By | June 9, 2008 140 Comments

Sociopaths violate all human values

As part of my day job—writing scripts for web-based training programs—I came across some information developed by the Institute for Global Ethics. Surveys conducted worldwide have consistently identified a group of values that people of all cultures and nationalities recognize as essential. These universal values are:

  • Honesty
  • Responsibility
  • Respect
  • Fairness
  • Compassion

Sociopaths violate all of them.

Perhaps that’s why those of us who are ethical, who care about others, who want to live cooperatively among our neighbors, feel so shaken after a collision with a sociopath. These predators take the qualities that people all over the world consider essential to the social contract and stomp on them, run them through a meat grinder and then pulverize them.

But they don’t tell us what they’re going to do. (Or if they do, we think they can’t possibly be serious.) Instead, they mouth eloquent words about their loyalty, trustworthiness and caretaking. We believe the words. Eventually, however, we discover that the words are empty, and their behavior reveals their true attitude: To them, the universal values of humanity mean nothing.

Then we, trying to extricate ourselves from the sociopathic relationship, lose our footing. We suspect that no one really cares about honesty, responsibility, respect, fairness and compassion. We were the only chumps who took these qualities seriously.

The good news is that we were right in the first place—most people in the world do respect the universal values. As we heal from our traumatic experiences, we’ learn how to differentiate those who do from the sociopaths who don’t.

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Yeah – the list goes on and on.

These guys ( and gals) ….. I’d say they split personalities BUT I deep down at my gut-level believe they KNOW and CHOOSE to be evil.

I think that sig line is a joke, my psycho was the BIGGEST hypocrite around. But so few people see it.

Process this:

The sociopath that lied to me about his HIV status, and put me at risk by exposing me, has this as his signature block (and was added after the fact):

“Respect for self, respect for others, and responsibility for your actions.”

How warped is that!?


That’s just so wrong with something so dangerous as as HIV.

Mine displayed a picture of himself on the net sitting on his Harley with a pompous caption, “The motorcycle I sit on tells the world where I stand” but what he didn’t tell was that the new seat he was sitting on was mine he refused to return, I’d also “loaned” him $350 for putting a new chip in the motor that he didn’t repay, and a collection agency was looking to repo the bike for non-payment of a $9,000 note against it.

I got off cheap.


Donna, Thanks for the insight into that study of human values. Nothing that one would see on the evening news for sure.

“instead they mouth eloquant words” precisely!

With hindsight I realize that my P was the classic “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE” He didn;t just seem decent – he portrayed himself and I accepted as fact that he was especially decent, more than better than etc. A family man extraordinaire etc.

Maybe this is a good clue for the futre P detector. Extra caring, attentive, generous etc. RED FLAG No warts, perfect, on time patient excellent listener RED FLAG.

One big one I chose to ignore was that mine did not have any friends. Admireres, fans, people in awe, wannabees, yes, but no real close friends. I should have paid careful attention.

As much as I am making progress in the healing it is still so galling that he is RIGHTEOUS. That there is NO remorse of the ruin he has made of my life, and he can now blame me for the ruin that is his.

Too bad we don’t have an empty continent to ship these folk to so the rest of us could live in peace and harmony.




I so get that! That stupid signature. Chances are this was a line he stole from you when you were confronting himselv about his evil deed. You didn’t say it was but I recognize this move so much.

Bad Man did crap like that all the time. His most outrageous acts later became his banners self righteousness…

Trying to figure out how he worked these kinds of things out in his mind kept me awake for so many nights.

Thanks Donna for sharing this article… it hit a nerve with me.


^eyeswideshut, the PSN island. dare to dream!

i think an S definitely appears to be more good to be true than an N. but for me the N was not romantic. i would like to talk about him a bit more but i don’t want to change the thread subject to me.

they either don’t care about or don’t understand the meaning of those values. and i think an equally important thing they don’t care about are their responsibilities. like if you have a kid, you should care for it. or just little things like paying rent or chipping in. it is always a short-cut for them.


Dear eyeswideshut. I think that what you say about the perfectionist values the people with PDisorders portray at the beginning makes a good P detector. They seem so ‘perfect’ at the beginning but of course this is the illusion they use to draw us in.

My exN was reliable, on time, a good listener, trustworthy, loyal, a protector, attentive and decent was the value he most ‘sold’ to me. He pretended to be a cut above the rest – an alpha male persona which he so heavily played on. He turned out to be the opposite of these values. ANY act of betrayal or infidelity violates all of these perceived qualities and if we were originally ‘sold’ on these qualities, then major violation takes place. At the end I called him a deceitful coward – he was the fraud.


Good morning,
I’m having a downer this morning. I can’t quit thinking of how frustrated I feel over the events in my life that brought me to this place. I think the part that gets me the most, is the denial. I could handle the happening. But when confronted with truth, to be met with denial, has to be the most insidious part of the whole relationship. My husband and I could have kept on going, had he not denied his part. I’ve heard “I’m sorry”, but never, “will you forgive me?” I think to ask for forgiveness is owning part of the problem. How can they do what they do and just deny it?

That’s been on my mind so heavily the last while. Knowing there are so many more just like that eases the discomfort some, but I never thought I would be on the receiving end. Nothing prepared me for it. I never knew people could be so conniving and deceitful, and yet use the word love to extract sex and money, but not mean any of it.

I’ve been so dumb and naive about the sexual aspect of a relationship too. I understand one night stands. They are just looking for a quick thrill. But how can one go through all the motions of a marriage ceremony, having children, having sex through out the whole marriage, and have it not mean anything? I can’t make myself understand the whole concept of it. I don’t think like that and can’t put myself into their head to understand why. Then when asked, they deny.

I had written my husband this big long letter recounting our life and what it meant to me and some things he had done that undermined what he said. His only response was, “I don’t know where you came up with that stuff. You must have convinced yourself”. Now if that isn’t frustrating, I don’t know what is. But you all know. I can’t share this with anyone, other than my children. They have affirmed it, but don’t want to confront their dad. So I have no one to go to bat for me to try and shake him up a bit. There has to be a lot of pride that stands in the way of admitting they just might be at fault. So I guess we’ll all go to our graves still shaking our heads and wondering why. I can’t understand how they can go through life without a conscience and remorse.

I even wrote to a pastor who preached a sermon on “Dead Men Walking”. I thought since he preached it he had a first person account. The only response I got from him was, I’ll pray for your situation. I do that. I wanted some kind of self help I could administer. This is the kind of stuff that drives me to find comfort food. I need to figure out a way to re-channel that energy and lose weight. Then strut my stuff and say eat your hearts out boys. You had your chance.

With all the horrible happenings all over the world, this seems trite but it’s been my life. I understand and don’t want to take life and love for granted. I just don’t know where any of them are coming from. I just want to make sense of it all and find purpose.

oh, yes, the indidioud denial. I can relate. I have to admit, his denial after the truth was exposed was the most baffling. the actual act of exposing me was in itself bad, and theoretically the worst of his actions……but his denial was the biggest mind f*@ck.


For sure. I can respect someone who says I use to do whatever, but I don’t anymore. That is acknowledging and accepting. But to be confronted with truth and to deny has to be the worst part of the whole relationship. It says they are in another realm. We really weren’t on the same page all along. It makes the whole relationship a joke. The light has gone out and the joy has faded. Now we just walk along feeling nothing together. What’s the point?


He preached morality to me. Yet I was the only one following the principles. I was so confused. I have lied before, been lied to but I don’t ever remember being sandbagged like this…. I was depressed and thought I had to have done something, there is got to be something I am missing on how to live this life. I am no longer in that state of mind. I was so angry I wanted to punish, get even, but I won’t let him turn me into a monster. I have to have faith in God that he will take care of him the way he sees fit. God’s justice is perfect and he doesn’t need my help.


I pray every day that my children never have to taste the bitterness of defeat of this kind. That they can continue building on their hopes and dreams. I sometimes feel that I have too much conscience if that’s possible. Like I really don’t have a choice because I know the pain that I’ve felt and don’t want to inflict that. I sense too, the need to answer to God and to take His words literally, and thought everyone else who proclaimed Him did the same. So I feel like I’m trapped with wanting to do what I want, but I have this sense of responsibility of not throwing away someone who just doesn’t get it, and maybe if I try a different approach, the light will finally dawn. I can’t grasp why they just can’t feel what everyone else does. How can one go all through their life and feel no remorse for hurting so many people? Am I just entirely too sensitive? I sometimes begin to wonder if I really do know who I am. And here I had the audacity to think that I was totally healed of all of this. As I said earlier, it’s like the dead come back to life and die again, and I have to start the grieving process all over. How does one get it to stop? Will I become a sociopath too, if I stay around them too long? Will I lose all sense of reasoning? My thoughts drive me insane!! How does one stop the thinking process? Not just one thought but lots. Not just ruminating on one certain aspect, but the whole scope.


apt/mgr, everything you wrote hits home with me. I said to this man whom I was married to for 13 years, “was this entire marriage a joke to you?” “No, of course not”, he said. But, there can be no other way. It truly was a joke to him – never meant a thing. He says, “of course I feel remorse”, without one tiny bit of feeling behind it.

To apologize to his children (which he did only because a therapist told him he needed to), he sat them down and pulled out a typed up sheet and read from it. He couldn’t remember what he had to apologize for?! And, after he was done, he just carried on as though everything was fine now with them.

He completely believes his own lies. I made note of all the terrible things he said to me when he left, and when I brought them up weeks later, he completely denied saying any of it. It made me feel crazy, and looking back he made me feel crazy the entire relationship.

The universal values of honesty, responsibility, respect, fairness and compassion do not mean anything to my ex-S. He certainly expects these and demands these values from others, but he is exempt. I told him a few weeks ago that it is a relief for me that all those years I thought there was something not quite right with him, that I was right.

He somehow had me believing things about myself and life that simply were not true. He is an executive, who is way overpaid and has manipulated his way up the ladder. He has said, “someone’s going to make this much money, it might as well be me”. His thinking is, he is entitled simply because he is, not because he does a good job or is a hard worker, but simply because it might as well be him instead of someone else.

Before I met him, he was an auditor traveling around the country. I questioned him as to how he could handle such a stressful, detail-oriented job since he doesn’t like to work that much. His response: “I used to just make up numbers if it got too late and I wanted to go home. I didn’t care.” Let’s hope the person doing our taxes is not a sociopath!

apt/mgr, you asked what’s the point? I think the point is that we learn as much as we can from this traumatic experience we’ve been through. I, too, have been naive and trusting all my life. I was crushed like a bug. I am no longer naive, I trust only when I really feel it is warranted and I realize that evil (disguised as good) really does exist in the world. You said your husband said “I don’t know where you came up with that stuff. You must have convinced yourself.” My ex has said almost the exact same thing. This is crazy-making talk. We realize what it is now. We know we are not the crazy ones. We are the ones that live by the “universal values”, and they are not. This fact has to make us feel at least a little comfort.

But, it is hard. The whole experience can be so debilitating. I do have moments now of pure joy come over me where I am so grateful I no longer have this man in my life. But, at the same time, I also have those intensely low moments of ‘my God, how could he have done this’.

Keep looking forward and moving on. It takes a long time for our brains to process the betrayal, and we have to be patient with ourselves. We have been abused, and at the end of the day we will come out stronger, wiser, and ultimately happier. I have to believe that.


One more thing, my ex-S also preached morality to me. He would tell me what a loser his brother was for cheating on his wife, how monogamy was so important to him, how his boss had been cheating on his poor wife for years, how people at work would make inappropriate sexual comments about women and it made him uncomfortable. It all sounded so believable, and it was all a complete lie. He had me convinced I was married to the “family man extraordinaire”, also, as eyeswideshut said. It was all a joke.

apt/mgr, I have tried over and over and over again to try to make him see the light, to try to get him to face reality, all to no avail. The only one we can control is ourselves. We have to take care of ourselves. He is so far out of touch with reality that he will most likely never see things as they are. In his case, he keeps this thick, protective steel wall around him – it protects him from abandonment, and all the other horrible things that happened to him as a child. I can no longer care. It is not my job to make him become a kind, caring human being. It’s in God’s hands now. My job is done.


My sociopath presented himself as being righteous as well. He was always talking about family values, but he would think nothing of using his family as an excuse for being with the other woman. I got to the point that I suspected that every time “he was having the grandchildren over” that was code for I have female company and don’t disturb me.

My sociopath expected honesty and respect from others, but lied constantly about his own activities. I think that they get to a point where they start believing their own lies. I think that the majority of the reasons that he gave me for borrowing money were either fabrications or outright lies. Sometimes I can’t believe how gullible I was.


It keeps astounding me that so many hear the same words. Couldn’t they at least come up with something more original? My husband never cheated, but due to his blatant disregard for me and my feelings, I came “this” close to falling. I was so desperate for someone to validate my worth as a woman. That was the moment when my eyes were opened to what I should have had and didn’t.

When I met this man who wants us to be friends, I truly thought he was God’s answer for my husband to finally step up to the plate. I went home and told my family how this man I met, who was my insurance agent,and wanted to hug me when he left. I was so naive, but somehow knew he was coming on to me, but it was nice. I didn’t fall but told my husband. I wanted to hear him say, “you tell him to stay away from you”. I got no response. I took a picture home to show him, thinking finally he would have a spark of jealousy. He looked at this picture and said,” boy,he’s really a good looking man”. I almost puked. He wasn’t supposed to say that. By this time, I knew there had to be something radically wrong with him. We had been married 25 years at this point. My spirit was so close to being broken, that I felt all hope for living was gone.

But shortly after the picture, I developed a tumor in my back. I went through my own physical hell. My husband was so nice to me. I actually thanked God for it, if it would get him to see that I had worth. So for approximately 6 months, I felt like a wife. He was very solicitous at this time and was nice to our youngest. He quit screaming at her and me. He was actually nice. I went through surgery for removal of the tumor, two months later had a D&C, two months later had a hysterectomy. All that time I figured we had finally arrived. Two months after I healed, he almost immediately reverted back to his old way and nothing had changed. I gave up at this point. I figured there was nothing left for me and this man I met really was my reward.

Thus began another episode in my life that I wish I could take back. Never in all my days, could I have ever imagined what this man did to me, too. When he realized that I was attracted to him, he did everything you could think of to wear me down. It was bad enough all the years with my husband seeking attention and hating his life with me, but this man, who is very seductive, and very masculine, just messed with my emotions. He teased me with sex, but nothing happened, because he knew I had the morals. I didn’t want to lose my children’s respect and just didn’t want some cheap affair. I was too stupid to realize that if he wasn’t get sex from me he was getting it elsewhere. He’s a womanizer but I knew nothing about all that. He sure took me for a ride. I was a challenge and nothing more. He wanted to win.

Even as I write about it, I can feel those feelings of angst and helplessness at the hands of someone, first my husband, then this friend. I prayed for truth in my life for so long. God gave me the truth I craved, and it wasn’t what I thought, and now I don’t know what to do with what I got. I can’t go back, as my husband said I ruined him financially and turned the kids against him, and I can’t go forward because of a few legalities. So I’m trapped right now, and it keeps me bound. The men in question moved on to do what they wanted, but made no provisions for me. So I was left to figure it out. I know it could be worse. But it shouldn’t have been this. It has to be more that Mars vs Venus. How could they not feel something?


I never thought this would apply to me, but many have suggested that my husband was jealous of me. I couldn’t understand why, but maybe it’s because I can feel very deeply and he can’t. I’m to the place where I don’t even want to ask, because I probably wouldn’t get a straight answer. My husband didn’t outright lie, but I think he did through omission. The man who wants me to be friends, hesitates before he answers, like he has to think of an answer without committing himself to anything. He, too, would talk about values, morals, integrity, but manipulated me to get money and I find out that any woman will do for what he has in mind. Where, oh where, did I go in all this? I was so lost in their maze of thinking and the fantasy world they call life. I never knew what part I was to play. As I said, no one gave me my script and I ad libbed and was always on the wrong page. I just need to figure out how to write a suitable ending.


almost_free and apt/mgr,

My relationship was orginally and jointly and verbally designed around biblical scripture with a man who had committed to memory most all important passages in the Bible. How could I not trust him, how could he not know the level of my commitment? It was what helped get me in, keep me in, and then got me out. I am a better person for it, everything happens for a reason.

I was sitting in church listening to a sermon based on Ephesians Chapter 6. Specifically in verse 12, as I sat there I realized I was battling something out of my league and it was then I turned him over to God. My faith needed clarification that I’d asked for, and I received my answer. Religion, in the hands of man, does not always deliver truth or enough truth. Religious people do not always have God’s love in their heart.

Helping to further define my spiritual role, I found (possibly gleaned from this site) more clarification of true (unconditional) love and how we are directed to deal with it. The link is,, entitled the blind eye of love.

Hard to imagine anyone can be so vacant, even with knowledge, but it’s true. It is never easy to accept that someone you care for is choosing the wrong path, but I hope this might help you as it did me. I did my best, as I’ll bet most here did. You can be proud of that knowing you’ve stored treasures, awaiting you in heaven. Godspeed!



I think spiritual blindness has to be very frustrating. I could never understand why my husband would point out faults of others, (me) but couldn’t see what he was doing. At that point in our marriage, I was afraid of him and didn’t want to provoke his wrath, and just prayed that God would somehow open his eyes to truth. So I think a lot of what we have to deal with is one spirit fighting another. Galatians 5 talks of the flesh vs the spirit. Those I’m around are caught up in satisfying the flesh, they forget the spirit. It’s like they just don’t want to go there, because then they will have to take responsibility for their actions. I went through the fire and feel more refined than before so all really isn’t lost. It’s still just frustrating.

Ox Drover

DEar Apt/Mgr

That almost “compulsive need” in us to get them to admit their lack of a moral compas is soooooo frustrating. I wanted so much for my son to SEE what he had done to himself by HIS behavior (put him self in prison for a “life” sentence, ruined any chance for him to have a good life on the outside if he ever got outside, with life-time parole, no friends left that didn’t meet him in prison, no chance for a normal family life, etc etc) but all of his “repentence” all of his “wisdom” was FAKE, there is NO WAY HE COULD GET IT—it was all someone else’s fault. It was MY fault, because I turned him into the cops when he was 17 for robberty. I was “mean and unfair” to him when he was living at home, he killed the girl because SHE DESERVED IT for turning him in to the cops for the crimes THEY had committed. On and ON and ON–his life was the result of OTHER’S bad acts, not his. He was in his own mind “moral” and “upright” Rules didn’t apply to HIM. He was SPECIAL. I OWED him an inheritence of money and things I had worked for, because I gave birth to him. I had NO right to cut him out of my will or to stop making his life in prison as “nice as possible” and I had NO right to NOT fight for his parole and NO right not to take him in when (if) he got out and so on.

The only joy he has given me since about age 15 is the FANTASY that he was repentent. Fantasy is not a moral compas. IT IS A DELUSION on my part, and I am no longer tricked, conned or deluded about him. HE IS tricked, deluded, and conned by HIMSELF that I owe him anything. His problem, not mine.

The psychopath DEMANDS that you have a moral compas and live by it, and DEMANDS that you do NOT expect the same from them. NOPE, “ain’t gonna fly”—or as we say down here in the South, “that dog won’t hunt.” Frankly, I’m not going to feed the dog any more! It can make its own way in the world without my “help” (read: Enabling). I’ll get my own closure, I HAVE MY OWN CLOSURE. That is all I will EVER get, and it is all I NEED. I just didn’t see for a long time that it was ALL I needed. Now I have it. I was only frustrating myself thinking I needed him to admit his problems, or my mother to admit her problems (enabling) but I CAN VALIDATE IT MYSELF. I don’t NEED THEM to validate it. THAT was so SOOOOOO empowering to finally GET IT myself. ((hugs)))) to you


The sociopath mimics our values and needs. Mine slipped into my life when I was having problems and doubts in my marriage. He offered advice and sympathy.

He eventually started having financial issues and I was always kind enough to help him out. I fell right into his trap both emotionally and financially. I believed all his stories and listened to all his problems.

I don’t think that the sociopath can look at their own lives with any sort of conscience. They can’t or won’t see that they are ruining the lives of innocent people who only were looking for a relationship. We all believed that we were in a relationship with a one of a kind person who truly understood us. Little did we know that this relationship was anything but stable. It was all deception. There were no true feelings and definitely no possibility for a future.

Ox Drover


You are so right “the sociopath mimics our values and needs.”

Even my mother admitted that the letters he wrote to HER which were filled with “but Grandma what would JESUS do?” and the letters he wrote to the Trojan Horse Psychopath who was “in on the plot” were so different that it sounded like TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE wrote them. The ones to my mother were like they were written (on a shallow level at least) by a person who was very kind, caring, loving, philosophical and religious, and the others sounded like they were written by a bragging, grandiose foul-mouthed teenager without any concept of a moral compass.

“Which Twin has the Toni?” (that’s an old TV commercial line about a home permanent wave) Which one of these letters is the more “honest” one? Which set of these letters shows that my Psychopathic son is a WONDERFUL MIMIC, and KNOWS WHAT my mother wants to hear?

They CAN pretend to be anything that WE want them to be, at least for a while. They can MASK themselves with the FACE we want to see, that we will project upon their countenance because it is what we want.

To see the UNMASKED psychopath (which we do from time to time), it is like we are looking at the face of SATAN when they look at us with the RAGE inside them spilling out their eyes, and flowing from their unbridled tongues.


Dear OxDrover,
As bad as things turned out for me, I can’t begin to imagine what you must feel to have to walk away from your son and all you endured. I have a friend whose niece left home on bad terms and her mother is going through a very bad time. Far worse than the empty nest syndrome. I went through that and wanted to die, and could only sympathize with you and others who lose their children to the world.

When I began my life’s journey many years ago, I never had any idea there would be so much turmoil in relationships. I didn’t know how one could go from being loved to being thrown away. When my husband and I were going together, he wanted us to be together all the time. After we got married, he’d hardly ever come to bed. It became such a miserable time that I dreaded having to live my whole life in such a fashion. If I could repeat, I would surely take a stand. But here I am, with all these memories and working on my closure too. I have that emotional closure and have distanced myself partly. I won’t put myself at their disposal. That’s the only way for me to survive. I’m tired of crying out of frustration. I sometimes feel like this is some kind of punishment but am helpless to do anything more than I am about it. I quit making any kind of plans and am just letting life take me where it will. There’s too many variables anymore and I won’t make anything definite. Hugs to you too. ~^..^~


While the relationship was going on I had no idea it was all a lie. I truely believed he was a man with values. Then it started getting strange. I would overhear him lying to his friends about the most mundane things. I would say “why did you lie about that, it isn’t that big of a deal?” The lie was completely pointless. Somehow I convinced myself that he didn’t lie to me about things (hmpf, I am way to “special” for that).

It continued to get stranger when I started to see his contradictory statements. I even told my mother that I could not listen to what he said anymore, I had to watch his actions. Because what he said and what he was doing, no longer matched. It was so confusing.

Then the day finally came, the climax of strange, where he told me he had feelings for another women far away. He followed that statement with “that was the most honest thing I have ever said”. It was my wakeup point, because I understood that it was all a lie.

I am confused at his one point “honesty” because it was at a time when that statement couldn’t have been anymore hurtful. I was 6 months pregnant. Sometimes we “normal” people will lie to protect peoples feelings and to do what we think is right. But in this case the “truth” was revealed at my most vulnerable. If it was even the truth, who knows.

Still, none of it matched his actions and it was all contradictory. I have read that sociopaths have contradictory statements because they are living in so many lies. I have also read that the contradictory statements have something to do with the left and the right side of the brain not communicating properly.

His brain obviously doesn’t work right. I am to blame that I did not see it sooner. To my defense I was naive, and I didn’t even know what a sociopath was or that someone could have a brain disorder which stopped their emotional growth. Now that I understand sociopaths, I realize that he was not just a “calm guy” that said really mean things sometimes but was mostly a romantic. His brain waves are really only functioning slightly above sleeping. It really explains a lot.

I feel bad for him in a way. But that sympathy does not overide the sympathy, love and compassion that I feel for myself and my baby. It is such a confusing disorder for my emotions. I hate him, I feel sorry for him for his brain, and I feel nothing for him, all at the same time.


“To see the UNMASKED psychopath (which we do from time to time), it is like we are looking at the face of SATAN when they look at us with the RAGE inside them spilling out their eyes, and flowing from their unbridled tongues.”

Well put OxDrover


Well on that last part – I know my ex-N definitely caused grief to others – my parents, his own mother, his brother, many of our friends and some of his colleagues. A long list indeed.

apt/mgr – yes, on the idea that he was jealous of you – i think that’s probably right on. I’m in the process of divorcing, and this is one of the many things causing me pain – the idea that he is now actually recognizing that he is disordered and doesn’t relate or feel the same way as “normal” people.

almostfree – like you, i was married 13 years. It’s HARD HARD HARD to break free after that long. How long past the whole thing are you, and how are you coping? We’ve been separated only about 2 months (i know you’ve read & responded to my other posts) – i’m doing way better but boy do i have some bad, bad moments.

Pathological lying – it’s so true. Bird – when i read your post, i wanted to jump up & down – yes! yes! – totally! Lies even when there’s no reason to!! Why??? it’s craziness. It’s ingrained. They don’t even know what the truth is or means.

Mine emailed me a couple of days ago to ask me if there’s any chance I’d let him back in my life, now that he’s seeing a psychologist & basically has his diagnosis of NPD/borderline/bipolar (some mix thereof). Somehow I think he’ll wind up seeing his diagnosis as an excuse for everything that happened? I’m glad for HIS sake that he’s getting help. But I can’t go back, I was just so exhausted and broken. I didn’t answer him – i feel bad for not answering, even just to say no, but even that just takes so much emotional energy.

One thing I wish: I know his self-recognition is somewhat rare. And the fact that he’s seeing a therapist who knows what he’s dealing with – it’s pretty amazing in a way (although he wouldn’t do it earlier, to save our marriage).

But it makes me sad that he doesn’t have all those good traits: compassion, honesty, etc. and he may well be destined for a life of unhappiness. I don’t wish that on anyone. My OWN compassion keeps me from feeling a whole lot of anger these days.

Interesting that when he emailed me, (this goes to whomever wrote about them mimicking our needs) – he wrote that he wanted a chance to give me the things I deserved finally: a family, a partnership, a community. These were the EXACT words I said to him the night we separated. He came back to me to offer EXACTLY what i’d asked for. It’s uncanny – it actually is a bit spooky. In a way, I think he knows he’s supposed to want these things…therein lies the tragedy.


Oh one more thing – the morality thing – mine used to also criticize the husbands of these two colleagues of his…about how badly they treated their wives..! I remember always thinking, damn, but you’re just like them..only worse..! (Never dared say that of course.) Unless you were someone to idealize (in a position of power or adoring of him), you were either devalued – or completely ignored (or in my case, all of the above at varying points..!)
So damn textbook. ugh.

Ox Drover

Hi gang,

You know, we think, WE THINK, that they are “unhappy” and that they know we have “something” they don’t but aren’t sure what it is…but I don’t think they are necessarily unhappy. Even my P-son who is in prison, I dont’ really think he is UNhappy. His environment is STIMULATING to him, think of all the “little cons” he can do there, and all the plotting and schemes he can do. Breaking the rules–any rules–is FUN for him. He just loves to break rules just to “get away with” ANYTHING that anyone in authority makes a “rule” about.

Wouldn’t that be “happiness” to a P? Of course he would rather be outside, but if he got outside again, he would be quickly rearrested for breaking more laws, he doesn’t fear prison, it is HOME or should be after living more than half his life and all of his adult life in prison, he has adjusted, made the “most” of it by breaking every rule they’ve made except killing a guard. He’s had sex with female guards, he’s bribed guards, conned the wardens, and on and on. I think the free world would be so boring to him that he would be really REALLY unhappy, there fore since I want the BEST for my kids, I’ll do my best to see that he is where he is HAPPIEST! And, where I am the safest!


The sickness of having been married to a sociopath is he has turned my kids against me. And he is not their natural father. I believe with him, it’s a “control” thing, a must “win” thing, and or a “get even” thing. He don’t care about my kids, not once ounce. And yet my kids believe him and not me. Because he can make himself look, stable, while me, totally “unglued”. I cry daily over the lose of my kids and my grandkids, they call me crazy, and throw me out of their house. They won’t give me the time of day.They call me paranoid-delusional. No doubt a fact from my x. If it wasn’t for a few frineds a few family members who believe me when I tell how my x-husband conned me, I don’t know what I would do. Truly, don’t know. the a master of all con artist.m whose idol is “Ted Bundy”. How can I tell my kids, all the sick ways in which we lived together sinse our marriage. How he controlled my money, my thoughts, my family, my loved ones. He controlled everything about me, my mind, my heart, and my soul. How can I tell my kids, the way I lived wiht him, the way, I pretended all was well, the way I hoped and prayed when he said he loved me, it was true. How I ignored all the red flags, how I pretended where wer the average middled aged couple, when behind closed doors, I lived with the real monster. Please somebody help me, I fear is is after my randdaughter for secual reasons. and my fears have som early concerntre concerns.
Please help e=je.


Dear Bird. This is one of the major RED FLAGS from someone with PDisorder. Their actions DO NOT match their words. My exN said he cherised (Yes cherised!!) and adored me, yet he couldnt be bothered to see me half the time!!

Dont forget the mission statement of PsNsSs – SEEK – CONQUER – DESTROY – DISCARD. I remember my exN saying he was going to punish me for speaking up – I pleaded with him crying ‘but Ive done nothing wrong’, he looked at me in glee -I am sure they want to mould their partners as surrogates to feel the pain they felt as children.

Tmassar – yes a clever ploy that one – making a statement about someone else to insinuiate that they ARE FAITHFUL, TRUSTWORTHY – my exN did that and because he said he couldnt tolerate infidelity, I trusted him and he turned out to be the worst philanderer I have ever been with.

JFour, Gather up some evidence or an explanation in a way that your kids will understand and explain it calmly to them. they may not believe you then and there but give them time to digest and think about what you have said and ask you questions. Say to them that they are free to ask questions, that will show your openness. I do not know about child protection in the US, but your comments about your grand daughter will need to be followed up in some way.


One thing I wish: I know his self-recognition is somewhat rare. And the fact that he’s seeing a therapist who knows what he’s dealing with – it’s pretty amazing in a way (although he wouldn’t do it earlier, to save our marriage).”………..tmassar

I was married to a sociopath for 32 years and realized, finally, that he had been totally manipulating me for all of that time. Just let me say, tmassar, that even though they go to therapy, it does not mean that they INTERNALIZE what people say to them. It also means that it gives them one more excuse to do as they darn well please because now they are “diagnosed’ as having problems. They don’t really accept the diagnoses and it most definitely does NOT mean they will make any attempt to change.

My ex went to therapy, but pretty much discounted everything the therapist tried to help him with except for the few things he wanted to hear – like our 32-year marriage had “run out of steam” and it was okay to carry on with his children’s choir director, married, and 20 years younger (he was a director of worship at a megachurch).

Even while he was devaluing me and discarding me, he would tell me things like, “You can trust me to help you through this. I am really a good guy.” Or my favorite? “When I look in the mirror I can see that I am really a wonderful person”.

For 32 years I believed I was living with a man who lived what he professed to believe, but when it all started falling apart, I realized he was a liar, a serial adulterer, and that he had been manipulating me for 32 years to make sure I didn’t blow his public image.

Sad, isn’t it?


So much the same. Bizarre. Except Catholic not Protestant.
These creeps have the same MO all over…I am sure we’ll have a Rabbi’s wife post soon!

Ox Drover

DEar JFour,

WElcome to the healing place this is, I’m sorry you have suffered so much that it is necessary for you to be here, but you have arrived at the RIGHT place.

Yes, they are VERY good at being the “monster” behind closed doors and “mr. Nice Guy” to the public and even other family members. They appear cool, calm and collected, and they “drive you crazy”—I too “was crazy”—and appeared like I should have been locked up in a straight jacket a year ago this month–but you know, even though my mother, my oldest son didn’t believe me, called me a liar to my face because THEY knew that the Psychopaths (more than one) were soooooo trustworthy and I was the big bad liar…well, eventually the Psychopaths went to jail, and one is still in prison so sometimes you do get vindicated, other times, you don’t.

Unfortunately, sometimes the psychopaths are soooo good at their lies that the other people DON’T ever believe you. I think many if not most of the bloggers here have had that same experience of trying to tell others about the “monster” the P is and no one will believe them. I have trusted Ps before and I was warned before hand and I DID NOT BELIEVE IT EITHER. I should have listened.

I know you must hurt badly at the fact that your own children don’t believe you. My Psychopaths turned my oldest son against me too, but I have him back how…Praise God! So some good came out of all of this (he was married to one who had distanced him from our family). So, don’t lose hope that one day your psychopath will drop the mask and they will see the REAL MONSTER behind his MASK. In the meantime, I would suggest that you just GET AWAY from him, NO CONTACT. Of any kind.

When you have had some time to heal, and get your emotional feet back under yourself, then you can calmly tell your story to those that you love–repeat–CALMLY, and then let them digest it. They may not believe you NOW but the time may come when they will.

My son C said to me after it all blew up, “Mom was a prophet” but I wasn’t, I just KNEW what they were. I had to back off, and literally run and hide, but when I did, they self exploded. As long as I was “fighting it” it actually gave them more strength and took away my own sanity. I finally realized I couldn’t convince my family their danger so I left and quit telling them, but then, THEY SAW FOR THEMSELVES and the words I had said proved to be true.

I have a friend, age 70, who was married to one for nearly 50 years and when she left he swore he would break her and take all of her family away from her and make them think she was crazy. She was “crazy” with pain, loss, grief, etc. for a while, but she is doing well now and her kids are seeing that their “daddy” isn’t all that they thought he was.

Recently my friend went back east to her grandson’s wedding and she literally did not recognize her x husband, he looked so bad, and her kids are calling her now and grandkids and in the end, THEY will see.

The psychopaths can’t keep up the mask forever, they let it drop, so heal yourself, concentrate on YOU and getting yourself back together, and there is a good chance that the family may see the TRUTH, and that’s what’s important, but if they never see the truth, you will at least be whole and healthy. ((((hugs))))) and God bless you.


I remember reading Cleckley and A. Lowen regarding anti-social personalities. One quote was “a life devoid of emotions is beyond our imaginations. With that learned, work in sequence to your questions of whether an anti-social personality knows what they are doing. The answer is yes. They know what they are doing from an intellectual viewpoint only. No emotions involved in any decision making they conduct. NO EMOTIONS? No emotions. They walk like a duck and quack like a duck, and shake like a duck, but they aren’t a duck. Not in this frame of mind … living in their ego.

My life was destroyed by anti-socials (for which I call them surface dwellers or SD for short) skimming the surface of life, never wading deep into the waters of emotions.

Anyway, I kept analyzing them as they did their destructive deeds to my career. How they loved every minute of inflicting pain into my daily life. Monday, through Friday, week in, week out, for six entire years I endured all that they came up with to break me down. Mondays I was pulled in to trumped up meetings where issues they fabricated would never be resolved. Tuesdays they left me to soak up what happened on Mondays. Wednesday, like clockwork … I was pulled into trumped up meetings. Thursday, I was left to soak up what happened the day before and the day before that. Fridays, I was brought into trumped up meetings … just to ensure I would have a miserable weekend. Next week it started all over again. All these meetings, all these weeks, month in month out, year in year out I prayed “forgive them Lord, for they NOT know what they do”. I must have said that prayer at least 50 times per work day. “forgive them Lord, for they know NOT what they do”. All those years I kept remember my readings about anti-social personalities and how we should never underestimate an anti-social personality, the lower they go today, the lower they can go tomorrow. So tomorrow was always worse than the day before. Those days that they laid off me and I wasn’t pulled into a trumped up meeting (for which I called them Kangaroo court) wasn’t to give me a breather … it was to tweak and work on my co-workers nearest me to get them to finally break (snap). When a co-worker has finally had it with the unfairness of a complaint in the office, 9 out of 10 times they take their frustrated anger out on a co-worker other than the supervisor or manager. So what do you think eventually happened …. yes, yes, yes, a co-working near me would get frustrated and explode and the explosion was usually directed at me….not knowing how they were being played like a fiddle… So of course, I was pulled into more trumped up meetings. Where I sat their and silently prayed “forgive them Lord, for they not know what they do”. This was a well oiled machine … playing their anti-social games in the workplace.

So that was the first shoe that feel. My career was ended … never to be revived. Then the 2nd shoe fell. My fiance was an anti-social personality too and took off and left me penniless. I could tell you more … but you get the message. Now, what was I to do? Was I going to stay bitter and in pain for the rest of my life? Was I ever going to get passed this set back so systematically choragraphed by anti-social personalities? So I prayed to God to get me through this phase in my life. I prayed and prayed and prayed to God. Then one day, I prayed that God would send me a messenger. Messengers are always coming in and out of our lives … we just have to recognize them. When we are ready, we will see them … we will hear them. I already told this story on another page. Bottom line is … Oprah was on TV playing in the background noise. She mentioned E. Tolle’s book “A New Earth”. I logged on to her site and signed up for the class. I got Mr. Tolle’s book and read it cover to cover. Every Tuesday, after Oprah and Tolle’s classes, I downloaded the latest chapter of Mr. Tolle explaining his book in detail. 10 Chapters, free of charge on Oprah’s site. The pain is gone. My compassion for others has returned. My insight into life is so much fuller, brighter, exciting. The greatest gift is to have my sense of humor back. It feels great to laugh again. It feels great to see my family and friends and those I love. When I think back, I think my sense of humor and my ability to love others is what irked all the SDs in the first place.

So do yourself a favor. Read E. Tolle’s book “A New Earth”, log onto and download all his lectures about his book. Pass this information on to every one you know.

I send you Love and Peace and Harmony back into your life


tmassar, I’ve been away from the S for 7 months, divorced for the past 2. This is what I’ve done to help heal myself: I’ve read nearly every book on P’s/S’s, narcissism, anti-social personality disorder, and sexual addiction. I’ve been in one-on-one therapy and am now in group therapy with other women in situations similar to mine. I joined a local S-Anon (Sex Addicts Anonymous) group, for which I attend weekly meetings. I have learned so much, and it has helped me heal. I know there was nothing I did to cause this person to treat me so cruelly – no matter who he is with, the same thing will happen. He had been married before and did the same thing.

There continue to be days where I wake up struggling with the realization of what has happened. I made yet another slip yesterday when I asked him to meet me as I had some things to tell him. He agreed, and we met, and I talked and talked, he listened, and again there was my proof, staring right at me – there was nothing in his eyes, absolutely nothing, as he truly feels nothing. I have been mostly No Contact, but every now and then I feel I have to try to reach him. But, I think I may be done now. When you look into the eyes of an S, and truly see them for what they are, it can be frightening. The eyes are the windows of the soul, and he has no soul, so there is nothing there.

I told him he controlled me our entire marriage, and he laughed, as though this was completely ridiculous. The truth is, he is completely ridiculous, lives in his own fantasy world, where there is no room for reality. I know this now, and this helps me recover.

I have to focus on me now, as we all do. I am attempting to get my career back, as he convinced me years ago to quit my job. I have to get my self-esteem back, and it’s coming back slowly but it takes a lot of work.

We have to be grateful that we are humans, we live human values, they do not. I would much rather be a human being with real emotions and real pain and real joy, than absolutely nothing, void of all emotions.

Ox Drover


Glad things are on the healing path for you, it sounds like you are doing “all the right things” and the healing will come one step at a time. GOOD FOR YOU.

That “look” and the “laughing” at you—that must be so painful for you. The being scoffed at I think for me at least was worse than being SLAPPED. The slap would have ONLY been physical pain and being scoffed at, derided, discounted, by someone you loved is a knife to the soul.

I think though, just by its very painfulness, we learn that anytime we break NO CONTACT we will get a “dose” of this medicine that is so painful, that eventually no contact becomes easier. With my mother, who scoffed unmercifully at me in her role as the “Psychopath-by-Proxy” calling me the psychopath, me the liar, etc and I KNEW I was the ONLY one NOT lying. But that very derision was what made me finally able to go no contact with her, which is the best thing I have ever done. Hang in there, you’re making progress! (((hugs))))


I thought I would share this daily quote that came to my e-mail tonight.

Your Great Quotation of the Day

Confidence….thrives only on honesty, on honor, on the sacredness of obligations, on faithful protection and on unselfish performance. Without them, it cannot live.

Franklin D. Roosevelt


To OxDrover: I meant to respond to your e-mail regarding your ex and the damage to you and your personal property. Same thing happens to all of us … as you know by reading this blog. I think they attack us so brutally this way is because they got involved with us in the first place for us to some how save/fix/repair them. Our ex’s were attracted to our light (our good qualities). Qualities that the SDs (Surface Dwellers – that’s my name for them) instinctively know (on whatever level they are really on) they don’t have. There is a void in them. A void that only they can go silent, be still, talk with God and repair themselves. They don’t understand this. That’s why they continue running all their lives … running, running, running. To where? How does some one really run away from themselves??? They have a love/hate thing going on with every one they meet. They love a person when drawn to their light … then within hours/days/maybe a week .. their disappointment sets in … but they don’t let us know (they mask it). We still think we’re in this great relationship, it’s only been a few days or weeks and we are still going strong … not realizing … “we” were over long time ago. They clock us because they are frustrated. The more they give us pain and the more damage they do to our property, the more they steal from us, lies to us, cheat us, deceive us … the greater the pain they are in. At least that is what my heart of hearts tells me it is.

Ox Drover

Dear Wini,

The Trojan Horse Psychopath is a convicted child molester who “infiltrated” our family with the intention of killing me (long story about a Trust) for my psychopath son who was financially cut out of my will. I fled from him after discovering who he really was, so he (by this time was having an affair with my P-daughter-in-law) changed his plans to just rob my mother and take off with the DIL, their affair was discovered by my son C so they tried to kill him, got arrested and went to jail. She is out on probation now, but he is still in prison.

Duriing the time I was gone from home (june, july of last year) while he was out he was vandalizing my home and farm, nothing serious was discovered until we realized what had been done to motors that “mysteriously wouldn’t run” and locked up. He couldn’t find me to kill me, so he just did as much financial damage as he could on engines that were not regularly started–lawn mower, generator, and air plane. I’m just glad he didn’t get my farm tractor as well.

While it was a financial “kick in the head” the thing I am GRATEFUL fior is that I realized that while I had a bad DAY out of it full of anger, frustration, etc. IT DIDN’T RUIN MY ENTIRE SUMMER. If that had been known last year I would have melted down again, and I DIDN’T melt down, so in a way, I can look at the positive part of it, that says I am stronger now, much MUCH MUCH stronger now than I was then. Better able to COPE with “stuff” that happens in a more positive way. Accept what cannot be changed and not let it get me down down DOWN.

IN a way I can almost laugh now, because in the court room he kept smirking at me, sitting there in his orange jump suit smirking–now I know what he was smirking about. He knew he had left me a “suprise” that I would eventually discover. Even though HE was in jail, he had left evil behind and it gave him pleasure, made him feel like a “winner.” Well, I REALLY AM THE WINNER, because I have my life back. My strength back, and I am recovering, healing. He will never have that.


I read through the comments and kept nodding my head…it’s all so horribly familiar, isn’t it?

My P also spoke about his distaste for men who cheat – the hypocrite! I got confirmation this week that he was living with a woman when we first met (not his sister, like he told me). Also, he was romancing another woman at the same time he moved in with me and promised me we would spend our lives together. In fact, he married that woman while we were still together.

Even worse, I gave him the money he used to buy the plane ticket to the city where he got married! He told me he had a catering job in a nearby town and even called and sent me text messages during the few days he was away.

All this came to light in the past two weeks so I am in the thick of feeling intense rage and frustration. I fantasise about kidnapping and torturing him and I don’t feel bad about having those thoughts. He is in jail now but he could be free by next year and frankly I’m quite worried that he will try to hurt me. I exposed his lies to his wife and family and scuppered his plans for a cushy life sponging off his wife when he got out of prison. Also, I’ve been very vocal in my town about him and what he did and word is spreading about his true nature. I imagine he must hate me for that.

It is still hard to believe that our ENTIRE relationship was a lie, a scam. He plotted every moment of it and everything was calculated to get money and other material benefits from me.

When his wife and I confronted him in prison (we discovered his deception while chatting in the waiting room) he immediately became aggressive towards me and shouted at me to get out. The sick thing is that for an instant I actually felt guilty, like I had done something wrong. He gave me that look – filled with cold fury and evil.

What upsets me too is that in a weird way I was kind of jealous of his wife. Why did he marry her and not me? Rationally I know he was actually paying me a compliment – he knew he couldn’t fool me for much longer (I was being relentless in digging for the truth behind his jail sentence) and she is a softer, more gullible person than I am. Yet, I still feel jealous. I wanted to be picked for once. I guess that says something important about me.

I know I have a lot of soul-searching to do. After all, he had reasons for picking me. I need to look at what I did to make myself an inviting target for him.


You loved him, it’s normal to have wanted to have been “picked.” My P picked those who he could get something from: money, control.

I doubt anyone on here feels flattered they were proposed to and/or married a psycho. I know you know this, but I understand. My psycho claimed in the end he was being charitable socializing with me. That doing so was a ministry to the lonely you know. So I know how you feel.

They are motivated by power/control and duping delight, not love. You weren’t unloved, he can’t love.

Hope that helps.


You are so correct HWS. Rejection or failure is never easy to accept. But it makes it a little easier once you realize it has nothing to do with reciprocal feelings and everything to do with need and what you had to offer in fulfilling that need. Odette, he just found someone who could provide something more or more easily coveted. And I think that says something positive, not negative about you as you already know.


OxDrover: Your situation makes my situation look like I was baking cup cakes. I am sorry to hear that some SD (I call them surface dwellers – those that do not venture into the depth of emotional waters) was so whacked out he’d want to take your life. I hope they gave him life behind bars. It saddens my heart (and I’m not trying to sound whimpy by saying it this way), but it does, my heart saddens when people are ice cold that they can harm/kill another precious individual. Clueless, absolutely, clueless. I had my dealings with SDs over the years … thought I learned a lot … stayed away from any one that would be narcissistic to even ask if they looked OK, or their hair look nice, or their makeup was still on alright …. women stuff like that … and I no longer had patience with it after having SDs bombarded my life. As soon as I heard anything ridiculous come out of someone’s mouth … I was history. Learned not to stick around for the rest of the roller coaster ride thank you very much. Then years later … after I thought I did well staying clear from psycho personalities …my ex came into my life … this guy played the good guy, well rounded, down to earth, best buddy, good father, loving son … normal joe blow off the street … and ended up being the Biggest SOB psycho that walked down the pike (reminds me of a Ted Bundy) type … thank God he didn’t kill me … So now I thought I knew more than the average person about #%@Q$# like him … to find out … they can act perfectly normal and have deep conversations too boot now … and still be a psycho. What will they think of next? Don’t answer that question, I want to stick my head in the sand … call me when it’s over …. (just kidding). It’s unnerving though, to say the least. He blew my theory right out of the water. They’re like diseases that were conquered years ago … coming back because they’ve mutated and gotten bigger and better. God should have made them all SLIME GREEN green in coloring. That way we would know just how many they are. Where I worked, I’d estimate 45% of that place were anti-social personalities. I used to tell people that our theme song for work was the cha-hua-hau (spelling???) song (I, I, I, IIIIIIII).

Anyway, did you read any of what I’ve written on this blog about Tolle’s book? If so… a must read. Anyone who feels this pain needs to read the book to show you how to heal and, heal quickly.


I lived with my husband for 31 years before I finally found out the truth behind his anger. It was about money and we never had any. That told me so many love money but don’t want to work for it, and love isn’t a commodity they can live without. Love is a means to an end. Sex and money are the driving forces, from my experience. May the one with the most money win! What’s a relationship without real love? But if what all the experts say, these people don’t feel love, they don’t know how to receive it, so they can’t give it back. To them love is about the external things. That goes right back to sex and money. I wish someone could explain the why. Why do they want to do what they do and what do they hope to achieve, or is it just about winning at all costs? Sometimes I drive myself crazy seeing these kinds of actions and just wanting to know why. My children would ask me at times why their dad did some of the things he did, and all I could do was shake my head and say, I haven’t a clue.

If I were sick, he was sicker. I fell and tore up my shoulder. Rotator cuff, tendons, etc. Suddenly a week later, he “must have torn something in his shoulder throwing something in the truck”. He had himself so convinced it was like mine, that he went to the dr., they sent him to therapy, etc. Meanwhile, I’m walking around for a year, having to have surgery, using one arm to work with, taking therapy 3x a week. I want to ask why, but do they even know? I just didn’t bother. I just shook my head and walked away. It was like this the most of our married life. I don’t know if I ever felt married. I think it should be as much a state of mind as fact.

I’m just amazed though that someone has finally been able to put a label on it. I’m not one to label people, but I’ve been around some whom society considers mentally unstable, and they make more sense to me than these men I’ve been around. These men have been consistent in their inconsistencies, that they become predictable, but yet they are unnerving. The gaslighting, half truths, mocking, scoffing and they call it love. Because I’m too stupid to know how to do life and I need to be taught. Give me a break!

Ox Drover


I’ve said this before, it is an idea from Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning”–he wrote it after he was released from years in a Nazi prison camp. He described pain as acting like a gas, whether it is a little pain or a lot of pain, it ENTIRELY fills the space you put it in.

That made so much sense to me. It doesn’t matter if my Psychopath was “badder” than yours I felt 100% pain and so did you. We BOTH felt 100% filled with pain for our losses. Just like there is more or less an “upward limit” to the pain the brain can process in the human body, there is also an upward limit to the amount of pain we can experience emotionally I think. It may go on longer or shorter, but there is for me, anyway, an UPPER limit of which even more injury can’t make me emotionally hurt any worse. I reached it, several times, but I think most of the people here reached their own upper limits too, so just because my Ps tried to kill me, dones’t make my situation any worse or any more painful than others’ if that makes any sense.

Apt/Mgr, go back and read some of the essays in the archives if you haven’t already, or reread them and I think you can answer your qusestion of “why” as well as it will ever be answered, or read Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscience”–it’s just the way their brain works to “reward” them with a thrill. Part of it is the “hardwiring” (genetic part) and part is “learned response.”…..push button, get food. The thing we have to grasp though is that they do NOT want to change, see no need for it. Don’t learn from punishment or negative reinforcement. Never accept responsibility that the consequences (punishment) is the result of THEIR behavior, can always blame it on external forces, never themselves.


I remember when I found out. It was slowly creeping up on me from the fender bender I had on November 8th, until right before Thanksgiving (yeah, me as the turkey) … having my best friend and my sister knocking on my front door … like well oiled machines … hugs/kisses at the greeting of opening up the door … and then we were down in the basement grabbing every piece of paper he left behind in his boxes that were stored. Boxes in the spare BR, boxes in the utility room, paperwork in his office. All the paperwork was brought upstairs and piled on top of my dinning room table. That’s when I was seeing FACTS versus all his fiction. This man lied to me from the day he met me. Incredible. Even though I met SDs before, worked with them, went to school with them, knew some of them in my earlier years … I ended up going numb. Numb from November until the middle of March. Thank God for this small miracle. I needed to be coherent while contacting police, FBI, attorney etc. Even when my emotions flowed back in … I didn’t give two tiddlies about “us” as a couple, knowing “what couple – ha” … I was down this road before in my life. I did feel awful that I knew he couldn’t love. That broke my heart. Actually, that breaks my heart for all of them with this condition (listen to me, sounds like we’re discussing a pregnancy. That’s why I’m praying what Tolle wrote is true … and if folks in the psych profession can sample it out with a few of them … (the breathing techniques, being silent, stopping your ego from controlling your existence …. it’s getting them to stop long enough to get them to try Tolle’s therapy. You’d have to play them at their own game … telling them that they are now incarcerated for 20 years … but if they go to this session and pass with flying colors … then maybe you’ll be out in 5. Who knows. We can all pray to God that Tolle’s theory works for them too. I’m so sick of knowing that human’s like them exist living this way. This is so aweful… A life devoid of emotions is beyond imagination. A “N” is telling it like it is. Day in, day out, week in, week out, year in, year out … it’s ALL the SAME. Nothing changes for them. No wonder so many of them do dare devil stunts and jump off cliffs and canyons, skyscrappers.


There is no set blue print of what they are and how they will act. The masks they wear are as diverse as we are. I guess they study us … any one of us … figure out what works, throws out what doesn’t … as the years blandly creep by them. I now believe the older they get, the more refined the act is. Younger psychos are easier to spot … something trips them up … usually it’s one of us SCREAMING at the top of our lungs and being all glassy eyed (if it’s the first go around), as we salivate while trying to talk. Now I’m laughing. I’m logging off now because I just thought that they’re wearing off on me.


I think that the sociopath does get more refined with age. Mine was 52 and has wonderful people skills (or so it appears). He is a wonderful conversationalist and a good listener as well. He is great at explaining his view on about any subject.

He will tell you in a heartbeat what is wrong about something that you did, but doesn’t see wrong in anything he does. He loves to tell others how to act morally or otherwise, but doesn’t seem to follow the rules himself.

He also has a unique way of turning a situation around and putting the other person on the defensive.


Reading many of the posts here, personally I think that there are traits that they have in common. As Hummingbird put it, they have very good verbal skills, are extremely perceptive, manipulative in knowing how to use gaslighting and denial in order to guilt trip their victims. Mine said he was an excellent listener (when he wanted to) and he was, BUT he was NOT an excellent speaker when it came to revealing parts of his inner self, his thoughts, dreams, moods etc – he kept that world very much to himself. If you really analyse and look closely at their behaviour there are soooooo many holes and inconsistencies!!

Ox Drover

My P-son did get more refined with age. As a teenager he was openly rebellious and “teenaged stupid” with his rebellions and acting out, but as he got older he started to put 2 and 2 together to get 4. He knew our values inside and out, he knew how to manipulate my mother, as evidenced from a letter he wrote to the Trojan HOrse P “Don’t worry about pissiing my mother off, just don’t piss off grandma. Grandma ALWAYS takes my side against mom.”

The letters he wrote to my mother sounded like they were written by a psychologist who was a very caring and Christian person. The ones he wrote to the TH-P sounded like some gang member and were filled with profanity, bragging about doing crimes, etc.

Yes, he had learned as he got older to delay gratification somewhat until he had all his “ducks in a row” and to pretend to have a moral compass. He knew what OUR moral compass was so could mimic it most of the time. Especially in LETTERS.

I think he got as much pleasure in his plots and plans as he did in the potential outcome of “success”–it was like a big chess game against his Nemesis, me. He has a big push to punish ME especially, that probably goes back to when I turned him in to the police when he was 17, and he has never forgotten that “insult” to him. His drive to “get even” with me for that injury has never left him. I doubt that it ever will since I added more injury to the former one by overcoming his latest plot.

He has NONE of the “human values” that any of us cherish. Absolutely ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE–yet, he is demanding of others that they all display ALL these VALUES FOR HIM. He feels that he has a BASIC RIGHT to receive all these, but NO responsibility to practice them. That’s for suckers. He’s above that, he’s better than that.

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