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By | August 30, 2009 316 Comments

The love scripts of sociopaths

It is likely you are reading this because a sociopath said “I love you” and you believed him/her. You also probably thought that when the sociopath said “I love you” he/she used these words as you do, to express a sense of intimacy, passion and commitment. However, what a sociopath says and what a sociopath does are so different it can be crazy making.

In the aftermath of a relationship with a sociopath, former romantic partners are left to wonder, “Just what was going on in that person’s mind?” “What was he/she thinking?” Many people have written in asking, “Did he/she really love me?” and “Do you think he/she loves that other person now?” It is the second question many find most disturbing.

In 1943, Dr. Abraham Maslow in his classic paper, A theory of human motivation, declared that psychopaths lack the capacity and motivation for love. “The so-called ‘psychopathic personality’ is another example of permanent loss of the love needs. These are people who, according to the best data available (9), have been starved for love in the earliest months of their lives and have simply lost forever the desire and the ability to give and to receive affection (as animals lose sucking or pecking reflexes that are not exercised soon enough after birth). ”

Contemporaneously with Maslow, Dr. Hervey Cleckley described psychopaths in The Mask of Sanity and developed a set of criteria for their identification. According to Cleckley (criteria #9), psychopathy is associated with “pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love.” He declared “The psychopath seldom shows anything that, if the chief facts were known, would pass even in the eyes of lay observers as object love.”

Cleckley also maintained that an “absolute” incapacity for love is even found in those with an “incomplete manifestation” of psychopathy, who lack the full disorder. Writing in 1956, Drs.McCord and McCord disagreed with Cleckley and Maslow. They described psychopaths as having “a warped capacity for love” stating, “there are indications that the capacity, however under developed, still exists .”

My guess is that the McCords got fooled just like you and I and a recent paper shows us why.

Dr. Barbara Gawda at Maria Curie-Skldowska University Poland studied the “Love Scripts” of sociopaths. Love scripts are simply ideas about love that a person has. These ideas include how people fall in love, and what people in love are supposed to do.
Dr. Gawda showed a picture of a man and a woman hugging to 60 sociopaths in prison, 40 prisoners without disorder and 100 university students. She asked all participants to write a story about the picture and to imagine themselves as one of the characters.

The sociopaths stories were significantly longer, more detailed, and more self-centered than the other two groups. Contrary to expectations then sociopaths do not lack love schemas. They are perfectly adept and perhaps more adept than most in talking about love. The findings of this study jive completely with my own clinical experience. That is, over the years many people I knew to be sociopaths told me about their love experiences. Their stories were impressive and had me believing that they were capable of love.

If clinicians, scientists, lovers and family members rely on verbal reports, they will never come to understand the lack of capacity to love that characterizes sociopaths. Cleckley reached his conclusions about psychopathy and love only after observing their actions over a number of years. He also said this,

“In a sense, it is absurd to maintain that the psychopath’s incapacity for object love is absolute, that is, to say he is (in)capable of affection for another ”¦ He is plainly capable of casual fondness, of likes and dislikes, and of reactions that, one might say, cause others to matter to him. These affective reactions are, however, always strictly limited in degree. In durability they also vary greatly from what is normal in mankind. The term absolute is, I believe, appropriate if we apply it to any affective attitude strong and meaningful enough to be called love, that is, anything that prevails in sufficient degree and over sufficient periods to exert a major influence on behavior.”

References

A theory of human motivation. Maslow, A. H.; Psychological Review, Vol 50(4), Jul, 1943. pp. 370-396

McCord, W and McCord, J (1956) Psychopathy and Delenquency New York: Grune and Stratton, Inc. page 13

Love scripts of persons with antisocial personality.Gawda B.
Psychological Reports 2008, 103, 371-380.

This study compared the scripts of love among 60 prison inmates diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder and those of 40 inmates without an Antisocial Personality Disorder diagnosis but low antisocial tendencies, and a control group of 100 adult students in extramural or evening secondary schools without Antisocial Personality Disorder traits. The study focused on emotional knowledge about love of the group with Antisocial Personality Disorder, as they present lack of capacity for love. The study was done to examine how they perceive love and how much knowledge they have about love. All described their reactions to a photograph of a couple hugging each other. The content of these scripts, analyzed in terms of description of actors, their actions and emotions, and length of description, was compared among the groups. The scripts of love by antisocial inmates contained more actors’ feelings and strong emotions, as well as more descriptions of actors’ traits, their actions, and presumptions. The inmates with Antisocial Personality Disorder showed more focus on themselves when they described love than the other inmates and the controls.


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neveragain

Your analysis is so correct. I think those who have actually been in an intimate relationship with a s have seen exactly what you are saying. It is hard to believe or comprehend until you have experienced it. (That is where you have an advantage Dr. Leedom!) Even without the mood music, these guys are academy award winners whose performances can sweep us off our feet, as assuredly as a performance by the best actors.

The P/S/N I was involved with literally did that…atypically (when I was about to walk out the door and leave him for good, early on!), swept me off my feet and threw me over his shoulder. I didn’t have the script, of course, and started to do my “part” wrong. He LITERALLY started the “scene” over and informed me what I was doing wrong and that he “hadn’t asked” me to do what I was doing and told me what I should do instead.

His slip was later he mentioned his favorite movie to me, one he watches over and over. I rented it, and there was the over the shoulder scene!! It was the remake of the Thomas Crown affair…..and he very much fancied himself a Thomas Crown type person. I realize that is a “common” move, but when I confronted him about it, he admitted that he was replaying that with me.

So yes, they can write out love scenes etc……they’ve often, I think, stolen them from here and there. When it comes to emotions, etc., these guys have to memorize it, because they don’t have it.

Yet, as you or Steve or someone (forgive me for not remembering) pointed out, there are people who don’t feel emotions who are NOT exploitive. I have a friend like that. She is a very good undercover investigator of awful graphic stuff….but she doesn’t feel emotions. So she can do her wonderful work that has huge benefits for society. But once she saw someone throw a plate down and break it, on a tv show, and she asked “is that what anger feels like?”

I think P/S/N have no idea what love feels like. So when the P said to me “I love you”, I think part of him felt that was true, as far as he knew. BUT on the other hand, his timing showed he said it when he wanted to be sure I would show up for sex, and stopped saying it when I was getting too assertive about reciprocity in the relationship. And of course it wasn’t really the sex he wanted so much as the ability to control me. I could go on about that, but that is a different subject.

Also once he told me how he felt on a bus in China where it was very crowded and he was pressed up against the side of a woman. He said, “I felt like feeling her up and saying “di duv du”……which (besides the obvious predatory nature of his comment) showed he viewed saying “I love you” as part of what you do to get a woman to accept being felt up, and the “di duv du” version showed he is well aware he doesn’t mean it as the woman thinks he does, and it also showed his contempt for women and how stupid he thinks they are.

Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

Great article! Many insights.

Like JAH, I think that the psychopaths are great ACTORS and they behave as they have observed others do, and they say the “lines of the script” just as a practiced ACTOR would, but without understanding of the associated FEELINGS.

Dr. bob Hare said, as most of us know, “they know the words, but not the tune (music)” and because they have “tin ears” to the music of the emotions connected to the WORDs, they are UNABLE to learn or even really hear the music.

I am not very musically inclined, as I do not have a “good ear” for music, and I have observed others who ARE very musically inclined play wihtout any effort the instrument I play (very poorly) by learning it by ROTE and continued PRACTICE but will NEVER be good at because I do not have a “natural ear.” I can sort of FAKE playing this instrument and my playings may please someone who knows nothing about music and doesn’t have a good ear, but since I do not have the musical TALENT I will never get the beat just right, or the instrument tuned just right (unless I use an electronic tuner, which I do) so the psychopaths can FAKE the emotional actions of love, but never FEEL IT as they do not have the inborn capacity for the feelings that go with the actions.

My close friends know that if I have a couple of glasses of wine, I am dis-inhibited enough that I start to THINK I can sing and play well, and give it my best shot, so they always make sure if I have an instrument in my hands I am not allowed to even come close to a glass of wine. LOL I also thinnk this is one of the reasons that many Ps use drugs or alcohol to convince themselves that they are “better” at faking “love” than they are, or they use alcohol to confuse victims so that the victims are not so aware of their deficits.

Of course some ACTORS are better than others, and some psychopaths are better actors than others, and some audiences (victims) are less demanding of the quality of the acting than others.

I think now because we (former victms) are sort of “on to” their tricks now, we are MORE DEMANDING of a “performance” than we would have been before our abuse. We no longer fall for the acting so easily, and are continually scanning our environments for signs that the person we are with is not sincere. fortunately, I think 99.9% of psychopaths do give off signs that they are faking early on, but unless you have learned what these signs (red flags) mean, which many of us have learned to our sorrows, you are not so critical of the performance.

The more a person actually knows about and has a talent and ear for music, the more they are aware that I can’t really play or sing worth a plugged nickle!

neveragain

Oxy, you are so great with analogies! Perfect!

Ox Drover

JAH,

Thank you, glad you enjoyed my little comparison, I seem to THINK in analogies and metaphors as well as pictures, rather than in just words. Comparing one thing to another and seeing the similar patterns seems to be my “thing.”

I remember when I first “realized” that my now X-BF was a P was when I was driving down the freeway with my son D, and we passed the turn off to the home of another P I knew that had been a “friend” of my late husband’s, and it was like a bucket of cold water was poured over my head, and I shouted to my son (who was driving!) “THAT’s it, he (the BF) is JUST LIKE _____” (who was a very narcissistic man who looked down on women as a whole and who was emotionally abusive to his wife, who was a lovely woman.)

It was ONLY when I compared my BF to this man that I could see the similarities between the way this man treated his wife, and the way my BF has started treating me.

So it seems I must take a KNOWN and compare the “Unknown” to it to see the patterns.

MariaLisa

Ugh I still read back the loveletters my ex send. And they still read as TOTAL sincerity now. Only thing is: I know the reality. Everything was a lie. And when confronted he just said he was soo depressed and I made him feel better and I shouldnt blame him for it. BUT back then I checked and checked his words for months and months asking to elaborate on his emotions regarding me…
They sure know how to elaborate. The most horrible things is I can still read em back and want to believe them… He truly seemed desperate for my eternal love and he wanted to share his life with me. He said he wouldnt be able to live without me. But at the end he switched like I never existed. I still miss some of the cosy times we had. So weird those few, few cosy moments and those many many false words and illusions overshadowed all his incompetencies…I hate that I thought this ugly man ( he truly was nasty looking, but I loved him….) was soo interesting. I loved his backbone and morals. They were all make believe. Now I live with knowing he continues to feed of of amazing women for the rest of his life, and I cant do anything about it.

skylar

Wow MariaLisa, another parallel with you. Mine was ugly too!
He looked like a neanderthal with a heavy brow ridge and his teeth were buck and filthy from smoking.
Not to seem conceited, but I was actually on the better side of cute – mostly because I was 17 and most 17 year old girls are cute anyway.
But there was something about this guy, that when I finally overlooked his ugliness and patheticness and constant demeaning everyone… well, I was going to say that he seemed roguish(sp?), but that isn’t it either. It was pity. I felt a connection to him that even he never intended. That connection was one that neither of us spoke about and I know now that he didn’t feel it, but I did. The connection was that I could sense that he had felt a huge disappointment from his parents. A disappointment that left him feeling abandoned. I had the same feelings about my family and somehow sensed his feelings. I now know it made him evil and it made me empathic. So we were bound to hook up.

MariaLisa

Hi Skylar

Mine had horrible teeth aswell…He looked bad but for some reason I thought there was something angelic about him…..
And like you Im very pretty too. Very pretty…. He was lousy in bed, but I was attracted to him. Weird right??? I often felt I was having sex with a little boy ( not to sound weird, I hope you understand how I mean this), I couldnt have him focus on anything caring, nor on anything primal for that matter. In a way he was sexless. And at the same time he was always talking about sex, it, his words, almost made me believe our sexlife was amazing when there was in reality so little exciting going on…You know what I mean?? I dont wanna get to explicit…

skylar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYN74ZW4k_E
here is a video of the Counting Crows playing “mr. jones”.
The song is about narcissism and I love how Adam Duritz is dancing around like a six year old – that is not how he normally performs. He is a genious.
The lyrics are classic narcissism. The childishness of the words, “mr. jones and me” rather than “mr. jones and I”
The grandosity, the desire for someone to “believe in me” and “when everybody loves me, I will never be lonely.” All of the lyrics are amazing. Adam really GETS narcissism.

skylar

That same album, “August and Everything After” has another song called “Murder of One”. That song makes me cry because it is about US, the victims of sociopaths.
I got the album back in the 90s and I knew it was about me, I didn’t know how, but I did know that it was speaking to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMMa5MsgFdg&feature=fvw
Here are the lyrics:
Blue morning blue morning wrapped in strands of fist and bone
Curiosity, kitten,
Doesnt have to mean you’re on your own
You can look outside your window
He doesnt have to know
We can talk awhile, baby
We can take it nice and slow
All your life is such a shame, shame, shame
All your love is just a dream, dream, dream
Are you happy when youre sleeping?
Does he keep you safe and warm?
Does he tell you when you’re sorry?
Does he tell you when you’re wrong?
Ive been watching you for hours
Its been years since we were born
We were perfect when we started
I’ve been wondering where we’ve gone
All your life is such a shame
All your love is just a dream
I dreamt I saw you walking up a hillside in the snow
Casting shadows on the winter sky as you stood there
Counting crows
One for sorrow two for joy
Three for girls and four for boys
Five for silver six for gold and
Seven for a secret never to be told
Theres a bird that nests inside you
Sleeping underneath your skin
When you open up your wings to speak
I wish you’d let me in
All your life is such a shame
All your love is just a dream
Open up your eyes
You can see the flames of your wasted life
You should be ashamed
You don’t want to waste your life
I walk along these hillsides in the summer neath the sunshine
I am feathered by the moonlight falling down on me
Change, change, change

MariaLisa

I know that song well. I always loved it. But do you think the singer is a narcissist? Or he is singing aout one. In that case it must have been something from his experience. I dont get who mr. jones is though…

Skylar… do you also recognize the things I last described ( 6:26 post)? ….

skylar

MariaLisa, I WILL get explicit.
did you ever see the episode of Star Trek the next generation where Data has sex with Tasha Yar?
He was programmed to be fully functional. “programmed in multiple techniques, a broad variety of pleasuring”.

Well that was my P, but never any sounds of pleasure for himself or feelings, nothing on his face. No expressions either visual or audible.

I think Tasha got more emotion out of Data than I got out of the P. LOL.
here’s a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM8JfKSZ6NM

MariaLisa

yours no sound too??? I like to talk a bit, sometimes exciting things, nothing crazy though! But he just COULD NOT talk while at it. he seemed in shock most of the time. or like he was surprised I was there with him or something…I mean after a while. The first period I guess he was trying harder to appear normal…

skylar

It was more than just no sound, he was sooooo focused on getting me to go absolutely crazy with desire. He wanted my emotions. He would take me to the edge. But he might as well have run on batteries….LOL! because he never broke a sweat. He is a true vampire. Although we no longer were physically intimate or barely touched for 15 years, whenever we went to a thriller movie, he would drape my arms and legs around him, “to keep you warm” he said. Now, I know that it was to feel the jumps and spikes that my body produced during the exciting or scary parts of the movie.
We stopped having sex 15 years ago because he only wanted orgies. Me and several other men. I just didn’t feel that was going any place good. I didn’t argue with him, I just said no and he never suggested the alternative of just 2 of us. Now I’m pretty sure that he liked looking at the guys too. I’m pretty sure he is either gay or bi.
About the bad teeth, it’s possible that they were using meth and crack and hiding it. Sociopaths need lots of stimulation, and crack/meth users eat a lot of sugar to keep the energy level up.

MariaLisa

well i didnt wanna say ( even on this board im embarrassed) but he was an ex heroin addict and exalcoholic.i dont know anything about drugs but he smoked crack too…all before i met him… BUT ofcourse TOTALLY on a new spiritual path!!! Oh yes he was very much into God. He looked down upon people as he said who were ‘ living a lie’.
SERIOUSLY!!!Skylar: Who are these people?!?!?!?

yours sounds more like a narcissist. mine a sociopath. the first time we did it i remember him doing things a girl thinks are romantic and it all seemed heartfelt…i guess he just couldnt keep that mask up to long…i mean why bother when he ‘had’ me..i think, right?
mine wasnt into anything crazy sexually AT ALL. i wrote it earlier in another post, our sexlife or mostly his sexuality still puzzles me the most. i thought he was very detached sexually. i actually wanted to help him with it, but I guess he couldnt care less. he would make promises in that area like every area, that he never kept….

did yours then go off and do al these things without you?

skylar

Maria Lisa, no way that mine is not a sociopath. He was intent on driving me to suicide, just like his ex-girlfriend. But that didn’t begin until my money was gone. i’m convinced he killed others, through mechanical sabotage. But with women, I’m sure he just outright strangled them.

All of these details ARE embarrassing, but the most embarrassing of all is just that we were taken in by liars.

Mine was totally against drug use or even alcohol use. But that didn’t stop him from being a drug DEALER! He told me that he had sold acid and I knew he sold pot. he also told me he cooked meth once but when he watched the junkies shooting up, he decided not to do it anymore. Riiiiight.

Why did I put up with that? because I felt sorry for him, I just knew he only did those things because he was very broke and desperate. Riiiight.

I remember that he would come home smelling like sex. I remember that he would often make “friends” with young blonde guys. Then later I read that the Ns are so obsessed with having sex with themselves that they look for people who remind them of themselves when they were young and in their prime.

I know he used sex to manipulate my P neighbor who likes to steal other women’s husbands. Funny thing, I told her years ago that she could have him. I’m sure she told him and probably amped up the rage.

Another funny thing: I had a closet-gay, male friend for years. This is the only friend that my P would allow me. He destroyed all my other friendships. He finally met my friend, after some years. My friend and my friend’s young blonde (obviously gay) friend needed a ride but my car was a two seater and so is my P’s. So we split them up. I gave the blonde guy a ride and P gave my buddy a ride. The next week, my friend made a comment using my P’s FULL NAME INCLUDING THE MIDDLE NAME, which I had never told him. I pretended not to notice. Weeks later my friend said, “do you ever wonder if (the P) is gay?” I said, “no, not ever.”
The gay friend moved to canada about 10 years ago but we sometimes emailed each other. Then this year I told him about the P’s strange behavior and that I was afraid. My gay friend reacted almost agressively and told me that it was too much meladrama for him to handle. Then he told me that my sister didn’t love me and that I should contact oprah. WTF?
I’m now NC with my ex-friend.

skylar

MariaLisa, it looks like we hi jacked this thread with discussion of our love lives. LOL.
But I just wanted to respond that your xp sounds really childish. Like wanting to talk about sex in a cheap thrills kind of way, but not about intimacy, just like a little boy looking at a playboy magazine. I can relate to that. Mine used all kinds of childish words to talk about our intimate relations.
Being so young when I met him, I just let him dictate how everything went. Until I finally just said no.

Ox Drover

guys, there is a thread and article on here that Ps aren’t really straight OR gay, just many hypersexed–will have sex with a snake if it will stand still. No emotions, just like an animal.

hens

A snake? My x had no labels – sexually – and I discovered he was -bi- after he left. He would do anyone. His penis was his ticket to ride. Or get a ride when he didnt have one. I didn’t need his penis – I needed his love – and he told me he loved me twenty times a day – it was a way of controling me and manipulating me – but I got tired of the unemotional I love You’s – most of the time I was looking at the back of his head when he said it – he had his face buried in the computer and would say I LOVE YOU if he heard me or felt the air move as I walked by. When a S say’s I love you – it is to make you crazy – not make you feel loved…But my X was terrified of snakes – I often think how cool it would be to put a 7 foot black rat snake in his truck…:)

MariaLisa

everyone

this totally puzzles me when everybody says how their S or P or N was a total sex addict and mine so weird in this. I mean I found out he was cheating on me in a LARGE way, BUT I talked with other victims of him about sex with him and they shared the same experience as me. He never seemed into it ( in action), only in his talks.

i just woke up from another nightmare. cant believe this still happens. wake up feeling so humiliated how I remember him parading me around and now realizing what I must have looked liked when so many people ( male friends) around him knew of his ways. god knows what they thought of me….and i was living int his bubble of ‘love’. i thought he would tell them what he tells me, how he was SMITTEN with me and talked about marrying me and having my babies ALL the time. YUCK. feels so humiliating. how do we ever get rid of this feeling.

btw about homosexuality: i always thought he had something feminie about him. nobody else saw it but I thought it was all over him. I mean he was all man in how he projected himself ( sports, not into beauty products), but the angelic quality about him was…maybe not feminine but child like then. i dunnno he switched the way he acted too. one moment he would look so cold and masculine and the other like such a sweet little boy. which one was him? when was he not wearing a mask. i mean arent they without identities?

Tilly

Henry,
My ex p was terrified of SPIDERS! So I have may fantasies of putting a funnel web (deadly and very easy to get) in his BED.

Nowadays, if anyone says ” I love you” to me (that is except for my son), I immediately don’t believe them and feel on guard. This is the intelligent thing to do if you have had my past.

blueskies

Maria, one of the hardest things I find getting over is the humiliation of how I behaved. Me. I’ll see your ‘YUK’ and raise you an ‘eeeeeeeeew’!. I am SO embarrassed by the things I did and the things I allowed him to do with me. I will work it out in the end though I guess. I have no feelings for ‘it’ now other than utter revulsion. when I think of ‘it’, I dont have any fluffy romantic feelings or miss ‘it’ I just feel like throwing up. there is a lot of guilt to be worked through about being bonded, and bending over backwards for an abusive monster,he acted like a stupid baby, and there I was dancing about trying to make it happy in ANY way I could, tearing down my own shaky boundaries in order to accommodate it’s depraved needs and hold on to something that turns out to be dangerous and disgusting. I also shudder at the thought of me allowing my children anyway near ‘it’. I shoulda (woulda, coulda) known better.

Tilly, It makes me sad to hear you say that you will never believe anyone who tells you that they love you again:( Although I do understand why you feel that way. It does seem to be the intelligent thing to do. It’s like Oxy’s analogy of the cat jumping on the hot plate. I dont think I EVER believed anyone before I met this ‘thing’. I believe that it is part of the psyche that I built up in order to protect myself from a young age and its part of why I was so easily duped when I felt that I could FINALLY trust and love and BE loved curtosy of the monster from hell skank beast. I want to work on feeling love and being loved, as a GIVEN. Then it wont be such a big hole in my soul, you know, with a sign in the window saying’ vacancy for sociopaths, apply within!’. One of the positives that has come out of this is that I have ‘seen the light’ with regards to those people in my life that DO love and care for me. I have found the trust that I never had before to place the value I didnt have on those relationships without fear or giving anything of myself away. LOVE IS important. Love will save the day… just not in a silly Jane Austin way… or an ‘all consuming pathalogical obsessive way… but in a solid, true, calm, deep and meaningful way. REAL love exists I have learnt just as much as REAL EVIL…but neither LOOKED like I had pictured, I had it all wrong. I refuse to ‘throw the baby out with the bath water’ here even if it takes years of therapy and work on myself to re-programme ! Am I making any sense? lol:)x I hope all is well with you today Tilly.x

skylar

First, some background:
The guy at the sushi bar, who enlightened me about malignant narcissism says that he learned that his dad was a N and his mom was N-lite. He is NC with his dad. His brother is also an N, but he still communicates with him.

This man is a successful lawyer, 50 years old and never married. I think I scared him off when i told him about the predatory nature of my ex-P, but at the time, I just wanted to be honest and also was not ready to jump into the sack or anything else – I was still in shock from my discoveries.

He says many of his relationships have turned into stalking mode but he usually doesn’t worry since he knows how to bore them away.

Later, while talking on the phone, I told him that I discovered that N’s are EVERYWHERE. It seems like you can’t get away from them. He said, “yes, I’ve heard there are good people out there, but I’ve never met any of them. I only meet N’s.”

maybe we should find the non-N’s out there and start a club, just for non-N singles. If any N’s infiltrate we reserve the right to kick ’em to the curb and publish their names.

Ox Drover

Dear Blue skies,

I could tell you were having trouble describing what you felt, but IT CAME THROUGH ANYWAY!!!! And is so RIGHT ON!!!

The hormonal FLUSH of “new love” is a chemical thing, just a great feeling, like a drug high that lasts (if all goes well) for a few months or years, then if things continue to go well, it settles into a contented, friendship and long-lasting caring love.

Many times statistically at least, “arranged” marriage which some cultures do very well turn into this contented long lasting marriages/relationships even though they don’t start out even knowing each other before marriage.

IN the US about 50% of first marriages end up in dirvoce court I think. and 75% of second marriages (I haven’t checked these statistics lately but they were the last I heard) I can’t even imagine what the percentages of “relationships” and “live togethers” turns out to be over before too long.

People seem to think that just “living together” is easier to get out of than a legal marriage but many people have children together in these arrangements or buy property together so i am not sure they are bettering themselves much. Also the “live togethers” seem t6o me to be “more casual” and happen sooner than traditional marriages used to at least.

Though in some people’s minds marriage is more a religious committment than any thing else, it IS also a legal arrangement. Sharing your bed and your possessions etc with someone I think should be a least a VERY serious decision, with a legal CONTRACT even if you don’t have a desire to legally marry.

If you wanted to sell someone a car you would not let someoen else try it out and drive it for a year or two, or even a month or two wihtout some kind of contract, so why would you let someone share your finances, and life without some kind of contract?

If I ever considered remarrying again, and if either of my sons decided to either marry (son D) or re-marry, son C, there would be a prenuptuial agreement about how things would be handled in the event of death or divorce—contracturally, rather than letting a JUDGE decide this later when potentially the two spouses hated each other.

There are only two things that can happen in any marriage or relationship—one or bvoth of them die, or they seprate/divorce. So since one (at leat) of these things is going to happen, why not prepare legally before it does so that there isn’t any CONNING?

25 years ago when my late husband and I got married, he had kids and I had kids, and we had a prenuptuial agreement on how his, my and our resources would be handled.

When son C got married we all thought she was after a “meal ticket” so we put the family farm (which had all our houses on it) into a trust so in the event of a divorce between C and the WITCH that she could walk away with her SUITECASE, not a chunk of the family farm. As it turned out, the SHERIFF gave her a RIDE TO JAIL as well and she didn’t even get the SUITECASE.

Though my late husband and I had long ago mingled funds, because of the pre-nup I had no problem at all with his estate. Or the step kids. Since I have a good relationship with my step kids it wouldn’t have been a problem anyway, however, I do know a woman who lost her home at an elderly age and was destitute because of her step kids moving in like vultures….and they were legally able to do so, thought it was NOT her husband’s wish, but they had not protected her before they married.

Whether you are living together or married, or have kids or don’t, there needs to be provision made legally in a contract prior to marriage or moving in in my opinion. If the relationship turns out well, fine, if not, you are protected at least finiancially.

My son also made the mistake of “letting her” handle ALL finances and bill paying—much to his sorrow! All commited and cohabiting couples should BOTH know what the finances are, what comes in and what goes out and for what! If someone isn’t willing to do that with you—-you do not need them!!!

Even if they are spending their own money UNwisely, you should be aware of it. Credit cards should also be closely monitored as well. Ps are good at hiding expenditures or lying about them, and many people here have said they were stuck with credit card debt that their X P ran up, or THEIR credit ruined.

Married or not, if your finances are co-mingled, you should have some kind of agreement in writing, some kind of committment, and some kind of auditing and knowledge of how joint finances or seprate finances are handled. If the finances are pooly handled, you can bet there is some problem with the relationship. Many times this is the FIRST indicator that there are other problems going on.

FINANCIAL GOOD SENSE 101—you need to pass that course with an A+

missdiaz

I think that it is interesting to note that a root cause of the disorder is due to lack of emotional & nuturing bonding in the first few weeks/months of life. Sadly, I do know that my ex-bfd P was not wanted by his mother (and to this day he hates her and feels she abandoned him) and he was adopted by a close friend of his father’s. It is tragic. I cannot help but have compassion for him, but I do have my limits.

He is back in my life as ‘a friend’. Apparently his new wife is the silent accepting type, that he claims to be able to leave for days on end, and she simply dosnt even call or bother him. She is very secure with him, and dosn’t question anything he says or dose. It’s what he wanted, so he married her.

I did find out that she recently had a miscarriage, but he did’nt confide in me. It’s very tragic. He’s just far too rough in bed, that is the primary reason she lost the child, of that I am sure.

He has given me $ and some food. It’s been rather strange. I do know that he is trying to see if he can ‘buy me’, and waiting to see if I’ll make any advancements to him. He’s only really interested in sex. Everything is a game to him. I am grateful that he hasnt contacted me in 4days + today, and I am well aware of his manipulations.

Sure I admit that I do desire him,(It would be great to meet someone new) but I would never be that ‘other woman’ and I also know he can never love me, or anyone else (his wife is so clueless) so it’s not ever going to be worth getting all tied up with. I like the simplicity of friendship, but my guard is up, knowing his tendancies and desire for power and control are uppermost in his game with not just me, but everyone.

I do not know what his next move with me will be, but I at least know to keep it light and simple. I also will always have the freedom to say no to him, imagine how shocked he would be if I did!? I can just see his face!

As more time passes, and as I re-read the profile of a sociopath & come to this blog, I feel a distinct and powerful sense that I am in reality, not fantasy, about this man. I mean to say that I know he’s got limitations. Sure, he dose alot of nice things, but I wont get tangled up in any hopeless affaire with him. I also see that he seemed to pick a good victim with his wife, she is utterly accepting of him in every way, and ignores his tantrums, absences and abuse. I am sure he will have affaires, but it will never, ever be with me. I’ll be that challenge that he can never get back. Thank God, I am looking forward to meeting someone who can return my love!

skylar

missdiaz, you are just not thinking with, as ErinB says, “your inner psychopath”.
he doesn’t want a friend. He doesn’t want sex. He wants control, attention and drama and he will get it with any person or animal that crosses his path.
Remember MaryJoe got shot in the face by Amy – not by her husband. Your P will drive his wife or one of his other mistresses insane by flaunting your “friendship” as being something more. Before you know it, the drama is back and you risk being shot in the face.

blueskies

Missdaiz, I also think you are playing a dangerous game. in your post you are talking like you are ‘in control’ of the situation…then making excuses for why he is like he is (red flag)… making yourself party to hurting his current wife by enabling his BS(red flag)… saying that even though you know what he is you still desire him(erm BIG red flag) doesnt sound like a ‘control’ sitch to me or that you are seeing the reality. Its sounds like you are enjoying feeling like you hold his strings… THAT is the fantasy. You are still INVOLVED and IN THE GAME. Stop it.

Sorry to be blunt.:)x I just KNOW that NC is the only WIN situation.xxxx
much love.

DasIchChick

This is my first post, and it’s a weird one, but I felt compelled to comment anyway. My ex-n was VERY ugly, but the sex was so fantastic that it was actually the reason why I went back to him – the second time, at least. Due to extensive sexual trauma, before I met him I not only hadn’t ever come from it, but I didn’t even feel anything during it at all. He came into my life after 7 years of having pleasureless sex and took me to having multiple orgasms. The strange thing was, it was VERY hard for him to come and he had the stamina from hell, which I guess isn’t strange for a sex addict when I think about it. Because of my history, I’m one as well, which is why it compelled me to go back to him.

Skylar – my ex NEEDED my emotional bond as well. When that quickly receded after the first time he became violent, that was all he ever talked about – needing me to emotionally trust him again and put complete blind mindless faith in him to do the right thing and take care of me (like he said that he expects of EVERYONE he “allows” into his life – “if they don’t act exactly as I expect them to, I’m not going to be friends with them. What’s wrong with that? EVERYONE has those expectations of the people in their lives.” No, most people let people be as they are and either accept that or not!). I was ripe for the plucking due to an abusive home situation (my mother is somewhere between borderline and plain batshit psychotic) and was desperate for an out. However, previous to him I had a three-year relationship with either an N or S (haven’t really figured out which) and he was, like many have shared about their exes, bisexual as all get-out. He’d do anyone – male, female, old, young, married, single, he didn’t care. I asked him why once and he said exactly that – he just didn’t care. Both of these guys I was involved with are serious alcoholics and come from very bad family situations.

blueskies – I actually lost my mind when I was with my ex. With all the trust I gave him, I completely lost mySELF. I did so many things with him that I’m so ashamed of and repulsed by as well. You’re not alone 🙂 The way I let myself be degraded was just… unconscionable. My mom always told me to never let any man control me but I had to find out the hard way the consequences of not heeding that advice. Even though I’ve always had non-existant self-esteem, I at least had a SEMBLANCE of respect. With my ex-N – a broke 36-year-old with 6 kids by four different women (though only four are alive) who doesn’t even so much as own a bed and FORGET about child support, yet somehow I was letting him make all the decisions while I took care of the responsibilities. He even had a rule that he didn’t introduce me to his “business” associates (he fancies himself in the entertainment business) because they didn’t care about “the man’s girl” but of course, that rule somehow went from applying to just “business associates” to his stripper FRIEND. And every time I called him on an inconsistency, he had some web of words to spin that confused me to the point where I just gave up and conceded. He had beaten me down, kept me sleep deprived and hungry. I reached a level of disrespect for myself that I didn’t know was possible. Even though I had no self-esteem, I always had an independent MIND and he had taken even that from me. I’ve been almost four months NC (with an admitted exception of a week in July when somehow an e-mail got through to me and my curiosity got the better of me) and I am also trying to become un-addicted to him. Even though he caused me to break my almost three year stretch of not self-injuring – not once, but TWICE – I still find myself immensely confused when I think about him. Intellectually, I know what he is – his actions that I documented at the time are plain evil clear as day – but EMOTIONALLY, I want the intellectual stimulation, and PHYSICALLY I absolutely crave the sex.

Sorry about the long post – hello everyone. Long time reader, first time poster.

Ox Drover

Missdaiz,

Why would anyone want a “friend” or to even be in contact with such a man as this? For money, and the things he “does for” you?

That is like saying “he is such a nice person, WHEN HE IS NOT ROBBING BANKS, OR BEING MEAN TO PEOPLE.”

Get real, woman, get away from this person and STAY away. he is a married man, and whether or not his wife is a victim or not is between her and him. Get a single man for a friend, not a married psychopath, it can only lead to MORE TROUBLE.

YOU ARE PLAYING WITH FIRE. If you choose to do this, and continue to interact with him, then no one can help you, only you can fix your problems and that can only be jfixed by getting away from him.

Rosa

MissDiaz:

“I do not know what his next move with me will be, but I at least know how to keep it light and simple.”

“Light & simple” is easy enough…..Good for you.

But, what if HE decides his “next move” is to make it HEAVY and COMPLICATED?????

Disordered men (and women) are nothing to play with. Get away from this person ASAP.

P.S. Only one person can be in control at any given time during a relationship/friendship. So, when push comes to shove (and it usually does, with disordered individuals), which one of you will be the one in CONTROL????
Be very careful.

blueskies

Rosa’s right… HIS next move. NOT yours. In his mind you are still in a game but this one is ‘let her think she’s in control for now game”. Wake up lady! (with respect xxx) You are in control of Jack sh**t with these people.
and another thing! WHY would you want to ‘see his face when you say no’? have you read about sociopaths? THEY DONT CARE!! As skylar says… tap into your inner sociopath and re-think the situation you are putting yourself in.xx

Rosa

Furthermore, if you do NOT know what someone’s next move is going to be, you are definitely NOT in control of the situation.

Right on, Blueskies. I am reading your post as I write this one.

blueskies

AND another thing!(enter soapbox stage right and picture a ranty english tired woman wagging her finger;) I dont want ANY of my relationships to be about CONTROL or manipulation EVER AGAIN. I HAVE real ‘gooduns’ in my life by some absolute miracle, and they are not about control of one over another at any given time (dont mean to contradict Rosa xx). They are few, and they might sound like some hippy friendship nirvana, but they EXIST and I DONT DO anything else from now on. I have DECIDED.:)

blueskies

LOL! we were ‘further more and another thing!’ posting over eachother:)xx

Ox Drover

Dear DasInChick,

Welcome, glad you are reading and learning, and welcome to your first post. You know the drill, and KNOWLEDGE IS POWER so keep on learning. God bless.

skylar

Oxdrover, I resent your comment:
That is like saying “he is such a nice person, WHEN HE IS NOT ROBBING BANKS, OR BEING MEAN TO PEOPLE.”
I actually used to say, he is such a nice person, WHEN HE IS NOT SELLING DRUGS, LYING, OR BEING MEAN TO PEOPLE.”
and I meant it! LOL! It actually sounded reasonable to me at the time. Now I understand that I would find an excuse for any behavior to avoid the shame of facing the truth: that I loved a perverted, souless, thing.

Please sign me up as the stupidest person on this forum.

MariaLisa

Blueskies and everybody

I think that is the best rule ( quote Blueskies): ” I dont want ANY of my relationships to be about CONTROL or manipulation EVER AGAIN”

If I so much as feel an inch of control game I try to be alert on this in PERSONAL relationships. I mean there are plenty of situations in this life where you cant chose, but darned I wont let friends in now that I need to be alert and what not. I just cant do it anymore. Id rather spend my time on anything else. I also wont allow myself to fool myself anymore. CHOSE reality is another mantra. Its hard though.

DASICHCHICK

Welcome, or wilkomme maybe ;).
Thats an intense story you wrote down. Seems like you are being very real with yourself which seems to be an excellent starting point. I dont know what else to say yet. Did you read The Betrayal Bond, that would be a good one for you.

skylar

MissDiaz,
Please don’t misunderstand us. I also fantasize about keeping in touch with the P, just so I can get more information for my book that I may one day write. I would so love to taunt him by telling him that he isn’t possessed because the devil would never waste his time on him. He is skipping along the road to hell very nicely on his own, why would the devil waste his time? The devil is more likely to focus on an innocent person. just as the P would not waste time luring a skanky ho if a nice young nieve girl is nearby.

Sorry, I digressed into my fantasy. See what I mean? But anyway, my point is, it’s just a fantasy. Reality is what the people on LF are trying to bring you back to. Unless you live the life of a spy or have unlimited resources with lots of people on your payroll, you cannot afford to play with this guy.

Ox Drover

Dear rosa and Blue,

People who “play games with” known psychopaths and try to have relationships (“friendships”) with them and to be “in control” have problems that we cannot “solve” here on LoveFraud (or anywhere else for that matter).

Think about it for a minute—how do victims behave—they are devestated, broken, broken hearted, angry, and rinse and repeat, etc. they do not try to stay in a relationship with the P to “gain control” over the P and play with fire. They may want the P to love them, treat them nice, or even go back because they can’t stand to be alone, etc. or even recognize that the P has hurt them, doesn’t and can’t love them, but they don’t go back for a “friendship” as a general rule.

Look what we told Henry to do, and guess what, Henry kicked the X-X “friend” to the curb, because he knows you can’t be “friends” with a P.

Remember the guy who came here wanting us to help him “write the perfect letter” to her and he compulsively kept on writing and re-writing this letter over and over? then he started asking us for copies of the letter we wrote to our Ps, and telling us he just wanted to “control the situation”—

When we get involved with trying to give advice to a person who is trying to “control” the siutation, almost with glee, like it is a big game, think about what we are dealing with and what the chances of success in that are.

Remember how many times we advised the letter writer to drop it? What was our success? What conclusion did we come to about the letter writer?

What happens when one person plays with matches around gasoline, and maybe gets burned, and then goes back to seeing how close they can get to the gasoline again without setting another fire? Both gasoline and fire are dangerous by themselves and when you put the two of them closely togeter, it is always a bad thing. It may keep “life interesting” and “advernturous” and there is a “high risk taking” component that sometimes keeps people from being bored, but not my cup of tea if you know what I mean. Think about it.

That’s a situation my skillet couldn’t help, but maybe Tilly’s boomer could. (((hugs))) to you guys

skylar

Dasichick,
sleep deprived and hungry…I can relate to that. No time to eat and sleep while on an adventure.
Welcome. I know you still feel bad, I do too, but I keep reminding myself that the worst is over and it can only get better with him out of the picture.

MariaLisa

Skylar

WHAHA thats funny, yeah I have conversations about him, to him and fantasies and what not about him too.

But seriously these last couple of days I have been on the verge many times to contact someone in his surroundings again, which at this point I KNOW is absolutely dangerous for me. The hurt is apparantly still bigger than the fear for him and his. The need has subsided in the last few hours ( I take it all STILL hour by hour sometimes…)

blueskies

Oxy: ‘WORD!” (that, I am told is youth slang for ‘bingo! you’re so flippin completley right its astounding and they should make you president;)xxx

Skylar:Please sign me up as the stupidest person on this forum? I think you’ll have to fight every last one of us for that posthumous position!;)xxx

DasInChick :)xxxxxxx Thank you for posting. I relate to so much you have said. The ‘word webs’ alone were so confusing….had me out of my mind too. xxx I am so glad you are here.xx welcome.xx (Next on my list… after the first hundred things, is finding a way to be the sexual and sensual woman I AM without it being toxic for me:)xx That’s another ‘baby I am NOT throwing out with the bathwater’!

blueskies

‘I reached a level of disrespect for myself that I didn’t know was possible.’
I read that and took a great big gulp.:( I hope that all of us who recognise just how far down we travelled past our own sense of morality, can find a way back… to something much better.x

MariaLisa

Blueskies

Yes, but I still have to live with the insecurity that it might all happen again. I think back of the first say 6 months of the relationship and there was no clue. Do I have to wait to get serious with someone for longer than 6 months…The problem with them is that they first make you attached, which I know inevitably happens when I am close to someone over longer periods of time. So attached and invested is the situation where you find yourself to have to detach again at the first signs of disrespect. Maybe I look at this too sombre. I sometimes truly think I wont ever trust again. BUT as one of my best friends said the other day:” You can trust yourself, you will work on being good to you and you will always have someone, namely YOU’.

Ox Drover

Blueskies,

I don’t wanna be president, I want to be DICTATOR so I can buy Devil’s island and move all the Ps there and just turn them loose to kill each other off. when the P population gets low, we will ship another load of them there. Or maybe Antatrica and just load them ALL up and send them there for the end of them all. No one but the penquins would object.

Can you imagine how wonderful the world would be if all psychopaths were in Antartica? Little or no crime, and just a wonderful world. Maybe that is what Heaven will be like, NO Ps, in fact, that would make ANYPLACE heaven with no Ps. LOL

MariaLisa

A friend of mine with whom I was discussing sociopathy a while ago actually asked me that too: ” what would happen if you put only sociopaths together”. I couldnt really imagine the craziness the must ensue.
Like I said before I think earth would be as it was meant to be without the sociopaths. I truly believe there wouldnt be wars in the magnitude that there are. Im convinced.

blueskies

Not trusting someone ever again… I think this is a hurdle. I think, I had it wrong… the ways in which I gave my trust? It needs re-thinking …but I dont want to not be able to do it. That I am sure of. I think also that I DID know what was going on, but was in denial… it’s not about pre-empting anyone else, or a time frame, it’s about knowing yourself isnt it.I am sooooo tired. Going to bed. Lots of love to you Maria xxx I must put a stop to my wafflings!xx

blueskies

OXY: How could we Live in this world KNOWING we Did that to the poor innocent penguins!!!!!???? xxxxxxx
Goodnight Lovely.x

skylar

blueskies: you KILL me! LOL!
Maria Lisa: I was telling a 15 year old girl about the N – her mother asked me to because she will flirt with ANYONE.
This girl is beautiful and smart. she asked, “what happens when 2 of them MEET?”
I told her, “They are exactly like vampires, they will often collaborate to snare a victim, but one will usually be dominant and in the end, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.”
The narcissist creed: me, me, me, mine, mine, mine.

MariaLisa

blueskies
i thought i knew myself brilliantly…i lost being in touch with me WHILE he was making me more and more attached. its so weird and confusing….i know next time ill meet someone I will come on this blog and have you all test this guyt with me…is that crazy?!
have sweet dreams!!!! im going to bed too, its middle of the night!!

Skylar:
i think it would be an endless powerstruggle in a million ways and lord knows how they will end up. it would get brutal.

Oxy and everyone else too: from europe i wish you a great day and if in europe a peaceful night!

Vision

Been reading all the above post……

All so true……If you let someone disrespect you, you cannot respect yourself…..

I have had my share of getting it through my thicker skull that I have been with a SP…..made excuses, etc but as I read on and applied the consul , realizing that the last 9 months are unhappy ones, in limbo, and certainly not a loving relationship, I found it finally sinking in…

Yes, despite the proof, I had to make sure……And so much of others experience and wisdom helped to see how he really was…

The control was the biggest proof…..My details I have expressed before but much the same as us all….

I have spent the last two months still attached but it was like allowing it to really make me believe. If I didn’t really believe then I couldn’t make the conclusion….

After he stood me up, after a nice weekend the week before, standing me up and not calling….a simple courtesy call…..he was nasty the next day when I asked for respect…..He said he had just hung out and it was his business….wow…..So I told him that what I do from now on was my business…..

I spent the next few days studying very hard about what he had just done…plus other things that weekend…..and I realized all the good I had done for him really was not appreciated at all..

That he doesn’t love me…..that he is all the things we speak of on this site….His control over me……and the funny thing is that after all this time, it was like an epiphany ….

I had spent months wondering, hurt, crying, trying, showing love, thinking he had to be different….I wrote several posts as well here, that showed his cruelty, etc….We know the reasons why I kept myself blind…..I just couldn’t believe it….

But I kept reading here…….After feeling so utterly alone and so disappointed….not really heart broken since I had already went through the hurt of that earlier, but kept thinking he would change…..since his excuse was he had been so hurt before he didn’t want to fall in love….that this explained why he changed and started to hold back….

I know it was the last thing he did, not much different, but just that the full reality of what he did and really seeing it, made the difference to me……that there was no excuse for it…

and then, I was suddenly tired of the game, tired and worn out, and I realized that I was abusing myself. That maybe I felt I was not worthy of love and respect. That I couldn’t respect myself letting this person disrespect me.

So when he called, I told him that he disrespected me and when he does that, then I cant respect myself if I allow it…..he was dead silent…..not a sound…and no remorse, no I am sorry, but that it was his business….so the proof is all there….

And this is the first time I know that I can forget him…I think of him now as a nobody….a person not worth my energy or of me even thinking anymore about him…..He isn’t a big deal….In this world of honorable men, why oh why do we waste our time with them….

Of course we need to heal…..Happily, I have had only 9 months of this…..If I continue with the crab walk he does, forward then backward, then I am in his control. And when we don’t make decisions when we should, well, life makes them for us and most of the time they are most unpleasant….

Do I want to “hang” in there and still be involved with my heart and he tells me he has met someone else and it is over….Torturing me? I believe he has someone else anyhow but do I hide and not want to know? Do I? Yes….

I don’t like him anymore…I realize he doesn’t know what love is, he is lost himself, and that his love script is his wonderful love he showed his ex who hates him after all the loving and great things he did for her”……Even if a person is hurt from past love, they don’t treat you like crap because they “don’t want to fall in love because they were so hurt before”….

Now to continue in the healing and finding myself again….

It is a new world and I am no lonelier then I was before being with him…..while I was thinking of him and waiting, he was out laughing and having fun with no thoughts other then control about me…..

Now I take control back…..ahhhh, what a good feeling…..peace and my love for myself…..

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