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By | April 23, 2008 52 Comments

The opposite of love is … what?

Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel is just one person who has said the following: “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference”. In other words, the opposite of love is not hate, as might have been expected. We’ve all heard this contention and been struck by it. Yes, we’ve thought, it is terrible to be ignored. (Pretty awful being hated too, of course.)

But I’m grateful to Dawn Eden for mentioning another powerful proposition.

Eden, promoting her book ‘The Thrill of the Chaste’, is currently visiting Canadian high schools.

The students seemed interested when I told them what Pope John Paul II called “the opposite of love.” It’s not hate, as some of them guessed when I asked them what they thought it would be, nor is it indifference. It’s use.

“People sometimes use people because they hate them,” I said. “But you don’t have to hate someone to use them. That’s why use is more dangerous than hate. You can use someone while fooling yourself into thinking you love them.”

On reading this I immediately thought of the life stories told at Lovefraud. This concept of love vs use seems to have much promise when it comes to making sense of life with a psychopath. For instance a minor change of the last sentence by Eden goes as follows: “You can use someone while fooling them into thinking you love them”.


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Warrior

Too early in the morning for me to fully assimilate all of this, but I’m bowled over by the absolute simplicity, yet absolute powerfulness, of the statement. I need to think on it.

Yes, use is it.

I always felt used, and then I was used up.

I instinctively knew I was being “managed” – manipulated-
I knew it all along. But I guess my own need for a friend and my genuine feelings overrided the truth.

I recall I even told the psycho I knew he was “managing” me….that just pissed him off. Objects are to objecytified, not answer back– I was only to provide positive feedback when I didn’t,I was discarded, but I continue to be smeared by him. It’s not enough I was used,I have to be destroyed because I refuse to be recycled.

Thank God- I am away from that psycho.

ps

The use point is HUGE for me. That was my stumbling block in understanding how this person was NOT my friend despite the “attention” I was given. It made no sense- until I GOT I was just an ear. There was a non-sexual relationship, despite his desire, so he used me to listen.

I mean for hours droning on about his interests, opinions, conspiracy theories (oh boy- those were ridiculous) all about him every day. He had NO interest in me at all- never asked me anything- except “How are you?” And then trailed off into whatever he wanted…if I dared say how I was…I knew there’d be silence and an immediate hang-up. I was the equivalent of phone-sex ( NO SEX talk) …I mean I was just there to listen to him when he wanted. I called him ONCE of my own volition I recall and purposefully asked if he could chat, he said yes. I mentioned something about my day-I did this b/c I wanted equal time, he said he had to go. WTF

It blows my mind I put up with this, and I took the same txt from someone else after him. Both people claimed to hold superior views in every topic from mine. I was to be a student. The second person was nicer, did listen for a bit to me, but then proceeded to treat me like a child- despite an age difference and the fact I have much morelife experience.

I tolerated this use because I guess I thought they’d get around to being friends, that they were eccentric. Nope just bores- one a psycho too. And looking back I have had a few friends like this. I should be a psychologist apprently I am excellent at listening and am used to not expressing an opinion. : )

This brings to mind a recent study where people who scored high on a psychopathy inventory were asked about their emotional experience. These “psychopaths” reported the same affection, trust etc. as everyone else. I believe that they feel power and label it love.

Dodged that’s hard- I see mine way too often- sometimes everyday.

OK- and I have been no contact almost a yr. What I do– scan…glaze over where psycho is until I am past.

DO NOT LOOK DIRECTLY AT A PSYCHo…sort of like the sun.

And sometimes I keep my gaze directed down when I know I may see psycho….plus I make every reasonable effort to avoid them. I have altered my life a bit. And I hope to make a move soon that will rid me of them once and for all,but that may not happen. In the mean time- I know I am happier just rerouting my life a bit. Try it.

Ox Drover

That study makes “sense” that the Ps would report “affection” and “trust” and “Love”–these are words that represent concepts, and they know the WORDS but not the “feelings” that go with them, so they associate A FEELING with that word but it is not the same feeling that WE would associate with the same word.

Dr. Hare mentioned one P-woman who said “Of course I love my children!” but had no idea that FEEDING them or any nursturing behavior would have been associated with the WORD “love” in anyone’s mind.

I think, using BOTH of the very concise and precise phrases, that the opposite of LOVE is not hate, but INDIFFERENTLY USING someone. Incorporating both these ideas into one concept makes more sense than either alone, though both are true in their own ways.

To me, LOVE is an ACT, not just a “squishy” feeling caused by hormones. The Bible tells us to “Love your enemies” but it is not suggesting that we have a “Squishy” feeling about that enemy, but to ACT GOOD toward them rather than vengefully and hatefully.

Using someone is of course a BAD ACT, with or without the hormonally-induced “squishy” feelings, therefore, Using someone is NOT LOVE. Indifference to someone is also NOT LOVE because it is NOT a POSITIVE ACT. So USING & INDIFFERENCE are NOT =LOVE.

I can be indifferent to you, as I walk by you on the street, because I dont know you. If you are say, instead of just walking by me, you are lying on the street bleeding and I walk by and do not offer assistance, I think this is MORE THAN JUST ORDINARY INFIFFERENCE, but CALLOUSNESS instead. So CALLOUSNESS to suffering of another is also NOT LOVE.

I think the P is all of the above, he/she is indifferent to others, callous to other’s sufferings, and uses others, and none of those equal “love.”

I too felt totally used. Not at first, but I did start to feel that way and brought it to his attention. He said, “dont say that…”

then when I found out he was HIV positive, it all made sense. He was infact using me. He was never going to tell me. The callousness he showed after I found out was unimaginable. To this day he has showed zero remorse or guilt. He’ll never ever empthasize with they way that made me feel. How could he? If he could, he would have never exposed me the way he did.

It is a hopeless case. He is a hopeless case.

It’s hard to be indifferent to someone that could have killed you.

I still feel hate sometimes when I think too much about it.

I havent seen him in months….but I expect to….soon. He’s moving back to this town after a 3 month break.

O joy.

I’m trying not to let it bother me, but i remember what it was like running into him often after the fact. That dark cloud looming overhead every where I go.

It was nice knowing I wasnt going to run into him.
Any advice on how to handle seeing him again is appreciated.

Ox Drover

Dodged,

I wish I could tell you how to not feel that anger about someone so callously trying to kill you—at least I don’t have to see my P-son face to face, and tha tis a good thing. The Trojan Horse P, I can look at face to face, because I never loved him or trusted him much, so not a big emotional attachment loss like you must feel.

HWS’s technique might be effective for you, I sure can’t think of a better one if you run into him. I think hers is sort of like my “potted plant” treatment, just act like they aren’t there or that yo don’t even see them. Hard I know if you are still feeling the anger.

Giving up on the anger is difficult and some days I feel like mine is gone, then it will sneak back out for a day or so, or even a few minutes. I don’t DENY that it is there, but I just deal with it…yep, I’m angry, but I don’t want to dwell on it. Not DENY the anger, can’t do that either, but admit it and that I don’t want to feel that, because it only hurts ME, not them. They don’t CARE if you are angry, and sometimes they LIKE you being angry, it proves that you NOTICE THEM. They are important to you (even if in a negative sense) they would rather be noticed with anger than ignored. That’s why NC is so frustrating to them.

This article may sum up a few things for my problems: I have a terrible time being indifferent — to anyone. I mean, even to people just in visual range. 🙁

I’m hyper people-aware. Was writing about that last night. And always worrying about people I know, can’t let go of the people I love, can’t let them stay angry with me (today my oldest daughter said “you drove me crazy with your f’n forgiveness” and we started laughing. I never allowed her to stay angry without trying to talk it over with her. Without trying to make up — even if it sometimes meant taking more than the fair share of my blame.

Why? I’m SQUISHY, as Ox-D would say. And love is an action, one that I totally believe in. Which is why it’s so hard for me to really give my heart to people — because it stays with them.

Hope all is well with you ladies today.

Ox Drover

Orphan,

you brought up another point–when you LOVE SOMEONE you don’t want them to be angry with you, or to hate you.

When we love someone we are concerned if we make them mad, hurt them, etc. and we SURE don’t want them to hate us.

The Ps on the other hand are kind of like that creature on a Star Treck episode that LIVED OFF THE CREW’S EMOTIONS AND ANGER. Ps are not concerned if they make us angry, or if they hurt us. We on the other hand are tying to “tix” the situaation so they won’t be angry with us. THEY don’t care if we are upset, as long as THEY GET CONTROL.

The battle is pretty one-sided with a P, they have all the weapons (we can’t hurt them and they can’t bleed emotionally) we have no weapons and all the vulnerability, because WE Do “bleed” when they stab us.

Kind of a one-sided battle isn’t it? We’re the only one who can be injured, and they have all the weapons—and we don’t even have any defenses. I think I don’t want to play that “game” any more. NC FOREVER! POWER TO US! (shaking upraised fist here!) LOL

Yes, we do bleed. I find myself feeling terrible for even talking about him on here, even though it’s anonymous and nobody knows me or who I’m talking about!

And yet what we share here happened TO us. We didn’t ask for it. We entered into these relationships with the best of hope and only the knowledge they would actually give us – some of it turning out to be lies – and lots and lots of pain along the way.

It is the story of us as much as it is the story of the other person, and we own our experiences, not only what was done to us but how we responded.

If they had told us the truth (assuming they could) how differently we would have reacted. Had I known going in that he had issues or problems, that he would be saying things and doing things that hurt me but maybe were not intentional or meant to harm, I know I would have wanted to help him. But the reality is, I couldn’t have helped him. I would have been able to understand all of this better, though.

But are they even capable of not devaluing you, discarding you eventually? That’s how they do things, right? Mine left FOUR times…and each time was an example from the Commitmentphobia book. Literally. The book gave only three ways they leave — stage a fight, pull a Houdini or slowly remove themselves from every part of the relationship, piece by piece.

The very first time we stopped seeing each other, he staged a fight. A few years later, a Houdini. A few years after that, another Houdini. This last time, he slowly pulled out emotionally, then withdrawal of intimacy, then the snide comments, distance and devaluation started.

When I read that in the book in the spring of 2007, it was like someone dumped a glass of water on me.

I knew then it would only be a matter of time, again.

There were so many times he acted as though he hated me, he did things that seemed like he wanted to hurt me. It was unfathomable to me, wanting to hurt the person you claimed to love.

I tried to break NC last night, for a long story I won’t go into. He hasn’t responded. I truly don’t think he will. Please don’t tell me it was stupid because I already know…but I really have been bleeding lately.

alohatraveler

LilOrphan,

You are “bleeding” alot lately. I wouldn’t want to see you hemmorage. Keep trudgeing forward with NC. It is the only way. I never had even one satisfying communication with BM no matter how much I was hurting or how much I needed him. I bet this is true for you. If he has moved on, be HAPPY! That is something to celebrate. When they move on, it’s not because there is somethign wrong with us… it is because there is something right with us.

Aloha!

alohatraveler

Regarding this post topic:

I am going to keep my focus on the first statement.

“You can use someone while fooling YOURSELF into thinking YOU love THEM.”

The healing lies within me… not him and what he was doing. I know all about him inside and out.

Since many of us seem to share the same nature, I am willing to bet we ALL have heard this one spoken to us: You can’t love someone else until you love yourself.

But what about me? I fooled MYSELF into thinking I loved a man that was abusing me and if I am honest, it didn’t take that long to realize that… but I was using him to fill a void, to feel validated as a woman, to have attention even if it was negative attention because it had been a long time since that much attention was on me.

I don’t care why Bad Man did what he did anymore. I only care about me.

Anyone want to join me?

aloha –

Pretty good line about the bleeding. I won’t be trying to contact him again. The attempt wasn’t about getting anything back from him – you are right about the times I’ve tried to talk to him or get him to see how what he did hurt me were rather pointless and only hurt more. He already knew what he was doing was hurting me. Sometimes it felt like the entire point of whatever particular exercise it was!

It wasn’t about me wanting or needing anything, although I do freely admit to missing the good things between us. Instead, it was precipitated by something specific that made me think he was in danger or serious mental trouble.

I have no earthly clue exactly what his demons are. Some of his actions fit perfectly with the P and N traits. Others did not, and there always seemed to be something more going on there. Some inner torture that he knew about but couldn’t fight.

I also wanted to lay claim to my piece of the story – my own faults and failings that need work on in order to be with someone healthy who wants a real relationship and is capable of one.
When we parted, I saw the fault as pretty much being all him. And, honestly, 90 percent of it was. But at least ten percent if not more was my own way of handling or not handling my own fears and feelings.

It felt right to admit that to the universe and to him, as a start on the work I need to do within. It was my gesture of love to myself and to care for the person I originally thought he was.

Just something specific that happened that evening which made me feel he was in some sort of real trouble. Not that he had moved on.

Ox Drover

The”bleeding” part, and it being “internal” bleeding, is I think part of what others also don’t get—because our bleeding, our hemmoraging, is NOT “Visible” to others, it makes it difficult for ANYone to see just how much pain we are in, or how in danger our SELVES are from the P experience.

Yes, Orphan, I can relate to your wanting to admit the part that YOU played in it (the whole thing) I used to DREAM long conversations with my mother, with my son, with my X-BF where I was always trying to “explain” myself in these dreams. I wouldn’t let myself do it in the daylight for real, but my mind NEEDED, WANTED to do so, so that came out in my dreams. They were sooooo REAL it was almost like I had been with them during the night.

I think sometimes I did a great deal of my healing at night in my dreams—-some of them actually I cherish and still vividly remember. ONe night my beloved deceased step father came to me in the dream and told me that HE understood where I was coiming from, and you know, I know if I had had the chance to TELL HIM, he WOULD have understood and stood beside me through all this craziness.

Don’t beat yourself up Orphan, I definitely think I know where you are coming from. ((((hugs)))))

It’s strange – I do l explain myself to others. Just couldn’t do it with him, because he would often walk away as another typical abusive means of avoiding intimacy.

He really wasn’t open to any kind of meaningful discussion after the honeymoon period. Ever. Even basic conversation two involved people would share: things from the past that have informed your current experiences, happy memories, etc. He even refused to comment further after making a negative comment about a job offer I had! Who does that? Someone messed-up.

That’s when it was clear he did not want to grow the relationship into anything meaningful and real. That he only was acting that way until he had me “hooked” and then the reality came out.

I explain myself all the time -often whether my loved ones want to know or not. Remember the comment from my oldest how I used to drive her nuts with MY forgiveness?

She was a handful and could argue like a lawyer. She’d do something wrong – you’d call her on it with clear-cut evidence and before you knew it, suddenly you were arguing over YOUR own failings! Or something that happened five years ago!

Anyway, we had our share of fights. Thing is, within minutes, I am always instantly sorry about fighting with someone! I can’t stand to have negative emotions between us and things unspoken….

Experiencing the kind of childhood I had, you grow up realizing that only evil can grow in darkness. That sunlight is the best disinfectant for any situation, and truth, even painful truth, is preferable to lies.

If people want to grow in a relationship and for the relationship to actually be an intimate one, they do not hide from one another or lie about how they’re feeling. That’s how I operate, anyway, with my kids, close friends and birth-parents. We tell the truth to each other, with love.

It’s the exact opposite of how my FOO operated, and the relationships between my girls and all three of us are much stronger, much closer because of that.

I’d rather just get everything out into the open, wrestle with it and move on, instead of letting it simmer in darkness and perhaps turn out worse in the long run.

And OxD, I have conversations with my deceased family members — not always while sleeping. I go commune with them at the cemetery where they’re all together. I often look to memories of them for guidance and for sustenance when in pain. My uncle, in particular, as we were very close and he was an amazingly giving human being to family and strangers.

All of these things, telling our truths with love, fostering relationships that allow for that kind of safety in communication, even dream communications, are healthy and healing.

peggywhoever

Hi Ladies:

Sorry to sort of change the subject but I have to run to work and have only a minute. This morning I have been looking at u-tube videos by Gavin de Becker who wrote the book, “The Gift of Fear”. I believe his advice is immensely powerful, and potentially life-saving. These links are from Prime Time and Oprah. Gavin says, “listen to your intuition”. Below are the links. Happy day! Peggy Pseu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1U8G1dOCLs
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cA3vaRNH8A
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38hFr96pTO4
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 3

EVIDENTLY THERE IS NO PART 4…at least I couldn’t find it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ZYc_6nL9Q
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYnFbHNvhkM
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 6

“True fear is always in something that you sense…worry is always something in your imagination or your memory”. — Gavin de Becker

Do NOT question your own sanity. LISTEN to your own intuition.

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGS7Jmd00c

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NAIWIe9Y7k&feature=related

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocLGSJZtxT0&feature=related

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PEW8R3Tzhk&feature=related

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_s8U7Z0zQE&feature=related

Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydj4my0kiwg&feature=related

alohatraveler

LilOrphan,

We all have things to work through. No one is perfect. I made a few immature moves with Bad Man but.. he IS NOT the person to admitt these things to.. he IS NOT the person to work these things out with.

I do not see any value in admitting your faults or wrong doings to someone that has disordered behavior. This is what you need to learn… who is someone to trust with your inner being. You are saran wrap.. I am transparent. I am learning that I do not need to share my inner workings with the whole world. This is a boundary issue. And there are many many people who are unsafe to do this with. And it is immature and unfair of me to expect people to do right with my sharing of inner me… or to even burden people with knowing all about me… They don’t need to know.

This was a pattern I had with BM. I told him ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ABOUT ME. He required “total tranparency” in the relationship.. which was no problem at all for me! I gave each and every thing he used to attack about my character.

I used to be the person that would share with my co-workers the mistakes I made thinking that they would see how smart I was because in the end, I worked it all out. Instead, they thought I was incompetent. I just went through something like this at work… a small thing could have easliy been a BIG thing but I had to bite my tongue off so that I would SHUT UP. I thought I was showing people that I was human or something.. I don’t know where I got these ideas.

I also am guilty of thinking that there is some big thing in the Bad Man that even he knows is there and he just can’t quite get a handle on it… but maybe if I help him… subtext… then he will be the good guy that I wanted to be with and he will be thankful to me because I am the one who helped through the terrible fog he’s in… the poor dear.. and he will see how devoted and dedicated I am… STOP IT LILORPHAN!

Boy are you stubborn!

He is not your problem. If he get’s cancer, don’t you go looking for a cure. Leave him be. The universe will take care of him… you need to take care of you only. That is your job right now… to JUST TAKE CARE OF YOU. He is none of your business.. and BE GLAD!!!

I am telling you this because I you are one of my LOVE FRAUD LADIES and I care about you.

It sounds like you are still spending a lot of time thinking about his innner-workings. He is a disordered Bad Man. Maybe you aren’t sure which kind but let that go. HE IS A BAD MAN. PERIOD.

I mean you are having a steady stream of dates with good men… HELLO?! Does anyone want to whack LilOrphan over the head right now?! I just had a dream last night that I was falling in love with a man… it was awesome… we were talking and laughing and smooching.. it was great! That is the most action I have had in 2 years!

Get out there and ENJOY your dates. BAD MAN IS NOT THE ONE FOR YOU… if he was.. you wouldn’t hanging out here at LF!

alohatraveler

LilOrphan,

I skipped over your second post… but I just read it. I do think that open communication is good, of course!

But there is a clue there in what you said… that your daughter said you are driving her insane with your explantions and forgiveness or something like that. Why do you have to explain yourself? Are you justifying your feelings? I don’t think you have to do that.

I used to explain my entire life history to a guy when I was dating him. I no longer will do that. They don’t need to be in love with me and my mistakes of 20 years ago. I want to be loved for who I am now… how I got here is my business.

That’s just my take. Of course, I do share about my life but I just don’t dump my bucket as a friend used to say. And I don’t, in theory, share prematurely… I say in theory because it is always a work in progress.

This is one of my takes on growing and becoming the woman I am today… a friend was telling me “that’s just who I am” about something that wasn’t working for him. I think as we mature, one thing we have to do is look at who we are and if we see something that is not working in our lives related to “who we are” we need to work on that. My friend didn’t get this for awhile and so he continued to be “who I am” and he continued to have the same problems.

It wasn’t working for me to be the open book that I was.. it’s against my nature to be different but I work hard at it. It certainly didn’t work to give BM ammunition over and over and over to attack me with. HE PROVED himself unworthy of that information and even as I becamse FULLY aware of that and even verbalized it to someone… so I had FULL awareness and admission… I continued to share in the minutest detail… everything about me and he continued to attack me with my vulnerabilities which I handed to him, gift wrapped and on a platter with much fan fare… WTF?

I can’t believe I did this. But I am learning!

Ox Drover

Aloha,

WOW! Lady, you cut right to the chase! I totally AGREE WITH YOU, and I think you said it consisely and precisely…Orphan, I think you should listen to Aloha on this one. Yea, it’s blunt, but if WE can’t be blunt with each other as we get mostly out of the FOG who can be blunt with us! I think sometimes we really NEED THAT ‘WHACK up side the head” (lovingly given as it was) WAKE UP SWEETIE!

If my son was about to step off a cliff and I knew it I WOULD NOT WARN HIM, I am NOT responsible for what happens to him, HE IS. It is NOT my job to watch over him and keep bad things from happening to him, if he is depressed and suicidal, that is his problem not mine. I can’t fix him, I can’t protect him, and God alone knows what a violent and unsafe environment he is in in prison–he’s a small white guy in a populati n of latino and black guys the size of mountains who are NOT in there for singing too loudly in the church choir, so if he gets hurt, (and he has been seriously injured in the past) what’s that to ME? HE put himself in this kind of environment for violence of his own, so now he doesn’t have a gun to protect himself from the people just like him who are BIGGER and BADDER and don’t like uppity little white guys with big mouths who are half their size. Oh, well….that’s NOT my problem, now is it?

If your BM has problems, even horrible problems, WHOSE PROBLEMS ARE THEY? Who put him in the position to have those probems? Whose responsibility is it to fix his problems?

Yes, you are a nice woman, a caring woman, but WHY are you caring about someone who wouldn’t pi$$ on you if you were on FIRE! Even if HE set the fire! LOL

Hang in there, Orphan, you are making progress! I think most of us are in my opinion doing GREAT and each day a little more insight into another aspect comes along. ((((hugs)))))) from nurse Rachett!

aloha and OxD:

I didn’t explain that well. The “driving her nuts with forgiveness” was actually not allowing us to seethe quietly for days on end, to not go to bed angry.

I didn’t explain myself to her, but required both girls to state what they’re feeling and ways we could compromise. I called it “judges chambers” or something like that, where we were permitted to share with each other whatever the worst of the worst was we were feeling, get it out in the open. She actually appreciates it now, but felt annoyed with it then.

I’m an open book here in anonymity and was with him, years ago. This time NOT SO MUCH. But, yeah, I am stubborn and run by instincts, particularly empathy and nurturing instincts.

LOL about work and admitting mistakes. I do tend to do that, also, and also to solve them myself, usually first.

And don’t worry, it was a one-time break in NC. Won’t be happening again. I read my old journals again….I know which side of the fence I’m on for life.

rperk6069

LilOrphan

I broke the “there is a very good reason for no contact” rule back in Oct. He was in jail, I thought I was “safe” from my emotions since I had not seen him in 7 months and lets face it, he was in jail. I was wrong but I also learned-once again why no contact FOREVER is especially important. My caring feelings came right back and the whole sick thing was, he didn’t care & well, he just didn’t care and I knew he wouldn’t. He was very nice, very seductive, he was setting me up to use me ONCE again and asked me to bail him out of jail. Nope, I did not bail him out.

I went because I wanted to see some kind of remorse, I wanted him to acknowledge what he had done to me, I wanted him to say he was sorry, I wanted alot of things like closure, which I was never going to get. I wanted to once again explain my feelings to him, try to make him understand how much he hurt me and to make everything alright. Again, it wasn’t going to happen. Ever!

I also feel like I have to explain myself to EVEYRONE, to justify myself (which by the way, I don’t do very good). I too am working on being able to say no, without explaining myself or trying to justify myself. I am doing much better but have much more work to do. I also agree with Aloha. Take care

almost_free

Aloha & OxD,

I so needed to read your comments to LilOrphan. I know he is a bad man, but I still cannot help myself with wanting closure from him, with wanting him to feel some emotions, some pain, some remorse. I know, I need to have NC, but I can’t help myself. I send him an email that has emotion involved and he completely ignores it, which causes me even more pain.

It’s almost like I’m asking for it, and I just cannot accept the fact that he is a BAD MAN, that he discarded me quite easily and that I will NEVER get any closure from him. It’s like someone needs to shake me and snap me out of trying to help this disordered man with his myriad of problems.

I can’t seem to help to continue to have hope that he will come around, that he will see the light. I have to stop this malignant hope. It really gets me nowhere.

Even though the divorce was final a week ago, I still feel as though I am completely stuck. I can’t seem to move forward right now. I thought I was, and then I have contact with him, and I’m thrown right back into being stuck. I know, NC is key, I need to take care of myself first, etc, but it’s so hard!

He is just plain evil. There is no goodness in him at all. It is the cold, hard truth. His cruelty is astounding. I am forced to see him because we have children. My daughter told me she wants him to move away. I wish he would.

I told someone today that yes, I still love him. What is wrong with me? How could I love someone that was so deceitful for years? Someone that emotionally abused me, and used me so horribly.

This is what he said when he told me he was leaving: “You get what you can out of someone and then it’s time to move on”. Word for word, that is what he said. This is truly the opposite of love: use.

So, please someone tell me why I could possibly care about this person at all!!

alohatraveler

almost_free,

Most likely you loved him because what ever it was that he said during the phase of hooking you was EXACTLY what you had always wanted beyond your wildest dreams… or something like that.

There was some irresistable shiny hook that us deeply imbedded.

When I left the Bad Man, I did think that I still loved him but I don’t now nor do I think I ever truly loved him. You said something spo perfect: His cruelty is astounding.

Focus on the statement everything you start to go down the road that makes you believe you still love him. How would you feel about your BM if he was with your best friend and she told you of his cruelty? What would you say then? Chances are, your best friend has been trying to get through to you but you aren’t listening… switch places for a bit and pretend you are talking to her and trying to help her.

I didn’t mean to pick on LilOrphan… I have been described at an empathic person… very nurturing, “too nice.” I relate to the thing that Orphan is saying… I have been through all these things.

I knew there was something different about me but I didn’t know what it was… and I knew whatever it was… it wasn’t working for me. It was boundaries. I did not understand what boundaries were. And, I easily took on the pain of others… this even manifested in my body work when I was doing that. If my client had neck pain, I would end up with the same neck pain after working on them. If their body was in a lot of pain, I felt like I would throw up when I worked on them. This was boundaries again.. no separation between myself and others. If this sounds crazy, ask your Masage Therapist the next time you treat yourself to a day at the spa.

Anyway, I only want to help. I don’t want to upset anyone and I relate so much to LilOrphan because I have been there… and I feel lucky that I was able to put an ocean bectween myseld and BM. If I had not done that I am sure I would have wasted more time on him. A friend of mine called him an emotional black hole.. YES!

As far as closure and apologies… forget it ladies. They will not give this to us in any satisfactroy manner. We have to find a way to let this idea ago. They will not ever understand how much they hurt us but worse yet, THEY DO NOT CARE.. because life is all about them.

We must care for our own well being.

alohatraveler

sorry about the typos.

I don’t feel “picked on” aloha. You’re not saying anything wrong or anything I haven’t told myself a million times — and not just regarding this situation!!

Being overly nice is as much a lifelong trait as any other. Did you hear it growing up, from people? From your parents, and were as sometimes, that you were too soft, too kind-hearted, going to get walked-on in life? Or, the classic: “You’re too sensitive!” from adults when we were little.

I developed this really hard shell, funny, snide and sarcastic. That’s part of who I am, too, but a lot of it was used to protect myself.

Look at you, even…telling me the stark reality that I need to toughen-up, create better boundaries…and then feeling bad and kind of apologizing for saying it!! That’s pretty much exactly what I’d do with someone, in that same order.

With everyone else but him I had boundaries, even though I do let my family override them sometimes. But nobody else.

We are works in progress, right? I’ve learned a lot from this whole experience, about where I need to really work on myself and realizing there’s so much room for growth and becoming a better person. Even about the ways I lied to myself along the way.

I appreciate your candor. My closest friends in real life are very different people from each other but they share one thing in common: they tell me the truth, without fail.

Warrior

Telling the truth and then knowing you must act on it yourself can be one of the hardest lessons of all. We are all amazing people in this growth process and helping each other is what will make the difference for all of us.

Our biggest fear may be that we actually are as strong as we know we are.

We will survive and grow and be whom we are meant to be. Peace to you all.

Ox Drover

Almost _free

Quote: “I can’t help myself”

YES YOU CAN! And believe it or not, you CAN control your thinking and your emotions….they don’t just come out of “no where” and “sweep uncontrollably over us”—Warrior is right, we ARE, REPEAT, ARE POWERFUL!

Start out simple. Like if you are irritated at a slow driver on the road and can’t get around it—feel the irritation in your stomach—NOW, you can CHOOSE to stay irritated, mad, upset, or you can say “There’s nothing I can do about the traffic, so I will just sit back and enjoy the day.” IT WORKS.

IT TAKES PRACTICE, but start small and work up to the “big stuff”

When you start feeling your gut telling you something–listen, but just like you “controlled” your gut by IGNORING THE RED FLAGS, you can CONTROL your gut when it is telling you that you “love the bad man”—

TALK to yourself in POSITIVE TERMS–preach to yourself if you need to, rant, rave, pound the pulpit! If you hear it enough, you will start to really believe it.

I AM POWERFUL

I WILL NOT LET THE P RUIN MY LIFE

THE P DOES NOT LOVE ME

THE P WILL NEVER ADMIT THEY ARE EVIL

I DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE TRASH

THE P TREATED ME LIKE TRASH

Etc etc.

Today is my “stand up or shut up” day—I have to go and enforce a boundary–and when I made the boundary, I was all wishy washy, and teary eyed, afraid I would “offend”—but the boundary is REASONABLE, and has now been violated and I have to go and ENFORCE it–and you know, I am NOT teary eyed, and I quite frankly don’t give a rat’s behind if I offend. I HAVE BEEN OFFENDED, it is OKAY FOR ME TO stand up for myself, and ENFORCE A REASONABLE BOUNDARY. If the person who has made this “enforcement” necessary is OFFENDED and is no longer my “friend” WHAT HAVE I LOST? NOTHING but my perception of their friendship.

It is MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY in this instance, because it is a situation that I cannot tolerate or ignore.

I’m going to put on my “big girl panties” and act like an adult. WHOOOIE!

Warrior

You go, OxDrover! You’ve got a posse behind you if you need it!

Ox Drover

Thank you Warrior—believe me, I felt the presence of my posse behind me!

Well, I just got back from my “enforcement” round, and I am really proud of myself (that sound you hear is me patting myself on the back!)

The situation is that my late husband’s closest friend, has a dog that is a pit bull dog and kills cats and other small animals just for sport, the man keeps him on a chain most of the time, but the dogs (there are two of them) get off on a regular basis and show up at my door as I am letting my small dog (who thinks he is 10 ft. tall and bullet proof) out to go to the bathroom, or sometimes I leave him tethered for for a while.

My friend’s dog is very prescious to him and he dotes on the dog. The dog however is dangerous to MY dog’s life and I think that MY dog should be able to go out into HIS OWN yard to pee witout being in mortal danger. I have spoken to Owner of said dog on 4 occasions recently when the dogs showed up at my door.

Today, I went again for the “final” confrontation before taking further action.

I confronted my friend “nicely” but firmly and the response was “well, I’m doing the best I can” (he keeps his dogs chained but they get off about once a week, and last night at 4:30 a.m. I went to let my dog out and there was Fido out there with slavering jaws just daring my dog to come out. Fortunately, I was able to restrain my dog. I called the owner to come get him, but he didn’t answer his phone so I had my son take the dog home and chain him up.

This morning Owner called me watning to know why I called him at 4:30 a.m. and I told him. He said, “well I heard the phone but decided not to answer it.” I said “well, sometimes when you get a call at 4:30 in the morning it is because there is some sort of emergency that you need to take care of.”

Anyway, Owner said to me when I told him he MUST keep his dog up, “I’m doing the best I can.” I replied (keeping my cool) “well, apparently the best is not working, and I cannot tolerate the results, so let’s think of another solution. How about a pen.? Do you think that is an unreasonable alternative?” He replied “No” and so then assured me that he would buy a pen.

I was nice, but did firmly set the consequences of his dog attacking MY dog on MY front porch, and that was death for his dog (in this area there is no leash law, or animal control, but if an animal is attacking you, your dog or your livestock, you have a perfect right to kill it on the spot. I have exercised that right several times after warning the owners that their dogs were being a problem and they refused to keep them up. I have had baby calves chewed to pieces by multiple packs of dogs, both ferrel and pet dogs.

Anyway, I am proud of myself, not only for SETTING the boundary, and ENFORCING it, but for not being anxious and guilty feeling that I have to allow someone else’s unreasonable and irresponsible behavior to risk MY dog’s life
in MY front yard.

It’s certainally not the dog’s fault that he is bred for killing, and not his fault that his owner is not taking adequate precautions to keep him confined in his own yard, but I have set the boundary for Owner of said dog, and I think I’m being more than reasonable. Pity is, if the Owner doesn’t follow up, then the dog gets the consequences. I just don’t intend for it to be MY dog that gets the consequences for someone else’s irresponsible behavior.

Well, the socio is back. Thought he was coming back next month, but he’s back now. I saw him out at the local bar this weekend. I saw him hanging with some people that I did not know, dancing around and singing to karoke like he was happy as a lark. Then he saw me, and continued….but eventually as he saw I was with my friends and my friends were giving him dirty looks, he eventually left the room. He was visibly uncomfortable. I avoided I contact as much as possible, and I didnt stay around looking for him when he left the room. When I was ready, I went straight out the door and home. It shook me up a bit, but by the end of last nite, I was fine. And today, I’m ok. I just know now that he is infact back, and chances are that I am going to run into him. Not only at place I frequent, but during the work week as well, since he works so close and uses public transportation as I do. Everything in my life right now is great. I love my job. I moved into a new place and I love it. Minus the fact that he’s back in town, live is good. I just have to make life good even though he is here- and try not to let it mess up my hapiness.

Ox Drover

Dear Dodged,

YOu did great! Congratulations! I do know it can be tough seeing them, seeing them act like “nothing is going on”—obviously though, he reacted as much or more so than you did. Not shame or remorse of course, but probably afraid that you would “tip his DEADLY game”—

I’m not sure what the laws are wher eyou live but in US at least in some places having unprotected sex and/or not telling your partner when you KNOW you are HIV+ is a felony, akin to attempted murder. It isn’t all that frequently enforced but some people have been put in prison for this to protect their potential partners.

Congratulations on your holding it together so well! Shows you are moving on down the healing road!

Yes, I am in the US and I know about all the laws, and it is a crime here in my area as well. It would have been his word against mine in court, so that’s why I didnt turn him in. If he had of infected me however, I would have. I wonder what does go thru his mind when he sees me- if it’s not shame or remose, what exactly does the ‘feel’. I try not to think about it much anymore because when I was trying to figure out just how he could do this and why he acts the way he does, that’s when I realized he was a sociopath, and to realize just how warped his mind is, is quite disturbing. It’s disturbing to know someone like this. It’s disturbing to know that this person KNOWS me, and KNOWS that I KNOW what he is.

Ox Drover

BAck to the old thread of “should I warn the S’s next victim?” This puts a whole new slant on it, especially if he is having “casual” sex with others—not to warn them puts them in danger of NOT dodging the bullet. Yes, it is THEIR responsibility to practice “safer sex”—but would put ME at least in a quandry of whether or not I should warn them. Also, warning them might actually put you in DANGER from this man if his desires for sex are thwarted by your warnings to other women. It’s a mess however you look at it. I hate to thinkk the only way he can be stopped is to infect someone and then they turn him in and prosecute him.

Life is so freaking UNFAIR! The familiar cry of us all!

It is one of those “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations of being caught “between the devil and the deep blue sea”—I wish life’s answers were always black and white!

Once when I was picking wallpaper and paint for my new home, I would go and pick something and bring it home to look at, I was sure this was IT, then decide I didn’t like it and go back—again and again–trying to make a decision. Finally I said, “Oh, I wish there was only ONE wallpaper and ONE color paint, and I could just go in and say, “give me enough of THE wall paper and paint for a house this size” and NOT have to make a darned decision from so many choices. LOL

Anyway, I’m proud of your reaction and I hope that you are too! Good going girlie!

Warrior

Dodged: If this man is HIV positive and still not having a care of his sexual relations and protecting the other person, than I believe it is your civic duty to report him somehow. Whether he infected you is not the issue anymore and I’m glad you’re okay; he is still out there most likely not being honest with other people. I’m not familiar with the laws regarding this issue but I think OxDrover is on top of that in her note.

It is disturbing to think about someone not having normal feelings and that they can forget you so easily, but we’ve seen here at LoveFraud that that is what they do best.

I would suggest focusing more on yourself and how you got to this place and how far you have come and will continue to grow.

gr8ful70x7

” . . . You can use someone while fooling yourself into thinking you love them. . . .”

There is power in simplicity. And this helps explain how the sociopath fools everybody: By deceiving themselves they better perpetuate their fraud on others.

This is what makes them dangerous and POWERFUL. They forcefully project their (false) perspective onto everyone else around them and hence bamboozle all.

It is very hard to break free from the spell they cast.

I’m reading “Trauma Bonding” right now and it shows very succintly and comprehensively how & why it is so hard to break free and not repeat the past.

Sadly, it is not all “them.” But the fact it is in part “us” is empowering–to give up all the past abuse and overcome our failures NOT to relive it!

Sarah999

The opposite of Love . . .

When you love someone you care about THEIR wellbeing. You want THEM TO BE HAPPY, NOT to SUFFER, to ACHIEVE THEIR DREAMS ETC.

The opposite would be NOT CARING about THEIR well being. NOT CARING IF THEY SUFFER, IT THEY ARE UNHAPPY, IF THEY ACHIEVE THEIR DREAMS ETC.

When you have a relationship with someone, and are don’t care about their suffering, happiness, achieving their dreams & desires etc., you are EXPLOITING them.

So in my opinion the OPPOSITE OF LOVE is EXPLOITATION.
And aren’t Narcissists/Psychopaths/ASPD’s/ Sociopaths just great at EXPLOITATION?

Warrior:

“It is disturbing to think about someone not having normal feelings and that they can forget you so easily, but we’ve seen here at LoveFraud that that is what they do best. “

But then why do they come back? I don’t get that one, at all. If they don’t have feelings and they can forget you, why do they bother returning?

Ox Drover

Orphan,

When they OWN YOU, they consider you property, OR, when they no longer have anyone else, and they want to get LAID TONIGHT, they call up the “old GF” to see if they can “sweet talk her into a poke, or a place to live or a little money.”

THAT’s WHY THEY COME BACK–plus it gives them the satisfacting of knowing taht no matter how bad they were to you last time they can sTill PULL THE WOOL OVER YOUR EYES.

My mother was so surprised when the DIL and the THpP were arrested—“But they were so respectful to me!” she screamed incredilously.

I said, “they were trying to con money out of you, did you expect them to say “give me money you old bitch? How much would you have given them then?” LOL She really BELIEVED because they were “so respectful” to her. LOL ROTFL, but I was a LIAR BECAUSE I SCREAMED, “THEY ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU!”

“Shows to go you, huh?” (sic)

peggywhoever

LilOrphan:

But then why do they come back?

They come back when their current well runs dry. They come back with they “need” something. That need may be power, dominance, control, money, possessions, sex, companionship, etc. They are very selfish and they return ONLY for their own benefit, not because they love or miss us. When they become bored (and they will, because they need excitement and stimulation) they will leave again. And again. Until you set the boundary and say NO MORE…and go NC. They are void of any real love, emotions, or normal human connections and bonding. Everything with the Sociopath is an agenda…”what can I get” or “what can that person DO for me”.

It didn’t seem like he came back for money; he spent a lot of money when we were out. It didn’t seem like he came back to get anything. I mean, he’s reasonably attractive in an objective sense (totally attractive to me) and he plays music, so there were plenty of women available to him.

By the end, it seemed like he came back only to hurt me, to set me up and try to knock me down, to mind-fuck me all over again. For revenge, maybe? I have no idea. To feel better because he knew I would lift him back up again? I didn’t at first. Actually, not for a long time, because I was waiting to see what he would do, whether he was for real this time or not.

It’s baffling, to me. Reading all your posts about the terrible things these guys did, and having been a battered wife before myself, I can’t compare what he did with those things. And yet, in some ways, it is much, much worse because it is unsolvable and painful. Not, however, unpredictable, based on his past with me.

Hope dies hard, doesn’t it? Even when you try to stab it to death yourself, with reminders of everything that wasn’t ok, you still ultimately want to think the best. Well, I do, not everyone. It’s like this splits you into two minds – one that thinks the worst, and one that still clings to the best, because you are not able to think like another person — and only have your own frame of reference.

Ariadne

I think it is exactly that hope that they use to their advantage. It is more of a challenge for them to, like you said, mind fuck the victim a second time after they have seen their bad side. They know you will be harder to convince the second time around.

They want to prove that they still have control by weaseling their way into people’s lives again. I think they get a kick out of it. Pissing on someone to mark their territory and coming back to piss on them again.

Beverly

I think, it is all about oneupmanship. A mind f…k, hedging their bets, the thrill of the impossible, perhaps we have weakened – forgotten. No we havent. My ex played the mind f…k on me, got me back to get me back although I didnt realise it at the time. I dared to question him, enquire, react, I didnt play the game. When I assaulted him, he was white with rage, but he didnt get me back straight away – he waited a month, then engineered a reconciliation and then hit me with his cheating evidence – thats what I call cool calculated manipulation.

Lilorphan. I read your story under one of the other articles and I just want to give you a ((((hug)))). You are not alone here.

Ox Drover

Oh, Orphan,

You made me LAUGH–BELLY LAUGH— “Hope dies hard, even when you try to stab it to death yourself!” LOL

I swear some of you guys are so GREAT with the one-line cut through the BS saying! They are SO TRUE. Orphan, I am going to award you the “Aloha Medal of Honor” for that one, it is on a par with Aloha’s WORLD CLASS one-liners! LOL

Gosh, I can’t quit laughing over that one, and it is SOOOOO TRUE. I have worn out a 100 knives trying to stab my malignant hope to death and some/one/thing always seemed to patch it up, give it CPR and a transfusion and revive it.

My son D is starting to have a big melt down now (I sort of felt it would come sooner or later) He has has SO much responsbility (self imposed) for my safety to the point that he was not dealing with his OWN stuff like he should have. We had a long talk lately, because he was “walking on egg shells” to do ANYTHING to try to keep from hurting me, because “he said, every person in the world that you loved has shit on you, hurt you tried to kill you, I just didn’t want to do anything to hurt you in any way. You didn’t deserve that and I couldn’t add to it.”

So, we had a long talk about him setting BOUNDARIES FOR ME. I assured him that it was not only OK but ESSENTIAL that he feel free to set boundaries for me if he needed to. I wasn’t going to die, or melt down, and if Igot pissed, it was my problem not his.

Even sometimes in the most LOVING relationships we fail to get what we need, we fail to ASK FOR WHAT WE NEED because we are so scared of hurting someone that we truly love and that truly loves us back.

The ONE time he ever lied to me was a couple of years ago. He had worked at summer camp for Boy Scouts, and was frazzled at the end of the summer. I was planning on going for a trip the day he got back from camp. Time came for him to come home, and I couldn’t find him. I became worried, I called several of his friends who all said they didn’t know where he was, etc. a WEEK passed, and I was terrified that he was dead or something. I finally called one of his friends frantic that a week had gone by and he was NO WHERE to be found, told the friend I was going to call 911, and get the search dogs out for him, to try to find him. About 15 minutes later, I got a call from my son.

After camp he had NEEDED some time alone, time to reflect, etc. and rather than “hurt” me by telling me this up front, and possibly “hurting” me or having me say “NO” (which I never would have, he is an adult for goodness sake, I don’t boss him around) he went to the woods with his tent for a time of quiet solitary reflection.

After he came home, we sat and talked about this, but because his biological father was a “dry drunk” (who had never drank but had been raised in an abusive alcoholic family) and when D was young, and his father would RAGE, throw things, etc. even threw a piano up against a wall once when D was 8, D has a big problem with anger–either at him, or his own anger. His own memories of huddling scared under a stair well to escape the wrath of his raging father are still with him. His father has stopped this completely, and is a well behaved, good man now, but when D was little it was a different story, he didn’t hurt people, but he scared the crap out of them.

Setting boundaries is difficult for D, because he does not want to offend, in ANY way, those that he loves. He can’t even stand to be around when anyone else is “catching hell” for their own bad behavior. I had a hired hand once that did not have a driver’s license, and he was not allowed to drive any vehicle of mine on the road, but could drive an old clunker here on the farm….but NOT on the public road. One night after dinner, the guy went to his room here on the farm, in the back of the aircraft hangar, and I don’t know what made me “suspect something” but I walked out to see him, and found that one of my trucks was gone and the room empty.

I called the police and reported the vehicle stolen—if I hadn’t and he had had a wreck I would have been liable for “letting him”drive my vehicle and the insurance would have been VOID.

I waited up for the guy to come back, and sure enough I heard him drive into the gate and on our road inside the farm about 2 a.m. so I went out to his room, and there he was “asleep” (or pretending to me) and I asked him where he had gone in the truck. He first denied it, then said, he had drive down to the end of the runway, just to think, then when I said that was not so, he altered his lies, and finally I said, Look, I heard you come in 10 minutes ago, the due on the grass you drove over shows the path you took going and coming and let’s get this staight and yOu quit lying. Then it was of course a “Pity party” that he “just had to go for a drive to clear my mind, I was so distraught over your husband dying” etc etc and that was the END for me, I exploded in a torrent of swear words at the top of my voice and told him to get his things and to start walking off the farm because I had called the police and they were on the way to arrest him.

Even though D was furious with the hired guy, knew what I was doing (tossing him off) was correct, he had to walk away during my outburst—it brought back too many memories of him huddling under the stairs while his biological father raged.

I don’t normally go into a rage like this but it was (in my defense) only 4 months after my husband died in the fire and I wasn’t up for having the hired hand lay blame for his lies, his theft of the truck, etc. on my husband’s death. Turns out that this same guy is the one who stole my husband’s gold watch off his arm as he lay dying of burns. He had also stolen and pawned other things from the farm. Can we say P?

But setting boundaries for how others treat us is a continual thing through out life–as people in our lives change, relationships change, and circumstances change. It is something that we must learn to do. With people like the hired hand, he was just that, a hired hand, no emotional attachment, no love lost, but with my son and me, being careful to set appropriate boundaries in such a way that we can BOTH get what we need from a prescious relationship that we don’t want to damage is ESSENTIAL. We both love each other, need and want the relationship, and will both work hard to accomplish setting boundaries in a LOVING AND CARING WAY—trusting each other, knowing that we are both willing to give 110%. That’s what life and love is all about! Without boundaries things build up and become volitile…a boundary is sort of like a “relationship safety valve.”

I have tried to metaphorically to stab and cut off my emotions regarding him when things went awry. It never worked. It still doesn’t. I do not think he is a P, anymore. Not sure what his story is, but that doesn’t seem to be it. Who knows.

“Even sometimes in the most LOVING relationships we fail to get what we need, we fail to ASK FOR WHAT WE NEED because we are so scared of hurting someone that we truly love and that truly loves us back.

That is it, really. It’s only my inner circle that doesn’t face my talk-to-the-hand approach. For instance, I went out with a friend last weekend who wanted to go see Death Metal bands. Once I heard their music, I flat-out said: I would rather stab myself in the eye with glass than go to that. If you’d like to do something else, great. If not, hopefully you can find someone to go to this show with you.

But I do not love this guy. He is just a friend. Not that I would want to hurt his feelings deliberately; just that it’s easy to tell him where my lines are, or tell anyone who is not close with me, who will not be hurt by my statements.

Like I said, it’s not that I don’t know that everyone deserves to be treated well and that the word “everyone” includes me. It’s that I don’t want to hurt anyone else and have no problem accepting things as they are in life — with the exception of death metal band concerts, of course.

Ox Drover

Orphan,

If you choose to live your life trying not to “hurt” others no matter what they have done to you, that is your right as an adult to make that decision. If you choose to live with a man who beats you, that is also your right to make that decision.

I don’t think it is a healthy one for me, and I choose not to spend my life trying to keep from hurting people’s feelings when they are disrespectful or mean to me.

Oh, no, I was just agreeing with your quote – that if we fail to ask out of fear of hurting someone else we fail to get what we want, even in the best and closest relationships.

And that I have failed in the past with those in the inner circle out of fear of hurting them.

That’s all. I’d never choose to be hurt by someone. I just need to learn when to cut the cord and be sure I am going to be ok with that, in the long run, and not allow guilt to kill me.

Right now, I’m either having a near-breakdown from guilt (can’t sleep, am tormented when I do sleep, can’t really eat) or I’m having some sort of bizarre but great religious conversion that will leave me forever changed in its wake. Not sure which. Just wish I knew.

almost_free

Boundaries… I set them, I thought I was doing well, once again, and bang, I get re-traumatized again. I guess some of us just have to learn the hard way.

He phoned this week, just wanting to talk… the old “how are you?” and “I care about you”, and “I guess I have some problems”, and “I need your help with the kids when they come over”, and on and on… playing the pity game. Now he’s the victim. And, what do I do?? Totally fall for it. Tell my family he needs help. I feel true, genuine pity for him.

Then, BANG!! He leaves me a message about something, I call him back – I hear he’s at the airport, he tells me he’s picking someone up, and I can FEEL the smirk on his face. How sick is this man?? This was his weekend with his children, but he didn’t push for them to come over tonight. He continues to have sex with women that work for him… women that live overseas. He’s been doing this for 13 years.

I actually thought this week that he was going to seek help for himself, that he was at a low point and “needed” me. And, in one swift moment, it all comes clear to me again, he is nothing more than a very bad, sick man, who enjoys tormenting me and causing me pain.

My entire body starts shaking yet again – I thought I was over this. I realize this is PTSD, and I was re-traumatized so quickly, so easily.

So, yes, once again, I am going completely NC.

LilOrphan – I also need to learn when to “cut the cord”. I must just be a slow learner. Or, he’s just an incredibly good manipulator, which he is. He’s had years of practice and he has mastered it. I cannot tell you how sincere he seems – although, all of you reading this know exactly what I’m talking about.

I need to drill it into my head, he is BAD, EVIL, CRUEL. I need to stop tormenting myself with this man’s toxicity. Life is too short to let someone have so much control over me. Enough is enough.

Ox Drover

I am so frustrated with myself that I went so long before I started to even see the “trees” for the “forest”–and realize that I wouldn’t set proper boundaries on my family (close friends too) and I was always letting things build up until I went into a “secret” rant–I didn’t explode on them, I exploded on myself. It never made me feel any better though! DUH!

Now, I don’t let it build up. If you stop the irritation when it is just that, then there isn’t any reason to feel “put upon” (assuming that the person you are setting boundaries on is cooperative). If there is a REAL BIG problem all you have to do is say to yourself “this is a DEAL BREAKER” and do not look back.

For me now, a LIE is a deal breaker—enough already with the lies. If someone doesn’t respect me enough to tell me the truth, then I don’t need them in my life! Cursing me, name calling, etc are also deal breakers.

Almost_free, that’s the thing, if we are not careful to maintain NC (at least emotional NC if not physical NC) to get SUCKED in again.

It doesn’t take much to re-traumatize me at this stage, which is one reason I am SO leery of taking on other people’s problems or being around anyone who is behaving negatively. It will take TIME (how much? ???) for me to build my “reserve strength” up, just like if you had been sick a long time your physical “reserve strength” would need to be regained slowly so that you could be like you were before you got sick. I think it is the same with “emotional strength”—

In a way though, it is helping me to be willing to set boundaries without guilt as I know that I MUST TAKE CARE OF ME, or no one will. I got so “low” on strength I almost lost my mind and I do NOT want to go back there again. It was worse than the worst pain of child birth, and I didn’t even get a baby out of it! LOL

If I have learned nothing else out of all this, I have learned that I MUST SET BOUNDARIES IN ORDER TO BE HEALTHY. NO MATTER WHO THE PERSON IS—did they give birth to me? Did I give birth to them? Are they my brother/sister/uncle/aunt, husband/wife, best friend? Doesn’t matter that does NOT give them a right to abuse me, use me or disrespect me. I want to be nice to the people I love, and I expect them to “play nice” as well. Doesn’t mean we will never have disagreements, but we can BE NICE ABOUT IT. I don’t think that is too much to ask of anyone who says they love me.

Ox Drover

Free, that is very profound, and deeply touching.

Yesterday and today has been sort of hard for me, reading about Amy’s children being murdered because no one would listen to her. I guess maybe it triggered in me the feelings I felt when Iwas trying to “save” my mother from the Ps ripping her off financially and/or killing her and no one would listen, the judge only partly listened, but in the end allowed the P to move back into mom’s house. I was so frantic, and ended up having to run myself in order to keep from being killed myself.

I could not even imagine how it would be to try to defend your KIDS–at least with my mother I could say, she is an adult, even if she isn’t totally functional, I could “let go” and take care of myself, but with KIDS it is a whole “nuther ball game”—I have always had a great deal of empathy for parents who are trying to raise kids with even limited contact with a P, a not “lethal” P even, but to be terrified for your kids’ lives, and have no one listen, to be compelled by LAW to allow them into the maw of the lion…I can’t even imagine the pain, the fear, the terror, and then the reality of it all. It really struck a cord in my heart and I was angry and tearful all day yesterday. Still tearful and sad today.

I am doing my best to “bleach the bitterness” out of my soul, to reflect, recognize the lessons that are to be learned and to internalize them into myself, but when something so horrible rings my chimes I do know that I react more to it than I would have before all this chaos in my life, I think, than I would have prior to my own horrible experience last year.

My Trojan Horse P will be getting out on parole May 21st, and I have done all I can to prevent it, and the SYSTEM has apparently ignored it. I plan to go to the governor’s office personally this next week, and may still, but we had a tornado hit down along a rural road about a mile north of us and wipe out the farms, barns, fences and homes of many people, so I am helping with the relief efforts and that is taking a great deal of TIME which I would normally have used fighting the system, but I feel like these people who have livestock and no place to put them, injured animals and no barns to house them in, etc. need my help and time more than me pounding on the governor’s door for what will most likely be a FUTILE effort, and these people can use my help NOW.

God spared me and my farm, so I feel like it is my duty to put forth effort to assiist my neighbors in their hour of need. We lost 2 people to death, 4 to serious injury, but many people lost their livelyhoods as well as their homes so a minor amount of inconvenience on my part will be a godsend to them. I’ve got truck loads of horses coming today and tomorrow, and some that will get back from the vet’s next week that will need shelter in barns until their wounds heal.

My visitors from Texas and my son and I drove by the devestation yesterday and it is heart breaking as well. The storm went right down the country road for over a mile wiping out everything on either side, then across a forest, twisting every tree either out of the ground or in two, jumped the highway and continued on down the road, so0me places you can only see foundations where the houses or trailers or bars were, and the few pieces bigger than a dining room table are all up against a treeline a half mile away, the rest is in tiny pieces over the pastures like pieces of confetti.

But like most rural areas, armies of men with chain saws turned out, tractors and bull dozers, so there is an outpouring of help for these devestated people. I can’t use a chain saw but I can shelter the animals on my farm to take that much stress off people whose pastures no longer have fences, their homes no roofs and their barns gone.

Maybe that will help me in my anger and sadness about Amy’s children, but I know it touched me more deeply than any other “news” story I have heard since 9/11.

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