in some way.
Sociopaths want power, control and sex. Since they do not really value human relationships, they only want to win.
Kyle is correct in stating that sociopaths cannot look within themselves and develop personal values. He is incorrect in assuming that this causes the sociopath distress. Yes, these disordered people are empty inside, and they may be vaguely aware that they are missing something. But most sociopaths do not have issues with their self-esteem. If anything, they are grandiose, and their views of themselves are ridiculously inflated. They feel absolutely entitled to anything that they want, simply because they want it.
Self-esteem and sociopaths
Kyle speculates that sociopaths must be in constant contact with other people because they are trying to borrow self-esteem from others. This is not the case. Sociopaths view people as pawns to be manipulated into giving them what they want. Every social encounter is a potential feeding opportunity, a chance to convince someone to provide something.
Many people, of course, eventually catch on that they are being used, and stop serving as supply to the sociopaths. Sociopaths are aware of this—they’ve experienced it many times. So they are constantly on the lookout for new targets. When one victim is depleted, he or she must be replaced with another.
This leads to the answer to Kyle’s question, which is, “what is a primary sign of sociopathy?” Dr. Leedom has said lying. Steve Becker has said exploitative behavior. Put them together and you can say deceitful exploitation is central to the disorder.
Insecurity and sociopaths
Kyle suggests that sociopaths are insecure and build defense mechanisms to protect themselves from being hurt. By the time they’re adults, these defense mechanisms are so elaborate and complex that sociopaths can’t return to their authentic selves.
Again, he’s trying to interpret the sociopath based on how normal people may cope with personal issues. This is a mistake.
Wikipedia defines insecurity as, “a feeling of general unease or nervousness that may be triggered by perceiving oneself to be unloved, inadequate or worthless.” Sociopaths probably should see themselves as unloved, inadequate or worthless, but they don’t. They may seem to be exhibiting insecurity, but in reality it’s one of two things:
- Frustration that they’re not getting what they want.
- Manipulation tactics to get what they want.
Sociopaths have no feelings, so there are no feelings to hurt. They can certainly pretend to be hurt, but it is a ruse designed to guilt others into giving them what they want.
Genetic roots
So if sociopaths are not trying to protect their deeply felt insecurities, where does this disorder come from? In most cases, the temperamental traits that lead to sociopathy are genetic. That usually means one of the parents is a sociopath, and sociopaths are notoriously bad parents. If a child is born with the traits, bad parenting can make them develop the full disorder.
But even if a child with the traits gets good parenting, the disorder can develop. Parents who have a child at risk of developing sociopathy need to take extra steps to help the child overcome his or her predisposition, but the parents may not realize it. And in some cases, even the best parenting is not enough to overcome negative genetics.
It is also possible for a mostly normal child who has extremely an extremely bad growth experience—such as being moved from foster home to foster home as a baby—can develop the disorder.
Accept and avoid
Please understand that I am not picking on Kyle. He’s obviously given a lot of thought to his experience with a sociopathic woman, and is trying to understand what happened. He has a reasonably good handle on normal behavior and normal motivations.
His letter simply provided me with an opportunity to illustrate that what we know and understand about normal human behavior simply does not apply to sociopaths. Thank you, Kyle, for allowing me to quote you.
In the end, we may not be able to truly comprehend sociopaths. The way they go through life is just too foreign to our natures. We must simply accept that they are very, very different from us, learn to recognize the symptoms, and if we see them, run for the hills.
Kathy, both of your last posts really resonate with me. And a therapist said essentially the same thing to me. “What did you get from him?” You have to go get that yourself. Well, to answer that, I first had to reclaim my values, and let go of the contamination of my values which he managed to pull off.
She pointed out that without him, I wasn’t having much fun, much escape from responsibilities. I’m still working on that one, but I do have a lot of laughter each day. And I started going on vacations for the first time in 35 years.
He was very wealthy, and since he was my first love, and since he had begged for another chance before I got married which I refused (he was pre-med, I married an adult newspaper boy, I was never a gold digger) …I was impressed with the wealth and power, and it felt like…wow, that could have been mine.
Then I realized what a penny pincher he is, and all I wanted to do with money was channel it to good causes, and guess what? With my work positions, I have been directly responsible for handing out tens of millions, much more than I could have with even his wealth, even if he had NOT been stingy. and I have a home that is heaven on earth for me, I wouldn’t leave it for anything. So suddenly I realized…HEY, he made me feel like I was dirt trash, but I’ve given away more money than he’s ever earned or married! And I’m in a much more beautiful spot than his mega mansion or upscale apt, or vacation condo. With my values, I’d hate being in a mega mansion. Just being an American is rich. We have clean water every day. I am in a house with room! I have all I need for nutrition. I have medical care. You have all that, you are rich. Beyond that I feel compelled to give it away or use it to earn more to give away!
Anyway , you are so right. A big vulnerability is looking for something from people.
I also wanted to feel desirable. He made me feel that then jerked out the rug. Now I feel good about my desirability, without seeking validation outside myself.
Always have to repeat, no bad guy, no problem. But to use your analogy, now I can spot a truck coming to run me over in plenty of time to jump out of the way. And it doesn’t matter what that truck has to offer me , no matter what it is carrying, if I know it is truck showing lots of dents from people it has hit (called red flags) I ain’t climbing aboard, just to be thrown under a wheel later.
Healing Heart said Monday, 2 February 2009: Interesting – they “feed off” others. I think extraverts get “energized” by being around others – but it’s not at the other’s expense. But Sociopaths”they “feed off” others, and it IS at the others’ expense. Maybe its not “extravert” at all – its simply “parasite.”
My ex S didn’t do well in crowds or large gatherings. What he was good at was getting the attention of one person (almost always a woman) and mesmerizing/seducing her. I don’t think he existed when he was alone. He had no life force on his own.
Responding to what Healing Heart said: THIS ALSO MAY HELP MAKE SENSE OF THE FACT THAT MANY N/S are not very selective about new partners (based on their stated value system, which they apparently “borrow” from us) — They are likely to date anyone who can provide N-Supply…doesn’t matter if a new person’s background/attributes are very, very different from that of a previous partner. From what I’ve read on the posts here, no wonder the N/S can seem to easily replace a previous man or woman whom they once said was the “best thing” that had happened to them.
The N/S lacks internal standards and lacks consistency in values. They are not real –they fake authenticity — so they see no conflicts in their professed values versus actual behaviors and choices, while their “victims” probably struggle with the fact that they “selected”/were attracted to people who turned out to be so different from their own real values. Of course, “victims” were misled to believe the narcissists were similar to them until “victims” began to notice the lies and discrepancies.
OXY,
I posted this elsewhere but I need your thoughts here…other may jump in too of course.
in court he informed me that he asked his attorney to tell the court that he wanted to reconcile.
Then he wouldn’t drop the issue after court.
He had our son Friday through Sunday. He was with his mistress Sunday and he stayed to install the carseat for me. Then he stayed for an hour trying to convince me to stay with him and R.
(What was she thinking the whole time)
Then he finally leaves and is on the phone with me the whole way home.
(I allow this to happen thinking she’ll wake up)
I stay firm on “its not happening, you had 4 chances, I will never trust you”
He finally gets it through his thick skull and starts crying. Then begs me to let him come over and “hold me” (what a dipstick! I’m not stupid) I said no seriously about 25 times.
He ended up coming over”told her he needed to go for a drive or go to work (he was already due in at 3 am) we talk and he admits several times that he wanted to “make love” to me.
Again: what an ass and how stupid is “she”?
He leaves crying and carrying on about how much he loves me, but he respects my wishes and will leave me alone “I won’t text you or call you.” (is that a threat or a promise?)
So this lavish attention also continues into Tuesday and Wednesday visits each day ends with me thinking he gets it and will leave me alone, him in tears giving guilt trips, and the next day begins with more tricks to convince me that he actually wants me back.
Of course I am sure you can guess that he can’t keep any of his stories straight and someone who has spend the last 3 months educating herself can see the lies and manipulations”c’mon he’s still living with her.
Then tonight his mom tells her (while he’s in the shower) that she should let him go”
BTW this has nothing to do with me as SHE called his mom the night he extended his visitation by 5 hours and ignored her calls and texts.
He was even in the car with her today when he addressed this issue with me asking me not to share anything with his mom”all I told his mom was “yes” he was with me that night OW called.
Then with HER in the car he says she knows how he feels about me and that he wants the marriage back and what’s best for our son, me and him”
HELLO I know I have my issues with this man as he is very sly, but is this woman TOTALLY brain-dead? I mean he’s not a smart sociopath and often contradicts his own lies”.
sorry so long I haven’t been online in weeks as my “friend” kicked me out on the streets.
PS He’s been so civil (still manipulative) lately that I wonder if he’s a full blown P or just has major coping issues from the abuse”I read somewhere that sexual abuse survivors are often habitual liars and manipulators because it was the only way to cope as a victim”mine had to do it for 7 years.
PPS How can I get back to my old posts to follow up on them?
BANANA!!!!
BOINK!!! That’s the sound of my cyber iron skillet hitting you over the head for LILSTENING TO HIS CRAP….and for your comment “I wonder if he’s a full blown P or just has major coping isues” WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF HE IS A P OR JUST A JERK?
THIS MAN IS TOXIC, HE IS A LIAR, A CHEAT, HE PLAYS THE PITY PLAY, HE IS WITH HER AND STILL TRYING TO GET BACK TO YOU—does any of that sound P-like? OF COURSE IT DOES.
And I am SHOUTING at you!!!! Get your head out of the sand Banana, DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS MAN, as long as you listen to his LIES, you will not notice his BEHAVIOR WHICH IS PSYCHOPATHIC ALL THE WAY, 100 PERCENT.
Arrange the kid’s pick up time by e mail, and only talk about the pick up. Nothing else. Let someone else be there when he picks him up and drops him off DO NOT EVEN TALK TO THIS GUY OR SEE HIM, OR LISTEN, OR READ HIS TEXTS, OR LISTEN TO VOICE MAILS. CUT HIM OUT OF YOUR LIFE.
The GF’s getting it or not is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. If she is an indiot, what is that to YOU? What is HE to you besides a cheating lying piece of dog doo?
You’ve been here long enough that you KNOW NC, or at least as little as possible contact is the ONLY way to go, you’ve heard 100 others tell you how their men/w3omen acted just like him, and so on. YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, sweetie, now get out there and LIVE IT—before Tilly gets her boomarang out. My skillet will only leave a KNOT (a love tap) on your head, but Tilly’s bommer will cut your head off!!!! ((((hugs))) and my prayers, sweetie, STAY STRONG!!!!
ps. don’t talk to his mom either.
“When one victim is depleted, he or she must be replaced with another.”
I want to be replaced, however as suggested above I feel keeping my X in the “civil” mode of manipulation he is easier to get along with.
We have been able to discuss our sons needs and unusual behavior or health. My x has more than agreed to CS and paying 1/2 of childcare and 1/2 of insurance.
We have discussed the Divorce settlement and will be drafting it.
I have advised my attorney that any sticking point will be handed over to the attorneys.
I think I know what my X wants…other than sex…he wants me in his life. I have found he will just call me to chat and discuss things like news and cars.
But I also see a control issue. While looking for aparments I never asked for his help, but received many listings from him, and if I did not inquire he got upset. He still blames me that I did not find a place with a washer and drying in the unit and doesn’t approve of the clientele.
Oh well.
So I don’t want to say…”stop buttering me up” as he has been very helpful because I dont want his “evil” manipulative side to come back out.
I have to deal with him as he is my son’s father and I would much rather not have to deal with retaliation.
Advice please
Oxy,
I added the above while you were responding to me and I thank you for the wake up call. I know and understand all you are saying and I can see and have told him that he is trying to (and is aready emotionally) cheat on his mistress with me.
I think iget caught up because I want him to get caught…seen for what he is. But the good in me does not want to be an accomplis.
I know I need to cut him off, but if I do it abruptly I will begin to harass me and be vindictive.
Banana,
BOINK AGAIN!!! Sweetie, you are allowing him to control you. CONTROL YOU. “If I do it abruptly he wil lbegin to harass me and be vindictive.”
If you EVER let him stop controlling you,he will be “vindictive”—THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
Either contionue to let him control you, or be a big girl and put on your big girl panties and TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN LIFE. If he tries to harass you, CALL THE COPS, file an order for protection, contact your attorney—BUT AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO GIVE IN TO HIS DEMANDS THEN HE IS STILL CONTROLLING YOU AND YOU WILL NEVER BREAK FREE.
Honey, stand up on your hind legs like an adult and SET THE BOUNDARIES, tell him, “I am in control of MYSELF” Sure, he will fume and threaten, but you know what, as long as you let him manipulate you (whch is what you are doing) you are still not free.
As for him getting “caught” it will happen eventually, and then again eventually with the next victim and so on, but the thing is that THAT IS NONE OF YOUR AFFAIR. Wishinig ill on him just takes up your own mind, time and heart. He is his own worst enemy and believe me he will NOT have a good life, but as long as you keep your nose in it, and letting him control you, neither will YOU.
I am speaking plain and blunt, but I know you ARE STRONG, and that you DO know what to do….so just buck up baby and put your sweet little foot down, and ROAR!!! TOWANDA!
I hate to be repetative. But when he is vindictive my peace is gone…I keep trying to focus on how this is affecting me. So far there have been no real negatives.
As I shared with my mom today…I know being civil and friendly with him is giving him what he wants, but in return I am getting what I want which is peace and good communication for and about our son.
I can totally see where you are going with hthis as I do tend to give him more “human” qualities the more I give ear to his BS. But alas it is BS and I can see it plain as day…is there still a great risk if I know I’m playing with fire but I where all the protective garments and use the right tools?
Is there any way.
As stated earlier CS and day care are settled as are health insurance and timely return of my half of the “estate”.
Maybe I just continue to play nice until all items are received and the divorce is signed and filed?
Dear Bqanana,
Sugar the CHOICE is YOURS, not mine…you asked for advice and I gave you what I think is good advice, but it is YOUR LIFE. You make the decisions of what to do, but you also live with the consequences.
You know that even if you do something I think is a poor choice, it is YOUR CHOICE and I WILL SUPPORT THAT CHOICE. You are an adult and you have to make your own choices for your life.
When you ask questions though about “is it just from the abuse?” it makes it sound to me though as if you are making “excuses” for him. It doe4s NOT matter WHY he does what he does, he does mean, evil things to you. Just the fact that you are afraid to go NC with him because he will retaliate, to ME says he is evil (mean, whatever word you want to use) and that there is no way you will “win” in trying to spar with this man who is NOT HONEST. He is trying to hook you back, he is not honest with his girl friend, he is not honest with his wife—he is not even honest with himself. he is a total fraud.
The PURPOSE I think fo rhim even seeing your son is that it gives him contact with YOU. You obviously ARE upset with his current behavior or you wouldn’t have asked about it.
So my suggestion at this point is that you sit down and examine yourself to find out what YOUR GOALS and YOUR TIME TABLE are and then do whatever YOU think is the BEST choice—best for your feelings, your son, and for your financial angles.
Keep in mind though, that EVERYTHING he says is a LIE–plus, he will never pay support witout you having to WRING every dime out of his blood. You can never count on it, so don’t spend that money until you get it in your hands no matter what the court says. He will break court orders for support and visitation FROM NOW ON. I don’t need a crystal ball to “predict” that one—ask every mother here who has not gotten their support check. If you are LUCKY he will move on and leav eyou and your son alone and not pay support, which you CAN count on NOT getting it. LOL I know that is no joke though when you are raising a child alone.
If I could put my arms around you and “make it all better” I would, but there is no way to do that–do the BEST you can is all I can say. You know I am here for you and so is the rest of love fraud. Here, it’s a cyber ICE PACK for your knot on your head from my skillet (smile) I will keep you in my prayers! (((hugs)))) Oxy
Banana, Oxy is right. unless you are rich and powerful, only NC can contain the narc. It’s not logical. Nothing with them is logical because they are a FORCE OF NATURE, like a huricane or a lion or a cat. Have you ever seen a cat play with a mouse? Only way out for the mouse is to hide in a hole and not come out until the cat is gone. If there is no hole then the mouse can play dead and hope the cat gets bored and not eat him. Lastly, I have seen a mouse actually hide UNDER the cat. When the cat stood up the mouse was gone. It had burrowed into the cat’s long fur and was clinging there. Reminds me of us, clinging to the P, afraid to run because that just gets him excited again.
The more I think of it, the more primeval the sociopath is. It doesn’t respond like a human, it responds like a wild animal – all instinct.