Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel is just one person who has said the following: “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference”. In other words, the opposite of love is not hate, as might have been expected. We’ve all heard this contention and been struck by it. Yes, we’ve thought, it is terrible to be ignored. (Pretty awful being hated too, of course.)
But I’m grateful to Dawn Eden for mentioning another powerful proposition.
Eden, promoting her book ‘The Thrill of the Chaste’, is currently visiting Canadian high schools.
The students seemed interested when I told them what Pope John Paul II called “the opposite of love.” It’s not hate, as some of them guessed when I asked them what they thought it would be, nor is it indifference. It’s use.
“People sometimes use people because they hate them,” I said. “But you don’t have to hate someone to use them. That’s why use is more dangerous than hate. You can use someone while fooling yourself into thinking you love them.”
On reading this I immediately thought of the life stories told at Lovefraud. This concept of love vs use seems to have much promise when it comes to making sense of life with a psychopath. For instance a minor change of the last sentence by Eden goes as follows: “You can use someone while fooling them into thinking you love them”.
Yes, we do bleed. I find myself feeling terrible for even talking about him on here, even though it’s anonymous and nobody knows me or who I’m talking about!
And yet what we share here happened TO us. We didn’t ask for it. We entered into these relationships with the best of hope and only the knowledge they would actually give us – some of it turning out to be lies – and lots and lots of pain along the way.
It is the story of us as much as it is the story of the other person, and we own our experiences, not only what was done to us but how we responded.
If they had told us the truth (assuming they could) how differently we would have reacted. Had I known going in that he had issues or problems, that he would be saying things and doing things that hurt me but maybe were not intentional or meant to harm, I know I would have wanted to help him. But the reality is, I couldn’t have helped him. I would have been able to understand all of this better, though.
But are they even capable of not devaluing you, discarding you eventually? That’s how they do things, right? Mine left FOUR times…and each time was an example from the Commitmentphobia book. Literally. The book gave only three ways they leave — stage a fight, pull a Houdini or slowly remove themselves from every part of the relationship, piece by piece.
The very first time we stopped seeing each other, he staged a fight. A few years later, a Houdini. A few years after that, another Houdini. This last time, he slowly pulled out emotionally, then withdrawal of intimacy, then the snide comments, distance and devaluation started.
When I read that in the book in the spring of 2007, it was like someone dumped a glass of water on me.
I knew then it would only be a matter of time, again.
There were so many times he acted as though he hated me, he did things that seemed like he wanted to hurt me. It was unfathomable to me, wanting to hurt the person you claimed to love.
I tried to break NC last night, for a long story I won’t go into. He hasn’t responded. I truly don’t think he will. Please don’t tell me it was stupid because I already know…but I really have been bleeding lately.
LilOrphan,
You are “bleeding” alot lately. I wouldn’t want to see you hemmorage. Keep trudgeing forward with NC. It is the only way. I never had even one satisfying communication with BM no matter how much I was hurting or how much I needed him. I bet this is true for you. If he has moved on, be HAPPY! That is something to celebrate. When they move on, it’s not because there is somethign wrong with us… it is because there is something right with us.
Aloha!
Regarding this post topic:
I am going to keep my focus on the first statement.
“You can use someone while fooling YOURSELF into thinking YOU love THEM.”
The healing lies within me… not him and what he was doing. I know all about him inside and out.
Since many of us seem to share the same nature, I am willing to bet we ALL have heard this one spoken to us: You can’t love someone else until you love yourself.
But what about me? I fooled MYSELF into thinking I loved a man that was abusing me and if I am honest, it didn’t take that long to realize that… but I was using him to fill a void, to feel validated as a woman, to have attention even if it was negative attention because it had been a long time since that much attention was on me.
I don’t care why Bad Man did what he did anymore. I only care about me.
Anyone want to join me?
aloha –
Pretty good line about the bleeding. I won’t be trying to contact him again. The attempt wasn’t about getting anything back from him – you are right about the times I’ve tried to talk to him or get him to see how what he did hurt me were rather pointless and only hurt more. He already knew what he was doing was hurting me. Sometimes it felt like the entire point of whatever particular exercise it was!
It wasn’t about me wanting or needing anything, although I do freely admit to missing the good things between us. Instead, it was precipitated by something specific that made me think he was in danger or serious mental trouble.
I have no earthly clue exactly what his demons are. Some of his actions fit perfectly with the P and N traits. Others did not, and there always seemed to be something more going on there. Some inner torture that he knew about but couldn’t fight.
I also wanted to lay claim to my piece of the story – my own faults and failings that need work on in order to be with someone healthy who wants a real relationship and is capable of one.
When we parted, I saw the fault as pretty much being all him. And, honestly, 90 percent of it was. But at least ten percent if not more was my own way of handling or not handling my own fears and feelings.
It felt right to admit that to the universe and to him, as a start on the work I need to do within. It was my gesture of love to myself and to care for the person I originally thought he was.
Just something specific that happened that evening which made me feel he was in some sort of real trouble. Not that he had moved on.
The”bleeding” part, and it being “internal” bleeding, is I think part of what others also don’t get—because our bleeding, our hemmoraging, is NOT “Visible” to others, it makes it difficult for ANYone to see just how much pain we are in, or how in danger our SELVES are from the P experience.
Yes, Orphan, I can relate to your wanting to admit the part that YOU played in it (the whole thing) I used to DREAM long conversations with my mother, with my son, with my X-BF where I was always trying to “explain” myself in these dreams. I wouldn’t let myself do it in the daylight for real, but my mind NEEDED, WANTED to do so, so that came out in my dreams. They were sooooo REAL it was almost like I had been with them during the night.
I think sometimes I did a great deal of my healing at night in my dreams—-some of them actually I cherish and still vividly remember. ONe night my beloved deceased step father came to me in the dream and told me that HE understood where I was coiming from, and you know, I know if I had had the chance to TELL HIM, he WOULD have understood and stood beside me through all this craziness.
Don’t beat yourself up Orphan, I definitely think I know where you are coming from. ((((hugs)))))
It’s strange – I do l explain myself to others. Just couldn’t do it with him, because he would often walk away as another typical abusive means of avoiding intimacy.
He really wasn’t open to any kind of meaningful discussion after the honeymoon period. Ever. Even basic conversation two involved people would share: things from the past that have informed your current experiences, happy memories, etc. He even refused to comment further after making a negative comment about a job offer I had! Who does that? Someone messed-up.
That’s when it was clear he did not want to grow the relationship into anything meaningful and real. That he only was acting that way until he had me “hooked” and then the reality came out.
I explain myself all the time -often whether my loved ones want to know or not. Remember the comment from my oldest how I used to drive her nuts with MY forgiveness?
She was a handful and could argue like a lawyer. She’d do something wrong – you’d call her on it with clear-cut evidence and before you knew it, suddenly you were arguing over YOUR own failings! Or something that happened five years ago!
Anyway, we had our share of fights. Thing is, within minutes, I am always instantly sorry about fighting with someone! I can’t stand to have negative emotions between us and things unspoken….
Experiencing the kind of childhood I had, you grow up realizing that only evil can grow in darkness. That sunlight is the best disinfectant for any situation, and truth, even painful truth, is preferable to lies.
If people want to grow in a relationship and for the relationship to actually be an intimate one, they do not hide from one another or lie about how they’re feeling. That’s how I operate, anyway, with my kids, close friends and birth-parents. We tell the truth to each other, with love.
It’s the exact opposite of how my FOO operated, and the relationships between my girls and all three of us are much stronger, much closer because of that.
I’d rather just get everything out into the open, wrestle with it and move on, instead of letting it simmer in darkness and perhaps turn out worse in the long run.
And OxD, I have conversations with my deceased family members — not always while sleeping. I go commune with them at the cemetery where they’re all together. I often look to memories of them for guidance and for sustenance when in pain. My uncle, in particular, as we were very close and he was an amazingly giving human being to family and strangers.
All of these things, telling our truths with love, fostering relationships that allow for that kind of safety in communication, even dream communications, are healthy and healing.
Hi Ladies:
Sorry to sort of change the subject but I have to run to work and have only a minute. This morning I have been looking at u-tube videos by Gavin de Becker who wrote the book, “The Gift of Fear”. I believe his advice is immensely powerful, and potentially life-saving. These links are from Prime Time and Oprah. Gavin says, “listen to your intuition”. Below are the links. Happy day! Peggy Pseu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1U8G1dOCLs
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cA3vaRNH8A
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38hFr96pTO4
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 3
EVIDENTLY THERE IS NO PART 4…at least I couldn’t find it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ZYc_6nL9Q
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYnFbHNvhkM
Gavin de Becker – Gift of Fear – Oprah – Part 6
“True fear is always in something that you sense…worry is always something in your imagination or your memory”. — Gavin de Becker
Do NOT question your own sanity. LISTEN to your own intuition.
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGS7Jmd00c
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NAIWIe9Y7k&feature=related
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocLGSJZtxT0&feature=related
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PEW8R3Tzhk&feature=related
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_s8U7Z0zQE&feature=related
Prime Time Live on Gift of Fear Gavin de Becker Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydj4my0kiwg&feature=related
LilOrphan,
We all have things to work through. No one is perfect. I made a few immature moves with Bad Man but.. he IS NOT the person to admitt these things to.. he IS NOT the person to work these things out with.
I do not see any value in admitting your faults or wrong doings to someone that has disordered behavior. This is what you need to learn… who is someone to trust with your inner being. You are saran wrap.. I am transparent. I am learning that I do not need to share my inner workings with the whole world. This is a boundary issue. And there are many many people who are unsafe to do this with. And it is immature and unfair of me to expect people to do right with my sharing of inner me… or to even burden people with knowing all about me… They don’t need to know.
This was a pattern I had with BM. I told him ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ABOUT ME. He required “total tranparency” in the relationship.. which was no problem at all for me! I gave each and every thing he used to attack about my character.
I used to be the person that would share with my co-workers the mistakes I made thinking that they would see how smart I was because in the end, I worked it all out. Instead, they thought I was incompetent. I just went through something like this at work… a small thing could have easliy been a BIG thing but I had to bite my tongue off so that I would SHUT UP. I thought I was showing people that I was human or something.. I don’t know where I got these ideas.
I also am guilty of thinking that there is some big thing in the Bad Man that even he knows is there and he just can’t quite get a handle on it… but maybe if I help him… subtext… then he will be the good guy that I wanted to be with and he will be thankful to me because I am the one who helped through the terrible fog he’s in… the poor dear.. and he will see how devoted and dedicated I am… STOP IT LILORPHAN!
Boy are you stubborn!
He is not your problem. If he get’s cancer, don’t you go looking for a cure. Leave him be. The universe will take care of him… you need to take care of you only. That is your job right now… to JUST TAKE CARE OF YOU. He is none of your business.. and BE GLAD!!!
I am telling you this because I you are one of my LOVE FRAUD LADIES and I care about you.
It sounds like you are still spending a lot of time thinking about his innner-workings. He is a disordered Bad Man. Maybe you aren’t sure which kind but let that go. HE IS A BAD MAN. PERIOD.
I mean you are having a steady stream of dates with good men… HELLO?! Does anyone want to whack LilOrphan over the head right now?! I just had a dream last night that I was falling in love with a man… it was awesome… we were talking and laughing and smooching.. it was great! That is the most action I have had in 2 years!
Get out there and ENJOY your dates. BAD MAN IS NOT THE ONE FOR YOU… if he was.. you wouldn’t hanging out here at LF!
LilOrphan,
I skipped over your second post… but I just read it. I do think that open communication is good, of course!
But there is a clue there in what you said… that your daughter said you are driving her insane with your explantions and forgiveness or something like that. Why do you have to explain yourself? Are you justifying your feelings? I don’t think you have to do that.
I used to explain my entire life history to a guy when I was dating him. I no longer will do that. They don’t need to be in love with me and my mistakes of 20 years ago. I want to be loved for who I am now… how I got here is my business.
That’s just my take. Of course, I do share about my life but I just don’t dump my bucket as a friend used to say. And I don’t, in theory, share prematurely… I say in theory because it is always a work in progress.
This is one of my takes on growing and becoming the woman I am today… a friend was telling me “that’s just who I am” about something that wasn’t working for him. I think as we mature, one thing we have to do is look at who we are and if we see something that is not working in our lives related to “who we are” we need to work on that. My friend didn’t get this for awhile and so he continued to be “who I am” and he continued to have the same problems.
It wasn’t working for me to be the open book that I was.. it’s against my nature to be different but I work hard at it. It certainly didn’t work to give BM ammunition over and over and over to attack me with. HE PROVED himself unworthy of that information and even as I becamse FULLY aware of that and even verbalized it to someone… so I had FULL awareness and admission… I continued to share in the minutest detail… everything about me and he continued to attack me with my vulnerabilities which I handed to him, gift wrapped and on a platter with much fan fare… WTF?
I can’t believe I did this. But I am learning!
Aloha,
WOW! Lady, you cut right to the chase! I totally AGREE WITH YOU, and I think you said it consisely and precisely…Orphan, I think you should listen to Aloha on this one. Yea, it’s blunt, but if WE can’t be blunt with each other as we get mostly out of the FOG who can be blunt with us! I think sometimes we really NEED THAT ‘WHACK up side the head” (lovingly given as it was) WAKE UP SWEETIE!
If my son was about to step off a cliff and I knew it I WOULD NOT WARN HIM, I am NOT responsible for what happens to him, HE IS. It is NOT my job to watch over him and keep bad things from happening to him, if he is depressed and suicidal, that is his problem not mine. I can’t fix him, I can’t protect him, and God alone knows what a violent and unsafe environment he is in in prison–he’s a small white guy in a populati n of latino and black guys the size of mountains who are NOT in there for singing too loudly in the church choir, so if he gets hurt, (and he has been seriously injured in the past) what’s that to ME? HE put himself in this kind of environment for violence of his own, so now he doesn’t have a gun to protect himself from the people just like him who are BIGGER and BADDER and don’t like uppity little white guys with big mouths who are half their size. Oh, well….that’s NOT my problem, now is it?
If your BM has problems, even horrible problems, WHOSE PROBLEMS ARE THEY? Who put him in the position to have those probems? Whose responsibility is it to fix his problems?
Yes, you are a nice woman, a caring woman, but WHY are you caring about someone who wouldn’t pi$$ on you if you were on FIRE! Even if HE set the fire! LOL
Hang in there, Orphan, you are making progress! I think most of us are in my opinion doing GREAT and each day a little more insight into another aspect comes along. ((((hugs)))))) from nurse Rachett!