By | June 11, 2008 53 Comments

The psychopath as anti-saint

Consider this extract from a piece by Anthony Daniels in The New Criterion:

In his essay, The Empire of the Ugly, the great Belgian Sinologist and literary essayist Simon Leys recounts the story of how, writing one day in a café, a small incident gave him an insight into the real nature of philistinism.

A radio was playing in the background, a mixture of banal and miscellaneous chatter and equally banal popular music. No one in the café paid any attention to this stream of tepid drivel until suddenly, unexpectedly and inexplicably, the first bars of Mozart’s clarinet quintet were played.

“Mozart,” Leys says, “took possession of our little space with a serene authority, transforming the café into an antechamber of Paradise.”

The other people in the café, who until then were chatting, playing cards, or reading the newspaper, were not deaf to the radio after all. The music silenced them, they looked at each other, disconcerted. “Their disarray lasted only a few seconds: to the relief of all, one of them stood up, changed the radio station and re-established the flow of noise that was more familiar and comforting, which everyone could then properly ignore.”

Here is the conclusion Leys draws:

At that moment, I was struck by an obvious fact that has never left me since: that the real philistines are not those people incapable of recognizing beauty — they recognize it only too well, with a flair as infallible as that of the subtlest aesthete, but only to pounce on it, and smother it before it can take root in their universal empire of ugliness.

Thus philistinism is a positive, not merely a negative force.

In the article Daniels mentions other examples including that of Liberian rebels sawing off the legs of the only Steinway grand piano in the land, thereby rendering it useless. Now maybe this is just about snobs objecting to the blue-collar tastes of regular folks. But let’s take Ley’s thought about philistinism seriously for a minute and then apply it to psychopathy. So,

IF real philistines are not those people incapable of recognizing beauty — they recognize it only too well, with a flair as infallible as that of the subtlest aesthete, but only to pounce on it, and smother it before it can take root in their universal empire of ugliness,
THEN real pychopaths are not those people incapable of recognizing good — they recognize it only too well, with a flair as infallible as that of the saint, but only to pounce on it, and smother it before it can take root in their universal empire of sin.

I have never bought the idea that psychopaths cannot empathise with others; that they’re radically other, either brain-damaged or animals. To me the psychopath’s exquisite ability to know exactly how to hurt others suggests that he is brilliantly attuned to the inner worlds of others. Nor does the idea that psychopaths can’t tell the difference between good and evil stand up. Their infallible nose for doing wrong is evidence that the psychopath is an anti-saint.

One definition of saint is “persons eminent for holiness….those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life”. Turn that on it’s head and you have the psychopath.

In my humble opinion, that is.

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I have blogged on the same. But I called psychopaths a “reverse Jesus” you know the Devil.

Ox Drover

Dr. Steve,

I definitely agree with you that the “run of the mill” psychopath KNOWS good from evil…mean from nice…hateful from caring….they just don’t CARE. Some of them, however, also knowing good from evil, ENJOY doing evil for the sake of doing evil and the pain that it will inflict upon others.

I remember an old episode of STar Treck where there was some alien being that “Fed” on the negative emotions of the crew, and Captain Kirk had everyone laugh and they defeated the alien. Sometimes I think the psychopaths “feed” the energy of our pain. The more pain for us, the more joy for them.

While the rebels might not have “appreciated” the piano, they knew that destroying it would show their hatred for the prior owners.

Jesus warned his disciples “cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them into the mire and then turn and rend you.”

Swine are the ultimate “psychopaths” in the animal kingdom, and because the pearls are not appreciated, and the expected food would not be forthcoming, they would be quite angry and turn on the person who offered them the pearls and tear them apart. Literally “rending”(tearing) the people.

When we offer our “pearls” of love to the psychopath, who is unable to appreciate the value of the “pearls” in their disappointment and anger they turn and “rend” us.

There are other psychopaths, however, that I think would still rend you “just for the fun of it” even if you fed them what they wanted. But none of them “appreicate” the “pearls” we cast before their feet THE WAY WE DO.

But, just as they, because they have no empathy or conscience, determine from our behavior and our language what THEY THINK we “think” and “feel”–we are only able to determine by their behavior what WE THINK they must think and feel. Because there is so LITTLE COMMON GROUND between the two “species” (psychopath and non-psychopath) I think we know less about how “they” think than we do about how the pig/swine thinks, because again, we can only OBSERVE their behavior.


A relationship with a philandering spouse is bad, but a relationship with a sociopath no doubt exposes you to the wiles of evil in the flesh. His deep empathy was something that attracted me, but when it disappeared it was not only bewildering, but frightening.

“Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep’s clothing.”


Right on OxD et al,
The P thrives on power control manipulation and often risk taking. These behaviors are like a drug to the P, and as they are dead emotionally, these behaviors make them feel “alive”.

There is no “good” way to do power, control and manipulation, hence we are left with their ugly and evil destructive actions.

I have come to believe that at least my P is VERY self destructive, and by hurting and using others he deflects some of that destructive behavior away from himself. If there is any justice it is that despite the wake of pain they leave behind, inevitably they go over the falls and are churned up by their own callous actions.

Small consolation for the victims, but as Martha Stout points out, life for the P’s usually is a downward spiral. They may collect and flash some fancy toys and people and do-dads on the way through, but they do not WIN. They do not know inner joy or peace or happiness.

Those of us who can experience joy and peace, altho scarred by the P, can find happiness. Perhaps this is why the P’s want to hurt the rest of us. Deep down they know they are missing a vital part of life, and they know that their “victories” are hollow and short lived.



Now that I’m on the other side of the relationship, I too, believe they know what they are doing. Once, with God’s help, I had the guard over my heart, my husband could no longer hurt me. He would scream and holler and I would just walk away. Unhurt, unaffected by it. That made him madder. I started doing my own comparison and couldn’t for the life of me figure out who this person was and what was motivating him to do what he did. He only did this to me and our youngest daughter. The oldest daughter was never talked down to, but my youngest and myself bore the brunt of his anger. I know that they have to know what they are doing. Do they know why, maybe, maybe not. I think they do, but their own stubborn pride and self will keep them from speaking truth because it might make them look bad, but they just don’t get their horrible anger and game playing reveals a side that is very unappealing. And as in my case, my husband said I turned the kids against him. No. It was his actions and words that did that. I kept throwing the kids at him and he just threw them back!

I so often believed it had to be me and I just wasn’t doing life right. He’s older than I, and thought since he lived longer, he must have it together. Took me a while to figure out that wisdom does not come with age. God says that wisdom comes from asking Him for it. So age isn’t a factor. The people I was around thought I was the dumber as I was the younger. No. It really was them and I see their reflection in so many of the perpetrators pictured here. I was such a silent observer for so long, that I didn’t even have an active role in my own life. What a dreary existence. But it would have to be more dreary being them. To have no empathy and try to rob someone else of their’s has to leave them empty. But then again, they are as happy as they know how to be. I love to laugh and it’s so much better having someone to laugh with, but I provide my own amusement and can laugh at myself. They can’t.

I always figured I should be the insecure one. I grew up without parents and that solid home front. The ones in question had all kinds of family functions and family around. My husband had a home, an over home and a down home. Three places he could call home. I just wanted one and even that was denied me, because he hated what he had. Never finished the house that should have been indicative of our life’s work and talent. Now I feel at such loose ends because I never got to finish what I set out to do with another. All because he is in a different time frame than I. He lives in his past and I’m not there. But I truly believe he is aware of the hurt he caused, but to own part of it, means he has to admit he was to blame as well.


I think these sociopaths, etc., find pleasure in the external, and we find it in the internal and eternity. Lasting qualities that go with us through life. That’s why Christ told us to lay our treasures in Heaven where they can’t be stolen from us. They might try, but they walk away empty handed, but we walk away sadder, but oh so much wiser. They want to impress with their looks, cars, houses, etc. I want character, wisdom, joy, peace, contentment, etc. All the things everyone here has, too. You all have helped me prove that I wasn’t 100% wrong.


P.S. to OxD, I don’t think the message about swine is that they are evil, but that they are unclean and in biblical times one couldn’t go to temple until uncleanness was removed. The passage teaches that it is futile to try to teach holy concepts to people who don’t want to listen and will only tear apart what we say. Not that we should stop giving the Word to unbelievers, but we should be discerning so as not to waste precious time. But for sure preaching to a devil not only is a waste of time, but can be dangerous too!!

Ox Drover

Dear Benz,

Yes, I agree with what you were saying, and my analogy was not 100% on, but having grown up with swine, and knowing that they do not “appreciate” anything but food and if they are expecting it and don’t get it, they become quite angry and an angry hog is a violent hog. We still have “wild” swine around here and I have hunted “wild hogs” (actually they are domestic hogs that have gone “native”) and it is quite a dangerous “sport” if you are not careful.

While swine were “unclean” in that time and the disciples that Jesus was teaching knew that, he I think was also teaching them that there ARE times that it is FUTILE to try to give “good gifts” (trying to teach holy concepts) to people who are OBVIOUSLY unappreciative and will become so angry that they will “turn and rend you.”



I’m glad you’re back. I, too, was away from the site for awhile (enjoying life free from a S. and all the mental wrestling it took to do it) and when I came back I was disappointed not to see your posts. I always found them wise.

It’s good to hear your thoughts.


Dr Steve,

Mozart is so intricately Melodic….why would you turn the station? MY point is that something awful is happening to society! We are being conditioned by society to have little to no feelings….Look at what has happened in Darfur and Ruwanda….Politics and Business run society now…and some Ceo’s could give a damn….they may even be sociopaths….And China by the way is responsible for Darfur as the Sudan is where they purchase Oil! They don’t recognize the genocide at all! Their government is most corrupt….American politicians made a big mistake when we opened our doors to China! They say Gengis Kahn was a psychopath he murdered and raped all throughout China and they say many Chinese have genetic relations to him! Go figure! I studied Chinese politics and everyone should know this….the chinese have long felt they would become the leaders of the world because they are the “MIDDLE COUNTRY”…..As the Chinese become more advanced technilogically and their infastructure stronger they will be at a considerable advantage than us. And India is not far behind them.
China is footing the bill for the U.S. Our economy is so shaky now….we have got to honker down and solve the two major crisis in the country…Housing and the Market! OUR OWN MARKET ANALYSTS ARE NOT INVESTING IN AMERICAN BUSINESS…THEY TELL YOU TO GO TO CHILE,BRAZIL,PARTS OF EUROPE, INDIA, CHINA…..What is that saying to you!

I just rant a bit because I feel so disgusted by the blatant disconcern of people….because of their conditioning to “not care”… who….our govt who is indebted to the Chinese….and although the U.S. did stand for Darfur in the United Nations…and China did not…. nothing has changed! Because the U.S. doesn’t have power! What do you think of that! One nation under God….indivisible with liberty and justice for all!

How would you like to work for $2 a day? Or Better yet…..have a millitia come and kill most of your family and rape the rest…..that’s China and the Sudan!


Mine is in Church every week.
And more, he pours it on…you should see his look of piety….

Yeah,makes one want to barf.
We know, they know….and it sucks we have to watch the world be oblivious. It is a burden,this knowledge, but it frees us too.

I don’t know that they fool that many- I don’tknow how many people actually consider them pious, I think it’s more laziness.
The P hasn’t attacked them yet….That’s the way peopleare,in and out of church, if it’snot their problem…whatever.

The best we can do is commiserate and learn to avvoid Ps in the future.


As far as the P con artist in my life….His last communication with me was a Christmas Card…and here is what it says:

You are a Wonderful Reflection of God’s Love. You are one of those reare people who keeps the spirit of Christmas glowing brightly through the year, because your life is truly a reflection of God’s love…The caring things you say and do bring Christ’s peace, hope and joy to everyone around you….Everyday you show what Christian love is really about through your smiles and laughter, your compassion and concern, your warmth and kindness. God has blessed me with knowing you and, this Christmas, I pray that He will bless you with everything good and that His love will always light your way. Merry Christmas…Then he writes…The only thing I can say to you is I’m sorry for the way things went. I just hope than we can agree on everything and we both have to be open minded. Have a Merry Xmas and may all your dreams come True. Sincerely and always Sill your friend Love Dennis.

This was after I had found out that he had refinanced everything…there was no money to be found….I had gone to an attorney…I had gone to the prosecutors office at that time….and I stopped talking to him!

This man goes to church every week and lets you know he is a good Catholic….It disturbs me….Is it part of the Con….does he want to fit in….He definitely doesn’t abide by the 10 commandments or the Christian or Catholic way for that matter.

I was so desperate at one point I was looking to my priest to a christian minister and to Landmark education for answers and help….I brought Dennis to a christian minister I liked to talk to him…to no avail. I brought him to an introduction to the forum…all about integrity….I think I wrote about it on here….no avail…..because he had his own agenda…he came to apease me….not to do what was right!

The damage is done! I can never get it out of my mind….not without shock therapy! And I don’t want to do that! It hurts so much!

Ox Drover

Dear Trish,

I hear your pain, your anguish, your betrayal. I do see one thing though you said “I can never get it out of my mind…”

YES you can! Yesterday I received proof that before he was arrested last august, the Trojan Horse P (who had vandalized other things around my house and property) had apparently poured something into the crankcase of my expensive lawn tractor adn “froze up” the engine–and other things here that had motors—OH


To eyesopened,
Thank you and ditto! For me it’s like someone else is doing the writing but they are using my thoughts and life’s examples. I was telling a friend today that all this just shouldn’t be. What a grand life we would all have if we were of one accord. My children and I don’t argue and play games. I have other friends that I get along with and we don’t fight. I still wonder the correlation between a man’s(woman’s too) sex drive and the rest of his life. That’s when the weird started for me. I was fine before sex ever entered the picture. After the “sexual awakening” is when the awful started. Prior to that time, everything was cordial and consistent. Once sex entered the picture, everything became distorted. I never knew how I was perceived.

I think in my case, my husband didn’t want wifed. He wanted mothered. I really don’t know because he’d never admit to anything. So I speculate, but from a distance. I know what I endured wasn’t much compared to the awful physical abuse so many endure, but we were supposed to be a real Christian family and all we were doing was playing house. I felt so alone until someone came along and told me I was being abused. And now I really don’t feel alone as I’ve found other “comrades” who’ve been there. If only they could be stopped before the damage is done. I believe there are a lot of really nice people who have redeeming qualities if only they were re-educated. I just don’t want to be the teacher! The surprising part is when the tables are turned, how upset they become and act hurt that they would be on the receiving end of what they’ve done. My response is, “how do you like me now?” Really sucks to be them. I’ve finally realized that I really am not responsible for what others do. Boy, I sure was carrying a load of guilt for a long time. I remember those days and I can smile now. I was probably the saddest, most woe-be-gone woman ever. Now I smile a lot so people wonder what I’m up to and I don’t give away my trade secrets. Silence really is golden.



Having been raised the granddaughter of Iowa farmers and then married to a large hog producer then moving to wild hog hunt country in Texas, I too have an — intimate!? — knowledge of hogs and they are no more evil than any other animal, instinctive and can be deadly.

Not to belabor the discussion of hogs but to clarify the passage, the reference speaks to the waste of the Word on unclean and unappreciative gluttonous behavior devouring anything in its path, your time and energy, but the analogy to swine is smelly hogs being hogs, not to evil in this passage, but then this is a good point in calling attention to different perspectives of the Word based on personal experience.

Talking about hogs, now I’m hungry for an “Iowa” chop!



You do know that the P is reflecting & exploiting your very own righteousness and goodness by sending you that card, don’t you?

I think that’s what it means in the 10 Commandments..”Thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in VAIN”….is precisely what that man is doing. He is USING our beloved Creator for his own sinister manipulations. Sickening, isn’t it?

And him writing…”The only thing I can say to you is I’m sorry for the way things went.” Is a blatant non-apology. He never takes responsibility/accountability for any harm he’s done to you. He never will. He is incapable of humility.

And…”I just hope than we can agree on everything and we both have to be open minded.” He wants you to see things HIS way. He is still trying to manipulate you, deceive you. Don’t let him. Throw that piece of garbage card away.

And I agree that the world is pretty scary place right now. The scope of nefarious, wickedness is beyond overwhelming, entering into surrealism. There’s a spiritual war going on right now as I type this and we, all of us, need to be aware that it is happening. But I suggest you keep your faith strong and rely on the compassion & love of the Lord, through bible study and prayer, and simple, yet kind acts, words, and deeds to those who suffer as we do.


I must say that my ex was a sociopath born of an extremely religious sociopath. Both knew how to use religion for bad ends. I know lots of people in here are very religious, and have nothing against this, but I do not believe in God. I’d describe myself as a humanist.

However (just in case others like me are in here), I recently re-read Dawkins’s ‘The Selfish Gene’ and was so unexpectedly moved by its exploration of good and evil and how they may have emerged. It made complete sense to me and made me believe in love and the goodness of most of mankind more than ever. (And thankful for it).

The best thing about the book, though, is the analysis of Game Theory, where they test a selfish strategy over lots of generations. The result is that selfishness is NOT an Evolutionary Stable Strategy! THAT’S why sociopaths are only 4% (ish) of us! It doesn’t matter to me that it’s all borne of randomness – the products of it alone are beautiful enough for me.

So – The Good Will Out!

Oh boy—mine was reverse..he’d not receive communion b/c of his “state.” I am afraid to go into details, but he was clever. He knew that’d he’d look serious about his faith…etc.

But I will tell you he let it slip a few times, how “seriously” he took being a Christian. But to know those facts one would have to be around all the time- his act sufficed for his audience. But he can’t keep it up all the time- just recently he blurted out something obscene.

I see himnow, hands folded, head down, soooo serious, and I wonder how I ever believed it. Knowing what I know…his sanctimony reeks…. and I see him as a snake.

Ox Drover


Only part of my blog posted, what I was going to say was that though for one day I was really blasted, angry, enraged at finding this out, it (the anger, rage etc) didn’t last 3 months like it WOULD have last year at this time when I was NUTSO from rage, betrayal, fear etc.

These things dont effect me like they did, as I have gained strength, I AM GETTING THESE THINGS OUT OF MY MIND, they are not hurting me like they did.

YOU will get there too, as you heal, and you are a VERY strong woman and just to have survived this far proves it to me. Hang in their girlfriend, you will get there too! (((hugs))))

Benz, I know the analogy with the swine wasn’t 100% on, but was just trying to show that when we give “gifts” (like with the pearls) to “swine” (in human form) they don’t appreciate the gifts’ value, and become angry that you didn’t give them what they wanted (in the case of swine, food) and will “turn and rend you” for your trouble.

No, I don’t think ANY animal is inherently evil or bad, even the ones that, like hogs, CAN and WILL “rend you”—-I’ve got a childhood scar on my leg to prove it!—and I think Jesus’ lesson was about trying to teach people who are NOT INTERESTED any more than the swine would be to being “preached to” and that if you try to continue, you will just make those people mad.

But I also see the way WE try to “preach love and peace” to the Ps and they don’t appreciate it any more than the hogs would apprecite pearls, and my Ps have surely “turned and tried to rend me”—so there is a lesson in there for ME at least.

Sometimes I find in the Bible’s teaching more than ONE lesson in the same passage, depending on the circumstances you apply it to. That to me is the BEAUTY of the Bible in showing wisdom in so many differnet ways. Even for the person who is not a believer, there are some good life lessons there. There are also life lessons in the texts of many religions of which I am not a believer in the religion itself, but the wisdom it imparts in philosophy is still very valid to me.

EnnLondon, I believe IF 99.9% of the world WERE evil people (and I don’t believe that, but if I did,) I would still think the 0.1% of the good people would still be the “winners” BECAUSE we CAN LOVE. Not to be able to love or bond has got to be an “evil curse” if you can perceive it–I’m not sure the Ps can perceive it, but even still, how lonely it must be to not be able to love.


I find it very interesting that many of the N’s, P’s, S’s hide behind the cloak of religion. Religious institutions are storehouses for people who want to do good, are giving, caring and loving people…perfect prey for the predators. However, it seems as though these institutions also harbor the infidels who only wear the mask of religious piety.

The N in my life was a practicing masked infidel. He insisted that we go to church every Sunday. I was not a “church goer” but did feel a deep spiritual connection to God. Of course I agreed to sit by his side in church. He was Catholic and I am Lutheran, but I had no objection to worshipping in his church. Every week he would approach the alter to receive communion with his hands held together in a praying gesture and receive the sacrement. Once I became curious and asked why he felt he could receive the sacrement without first going to confession and also because he was divorced. He justified his actions by stating that he felt he had the “right to take communion because God would not punish him for wanting to partake in the sacrement. I found this strange and perplexing. How could a person believe so deeply in the laws of the Catholic church (which is never missed an opportunity to tell how much his religion and the church meant to him) and then bend those laws to meet his needs? He once asked me to take communion with him. I refused. He asked why I would not take communion with him and I told him I would not pretend to be a Catholic and lie in a holy sanctuary. He said no one would know, so who would it hurt. I said it would hurt me and that the act of receiving the sacrement under false pretenses was something I was not willing to do. Of course he retorted in a smug, slimy way “I would not force you to do that”. I told him that when I felt the need to take communion I would attend my own church.

I think this is a clear example of an anti-saint. I don’t know the reason the N felt compelled to attend church weekly. I can only surmise it was out of fear and also to be seen by those in the community as a “good man”. Perhaps he also was trying desperately to get some kind of spiritual fulfillment from the weekly service. I did notice each week,while in church, he was antsy and restless as if he couldn’t wait until the service was over. We never talked about the message in the homilies. We simply left the service and went about our day. He would always have daily bible reading books strewn around his house and would call my attention to them on a regular basis. What a phoney!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe N’s, P’s, S’s do possess a deep attunement to the “inner world of others”. Often the N would say things to me about my inner world that would make me shudder. I call it the sixth sense, the ability to tap into the psyche of another person. It is like radar and gives these individuals the ability to easily spot prey and “pounce upon” them to snuff out their beauty.

I believe the examples written in the article are acts of envy and jeolously. My take on these examples is the philistines stomp out beauty not because they do not want it to enter their universe of ugliness but because beauty and goodness can never enter that universe evil. The Philistines are not capable of emoting real, true goodness and love. When faced with these qualities the N’s, S’s and P’s are repulsed and must take a hard look at their inner cores that lie empty and wanton never to feel anything more. So in order to maintain equalibrium the N’s etc. must stomp out anyone/anything that reminds them of what they truly are………empty.


My ex sociopath was very religious. I was abused by it. When he left he said that I was not actually his spiritual mate, but this other women was. So I say “good, let her deal with you then!”

“Some of them, however, also knowing good from evil, ENJOY doing evil for the sake of doing evil and the pain that it will inflict upon others” OxDrover

Oxdrover-This was my experience to a T. It is so hard to explain to people-that is why I like this blog so much, so many people get it. Until you experience it, you would never believe it. The only time I have ever seen my ex sociopaths face light up was when he was saying mean things to me and then especially on that fateful night. It is really something to behold! He was obviously causing me so much pain that night as was evident from my massive amount of tears. His eyes were lit up with delight and he had this half curled smile on the side of his mouth. I have NEVER seen anything like it.

The sociopath takes pleasure in his cruelty. There is no other way to describe it. And no other way to believe it, until you see it for yourself.

I, also, firmly believe there is something wrong with my exsociopaths brain. It all fits too well with the studies they have done on sociopath’s brain waves. If I could show you pictures of him, you would understand that this man had the flattest affect. I thought he was just calm at first and I liked that about him. But when he maintained that calm through the extreme turmoil, that is when that calm became creepy! I mean really creepy.

Ox Drover

Dear Bird,

I am so sorry that you suffered through this terrible trauma, but you have “faced the devil” and survived. The Bible tells us that no mortal man can see the face of God and survive, but I think we have all had at least a glimpse of SATAN, but we survived—and, THEY ARE GONE!!!!! THAT is the biggest blessing we could have, now we can heal.

My P-son I have absolutely no doubt ENJOYS doing evil, and the Trojan HOrse P as well. To them, even if they get caught and sent to jail or prison, they have still WON if they have inflicted terrible wounds upon you, their victim. Even if they get NOTHING ELSE but this malicious satisfaction from “seeing you bleed” they still feel like they have “won.” And it is all about WINNING and CONTROL and WOUNDING others.

Yes, I also believe that their brains are “hard wired” different from ours and that is part of the problem, but I also think that the intense JOY that they feel in “winning” is a learned response. I base that upon my own observations, maybe Dr. Liane could comment on any studies she knows about.

Many other people I have known or talked to that have been in a relationship with a psychopath all comment about “THE LOOk” that they can give you—one of such intense rage and hatred that once you have seen IT, you can never mistake it for anything else. It is reptilian, penetrating, amost seems like you are really looking Satan in the face…and it may only be there for a few seconds, or it may last for what seems like an eternity. It is the “look of evil” is all I can call it.

The last time I visited my P-son, one minute he is in control spouting his “but mom, what would Jeeeesus do?” and when he became frustrated with me not buying his crap, he got “the look” and immediately switched to bragging about how horrible his crime was. Then in only a few seconds, BACK to “But Mom, what would Jeeesus do?” It was so disconcerting, and for just a moment, he lost control and let his MASK of sweetness slip and let me see what was really behind it. It was SCARY beyond belief. The closest I can describe it is the LOOK on Charlie Manson’s face in that photo that was in all the books and newspaper articles about him. It is bone chilling. MOst people DON’T get it except for the people that make the news for serial crimes of murder etc.

It is good to have people here who DO get it, so you don’t feel like YOU are the “crazy” one—Bird, we are ALL blessed to be away from them. The pain is awful, but it is in the END, a small price to pay for the freedom from their abuse and their FOG. Even knowing what I know now, if that was the price I had to pay, I would pay it again. It’s like “reverse child birth” and instead of GETTING a wonderful baby, you get RID of “Rosemary’s BAby” (that is a movie for you youngsters where Mia Farrow was tricked into having Satan’s child)


ohhh….How I relate to Rosemarys Baby. Although I have not seen the movie in decades.

The stories from Rosemarys baby and Vampires are not just pulled out of thin air. I am convinced that they come from experience with a sociopath/psychopath.

I need support today. I spent last night explaining to someone who knows the Psycho thay they are indeed evil and no,not changed. I ended up writing three follow-up emails and I feel stupid. As if I am over-reacting, not being taken serioulsy. I want to drop this, but it reappears over and over an dhow am I to roll over when I am told the psycho seems to be better based on conversations. We all know they can talk the talk. I feel sick, stupid and embarrassed. As if I am the crazy, judgmental one….

Ox Drover

Oh, Bird, I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings about the comment of Rosemary’s baby, I forgot you are pregnant. Sometimes I let my mouth over run my brain.

It just kind of dawned on me that our pains from the P-relationship are as painful or worse than labor pains, and at the end we GET RID of the DEvil, which is almost as good as having a baby after child birth pains.

Funny thing too, I was told before I had my first child that we could not “remember” the pain, and you know, that is true. I remember that I HAD pain, but not THE pain, and I think I am getting to that point with the psychopathicly-induced pain, I remember that I HAD pain, I can even describe it in minute detail, but I am getting to where I cant REMEMBER IT, if it makes any sense to you women who have given birth out there.

My son D says that is the way he thinks/feels about the pain from his burns from the airplane crash in which my husband died. He says he KNOWS it hurt, and he can describe it, but he can’t REMEMBER or RECALL it any more. He could for quite some time as he pretty much had PTSD from his close encounter to death by burning, but now it is receeding behind “memory”—

I hadn’t thought about that movie for decades either until yesterday and when I go back over it in my memomry, with her husband and her neighbors using her as a VICTIM, it is all so much like a relationship with a psychopath or a family of them or group of them working together. You get suspicious as Rosemary did, you wonder, as rosemary did, and yet you don’t accept the red flags. They just CAN’T be TRUE, nothing “that wild” could be true—and yet it IS TRUE.

The character of Rosemary I think represents us all in so many ways. She was used and duped by the evil forces of the psychopaths in her world without the least concern for her welfare, she was simply a pawn, a means to an end, and boy can we all relate to that.

No offense meant Bird. (((Hugs))))

Thanks OxD-

Your reply means alot. It’s a cost-average thing….I go to a different Mass, and avoid much he does…yet stuff like this comes up. But I have been sucessful getting him warned as other people have complained. He was warned repeatedly actually. It’s just hard- as we all know. He just rolls with it as psychos do….he’s a freaking textbook where anyone else would run in shame….I am suprised he doesn’t wear neon to stickout more.

I think I need to accept my justice in not on this side of eternity.People believe what they believe…and no one can say now I didn’t say something.

Thank God for this place.

Ox Drover


You know the “drill”—they make us appear “crazy” and “no one wants to believe us”—as LONG AS YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN the TRUTH to others he has in a FOG, you will APPEAR crazy in their minds. They CANNOT GET IT—any more than my mother could “get it”—even if they could, they DON’T WANT TO.

The ONLY solution that I know of is to STOP trying to tell people about how evil he is.

It is like trying to teach a pig to sing, it irritates the pig and frustrates you!

BEing VERY SELECTIVE about who you talk to about him, and knowing that the person IS REALLY INTERESTED is the ONLY way you can tell the story and NOT come off as the “evil” one yourself.

It is a shame, but that is the way I have found it all my life. My mother and other people in the FOG just don’t want to hear the truth.

There are none so blind as he who will not see, and none so deaf as he who will not hear.

Jesus preached to the Pharisees continually and they didn’t “get it” either. Because to “get it” they would have had to admit their own wrong attitudes. He also preached to others that even though they “got it” didn’t want to accept it because it would mean they had to ACT on it. You are “preaching” to the same kinds of people.

My advise on that is to “quit casting your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfood and turn and rend you”


Also, I hate to say this, but as long as you interact with the P and the ones he has in a FOG I don’t see how you can completely heal from this with the wounds having the scabs torn off on a fairly regular basis. Can you go to another congregation instead of that one church? Make new friends? Just get away from him completely?


I saw this post on Kathy Krajco’s site. She was talking about character assignation, and it being a fate worse than death. That is what happens in a sociopathic relationship, where evil appears good and good appears evil. She said every person’s most precious possession is your self-image that you carry inside. She had been discussing both the murder of Hamet’s father and the murder of Jesus Christ, both innocents who had their character assignated falsely.

“You needn’t be a Christian to get the import of this story. The narcissist plays the part of the Sanhedrin (which was indeed narcissistic and envious of Jesus). The people of Jerusalem play the part of everyone who listens to his slander and calumny of you, even though it flies in face of the facts of your known conduct, gobbling it up just because it’s juicy and because condemning others makes them feel righteous. If, say, this happens in the workplace, Pontius Pilate plays the part of the boss.

There is nothing worse you can do to a human being.

So, if this has happened to you, your feelings are natural. Don’t make it worse by feeling guilty about them and trying to bury them. You cannot accept it. But you can accept your feelings. So do. You just hunger and thirst for justice. What’s so bad about that?”

I agree HWS, and I applaud your effort.



Sorry for the type, Hamlet not Hamet.

Ox Drover


I think WE ALL “hunger and thirst for justice”—we wouldn’t be human if we didn’t.

Unfortunately just as Jesus didn’t get “justice” from Pilate even though Pilate knew the truth he didn’t have the back bone to stand up to the “popular” outcry, which he COULD have done. Like many people who KNOW the truth, they do nothing, and his name has been an anathama ever since.

Even for non-believers I think that the Bible has SO many good examples of psychopaths and narcissists and their behaviors… Jezebel for one, Abalsom, King DAvid’s son for another, and King DAvid as an enabler of his psychopathic son, etc. David like most of us was human and made some pretty nasty bad choices from adultery to murder, but God still said “he is a man after my own heart”—WHY? Because when David was confronted with his own bad deeds, he REPENTED AND TRIED TO IMPROVE HIMSELF—he did NOT take revenge against King Saul though he had multiple opportunities to kill Saul who was at that time trying to kill him, but DAvid refrained from revenge and let God handle the problem

Jesus confronted the Pharisees and the Jewish “rulers” at the time and you see what He got for his trouble, the typical “whistle blower” character assisination of the Psychopaths who are called out on their own abusive behavior, and when that didn’t work, they crucified him to try to shut Him up. They paid witnesses to lie, paid his friend to betray him, and then discarded the very person they had hired to betray Jesus.

The humble, kind and caring people have always been abused by the psychopaths of this world, and I doubt that it will change any time soon.

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said “you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool ALL of the people ALL of the time.”

There are some people we will never be able to convince that there is even such a thing as a psychopath who appears to be “Mr/Ms. Nice Guy/Gal” no matter how much evidence we have to prove it. People ultimately believe what they WANT to believe, just as WE did back when we believed the psychopath….most/many of us with evidence to the contrary.

I had to get my OWN validation, and I did get SOME legal validation when the psychopaths tried to kill my son C and got arrested, but all in all, until they “shot themselves in the foot” figuratively, I WAS BRANDED A LIAR by my mother, my son C, by his P-wife, the P-son, the Trojan Horse P, and some of my mother’s friends and my neighbors. A very few people trusted me enough to believe what I said was true, and knew me well enough to know I was neither a fool nor a liar, but the PEOPLE WHO COUNTED AT THAT TIME did not.

It was ONLY by God’s Goodness and Grace that my son C and I are alive today, and probably my mother as well. She still does not appreciate or acknowledge that the “hell I raised” did pay off in the end. It is only by God’s grace that my pounding on the parole board’s door got them to rescind the ILLEGAL transfer of him from prison to a half-way house where NO SEXUAL OFFENDER IS ALLOWED TO LIVE—and they KNEW what they were doing was illgal, and only the prospect of a loud mouthed old biddy (ME!!!) standing on the State capitol steps with the media made them take back the parole that they had granted, again, witout giving me the RIGHT afforded to me to speak in person to their “review.”

Because they knew that the media would KNOW that what they did was WRONG and ILLEGAL they “back peddled.” But, whatever it takes to keep him in prison as long as possible.

So, sometimes, but infrequently, I have found in dealing with Ps most of my life, you DO get “justice” to feed your hunger for it, but most of the time, I have never gotten “justice” on this side of the Jordan River. I have no doubt that there will be justice on the other side, though. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord.”

In the meantime, I do my best to “clean up my own act” and do what I can, and trust God for the rest, and accept whatever happens as what is intended. Sometimes my faith is tested, but so was Job’s and he had a lot bigger and meaner Psychopath “after him” than I did, so I guess if he can keep his faith I should at least do the best I can.


To wisernow,

I think the reason so many of disordered people are attracted to Religion is because in the Church community, there is a defined set of rules and ways to act that make one look good. It’s like following a formula.

If I do this and say that, I will look good and people will think I AM good…


When I am not good, I can call it “sin” and pretend I am sorry and everyone will forgive me because I am their Christian brother and we are all full of sin. No one will call it what it is… becaue he who casst the first stone…

It’s the perfect cover.

The Bad Man was a former Minister for Assemblies of God. He told me that as a child he was prone to tantrums and outbursts. When he was 10, he went to a church based summer camp and he had some kind of revival or awakening there. I now believe that what happened there was he learned by watching the other children how to look good and be pleasing to adults by modeling their *religious* behavior. I don’t believe he actually had any kind of spiritual event as he described. I think he got a big fat acting lesson.

I also know of another person, a woman, that displayed disordered behavior to her partner… she is a Yoga teacher with a big following in San Francisco area. No one would believe their “guru” was an abusive psycho, now would they?


to all,

There is nothing I hate more than looking crazy… NOTHING.

If you are considering trying to out a Sociopath, think carefully. Sometimes you have to watch and wait and just put the *idea* in people’s minds that something might be wrong and then remind them to listen to their gut.

That might be all you can do without sacrificing your sanity.

Thanks all. Good to hear from Kathy too. : )
I thought a lot about the talk I had yesterday. It was with a friend who is also clergy,he’s a good friend. Such a good guy, and believes in Good and Evil. So I pointed out the obvious- he’s seen it with his own eyes too-I don’t think what I said was outline with reality or truth…just so few people accept reality or truth. Heck, I didn’t even go into my suspicion that psycho tries to purposefully hit women (pedestrians) while driving. Actually he has, they lived though….a definate pattern and excited behavior afterwards. I could keep listing this stuff, all true…oh well.

Thanks guys…I know, you know and but for the grace of God there they go…


I am not sure what your last post is saying OxD, sorry. My post had absolutely nothing to do with getting justice or feeding a hunger for it.

HolyWaterSalt said she felt she needed support after perhaps taking trying to make a point too far and HWS is also a fan of Kathy’s. Almost the entire post, if you notice the quotes, is Kathy’s, a good message that I happened to agree with, still do.

Kathy was showing just how deeply character assignation has been carried out down through history and how deeply it can affect us. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. No, not everyone feels a sense of justice or obviously neither Hamlet’s father or Jesus Christ would have been murdered.

The victim of a sociopath sometimes feels a need for justice even more intensely. Kathy’s simple message reprinted here for HWS was just to say, recognize your feelings but don’t beat yourself up for having them or for expressing them through actions you tried to take. There is nothing wrong with your heightened sense of feeling a need for justice.

I hope this helps you, HWS. I thought Kathy had a keen sense of understanding and acceptance, and I hope she’s found the peace she deserves.

And OxD, everyone does have their own interpretation of bible passages. Some also have their own interpretation of religion. It makes it personal, but it doesn’t necessarily make it right. Matthew 7:6 holds special meaning for me because I clung to it as an excuse. My relationship with a former church elder who may be a sociopath, caused me to learn many things and I’ll mention just two of them. From personal experience, one danger in reading scripture is misinterpretation, the other is knowing the “rules” (the Word) from a lifetime of religion but refusing to let the Messiah sit at the table and change your life. By misinterpretation, I hadn’t searched deeply enough and I missed some important things. Also I tried to make the Word fit into my life instead of making my life fit into the Word.

Now when I read the Bible, I read more than one translation and/or I use a reference. I don’t want to miss anything and it doesn’t hurt to know what the scholars think. Also, I learned that I needed to get out of my own way. Once I did, I listen better now or maybe it’s that I am better able to hear His voice. But not everyone really wants to hear that voice.



I just thought of this (again) after I wrote about NOT knowing that my SD was an SD. I should have looked back, just once when we were in detailed conversations … just to catch the psycho grin. I never thought that I had to look with him … that’s how normal he acted. Never once did I ever feel that something was wrong to even consider looking back at him. Now I will remember for the future … no matter who it is (male or female, young or old) I will purposely walk away from them … my back turned … quickly turn to face them again … just to see if they have “that grin”. The grin is the one that Susan Smith showed the world when she pleaded to the world “please, please, please … whoever has my babies …”. That’s the psycho grin. They can’t help but to show that grin … it’s there signature mark … and Susan was ensuring that her grin was in our faces.


Speaking about facing the devil and surviving…I will never forget I was in the office working at my desk. My senior boss was walking out of her office with another manager. They were walking towards me wringing their hands as the cryptically dropped their conversation in my direction. I remember the two of them staring at me, laughing and wringing their hands. (like witches at the boiling pot) then, without warning… a flash of something came whizzing from both of them towards me (like a lightening bolt). I immediately starting praying the Lord’s prayer … the bolt of whatever it was went right through me. I remember thinking at that very moment “funny, there is no substance to EVIL”. They both went from smiling to a stunned look, put their heads down and walked quickly past me. What did I just witness here? I knew I was silently talking with God and telling him “thank you”. A smile an to my mind.


Oh, and another thing … I wanted to walk around that office with a bucket of water … to throw … so I could hear “I’m melting … I’m melting … look what you’ve done to my beautiful wickedness ………. urghhhhhhhhh … pooofffffff”. The end. Sadly, I didn’t. But, I thought about it.

Ox Drover

Dear Benz,

When I speak of JUSTICE, I am NOT speaking of revenge. My interpretation of “Justice” is the natural and legal consequences of illegal and immoral behavior. “Justice” is what you get when you see someone rob your house, call the cops and the police arrest them and they go to jail. You have NOT sought revenge, though the robber may feel that you “got your revenge” it was JUSTICE.

If a person is doing any immoral act, and others find out about it and he is sanctioned in the community, they may lose their job, have public scorn, etc. because of their behavior. The former Governor of New Yorkk is a good exammple. Here was a man who pretended to be against prostitution, secretly going to a prostitute. He got found out. That is JUSTICE, not revenge.

I do not even WANT to hunger or thirst after REVENGE, that in my mind would be me taking the law into my own hands, or planting evidence on them, or going and burning down their house for what they did to me. the Bible tells us “Vengence is mine saith the Lord.” I figure if He says it, He means it, and that vengence is not what I should desire. Sometimes the natural human impulse to do that might pop up in my head, but I control that impulse and do not act on it, or harbor it.

While I realize that interpretation of scripture is a very personal thing, I also believe that sometimes you can “get a new slant” on a well known story or passage in the Bible that you hadn’t seen before. To me the very beauty of the Bible’s stories and parables etc is that there are MULTIPLE lessons in each one. That each time we read them with a FRESH eye and an open mind that the Word can speak to us in so many situations as appropriate for THAT situation….if only we will see what it is trying to tell us….let the wisdom of it come through.

My mother taught me that the Biblical definition of “forgiveness” was that you had to “pretend it didn’t happen” and let the person go on and on repeating the same abusive behavior, or you would go to Hell because you didn’t “forgive” them (even if there was no repentence on their part or change in their behavior).

When I started studying the Bible with a more open mind and free of her “interpretation” I realized that “forgiveness” is indeed a MUST, but it does NOT include that you let them continue their behavior, that you trust them, or believe them. It means that you get the bitterness out of your heart. TRUST is another issue entirely unrelated to “forgiveness.”

It isn’t all that difficult to “forgive” someone if you realize (IMHO) that you don’t ALSO have to TRUST them again, or to “pretend it didn’t happen.” I can clear my heart of the Bitterness that is engendered by the abuse, but to be able to TRUST these people and keep them in my life, that would be impossible for me.

Sometimes, like Wini said, we fantasize about going around with a “bucket of water” and pouring it on them like the wicked witch and melting them, but that I think is more of a stress relief for us rather than genuinely “seeking revenge.”

I totally agree with Aloha about religion as being a “special cloak” or “costume” for the psychopath to hide behind. The rules are pretty simple, easily observable, “forgiveness” is almost guarenteed from others when you “sin” and “repent”—boy can my P-son pretend “repentence.” The Bible says “Judge not” and so many people interpret this to mean that you can’t in any way condemn someone’s behavior, so no matter how many times the psychopath “sins” these people withold their idea of “judgment” and “forgive” (pretend it didn’t happen even though it is STILL happening).

TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT there is almost always some phrase in the Bible that can be used to “justify” just about any behavior, and the psychopaths are so GOOD at the “legalistic” finding of these passages, twisting them, taking them out of context and using them to “justify” their behavior.

My P-son almost knows the Bible by heart, but he doesn’t get the ‘MESSAGE’ that is there—I read a 12 page letter he wrote to a minister friend of ours saying how his family were hypocrits because we would not give him “unconditional love” and write to him, so he could “explain” his part in the plot to kill us. Of course he failed to mention the plot, just that for some reason unknown to him, we had stopped writing to him, and therefore withdrawn our “unconditional love” and he deserved “unconditional love” no matter what he had done, etc. If we were “real Christians” we would “love him unconditionally” ya da, ya da.

Comparing the letters he wrote TO us, and the one To our friend the minister, with the letters he wrote to his partners in crime is an interesting comparison. One filled with “love and light” and “humility” and frequent scripture quotes and the other filled with the F word, bragging, arrogance and venom against the very people he was “sucking up to” in the “sweetness and light” letters.

Yea, religion and scripture make a great Cloak for a psychopath, but most of the time their “feet of clay” stick out from the bottom if we will only LOOK. Jesus tells us to EXAMINE the FRUIT of a tree, if the FRUIT is bad, the tree is bad. (and yea, we’ll all produce a few bad apples in our fruit harvest, but if the majority of the crop is bad, cut the tree down). Peace and love and healing to us all is my prayer.


To OxDrover,
I like your take on the Scriptures. And as I was pondering the mutual dilemma we all have faced, the one common factor I’ve found is that through all this turmoil, we want to reach a higher plane of understanding. It’s pushing us, through our hurts and disillusionments, to strengthen our bond with God through Christ, and Christ said He came to bind up the broken hearted. So if through our brokenness, we find strength, and through that strength, we can pass onto others our findings, all really isn’t lost.

I was thinking of the scripture in Psalms 91:8, where it says “Only with our eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked”. So that tells me that those who choose to do evil, will receive their own reward, unless they turn from their wicked ways. There is no final and complete justice like that of God. I see a lot of people who plan their own demise by the way they live.

I can’t help but think of the ones who really touched my life and me personally. What was it about them that drew me? I think as far as my husband goes, I was in love with love, but learned to love him, to only have that all turned against me. It broke me to the point where I was totally enamored by the man I met. Satan, as the Father of all lies, had me believing this man was of God and he would be my rescuer. And this man has the most melodious voice ever. I was as attracted to his voice as much as anything. I’ve learned since and have heard others voice it, that we have to be on our guard, always. Do we hear the message or do we focus on the messenger? Since my experiences, I’m so much more aware of my surroundings. I walked around for so long encased in my emotional prison and deep in the depths of despair, that I wasn’t aware of happenings. Physically, I was there. Emotionally and mentally, I was somewhere else. I was constantly nursing my hurts and trying to process what it all meant, and what I could do to make it all right. It took others to finally show me, that I wasn’t the only one to blame. And through that enormous let down, I found a newer and deeper understanding of my faith in God. It made me more aware of my obligation to obeying Him and not a man. I had to take responsibility for my actions too, and not do anything that might entice anyone to my way of thinking. I see all of these happenings as an awakening, spiritually as well as physically. I became more aware of myself as a woman and just what my worth really was.

I had been used for sex for so long, that I thought that was my only worth. I was constantly being propositioned and had it not been for my foundation, I probably would have caved, due to wanting to be loved. God has shown me I am loved, by Him and if I never know the love of a man, that is okay, too.

I’ve always tried to weigh what I do from an eternal standpoint. Will it stand the eternal test and if not, then I shouldn’t do it. Since I was acquainted with grief at such a young age, it has made me more aware of wanting to know what eternity really does hold for us. Death is inevitable, and I want to determine if what is happening is of an earthly value or eternal. So to some, that puts me on a much deeper realm and some shy away from me, because I don’t want the shallow way of life. I find I tend to intimidate some due to that, but the funny thing is, when they are hurting, I’m the one they turn to. So it proves to me, that somewhere along the way, we all have to find a deeper meaning to life. I want to do that before I’m on my death bed.

But I digress. Lots of thoughts and questions. Now that I have Google, I find answers! I do a lot of comparisons. And it’s so good to have all these different life stories to put my own life into perspective. Going through it was tough. Now I find I don’t hurt when I talk of it. It’s getting better every day and talking is a panacea, and if more people would communicate their needs, I don’t think we’d have so many problems with which to deal

Ox Drover


I can’t remember where I read it, or if someone posted it on here but the gist of the quote (forgive my inaccurate memory) was that “when you can talk about it and NOT FEEL the pain, you are healed”

Your quote “Now I find I don’thurt when I talk of it”

WOW! GREAT!!!! I think that is where I am getting as well, of course there are still issues that I need to work on to “improve me” but the PAIN when I think about it is not there. I can tell it and not FEEL it, not feel the tightening in my throat, my stomach climbing up to my adams apple, etc.

So if that is the criteria for “healing” I think it is a good one. Untying the emotional strings and responses to the memory seems to be the hardest part, but I think when we are there we about “have it made.” If we use the experience as a clue that we need to work on some issues of our own, to resolve some past abuses or whatever that has not been resolved, great! If we can use it as a spur to our own emotional and spiritual growth, even better! Sometimes it takes a “swift kick” from the Universe to get us off our butts and moving on toward something better than what we had, so I am actually grateful that I was able to survive this, and use it as a motivation for me to change ME…because after all that is all we can do.

I am so grateful to God that my family survived this all alive, that the DIL is OUT of my son C’s life and that he is healing, and that I have a better and closer relationship to a LOVING GOD and am not in terror of the ANGRY vengeful God my mother taught me to fear. I have a spiritual peace now that I have not had before in my life. To me the Bible is filled with WISDOM for our day to day life, a guide book on how to live in a healthy and wise way, and this is totally independent of the “religious” aspect of it. The various Bible “stories” about people’s lives and how they lived them, good or bad, should speak to us in OUR daily lives about how to live a good life and avoid the bad. Good sense 101. Proverbs is a good example of such a book. Philosophy 101, Ecclesiastes, Love101, Song of Solomon; etc.

I also read the sacred texts of other religions, not because I embrace the religious part of it, but because of the wisdom in the writings. I read many writers, ancient and modern, for the wisdom in their writings to help me on a day to day basis to grow and learn.

For so long I focused on controlling the PAIN of the situation, now I am focusing on my own GROWTH emotionally and spiritually. So I have come a long ways from where I came in this journey. I started out “crazy” with pain, frustration, fear, anger etc. and I am getting to a place of peace and security again. It has been a long journey, andI hope the growth will go on and on and on, but the crazy and pain were only temporary.


I think some of what I was going through was likened to grief. We at times, think grief is associated with dying, but that’s not always the case. Grief is a loss. For me I lost a part of myself in this other person. My innocence was lost. I grieved for it for a long time. How could I have not seen? How could I have given all of me and received so little in return? Why couldn’t I have been loved, just because? I would rehash these feelings and try and process these emotions. And through all of that I would read and search, and mainly pray. My prayer was for God to help me accept my lot in life.

I read what you endured and others here. My “happening” wasn’t even comparable, but the end result was the same. The disbelief that I gave my all and ended with nothing. All the tears I cried over the neglect, slights, hurtful words, lack of loyalty. I was silently crying out, don’t you see me? Don’t you see my value? I thought for so long that love begat love. Nothing in my growing up years prepared me for being devalued and discarded. To go together and be treated like I was something precious and thinking it could only get better once we were married, to have that bubble burst in my face, caused me a lot of grief. I grieved for the man I met. How can they dupe us so badly? Was I the only one who ever showed him affection? I guess I’ll never know. I thought because he is still alive, that I needed to keep that grief alive. Stinking thinking. Who wants to grieve all their life? I know some who do. I didn’t want that for me.

God has allowed growth for me. I do choose to believe in Him and He believes in me. I’ve felt it and seen it. In fact it’s easier for me to believe in Him and Christ, who are spirit and was flesh, than to believe what humans want me to believe. I did for a season, now I question. This is a journey and I want to pack just the right amount of what I need to use to get me to my destination. I read where we aren’t human beings on a spiritual journey, but spiritual beings on a human journey. I like that. Kind of makes the emotional happenings a lot less stressful. I went through the emotional highs and lows and can talk about it. The pain isn’t as painful. I don’t cry when I recount. So something is happening. I’m learning about me. I guess I don’t need to know what makes other’s tick and talk. I just need to have my armor on so they can’t do to me what they did the first time around. Good to be informed.


I was thinking your saying what you were told about forgiveness and I,too, couldn’t understand many years ago, why I couldn’t get that fuzzy feeling back again.
I don’t know if my husband would be considered anti-social personality or just how he could be described. I sometimes feel like I’m betraying him just by mentioning his ways and how our marriage was. He can’t see it. I think he chooses not to. He had his own agenda and it didn’t include me. When the truth was finally coming out, he said he was sorry, but he would never elaborate on what he was sorry for and I sometime think he said he was sorry just so the truth wouldn’t be revealed. He wondered if we could start all over. This after more than 25 years of marriage. He couldn’t understand why I just wasn’t like before. I just couldn’t get back that fuzzy feeling. He knew I was lost to him. He said what kind of Christian are you? My Bible says when God forgives, He forgets, just like that. (He snapped his fingers on that) I looked at him and said, “I’m not God”. I’m a human being that was messed with for a long time. And just because I choose to be a Christian, doesn’t give anyone the right to denigrate me and throw me away. What kind of human being was he? But forgiveness is for me. I release them and release the right to cause them harm. Freedom in truth. I’ve found in my walk that a lot of people don’t want to ask for forgiveness. They will say they are sorry, but sometimes I think they are sorry they were caught, not really remorseful. To ask for forgiveness means they are owning their part and they are admitting they have caused pain.

I like God’s words in Psalm 51 that says “the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”. When someone is truly sorry, they will do all they can to make amends. Not just say, I’m sorry and walk away. Or say they are sorry and keep doing the same thing. I’m someone who will show my love by what I do and not just what I say. I thought that’s how it worked. Love in word and deeds. Altruism. How does one teach that to one who thinks they know everything but practice selfishness?



I know well the difference between justice and revenge, as I think most probably do from having had to sort through all kinds of emotions after our common experience of deep hurt and betrayal. And I agree with what I think you said, it’s certain as history shows, justice isn’t always served here on earth. Even in only my life time I’ve seen the day of a hand shake deal disappear along with the t.v. fantasy of life at Mayberry RFD. So if you choose to seek justice, and there’s nothing wrong with that, not vengeance but justice, you’ve just got to be strong and realistic, understanding you will probably be fighting an uphill battle with the cards stacked against you. The only thing I’d add is as for those people you think will never believe you and that’s many times so true, but to that I’d say, so what, as long as you’re up to it and if in the end it’s for a good purpose coming from your heart. Justice, not revenge, is a good thing when you can achieve it. You never know what can be accomplished, just as you, OxD, found in all the dealings with your family.

But I’d like to comment on another avenue of justice, not in society but personally, justice in our own relationships. As you mentioned your mother’s misplaced take on forgiveness, I’ve found that is a common phenomena of yester year, bequeathed to us from a former generation, stoicism and putting on a “nice” public face so as not to create waves or tarnish that Mayberry fantasy. But it taught us how to sweep sin under the rug, keep a stiff upper lip, stand by our man, love conquers all, and it opened the door to abuse. We were given that universal sense of Mayberry, expecting justice and goodness to prevail, and we took it into our relationships and instead we got handed character assignation in return for our dedication (among plenty of other not so pleasant things). That’s not God’s plan. And that takes me to the greater story behind King David and points to what we are talking about here.

David was the epitome of the term, saint and sinner. He was assured of his place in heaven because he always kept his eyes on God, was always quick to seek repentance. But according to a trusted Christian writer, Max Lucado, David died a troubled and lonely man. Family hadn’t been a priority (God gives us our priority list), and he had lead a difficult life resulting in troubled children and no beloved wife tending to him on his deathbed.

David made bad choices,yes, a lifetime of them and because of that he experienced both great joy but also much great sorrow. Who does that remind us of–yes, possibly some of us. But God wants more for us than salvation just as He did with David, he wants us to have a joyous and fruitful life, but because of David’s choices he didn’t receive all that God offers. Sometimes we get a wake up call like we all have here. Also like David, we will have many giants to slay in this life time, family, career, illness, finances, etc.

So we are tasked to put on the full armor of God. And yes we are also tasked to examine the fruit, and examine or search the scriptures. An easy task, obviously I think not, it wasn’t for David either, along with all of us on here. So we have to change past thinking and our methods of relating, even statistics show we are likely to repeat past behavior. Looking for those clay feet requires solid judgment and good choices. We will always see signs because no one is perfect, but we must learn a different set of guidelines because the old ones didn’t work. And as we proceed with our eyes wide open to the changes we must make in ourselves, I think we must still move forward from that same good place of Christian love and acceptance in our hearts but now with a vigilant awareness and a changed sense of justice of what we will accept for ourselves, understanding that we are able to change no one else.

According to God’s word, love and forgiveness does not sweep sin under the rug, whether it’s from your child, spouse, boyfriend, parent, friend, boss, pastor, or stranger. Instead you must deal with sin in justice and mercy.

I’ll mention blasphemy, our cloaked saints we on here have seen, the unpardonable sin, the deliberate refusal to acknowledge God’s power in Christ. Those who reject all faith cannot be forgiven, but not because that sin is any greater than any other. It’s because they will NEVER ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. That closes the door to the Holy Spirit by which you are lead to repentance and restoration. Repentance is acknowledging sin and turning away from it, changing, intending not to repeat. Sounds just like some we know.

Dealing with sin in justice and mercy, not sweeping it under the rug, is not just a good idea, it’s God’s directive in loving your neighbor as yourself. You must love yourself in uncovering your own sin, just don’t allow less from anyone else in your life. As OxD said, sometimes you’ve just got to cut down the tree.

Ox Drover

Dear Benz,

Thank you so muc for the above post. It is in my opinon, right on!

During the time I was living away from home, literally hiding for my own safety, I read and reread the story of King David hiding from King Saul and how he left Saul’s fate in God’s hands, not taking it into his own hands when he had the opportunity.

I saw so much of my own situation in those stories, and they comforted me very much. Later, reading about DAvid’s son Absalom and how David ENABLED his psychopathic son to lead the people astray and declare war on DAvid—even then, DAvid was more concerned for his SON than he was for his own army and the people who remained loyal to him.

Yes, DAvid was a flawed man, but he was always quick to repent and change his ways. He didn’t acheive the kind of life he could have had if he had not sinned like he did, and he suffered the consequences of those sins of arrogance etc. even though he did repent and gained God’s forgiveness. The consequences were still there.

No matter how much we regret our own faults, we still bear the consequences even if we repent and change our own behavior. Looking back at the things in my life that I have done wrong–knowingly or unknowingly–I still have to face the consequences of those actions though I long ago repented of those faults and have tried to change my ways.

I do try to follow David’s example though, and when my “sins” are pointed out to me, I try to correct them with the same willingness that King DAvid had and the same attitude. What is so amazing and so good about the story of King David is that he is SHOWN as a less-than-perfect person, and still was a “man after God’s own heart” because of his own willingness to acknowledge his own faults. I think that is a wonderful lesson in there for us all.

The psychopaths do NOT acknowledge their “faults” but place the blame for anything negative that happens to them on to others. They don’t repent, they don’t respond to punishment, but maintain their arrogance and sense of entitlement, no matter what they do, or how horrible it is.

Once in a while, I have found that “justice” does prevail here in this world, but sometimes it isn’t easily found and that is when I must be willing to have FAITH that justice WILL come, but it isn’t for me to know when or how.

Thank you for a wonderful post, I appreciate it very much. More than you may ever know. (((hugs))))


If you’ve ever watched the show “Snapped” and see what a lot of others go through, only to take justice in their own hands, and end up being convicted of murder, makes me glad that I allowed God to mete out His justice. I chose to wait before Him because I knew He was going to do something, but didn’t know what. My husband can no longer speak to me or our daughter like he used to. My daughter and I have processed the past, with God’s help, and have forgiven him. She moved on and I’m in the process. I never once hated him for what he did, but I did have resentment. I took that to God, too, to process. But if one doesn’t believe in God and His words and take them literally, they will seek vengeance. If God does it, it is taken care of for all time. And if those who seek to do us harm, don’t seek forgiveness from God, that is for them to answer and not us.

I think, too, it’s all about mercy. God says if we don’t show mercy, how can we expect mercy when we need it. Then again, if one doesn’t take God’s words literally, they don’t understand the human aspects of the emotions, and how anger turns to hate, hate turns to rage, rage turns to murder. The anger needs to be dealt with and find the source of that anger. God gave me the ability to back away. Through that, my husband could no longer hurt me. I’ve been hurt by the memories and they will play in my head at times, but I’ve learned to capture those thoughts and memories and not let them consume me. Our minds can be our worst enemies. But I’m glad I wasn’t one who snapped. I chose to let go and let God. That makes His justice so much sweeter and complete. And through those who write here, I put my own life into perspective and have learned what to look for and how to back away. My mind is constantly processing and I’m listening, waiting for those red flags.


I am in a huge awakening and it’s mind blowing. I can see my own recovery. I can see where what used to put me into bed depressed is now giving me strength. I see what I used to think I deserved or I was too confused to see that it was really happening, is actually happening and it is not getting through to me. My x husband sees me growing geting better and he is going crazy. Getting meaner..I can’t say I am not afraid for my children…I am and I am watching for any signs of harm mental and physical. He sees the beauty in me getting away and he’s trying to cut me at the knees and I am not going to let that happen. I don’t know how God works, I am not supposed to know I am only asked to have faith. ANd I do. ANd God’s justice will prevail.

Ox Drover

CLANK, CLANK, CLANK–that’s the sound of your chains falling loose Iradessa! You are becoming free of the mind-chains of P-slavery.

Be careful though, that you don’t provoke him to violence with your freedom! They are so VENGEFUL when they see that we have broken free, that we are no longer bound by the chains of their lies. Because I declared my freedom, my P-son decided to have me KILLED.

So though you are FREE, NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THEM, or underestimate the EVIL that is in them, or their capacity to DO EVIL. While God has given us Freedom, Satan is not yet bound on this earth, and can still wound us—and so can his anti-angels, the psychopaths—BE CAREFUL! (((hugs))))


I have that 6th sense. He planned to have you killed — were you able to prove it? I wouldn’t put it past him. I won’t let my gaurd down. I won’t fl;aunt ther freedom. My plan was to speak to him as little as possible. Give him no information. He has his allie his new wife and they wanted to pretend to be friends. His actual words were I should be able to beat the shit out of you and you should still be my friend in public. My jaw dropped. ANd he is livid that I won’t talk to them.

Tell me everything I need to know to stay safe.


A note on OxDrover’s first comment on this article, “Sometimes I think the psychopaths “feed” the energy of our pain. The more pain for us, the more joy for them.”

Once my ex finally let her mask drop, she would visit with her sister (another s/p-path) and they would openly laugh share and talk about the pleasure they derived from hurting innocent and unsuspecting people who had the misfortune of coming into contact with either of these two. Saying they had no boundaries in the evil these adult women did for no gain other than fun is trite at best. Not only did they have no boundaries, they understood boundaries, good and evil, right and wrong, and would look for opportunities to turn those opposites on their head to make evil look good and vice versa. The more helpless, innocent or incapacitated the victim more they were uplifted and ecstatic.

They did this in front of me, knowing that I was on the hook with a child by my ex. They were predatory in all acts and deeds. How could I run without leaving my child to an admittedly abusive ex wife and her family. It was the rubbing of salt in my wounds.

Ox Drover

Dear Patriotdad,

My heart goes out to ALL the parents of children by these people, you are chained to the Psychopath by your love and duty to your children. It to me is the most painful kind of enslavement one could even imagine. I pray for all such parents, but your bravery and self sacrifice are the marks of a REAL HUMAN BEING, and I applaud you heartily!

Yes, they DO enjoy the pain they cause, and glory in their successes. When I read the letters my P-son wrote to his Trojan Horse-P co-conspiritors it was so apparent at the glee he got in making life miserable for me even before they had accomplished their ultimate purpose which was my death!

Iradessa, as close to NO contact as you can get is best, absolute NO contact is the ideal, I am not sure what your situation is (have a child with him? or whatever) but if it is possible to TOTALLY avoid any contact this is the best way.

His statement IS CHILLING, for sure.

I would LOVE to write my P-son and TELL him ‘”I AM FREE OF YOU” BUT–it would only provoke him to renewed efforts to hurt me, ditto the Trojan Horse-P—I would just LOVE to tell him that I finally got title to the vehicle he stole the money by fraud from my mother to purchase—and that his X-GF, my X-DIL used the power of attorney he gave her to clean out his bank account and close it–which contained only money he and she had stolen from my mother–and that he is BROKE. I would LOVE to tell him that I am the one that got his PAROLE CANCELED, oh HOW I WOULD LOVE TO GLOAT–but there is no point, it would only PROVOKE him to more VENGENCE and WRATH—-so I have to “gloat” on these VICTORIES only here on this blog where it is SAFE to do so, and where I won’t provoke more violence on their part.

BUT, I DO KNOW, from the letters my P-son has written to everyone who knows us, and to my mother, that NO CONTACT–which means NO INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON—is roastiing him over a spit, turning him like a piece of meat over the fire, and he is FEELING THE HEAT, it is so FRUSTRATING to him to not get any answers to his letter, his pity letters, his anger letters, his guilt letters, his blame letters, his repentence letters—THEY ALL GO UNANSWERED AND HE HAS NO INFORMATION. It is driving him bat chit! with frustration!!!!

Plus, his source of money, which is status and priviledge in prison is cut OFF.

All ****ALL****information we give them is like giving them ammunition to shoot back at us. I advise everyone who has even limited contact to keep your “cards close to your chest.”


I wish I could tell you “everything you need to know to be safe”—it depends on the situation, the particular P, where you live, a lot of things. The best advice I can give you is to ALWAYS BE CAUTIOUS—don’t trust anything they say, keep your doors locked, never (if possible) be ALONE with him even for a second. Always have a WITNESS present when you must make contact of any kind. Keep all e mails or any documents he sends you, (IN A SAFE PLACE) and NEVER NEVER UNDERESTIMATE HOW EVILL HE CAN BE.

The tiny micro-video cameras are coming down n price, if possible have them installed in your home and around the outside of your house, so that if he comes around you have proof.

JUST BE CAREFUL. and DON’T PROVOKE him verbally no matter how much you want to “tell him off.” I told my son “off” and it provoked him horribly. If you have money that would go to your minor child after your death, make sure that money will NOT be controlled by the psychopath so that it can go to the CHILD not the Psychopath. I suggest that you consult an attorney for that.

Keep your faith in God, but use good sense as well “God helps those who also help themselves.” (((hugs)) to you both.

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