By John Hunt, MD
All who read Lovefraud.com know that sociopaths lie, cheat and steal, manipulate, control, defraud. Sociopaths seek out positions of power over others. The low functioning sociopath does this on a small scale—just ruining the life of an unsuspecting spouse, perhaps. The high functioning sociopath does this on a much grander scale, perhaps through the political system—ruining a country.
Sociopaths seek power. What better way to accomplish this than through politics? Think how much politicians have to lie to get elected. It is hard for a good person to get elected, in part because they don’t lie well. Sociopaths lie with practiced ease and no guilt. They concentrate themselves in government, quite naturally.
Ever wonder why government messes up so much? Why Congress is despised? Why presidents so often lie and mislead, strive for control over others, and somehow get away with it? Ever wonder why the government is so internally contradictory, so confusing, so incomprehensible, and yet somehow retains its total power over the people? Ever wonder why the largest debtor in the history of the world—the US government—which is an utterly bankrupt entity, somehow convinces people to loan it large sums of money, and the people accept loan repayment in the form of counterfeit currency printed out of thin air by the Federal Reserve? Do you see how sociopathic the government has become? A walking lie, a talking contradiction?
It is because the government is filled to the brims with sociopaths.
Force against fellow man
Politicians and bureaucrats have reserved for themselves the legal right to initiate force against their fellow man. Think about that for a moment. Anyone else who initiates force commits a crime, but not government! They are special! Moral law doesn’t apply to them! Sound familiar?
It doesn’t matter which party is in charge. Most recently they have compelled us to purchase really crappy and expensive financial products from their large corporate buddies (e.g., health insurance). But consider also the bipartisan support for forcible military conscription in the past, unconstitutional/illegal taxation and fees, the protection racket of the IRS, the spying and monitoring by the NSA, mandates for prescriptions for medications sold over-the-counter everywhere else in the world (the effect of which is to keep prices high for the profit of big pharma).
And fraud too. Consider the largest fraud in human history—the Federal Reserve—which creates money without work and doles it out to its morally bankrupt friends. Consider the ponzi schemes of Social Security and Medicare; and the totally illegal accounting methods of the federal government which artificially lower the government’s debt from $90 trillion to “only” $18 trillion, the justifications for which are so willingly accepted by a population in denial of obvious truths. The government is a giant con artist. A giant sociopathic monster. It’s all about control and manipulation. And they systematically gaslight us like crazy starting from kindergarten, to try to make us accept all this blatant criminality as appropriate!
No one knows what percentage of politicians and bureaucrats are sociopaths, but there is assuredly a high concentration of them in that realm. There are two reasons for this: 1) the sociopath’s skill set is perfect for politics and bureaucracy; 2) a position of legal unrestrained power over other humans is simply too intriguing for a high-functioning sociopath to let pass by.
The opposite: Libertarian
The political opposite, and social opposite, of the sociopath is the libertarian. A libertarian ascribes avidly, completely and thoroughly to the Nonaggression Principle. The Nonaggression Principle states that never, NEVER is it acceptable to initiate force or fraud against another human being. Wow. To a libertarian, no end ever justifies the use of an immoral means.
Now, this doesn’t make a libertarian a wimp. If someone attacks a libertarian without provocation, the libertarian wouldn’t hesitate to pop the dude in the face. But the libertarian wouldn’t attack, unless attacked first. The libertarian won’t lie, cheat, steal or defraud, excepting to take back something stolen. The libertarian will not initiate. But the libertarian will defend.
In a world in which cronyism is so dominant, it is easier to be successful by lying, cheating and stealing, or by rent seeking (convincing a politician to give you someone else’s money or property). Libertarians cannot do these things. They are incapable of doing them. How refreshing is that? Libertarians strive for a political system which allows their honesty to be rewarded instead of punished. We are a long way from that society.
Each of us has suffered from the actions of the sociopaths in our lives. Yet we are also the confused and willing victims of the sociopaths in government. We remain in denial about these controllers, manipulators, liars and cheaters. We give them unearned authority and unearned credibility because we are taught to believe that they have the right to tell us what to do. We stick their names on our bumper stickers. We send them money. We vote for them. What are we thinking?
My recommendation? If you want the opposite of the sociopath to be your partner, seek out a libertarian. If you want the opposite of a sociopath to be your representative in congress, to be your senator, or to be your president, seek out a libertarian.
Libertarians and sociopaths
Libertarians are likely to trust any individual who claims to be a libertarian or is a Ron Paul supporter. This is because libertarians abide by a personal code that makes them, by definition, principled and honorable people. However, libertarians are human. They have no greater education about sociopaths than anyone else. They can be faked out by sociopaths too, although usually not for long. Because sociopaths are such effective liars, you of course need to beware that they can put on the act of being a libertarian, the same way that sociopaths often pretend to be Christian—to take advantage of people’s desires to trust others. Indeed, sociopaths can infiltrate any philosophy. But the libertarian doctrine stands so adamantly in contrast to the sociopath’s hardwired and distorted brain, that the sociopath cannot hold to a fake libertarian act for long. Sociopathy used to be called “moral insanity”, and maybe it should be called that again. True libertarians are the opposite: they are morally rational.
To a libertarian, there is nothing more dangerous than lying to oneself. Sociopaths absolutely rely on the ability of their victims to lie to themselves. Libertarianism therefore is a vaccination against the infection and the cancer of the sociopath.
Just in case you have some false impression of libertarians, they are not on the fringe of society, although they are on the fringe of politics! They can be found in the Democratic or the Republican party (always as reformers), or as members of other political parties, or most commonly not as part of any political party. Libertarians are most aptly described as Americans of the style we usually consider the country’s founding fathers to be, except that they are also exceedingly tolerant.
Characteristics of a Libertarian
As a quick introduction to your study of what a libertarian is, here is my list of characteristics. Libertarians are above all individuals, but most all ascribe to these concepts.
- They don’t initiate force or fraud against their fellow man. They are principled.
- They are tolerant people. Tolerant of anything other than force or fraud.
- They don’t use government power to commit force or fraud to benefit themselves or others.
- They don’t use propaganda or gaslighting to manipulate the people.
- They don’t vote for politicians who want to use government power to commit force or fraud, or to compel people to behave a certain way, or to compel people to buy certain products. They only support politicians who recognize the only job of government is to protect people from the force and fraud of others. To a libertarian, neither democracy nor the voting booth should be considered or used as means of compulsion.
- Libertarians favor a strong defense, but don’t attack unless threatened.
- Libertarians are commonly described as “fiscally conservative and socially liberal”. Libertarians do not oppose gay marriage. The don’t believe that victimless crimes are crimes. They think marijuana should be legal. They do not think that anyone’s money should be stolen from them and given to another through the tax code. They don’t believe that forced giving is either charitable or moral, but rather “forced giving” is just a form of theft. They never support bailing out Wall Street, nor giving power to one group over another. They don’t ever lend government power to special interests (Special interests are the opposite of the “general welfare” of the Constitution). Libertarians think that government is supposed to work for the people, not people work for government. They are opposed to the NSA spying on American citizens. Libertarians like immigrants. They think that America is not a geographically imprisoned nation-state, but rather a philosophy that can be found all over the world. Libertarians want to put a wall around the welfare state, not a wall around the country. Many libertarians are highly charitable. Many libertarians righteously fight against anyone who uses force against them or defrauds them.
- Libertarians are thoughtful people who above all respect the dignity and freedom of the individual to live as each individual chooses.
- Because of the moral principles to which libertarians ascribe—which are consistent and predictable based on the Nonaggression Principle—they can, better than most, recognize the fraud that permeates society.
If you want a world in which the sociopaths are not messing with your life and wreaking their havoc on society right and left, learn about libertarianism. If you want a partner that is the entire opposite of a manipulative sociopath, find yourself a libertarian.
The trend in society toward libertarianism is a wonderful thing for those who recognize that sociopaths are the embodiment of evil in the world. The central defining characteristic of a libertarians is moral sanity. Sociopaths, in absolute contrast, are morally insane.
John Hunt, MD is a pediatric lung physician and author of the novel Assume the Physician, which teaches about the medical system through constant humor, as well as Higher Cause, and a soon to be released guide for childhood asthma management.
Hear Hear Stargazer, well said! What is that old saying ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely’? I don’t see anyone in our government actually having ‘absolute’ power. Some appear to have too much, by the way we see them abuse it. But some people will abuse even the smallest amount of power (our experiences are evidence of that!)
Therefore some levels power may not corrupt a basically intact individual at all, and may be used for good. It seems to me it would be highly variant, depending on the individual’s basic psychological soundness. Some will handle power much better than others. And psychopaths abuse power at any level.
Assuring our leaders do not have the absolute power of a dictator is still, likely, a very good idea. Believing that there are some who do good works within an imperfect system is needed, if that system is to continue to evolve.
Having a process in place to vet our leaders for disordered traits, to cut up the power into smaller pieces (so the activities of those involved can be monitored for bad choices and behaviors), and to (in my opinion) financially de-insentivize the senate and the white house by stopping life time paychecks after those people are retired from office. All these things would be good.
Just my 2 cents.
Slim
Slimone, I agree with you.
It is naive to believe that government is unnecessary.. Take any group of people, isolate them together, and the need for rules (and a means to enforce those rules) becomes self-evident. It is precisely because we CANNOT count on every individual to be stable and non-disruptive that this is true.
That said, our system of government is not perfect, but I do believe we would be hard-pressed to find any better system anywhere; however, it’s clear that changes need to be made.
mustard55 (love that!),
Thanks for responding. I don’t know if there are better governments. I don’t know much about world systems. I am intrigued by the nordic countries and their standard of living for the average citizen. I am guessing as we have become a world economy that the problems of capitalism are affecting what would have been more functional systems than our own.
We do need rules and enforcement. Your first paragraph reminded me of Lord of the Flies, talk about isolating them together and then watching the carnage begin!
Sim
Norway is the wealthiest country per capita because it is tapping into its large oil reserves.
To blame capitalism for the world’s problems ignores the fact that since we have become more free and capitalistic we have seen the greatest improvements in quality of life for more people than ever before in history.
The US has even more oil than Norway but government prevents people from accessing most of it.
Some environmental regulations are from good intended people who want to protect our environment. The Clean Air Act is an example of regulations that improved air quality and so was generally a good thing for government to do.
But other laws are from corporate cronies who want to drive out competition or profit from “green alternatives”. Many of those alternatives are not better for the environment or even sustainable.
What is going on in the USA is not capitalism. It is called corporatism and it is where special interests basically control the government and regulate capitalists (you and me) out of business so that the Too-Big-To-Fails can monopolize the market.
Corporatism and Central Banks empowered by regulations are behind the wealth disparity.
Capitalism historically has been a great equalizer of classes because freedom provides for the easiest upward mobility for the most people.
Libertarians believe in Rule of Law and a limited government that supports national defense, a sound currency, free trade and inalienable rights of its citizens.
A government that protects citizens’ rights from violation is not the same as a government that forces people to be virtuous or tries to force other countries to be democratic.
I think the founders of the constitution hit a good balance of respect for the secular and the sacred.
You are free to believe and live as you wish as long as you don’t impose your will on me.
AnonymosaFurtivo aka Dr Hunt??
Thats all fine and dandy what the “Libertarians believe in” but the reality is sociopaths/narcissist are amount the Libertarian political party. It’s a statistical fact!
1 in 25 people mainly men are sociopaths. And experts believe that we have one in our circle of friends/family AND that we meet one in passing everyday. So this Libertarian party has sociopaths among them!! What do sociopaths love to do? have power & control over citizens!
NOT sure WHY you are pushing you libertarian party views on a sociopath victims website…seems very strange to me & it seems very narcissist also. I think it is also very strange that someone post using “Dr” in their post name seems narcissist to me. But that is just my opinion since you state I am “free to believe and live as (I) wish”.
I am an anonymous female and I had never heard of Dr Hunt before reading this article on love fraud. He uses the title “Dr” because he is a pediatrician…
I came to lovefraud to try and figure out if my husband is a sociopath, and came across this article which tapped into a feeling I have had about American society and the current monetary/economic crisis.
I have come to the conclusion that sociopathy is a spectrum more than black and white.
I also believe there is an overlap with other neurological problems, such as ADD/ADHD, Aspergers and traumatic brain injuries.
I also think nutrition might be a lot more important than we know in treating mental illness. It has been helpful for me in dealing with my systemic lupus.
Yes, you are free to disagree and I would not vote for any law that would force you to agree with me or support me financially even though I am far from privileged.
In libertarian society you would be free to live in a Communist Society of Gay Porn Stars as long as you are consenting adults, not hurting people, or stealing their stuff.
Socialism can exist under libertarian government, but liberty can not flourish under other systems.
I am more troubled by the unwillingness of Americans to engage in rational debate than I am by the numbers of sociopaths.
1 in 25 is still a small minority and they only have power that we give to them.
jan7.
No. I post only as myself, using my real name, taking full and sole responsibility for what I post. I think hiding under anonymity is totally fine, however I choose to not do so.
I know nobody else on this site, and I have informed nobody of my writing of this article, nor spread it around. As far as I know, with nobody commenting on this post do I have any professional, social, political or other connection, or any form of knowledge. I am impressed that there are so many knowledgeable in the field. That’s great!
You do have an incorrect view of libertarians. They do NOT want control over citizens. That notion is simply false. They just don’t want ‘citizens’ to control them!
As for using my title being narcissistic in your mind, well, it’s not my post name, it is my real name, and it is the name I use as an author. Incorporating MD into my name allows other people named John Hunt to not be accosted for for whatever I may write. It is open, and honest to include it. I don’t want the poor guy who first climbed Mt. Everest to be blamed for what I write, just because we share a name.
This posting may not be for you at this time of your life.
dr hunt, it’s very complexing that you are pushing your Libertarian agenda on here. very complexing.
AnonymosaFurtivo, I would highly recommend that you watch the videos at the top of this site & read everything at the top to figure out if your husband meets the traits. But honestly it does not matter if he fits the traits you know in your gut something is not right with him because you found this site to figure things out about your relationship with him. He is abusing you. I would also recommend that you contact your National domestic violence hotline to talk with a free counselors and also go to your local abuse center for free counseling and women group meetings. It would also be wise to find an outside counselor who is extremely knowledgeable with narcissist abuse to help you sort out what you have been enduring in your relationship.
Follow your gut!!
Search on love fraud at the top and on the net also:
gas lighting abuse
no contact rule
Read Donna Andersons’s book (Lovefraud creator) and her book recommendation located at the top under Book Store also Women who love psychopath by Sandra Brown is one my counselor gave me to read well worth the money.
Once you are educated on sociopathic abuse you will see that 1 sociopath out of 25 people is high and very scary. They are pure evil and will do anything and everything to destroy their victims. Think about this every class you sat in during school had at least 1 sociopath/psychopath in the classroom. Every time you walk in a building and there are 25 people standing in the building you are standing with a sociopath/psychopath. This is a site to discuss abuse at the hands of a sociopath the dialogue is very rational. Once you lived the hell of a sociopath you do not want others pushing their agenda on you, you want to think freely for yourself..so you can see why several of us are questioning the writers motives of placing his post on a site for victims of sociopaths.
If you need help deciding if your spouse is a sociopath you can post your story to Donna and she can posted on the main board for others to share their thoughts…this type of posting is very supportive an none judging. It helps many victims to see the truth about their relationship and to hear story similar to yours.
Wishing you all the best.
You make good points, Slim.
Now, I hesitate to mention this because some will believe it and others will refuse to believe it, but some of our seemingly corrupt leaders are actually “controlled” by others behind the scenes (for example, blackmail). Not saying there aren’t corrupt politicians, but saying that there are sociopaths behind the curtain, scapegoating many of our politicians. Many of whom make seemingly bizarre decisions that only make sense if you realize they are operating under duress and some type of threat. (please ponder this within the context of your own spath relationships and you will better understand what I mean…. “how come she stays with him?” etc. Well, it sometimes is not “all that simple.” Sometimes it is complicated, why she doesn’t “just leave.”)
This can happen to many good and well intentioned people who choose public office for the “right reasons” but without fully grasping the beast. Some of these good people are forced from office after serving only one, short term or leave early “for personal reasons.” I believe that the magnitude of corruption is not fully apprehended by many, and that is part of the (deliberate) deception. So this is intended as food for thought, as we think about why our leaders do not seem to serve the people. Or, they say one thing to get elected, then do the opposite once in office. The deck is stacked heavily against principled leaders.
Having said that, those ideas of yours are good ones. It is just that there are parallels to our own interpersonal relationships with spaths, whereby we may be “good” and have “good intentions” but the evil depravity of our spath partner is so extreme and treacherous, that our good nature alone cannot possibly turn a “force and fraud” situation into one that is mutual, respectful, and for the benefit of good people. And we may make ourselves ill, trying.
It is a parasitic situation. The parasites must be recognized for what they are and removed. Or the host will get sicker and sicker and maybe even die. It will not work to keep trying harder and harder but without recognition of the true root of the problem.
20years, absolutely most politicians are being “controlled” including Presidents & Prime Ministers by a behind the curtain puppet master(s).
Who is controlling them in the USA??
All the “Secret societies” such as the Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones (dates back to the Nazi’s), Bilderburg Society and billionaire such as the Koch Brothers control these front men & women politicians. Do reach on these secret societies you will see the curtain fall just like a mast of a sociopath falls.
For years the Bohemian Grove (Ronald Reagan for example) really selected the “next” president then the power switched to Skull & Bones secret society (Bush family for example) & Rhodes Scholar (Clinton for example). These secret societies are comprised of the top 1% of the world’s wealthiest. They want to keep the world’s citizens brain washed & mind controlled so they don’t see what is really going on….this is what sociopaths do to their spouses too!!!
People forget that all of these politicians need money to get elected and most of the money comes from big business & very wealthy citizens (billionaires) that have a financial plan themselves but need politicians to pass laws & give govt funding to their agenda.
What better way to get your agenda completed then to buy a few politicians elections. Not saying it’s a payoff but they are given money with a promise they will look after the benefactor once they are in office.
An example is Bush paid back the oil industry for getting him into office by increasing the gas prices & now Obama is paying back his backers the Insurance industry with Obama Care being passed into law. Look at Hilary Clinton and all the future election money she/bill have channeled through their foundation from govt’s around the world…she has a lot of paybacks to give back should she be elected and not to the US citizens but to foreign govt’s scary to think about this and her/her financial backers agenda…this is not in the favor of USA citizens but is for all of the wealthy money they were given to get elected.
If people think in America that your vote matters you are mistaken…just look at the Al Gore/Bush election year (hanging Chad)….Al Gore had the popular vote meaning most American’s voted for him but Bush won electoral votes (which is our system) giving Bush the Presidency. When you do a search on who is in the “electoral college” you can find a list of a few states but there are other states that by law they do not have to disclose who in on their electoral college committee (sneaky!!). Are these electoral college members being bought too just like a politician?
If you look at China a communist country…they have no voting system meaning their citizens do not go to the polls to vote….their board of officers for the country pick the next ruling person. If you step back & truly look at the USA system it’s much like China’s system on a limited view…meaning our electoral college selects the President not the citizens we just think we are making a difference with our vote…another behind the curtain moment being exposed.
This is why now that I am educated that I can see the parallel of what my ex h sociopath did to me and what these politicians are doing to the world citizens to control them and keep them in the dark. But for me the mask has slipped not only on my ex but also the world sociopaths thanks to sites like Lovefraud & books. A bit of the “Matrix movie” has opened my mind.
Jan 7,
Wow! So true. My therapist, many years ago, brought this to my attention. At the time I was too overwhelmed with my personal spathy problems, and filed it away. But she was talking about the same things, that our political system is, by definition, narcissistic. It pretends to be one thing, but is actually completely another. Hiding behind a mask of inclusiveness, but generally exclusive (for the monied, by the monied).
The electoral college process is a sham. Campaign financing is corrupt. And most people drawn to the ‘bigger’ offices cannot help but fully participate in the corruption.
When we take our personal experiences and fan them out beyond our own reality we can see so many parallels, so many examples. Most people think I am being conspiratorial or paranoid when I try to talk about this stuff”..nice to be talking about it here on LF, whatever our ‘political’ beliefs/party affiliations are, there are parallels that cannot and should not be ignored.
Slim
Slimone, once you have been in the sociopaths hell…crawl out…find Lovefraud…you end up with one of the keys to understanding how this planet really operates.
Funny thing my ex was obsessed with the movie The Matrix…he would watch the video every night…at the time I was so broken down by him that I did not fully understand the movie….LOL…it’s exactly what I was living…oppression by him to control my mind so that he could prevent me from leaving but more importantly having a good life.
there are times that I wish that I was still in the dark about how this planet works… I knew back before my ex that their was bad (evil) but now I know how pure evil sociopaths/psychopath really are in this world and sadly how much damage they do to destroy their victims entire life and sadly no one really gets it unless you have been a victim of one. There is no education in school…WHY!?! there should be….I would have understood my gut instinct when meeting my ex & would have avoid him had I been educated in school.
Makes you wonder what really happened in Bill Clinton’s Presidency (he’s definitely fits the bill of a sociopath maybe psychopath) and all the other narcissist/sociopathic presidents & prime ministers. I try to explain this to my family/friends but like you have experienced they don’t want to open their minds to the reality of this world. It’s good to connect with others like you on LF to discuss these topics like you stated.
Jan7
Agree, esp with your last paragraph.
Additionally, all these people go along with the sociopathy in government. They just don’t see there’s a problem. It is hard to see when there is no conflict.
But like with my husband, as long as I was in agreement with his plans/manipulations, gee, life was pretty okay. But… when I had a different perspective, objected to his immorality, then life got very rough and his mask came off, and I saw how we were never partners afterall. I was merely the tool he used to take advantage of me and OTHERS for HIS benefit.
There are LOTs of people who think my husband was great… and only those who came into conflict/disagreement with him learned the truth… that they were being controlled and dominated by a monster.
Yep. Parallels of what I see is happening in this world, where politicians are keeping citizens in the dark to control them. Giving us the choice between two evils is still NOT A REAL CHOICE. I voted for a Pres who said he’d have a transparent government… and then came the bill(Law) that “had to be passed FIRST in order for us voters/citizens to know what was IN the bill (Law), which of course by then, was too late. Sociopathic logic, just like my ex husband and his smiling joke as he said, “Me Lie? With My Honest Face?!!”
Other countries governments are doing the same spin, not just happening here. I do feel as helpless in the world as I did when I was married. I left him. How do we get out of control of institutionalized sociopathy.
ps I guess it was you who wrote their observation of Ron Paul. Yes, he always brought up the creep factor for me, his arrogance and dismissiveness …. he was so patronizing and superior…only Parts of what he said was libertarian, the rest was ego centric. Yuck and awwwcckkkkk.
Notwhathesaidofme, YES Ron Paul is very very creepy!!! that is a BIG RED FLAG to me!! I say now always Follow your gut when it comes to people…first impressions lasting impressions like the old saying goes. Bill Clinton is creepy too and Hilary seems to be a step ford wife now like the original movie Stepford wife from the 70’s.
I was pondering the other day to the Monkey/Ape world have sociopaths? Scientist state that we are close to the DNA of them…makes you wonder.
My ex h too…he was the life of the party…unless he did not pay you your pay check (his employees) etc then they would get a glimpse into my world with him. People would often say to me who did business with him that I was a “Saint” not that I am but those are the people that knew exactly who he was…at the time I was so broken down that it was a blessing when someone made that statement because they knew what I was dealing with..they saw me and my hell that I was living.
Once your mind opens up from the brain washing like everyone is stating you see all of the parallels in all life.
I stopped voting the last election…I see reality with our govt after divorce court.
Such a crazy world…makes you wonder what it all means..is this it or is there something after this life…hopefully a better none sociopath/psychopath world for all of us good people 🙂
Jan7,
If only more people could see things this clearly. But five years ago, I could not. I was on my way to understanding, due to sorting through the spath experience. It is a gradual connecting of the dots. Then, one day, maybe things suddenly jump into focus. Gaining “spath awareness” helps greatly to break through the fog or the Matrix.
Thank goodness for the internet — it is now so much more possible for everyone to research these things for themselves. Mostly what I hear from people (and I say this myself to people) is, yes I know this sounds bizarre and unpleasant, offensive, scandalous, ridiculous, even unbelievable, so don’t take MY word for it — do your OWN research and see what you discover! Then get back to me. 🙂
It is not at all desired, to argue with uninformed people. That gets no one anywhere good. But hope instead to spark some interest, so maybe people will start to look into things for themselves and seek truth with an open mind and heart. It is not difficult to do, these days. I try to drop clues. But it is up to each individual, how far and whether (or not) to pursue.
I am very sorry and apologize if the topic of liberty seems political or insensitive.
It has been personally healing for me, but I feel like it is hurtful to people who are still trying to recover from abuse and trauma, and are not in a place to think about it.
I really don’t think the author’s intention was to be mean or manipulative. Liberty is an important message, and we want everyone to hear it. Sorry if the timing is off for you right now.
Liberty is a beautiful abstract concept. I highly endorse it. However, those who do not have the means that I have enjoy less liberty than I do, and that’s not abstract at all, it’s an empirical fact.
20 years,
Totally agree. I was thinking those same things myself. There are parallels in all aspects of life, to our own experiences with spaths. I agree there are likely a multitude of people being coerced, bullied, and blackmailed by the spathy-types in high positions, and if they fight back they are the one’s labeled ‘crazy’.
You are right on”the root of the problem needs to be recognized and a tangible process put in place to minimize or eliminate it. BIG JOB!!! As we well know.
slimone,
The more I think about this “big picture” (i.e. the “BIG JOB”), the more I think that clues to solving it come from pondering such things as codependency and anti-bullying research.
But above all, the first order of business is “sociopath awareness” — as in,
1. no, everyone does NOT have some “good” in them (evil does exist; sociopaths do exist)
2. how evil operates: through deception (not all that appears “good” is actually good!)
3. what evil wants: utter annihilation of the “self” of individuals in order to subjugate and rule over. The more abject the subjugation, the better (according to the sociopath)
How??? In the name of empirical reality, please tell me how we are to weed out sociopaths, when, as a SOCIETY, we can’t stop anyone from enjoying their own ‘”liberty” until AFTER they have victimized someone else? Someone more VULNERABLE?
Maybe you’re making a valid point, but I don’t understand what, in the real world, you think should be done?? If you have an idea about a tangible process, I would love to hear it.
20years
Good observations in your post. It is a parasitic situation. WE recognize the parasitic nature but look how hard it was for us to come to grips with the true nature of sociopathy. WE KNOW about sociopathy now but… people who’ve never dealt with it FAIL to realize the depth of its EVIL destruction. We don’t even have to have secret societies, it can just be those who have their own hidden agenda that leads them to make decisions for the “greater good” of 51%, and not seeing the plight of the 49% who pay the price. It feels I’m caught in the current of an ever faster flow of water, and I don’t have enough strength/power to stop the tide.
No wonder people hope that a alien race somewhere out in the universe will stop man from destroying humanity. No wonder GOD wiped man from the earth, save Noah and his family.
The “greater good” advocates reminds me of this….
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
NotWhatHeSaidofMe,
Totally agree about “greater good.” It is absolutely absurd, when an outside group of people is making decisions to rob from one person to give to another. That is meddling. That is controlling.
There should be no “greater” in “good.” There should just be “good.”
Sacrifice is good and a beautiful thing, if it is done voluntarily and with fully informed consent (which is a very deep concept actually). Then it is an offer from the heart.
If it is coerced, then it is theft and if it is done in the name of “greater good” that is a perverted manipulation designed to rob us of our human goodness. Then it is a heart wounding and a product of evil.
NotWhatHeSaidOfMe…That post of yours really defines greater Good!!!!!
Socialists and Non Socialists
Trade Union Members and NONs
Jews and Gentiles
People of all
Color Creed and Faith!!!
ie Normal human beings!!!!
In Shakespeare’s play ‘Merchant Of Venice’ there is a lovely speech by Shylock which starts with “I am a Jew”
At the end of the day what defines us as human is kindness giving and compassion. When those are lacking we say the individual is disordered. The greater good has to be decided by policy and effective implementation of policies that impact all citizens positively. Is that a Utopian idea? I do not believe so. WE Survivors know that people should be judged by actions and not by words.
And 20years, in the US we are not ruled by outsiders who make decisions for us. We vote those people into office. They represent us…or are supposed to. The Good part gets sabotaged by bribery, lobbies with great financial resources and by people who forget that their job is to create a better social and economic country for ALL. Ethnocentrism exists in all human cultures. The greater good would involve evolving as a species to really understand that we ARE all connected. Whats good for the goose should be good for the Gander.
Thank you Imara
I am so glad you get the example of how oppressive the theory of the “greater good” is. (I am so glad my words were not twisted.)
All my life, the worst abuse was done by people who thought themselves so “good” that they refused to see the consequences of their behavior in reality destroyed the lives of the vulnerable who did not want their intercession.
“Greater Good” is not evolution, it’s oppression by the arrogant who think themselves so infallible that intent matters more to them than actual consequences…. “Greater good” is NEVER chosen by those who make up the sacrificed group, it’s forced on the vulnerable who make rules for others that they would never submit to for themselves… and then expect the damaged to be grateful to them for their oppression.
Once upon a time, I tried to explain to a “greater Good” proponent the difference between Compassion and empathy. She never did get it. Then I realized, it’s because she was unable to feel empathy, and no explanation was possible. We know what missing empathy means.
“Greater good” compassion is not a substitute for empathy but it does explain why these type don’t comprehend the oppression of their policy and why they think themselves so “good” to do that to vulnerable people who are helpless to stop them.
“greater good” requires abandonment of a percentage of the population so that the “greater” can benefit… and thus “greater good” does not embrace that “we are all connected”… thus my reference to the famous Niemöller quote, which of course was his poem about the “greater good” policy implemented by the Nazis.
Thank you for understanding and not changing the meaning of my words, that every time a group of people are sacrificed so that others benefit, eventually those glad for the “benefits” of “the greater good” have no one to stand up for them.
@edit
“Greater good” is NEVER chosen by those who make up the sacrificed group; it’s forced on the vulnerable sacrificed group by powerful others who created the very rules that they (the greater good) would never submit to for themselves.”
Imara, I’m not sure what you are trying to say, exactly. I would like to understand. Is it that individuals cannot be counted upon, of their own volition, to take care of each other through kindness, giving and compassion; therefore we must have rulers to make and implement policies, that these rulers we ostensibly choose are supposed to be the creators and enforcers of a certain kind of society that has something kind of one size fits all, decided upon by these rulers, that is supposed to work for everyone, without any special interests allowed (including any lobbying groups whatsoever)? Or did I twist your meaning? If so, please clarify.
Basically, I think the greater good means things like (but not necessarily limited to) access to food, education and healthcare, even for those people who may not have the means to acquire it for themselves.
Yes mustard that’s exactly my point!!
20years yes….I do think you misunderstood me. I do believe that the greater good becomes possible because human kind as a whole has evolved through cooperation rather than through conflict. My kids went to a private school but I still willingly paid (more than just property taxes that are mandated) for our public education, volunteered in a program that allowed underprivileged kids in the school district to apply competitively to good universities and basically did that because I know that each kid that succeeds makes the place I live in better. Did that in the interest of the larger or greater good.
In this whole discussion I believe we forget that we can catch more flies with honey than we can with vinegar. Psychopaths use this to derail the normal process of societal interaction. my real point in all this then is that the Libertarian path is not going to be an answer. There may not be easy answers. However I think that we can all get by with a little help from others.
I dispute that the all the suffering of the poor and less fortunate is caused by sociopathy. To be sure, it is rampant in government, but if a person is born into a family of (let’s say) below average intelligence, there is no way that person can support themselves or a family. If they can’t aspire to making much more than minimum wage, how on earth can they be independent? If they can’t acquire an education and such, what do they do??
I do hope that a family with below average intelligence isn’t going to be unable to support themselves. Half the families on the planet have below average intelligence! And what IS intelligence, after all? There are so many kinds of intelligence. Some who do poorly in school have excellent ability to distinguish good from bad, while highly intelligent academics may not be able to intellectually decipher good from bad. Some with low IQ’s on testing may have astounding emotional intelligence, or excellent insight into themselves (another form of intelligence). Or they may know soil, or fish.
But the point you are probably asking is this: how does someone who has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to offer in trade, survive or thrive? How does someone who is disabled and entirely unable to produce anything get by? These are excellent questions. Such people are not common. But they certainly exist. And because they have no way to survive independently, they MUST rely on reliable other people. Friends, family, charitable acquaintances, charitable non-acquaintances, etc. I trust such voluntary, family, charitable organizations to do such things much more than I trust government. Those who have no family, no friends, no acquaintances? What of those? There is only voluntary charity from more distant people left perhaps? Or forced “charity” by a government that isn’t particularly reliable? The number of people truly disabled is small, and Americans are remarkably charitable people. And those who think Americans as a whole aren’t sufficiently charitable voluntarily, instead of forcing them to be more “charitable”, should consider the much more honorably tactic of volunteering more of their own time and treasure.
We will always have the poor, because the definitions of economic poverty change as standards of living increase. Royalty of 200 years ago were horribly impoverished compared to the poor of today, in terms of entertainment, health care, indoor plumbing, electricity, and many others. The definitions of poverty shift constantly. Poverty in the US is NOTHING like poverty in West Africa. There is no comparison. The shifting definitions do not mean that poverty doesn’t exist. It means that we need to be careful in our wars on poverty to be thoughtful and principled in our battles, because the battles will ALWAYS be there, and if we fight them with unprincipled means, we will become increasingly unprincipled people.
We will always have the poor, because somebody always has to be on the bottom.
Redefining ‘poor’ does not address the problem
And are we talking about the whole planet?
And “voluntary charity from more distant people perhaps?” Perhaps not.
And I think that discussions of royalty from distant eras is irrelevant.
His point is that royalty used to live worse than how poor people live today because being poor is subjective.
If you gave everyone a million dollars some would blow it all on junk, others would give to charity, and some would invest it wisely and make another million. That is because inequality is not an objective problem that needs to be fixed but simply the reality that we are all different.
It’s utopianism to think that you can create a world where everyone is virtuous and nobody will suffer.
The reality is we have to make the best of what we have and freedom is the best we have come up with yet because it alleviates suffering and provides the best quality of life for the most people. This is proven reality. Hypothetical justifications for statism are unfounded.
Again, respectfully, royalty did not live worse than we do now. Adjusted for inflation and an ever more complex society, royalty has usually been privileged to live just fine according to the standards of their day.
Mustard55, I will have to disagree with you. royalty of the past did not live better than we do today by standards that most progressives value–health care, education, public health, environmental cleanliness, and many others. Nor by things that libertarians value–liberty, peace, honesty, integrity, voluntarism, pursuit of health care, infant mortality improvement, etc. I was comparing not to standards of their day, but directly comparing royalty of the past to the poor of today. The poor are wealthier today than the royalty of the past by a profusion of measurements (but not all yardsticks, of course).
The point being that poverty is relative, and it changes. There is no clear goal line that we will attain in overcoming poverty. Therefore it is particularly important to stay moral in the battle against poverty or we will inculcate into the generations the acceptability of immorality.
Moral/principled to a libertarian importantly means “no initiation of force or fraud” by humans against humans.
I agree with you that not all suffering is from sociopathy. I was hugely over simplifying in order to make the point that this article is very relevant to the discussion of sociopathy.
You are describing all the same problems that are very troubling to all of us.
But to say that government provides the best health care is to ignore that the US healthcare system has been taken over by government regulators and insurance companies.
To say government provides the best education is to ignore the failure of public schools and the great success of school choice.
To say that raising the minimum wage helps the poor ignores the much larger problem of inflation, which is a tax on the poor. Wages can not keep up with the rate of inflation.
To say the “government provides” ignores the reality that government doesn’t produce ANYTHING. It takes. And then it creates a huge bureaucracy of middle men to distribute resources which free people are capable of doing themselves, and more efficiently, with more leftover for the poor and needy.
Spontaneous order may not be perfect, but it generally works a lot better than central planning.
Show me an example of how free markets hurt people and I will show you that your complaint is not with capitalism, but with the regulators who want to control the markets.
This is a great question, worthy of much careful thought. The way you worded it is interesting, “what do THEY do?” (emphasis on the struggling person themselves, perhaps working to solve their own problem, as opposed to “what do WE do about this?” which would be our swooping in to rescue)
I would suggest that the answer to your hypothetical question about a hypothetical disadvantaged family would be solved INDIVIDUALLY. Each family or person might solve it differently, depending upon individual circumstances. A one-size-fits-all solution would not bring about the best possible outcomes and might in many cases prevent the best possible outcome from being achieved, on an individual basis. It would remove the rights of the individuals to find the solution which best fits their own personal circumstances.
But taking the focus off the poor below average intelligence person in your example, let’s turn right around and place some focus on some of the societal contributing factors. This is where considering that unrecognized and disregarded sociopathy in government and business might play a factor in that individual’s plight. I’m certain it does. Though as you say, and I agree, not ALL the suffering is caused by sociopathy.
So I think the solution lies in a couple of places: one, empower the individual to solve their own problems, and two, spread sociopathy awareness among the population so that we will go to the root of the problem and not a bandaid.
In my hypothetical example, empower them exactly how?
mustard55, I will gladly get back to you later this evening! 🙂 I love this question. But I have to leave the computer for a few hours.
Here is a good example of a sociopath political friendly with another sociopath…this article is on the net not sure the origin of the article.
Subject: Fwd: INTERESTING! (small world)
He is Edward “Ed” Mezvinsky, born January 17, 1937.
Then you’ll probably say, “Who is Ed Mezvinsky?”
Well, he is a former Democrat congressman who represented
Iowa’s 1st congressional district in the United States House
of Representatives for two terms, from 1973 to 1977.
He sat on the House Judiciary Committee that decided
the fate of Richard Nixon.
He was outspoken saying that Nixon was a crook and a
disgrace to politics and the nation and should be impeached.
He and the Clintons were friends and very politically
intertwined for many years.
Ed Mezvinsky had an affair with NBC News reporter
Marjorie Sue Margolies and later married her after his wife
divorced him.
In 1993, Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky, then a freshman
Democrat in Congress, cast the deciding vote that got
President Bill Clinton’s controversial tax package through
the House of Representatives.
In March 2001, Mezvinsky was indicted and later pleaded
guilty to 31 of 69 counts of bank fraud, mail fraud, and
wire fraud.
***Ed Mezvinsky embezzled more than $10 million dollars from
people via both a Ponzi scheme and the notorious Nigerian
E-mail scams.
He was found guilty and sentenced to 80 months in
federal prison.
After serving less than five years in federal prison,
he was released in April 2008 and remains on
federal probation.
To this day, he still owes $9.4 million in restitution to his
victims.
About now you are saying, “So what!”
Well, this is Marc and Chelsea Mezvinsky.
That’s right; Ed Mezvinsky is Chelsea Clinton’s father-in law.
Now Marc and Chelsea are in their early thirties and purchased
a 10.5 million dollar NYC apartment
(after being married in George Soros’ mansion).
Has anyone heard mention of any of this in any of the media?
If this guy was Jenna or Barbara Bush’s,
or better yet, Sarah Palin’s daughter’s
father-in- law, the news would be an
everyday headline and every detail would
be reported over and over.
And yet say there are no double standards in political reporting.
And people are already talking about Hillary as our next President!
And then there is possibly Chelsea for president in our future!
The cycle never ends! Lying and corruption seem to
make Democrat candidates more popular.
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
When the government fears the people, there is liberty.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter
and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
~ ~Abraham Lincoln
—
Good old partisan politics, I see
With all due respect, Abraham Lincoln could not have foreseen the very real threats to America from outside.
How does the fact that sociopaths can be found in all walks of life and all political parties negate the libertarian philosophy? There are a fair number of sociopaths who call themselves Christians. Does this negate Christianity? Or mean we can’t discuss Christianity here? I certainly understand being wary and skeptical of people, even people here on LF. After my incident with the spath, I trusted no one. But a philosophy? How do you mistrust a philosophy? The fact that we are all human means we are all going to fail in some way or other trying to live up to our standards. But that doesn’t negate the standards, does it? Why throw out the baby with the bathwater? What does that accomplish except to say, “I give up, there’s nothing that can be done because power will corrupt everyone, and politicians are all evil.” How is this thought constructive, unless we move to an island where we can isolate ourselves and live off the grid? Or just give up and constantly complain about the way things are?
I believe in my heart that it is wrong to try and force the “American way of life” as our government sees it on other countries and especially to use force to do so. Therefore, I must say I like the idea of “live and let live”; it reminds me very much of the prime directive in Star Trek – The Next Generation. I like the libertarian philosophy very much. I never knew anything about it, but find myself nodding at the concepts because they describe how I feel. They are just concepts. They are not people. But when a core number of people start to adopt a new concept, it can spread in the mass consciousness.
I wonder if it is possible to discuss the pure philosophy separate and apart from individuals who may or may not abuse power in their respective political parties? It is my belief that the more we can simply think about and discuss what what we feel is good and right, and how we envision our ideal society, the closer we are to bringing these ideals and visions to life.
I can’t speak for others, but my gut instinct tells me that Dr. Hunt does not stand to gain any power or accolades if we agree with him, nor does he get paid off to post this. The way I interpret his article is that he is asking us to consider a different form of government that is counter to what we have always known. He is asking us to think outside the box, and perhaps a little more constructively and optimistically. Whether or not there will be sociopaths hiding behind this philosophy….well, that’s a given. They are everywhere.
It is my undying belief, in spite of all I have been through with sociopaths, narcissists, and other disordered people who have betrayed me, that it is possible to live in a kinder, gentler world. However, this world doesn’t just “happen” to us. We have to create it. We start with changing how we think. When our thoughts become kinder and gentler, our world can become so.
And how will we resolve it when we have “isolated ourselves and live off the grid” and internal conflicts arise?
Thank you for asking this question, mustard55. I wasn’t pointing that out as a path to happiness. I was saying that it is a way to avoid world politics – by isolating oneself on an island. I was speaking almost metaphorically.
Avoiding world politics seems a little irresponsible and self-serving., speaking as a citizen of the world.
This is not at all what I was suggesting, and I’m sorry if you misunderstood my post. I tried to explain it afterward, but I don’t know if I will be understood that time, either. I think the medium of a written forum leaves so much room to be misunderstood.
stargazer
My time with my ex taught me a life lesson:
Whether or not you get heard depends a LOT on whether the other person is seeking to understand or whether instead, they are seeking to WIN by twisting the meaning of your words.
It’s not MIScommunication, it’s REFUSAL to communicate.
No matter how many times I asked my husband, I’d beg him…”I’m not asking you to agree with me, I just want you to understand what I am saying.”
There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT (refuse to)see.
Yes!!!! Stargazer,
I’m pleased to see that you brought up Christianity in this thread, for several reasons but will just alight on one for the moment. This is in relation to what you said about believing in your heart that it is wrong to try and force the “American way of life” on other countries….
I have a lifelong friend whom I love very much, who is very liberal and there is a lot of overlap on our viewpoints but this is one sticking point. She is an agnostic-atheist/secular humanist. She says (and I agree) that it is “wrong” for missionaries to go abroad and wipe out native cultures, even though it is very well meaning. It is short-sighted and ignorant and eradicates foreign ways of doing things, which once lost (generationally) might not ever be recovered. An example is here in our own land where Native American Indian cultures were systematically wiped out through disease, removal from their heritage lands, and loss of language and culture. So I wholeheartedly agree with her. Yet, when it comes to our “exporting Democracy” to other countries, she cannot get beyond her liberal bias, and believes this is a good thing, due to the oppressed people and how we must go in there to “help.”
My viewpoints on offering help to others are that it is OK for me to offer, and it is OK for them to refuse. I may set the terms of what I am willing and able to offer, and they may negotiate with me. If we can come to an agreement, then we have a deal. But I cannot force my “help” on others — that is wrong. And a better way for me to help is to ask if they even want my help. Then, if they say hes, to ask, what kind of help do you need? How do you think I can help you? To allow them to determine this for themselves. That is far more respectful. Rather than my arrogantly deciding 1) that they need and want help, and 2) what form that help is going to take, and 3) not listening to their feedback, but me making all of the decisions about their welfare for them.
Hear hear, 20 years. And then we wonder why so many countries hate Americans.