By | May 23, 2010 79 Comments

Violence in sociopaths

Is every violent person a sociopath? Are all sociopaths violent? What is the relationship between violence and sociopathy/psychopathy? These are the questions we will think about here. I welcome your comments and stories.

In his book “On Aggression” Nobel Prize winning ethologist Konrad Lorenz expressed deep concern for the human race. He pointed out that other social animals have “releasers;” these are inborn signals that turn off aggression. For example, when wolves fight, if one animal turns over on its back, the fighting generally stops. The purpose of aggression in social species is simply to enforce dominance, so when the victor gets the signal it is dominant, the fighting stops.

Lorenz said screaming and crying act as releasers for humans as these tend to inhibit aggression. The problem for humans is that we have created weapons that enable aggression to occur at a distance so the natural releasers don’t have a chance to turn it off.

Yet we also know there are those who enjoy seeing other people suffer. In these individuals there is not only no mechanism to stop aggression, there is also a positive incentive toward violence. An extreme example of this is serial killers who seek out victims to enjoy the act of killing them. Some people are fascinated and mystified by the behavior of these serial killers, but actually the behavior is pretty simple to understand. I’ll explain it using two other pleasures with which you are familiar- eating and sex. These are two examples that illustrate the way the pleasure system works.

First, let’s consider eating. The purpose of eating is to nourish the body, but eating is also much more than that. Eating gives us pleasure and can even reduce anxiety. Why it is that eating feels good is likely connected to our need to overeat during times of plenty. Eating during times of plenty allows us to become fat and thus protected from famine. If eating stopped once the body was nourished, we couldn’t get fat. So to keep us eating more and more, Mother Nature made it an enjoyable act.

There are different was to get pleasure from eating. Foods that are sweet, sour, fatty, or meaty all stimulate different nerve cells. People also differ with respect to the pleasure associated with different tastes. Some people don’t like sweets very much and some people are repulsed by meat.

Now consider that sex is the same as eating in many ways. The “purpose” of sex is procreation, but it also strengthens social bonds, is pleasurable and reduces anxiety. We are prone to becoming “oversexed” just as we are prone to becoming obese. There are also different flavors of sexual pleasure.

The dominance system is another instinctive behavioral system just like the feeding and sex systems. The pleasures associated with the dominance system come in different “flavors.” One “flavor“ or pleasure associated with this system is winning at a competition. Whether the competition is a chess or baseball game, winning is a pleasure.

In social groups the dominant members are the “enforcers” as they get to administer rewards and punishments to others. Helping people can actually be a function/pleasure of the dominance system. Similarly, enjoyment of hurting others is also part of dominance. The alphas get to punish those who don’t do what they want and they take pleasure in inflicting this punishment.

What we see in some sociopaths is a type of “fetish” of the dominance system. Just like some people are excessively turned on sexually by underwear, some sociopaths are excessively turned on in the dominance sense by violence.

If you think about what I am saying you will see that there are two pathways to violence in sociopaths. The first is an immediate impulsive response to threats to their dominance. The second is a premeditated seeking out of the pleasure associated with hurting. Both of these occur and the presence of one correlates with the presence of the other because an over active dominance drive underlies both.

Lack of empathy is important to the development of the enjoyment of violence because a person who lacks emotional empathy, lacks the releaser Lorenz talked about so there is nothing to turn off the violence. But it is also possible that some sociopaths have a modicum of empathy that is drowned out by the pleasures of dominance.

The take home message for you is that if you are involved with a person who is preoccupied with dominance, control and manipulation you have to wonder what violence they are capable of. It is like the sexual pervert, you may only be seeing the tip of the iceberg. We just do not know how to pick out those sociopaths who lead secret lives in which they kill. If you know a sociopath who has a track record of violence, please assume the person is potentially very dangerous.

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I do not think all psychopaths are violent, just the same way not all people with empathy are loving.

Empathy gets blocked off with a bad up bringing, just like violence gets surpressed in psychopaths who’s mission is to get by undetected

I am mesmerised by former posts dated 2008 (I just happened to see them now) under the heading ‘what does the psychopath ‘do’ with this diagnosis- post by ‘SecretMonster’

Does anyone remember this poster? has he gone now or does he ever visit the odd time? everything he said in his posts, all the answers to the brilliant questions put to him by LF…completed the missing pieces for me on what goes on in a psychopath’s head (his mission was to get by undetected) some of the answers are chilling….yet he was trying to help,It was like having an honest conversation with the P.

He outlines what he thinks, how he lives so as to blend in and not cause too much devastation, he does that for himself not out of any feeling for a human being

Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

Thank you for this very thought provoking article.

The point you made about wolves (or most breeds of dogs) who will stop aggressing if the “whipped” animal gives up is very valid. However, I have seen a documentary in the last year or so that suprised me quite a bit about a couple of wolf packs. It was about the various packs of wolves near Yellowstone and how one pack systematically wiped out the other, deliberately killing the weaker pack. They took over territory that they neither needed nor could defend, apparently just for the “fun” of it.

Though the behavior of wolves has been one of my “favorite” subjects for many years, I was very suprised at this behavior in wolves over a long term observation, as generally in the wild they have a very cooperative “society.”

You mention people who are preoccupied with dominance and control in your article as being potentially violent, and I agree completely with this. I have seen this in all of the physically violent psychopaths I have encountered and both my P-son and my male DNA donor were/are extremely physically dangerous when thwarted or frustrated in their desire for control/dominance. The violence can be triggered INSTANTLY “out of the blue” when least expected.

Again, thank you very much for this article, I don’t think I have seen it explained any more clearly anywhere.


Liane, this is an article that gives food for thought, and thank you for posting it.

Personally, I believe that all (yes, all) spaths are violent. Whether it’s physical violence, or verbal/emotional violence, they are perpetrators.

If only the emotional damage is considered, it is “vioent” to cause another person to feel belittled, discarded, fearful, disoriented, and all of the rest that goes along with it. Every post by a Survivor that I’ve read on this website has been frought with emotional violence (at the very least) – I have yet to read a single Survivor’s post that could translate into, “He/she was just a jerk. I was able to walk away without any damage, at all.”

Yes……they are capable of so much violence that we Survivors couldn’t comprehend the depravity of their inner fantasies.


Its unbelievable to me that this guy has felony and fraud in three states, he is a bigamist and from what I can see has threatened to kill people in his own family.

According to what I have been told, he has served time for manslaughter and been investigated by the SEC for fraud.

He is now serving a repeat term in a FEDERAL Prison where he is being evaluated for pathology and the GOD DAMN attorney here says there really isn’t much point in pursuing for bigamy or a protection order because nobody will give me one and I can’t find the records which would justify it and the PI I am supposed to be working with won’t call back.

I just could EXPLODE after reading the last paragraph of this article.

The total cluster F*.* of dealing with the law enforcement and legal people who won’t say boo to me and the stuff I can find in plain sight which points to UBER scary which I can’t find validation of because for whatever reasons its hidden from the places I can afford to go is stunning.

The SYSTEM is protecting him, NOT me. And it is inert in that position until I come up with a reason for it to move. I am paying all the right resources to do all the right things and I am sitting out here in left field waiting for him to get out of prison and come see what he can get out of the “relationship he left behind”. If I succeed in business, I have no doubt, he will be back because that is what he was after in the first place. The reward- it sure as hell wasn’t love.

But I pay the people who are supposed to be doing all this work and I pay taxes which in turn pay salaries and frankly, I just don’t get it.

If something ugly does come to pass, who sits there and says well shucks, I didn’t know and Oops? At what point does the system which is in place to protect get held to account for doing it?

This drills right into the discussion we have threaded around this site which calls for activism in the legal, political and law enforcement arenas.

Case by case it drills to that. And the finger always points to the same thing. Either the cases get added up into something big enough to start throwing powerballs into the system or my case and yours and the next one are going into this stupid abyss where a lot of people get paid their money under the pretense of doing something about these disordered, but NOTHING that makes a difference gets done and NO ONE is held to account.

It makes me very, very distressed.

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

I SHARE YOUR FRUSTRATION, and my “little P darling son” is in prison as well. I had to hire an attorney to fight his [email protected] Still won’t know for 6 months or so if he gets one or not, and if not, how long before he can apply again! In which case I will have to hire an attorney again and fight it AGAIN.

If your X has a HISTORY OF THREATS (much less actual physical violence) you can BET HE IS DANGEROUS. Watch Dateline or 20/20 or 48 hours mystery about men and women who have MURDERED their x or someone either out of revenge or just malice. Latest 48 hours was about a COP in Dallas (female) who apparently killed her X-BF’s wife execution style and only now 25+ years later was arrested and charged with it, for all those years apparently the Dallas cops covered it up but DNA from a bite to the victim puts her at the scene.

I am sitting on “GO” prepared to disappear if my P-son gets parole and/or gets any significant money from my egg donor. There is a book called “How to be invisible” by J.J. Luna (the 2004 version) that will HELP as well as some inforrmation I got from the PI–you don’t have to run or disappear from the Feds, just another PI, and there are some good suggestions in the book.

It is unfortunate that the BURDEN of safety is on our shoulders, not the psychopaths’ but that is the REALITY of it all. I’m not rich by any means, and taking off and hiding is going to use the rest of my resources, it won’t be easy for sure, but I am prepared if necessary to live in a tent and eat out of a dumpster if that is what it takes to be safe from him. In the meantime, I am not living in terror, but with A good amount of CAUTION…and heavily armed. There’s no way as long as he is alive that I will be totally safe from him, but I can keep the risk down at least by knowing how much if any money he has to track me with.

One of the things that Mr. “Luna” points out in his book is that information can be BOUGHT or conned by a good PI so it is imperitive that ADVANCE ARRANGEMENTS are made for “disappearing” (meaning having NO paper trail leading to your actual location.) If you are trying to WORK, pay rent, taxes, utilities, register a car, etc. it is difficult, but DOABLE legally.

I was fortunate that the local sheriff DID BELIEVE ME and help as much as he could, but the law actually tied his hands since the psychopath had not at that time committed a crime he could be arrested for. When he did, he was arrested. Not much time, as all charges (attempted murder included) were dropped EXCEPT “felon in possession of a hand gun” which is a felony, but he only got 5 yrs, with 2 suspended, and out on parole in a yr and a half and only then because I raised HELL with the parole board. His parole officer did not know he was a convicted SEX OFFENDER X 3 with CHILDREN.

One other thing, I just thought of, call the local VICTIMs advocate office the woman there was VERY HELPFUL to me. She went above and beyond to help me and give me information about what I could do. There is a service called VINE (nationwide) that notifies victims on any status change of the convict, like he gets parole or is coming up for parole, and though the “crime” he was convicted of did not make me a DIRECT victim, she helped me anyway! Try that, it might work!

In the meantime, I know where you are coming from and empathize with you completely! Glad you at least found out a bit of information on him. ((((Hugs))) and God bless.


Silvermoon, I am so sorry for your angst – you have EVERY right to be angry! It is righteous anger – righteous indignation!

Knowing what a biotch I can be when it comes to this type of stuff, I would probably be on the phone every day to my Congressman. Every Day. Sometimes, it’s fruitful, and other times it isn’t. But, the old addage: “grease and squeaky wheels (etc.)” may be a cliche, but it’s also true. At some point, somewhere, someone will actually hear the words that you’re saying, and listen. I firmly believe this. Consider the most annoying sound in the world to you – if someone made that sound every day for 3 weeks, you’d either find the source of that noise and silence it, or do something to fix the source of that noise to prevent it.

Brightest blessings, Silvermoon.


OxD – you have raised some really good points about the spath son. If there is a way that they can “get even,” I reckon that they’ll do it at whatever cost is required. I will look for that book.

And, the victims’ advocacy groups have a much louder, stronger, and united voice than one person alone. EXCELLENT suggestion!!!! Silvermoon, a victim’s advocacy group will hear you. They will support you. They will assist you in any way that they can – they are responding to “a calling” to help victims. They even have networks of “safe houses” across the entire US – they advocate for YOU.

More bright blessings to you, Silvermoon!


Emotional violence.. is using the words I love you as manipulation.. it’s saying everything that they know a woman wants to hear to get the upper hand and to control her…
then many use after they have the person in thier grip critiism to throw them off … I know you all know this.. but I have not been with a phycial abused only emotional.. well, I have been pushed by a man in an argument but that’s it..
If a man EVER hit me I would be gone in a flash.. but the emotional abuse I hang around for… then some use their voices.. as in raising them.. the last one I wwas with, when he raised it voice.. it sounded like the devil himself was speaking.
they know when to use what and who to use it on… as they observe and watch and learn how to manipulate and size people up..

Ox Drover

Silver, Buttons is right about her suggestion for the congressmen and senators, get on the phone to them, and write letters as well, you can e mail to them so they get it immediately. GREAT IDEA.

The VINE advocacy group (you can find it on the internet) is an official agency as well, not “just” a volunteer group, and they are very helpful. Even your STATE agency may be helpful with INFORMATION for you. Since my psychopath was a STATE conviction, I got help from them as well as signing up for the VINE program on line.

I do know how frustrating it is to try to get Justice! DUH! Safety is a MUST though!

Style, you are so right. Your “boundary” that you would allow no one to HIT you was a GOOD START for sure. Unfortunately I would never have allowed a husband/lover/friend to hit me, but I DID let my P-son do it! DUH! Sheesh, how stooooopid can a person get!? LOL


Style1-“Emotional violence…is using the words I love you as’s saying everything that they know a woman wants to hear to get the upper hand and to control her”….is so exactly what happened with my ex and myself. That’s how he got me. I am still asking myself everyday and trying to figure out why I LET him do so. I am on the quest for the answer to that question so I don’t ever repeat the same mistake again. That’s my big thing-what did I take from this to help make sure that it never happens again.


Erin, start the journey of loving yourself.
My long journey on this quest was what saved me from the last one after me. In my past, I was so looking for love from a man.

But my journey showed me that the healthy love of myself was key, then add in exeperience and common sense. It is easy to get ‘caught’ up in what looks like love, ‘contrived’ love if you will.
My father is emotionally abusive and an alcoholic. So, I have had two husbands that were alcoholics after vowing to myself as a young adult that I would never be around that. I have had several emotionally abusive relationships.. because I didn’t know what love really felt like. This last man, went though all the words and actions, yet I could never connect with him.. I feel it showed me that I am healing, in that, I have learned to love me and to see and feel truth.. and this man was not truth but he was a really good imitation.
Everyone likes to hear the words I love you. You are beautiful. You are wonderful.. but learn to hear the why of these words.. if they are spoken through enough experinces as friendship and time to have love develope … then there is truth in it. If they are spoken after two weeks of romance then nope.. they are illusion…

That ‘love’ drug is powerful… I don’t want the ‘love drug’. I choose now the real enduring emotion. And love for yourself, is a place to begin. You are okay just as you are and it matters not if you have someone telling you that you are loved… fill yourself up.
I held this last man at arm’s length… I was suspicious. His pronounments of love felt shallow.. as it was too soon for him to feel so intensely. And he had married a woman prevouisly in his life after a couple of weeks and I found that to be CRAZY! Ask questions, get to know the man.. before the ‘love’ thingy.. and if he won’t answer then be strong enough in yourself to pull back and observe. I was correct with this last man.. I was what ‘he’ wanted as a wife. I ‘fit’ his bill… but he didn’t take the time to know me enough to love me. So, learn to know yourself and listen to your instincts.

I missed him yesterday because I went to a place that we frequented often.. we did have fun together out and about.. he is a ‘fun’ person.. as long as things are going his way.. but he could turn into the devil quickly and he was very judgemental ‘according’ to his twisted sensabilities..

Today.. I am in the middle of a workout and am back to seeing him clearly..

So wait until you know that you are seeing clearly before ‘falling’ for the “I love you.”

If Tom Cruise can say it in a movie… any man with a brain or even half a brain can copy it…


Great post. I kept thinking about it and while walking saw a dog, barking, mean, dog behind the Invisible Fence. And – I thought to myself – what if electricity goes out?
A dog, sensing fear, bites. Even if you lay on your back, it’ll bite. Fear intensifies aggression in a vicious animal. Hmmmmm


So, if I fear the P, he’ll bite… and – if I won’t fear him, he’ll find a way to Make Me fear him, as mine did. But, he did not want me to fear him while we were together. He manipulated me all right, but was never violent. Caring and kind was the name of the game. Until all pieces fell into place that is 🙁

Ox Drover

Dear getting it,

A dog kept on a chain and frustrated and/or taunted become viscious quickly, even a “nice” dog, I thinnk sometimes that Ps are like that chained up dog, they never seem to get what they want, are always frustrated, and ultimately become more adept at violence both emotional and physical as they age rather than getting more mellow. Just MHO


OxD, I personally will not underestimate violent tendencies of spathy. From my experience, domestic violence/abuse is directly related to spathy, as well as violent criminal offenders.

Like I keep saying, I just don’t know where this epidemic began, but I cannot ever remember this level of violence and extreme brutality when I was a child.

We like to believe that our Nation is “civilized,” and far above the ilk of “third world countries.” I have this to say: at least 3rd world countries know that there will be warlords. In our country, we have millions of individual warlords perpetrating heinous emotional and physical crimes on a daily basis. We have the nerve to be shocked when spaths commit violence, yet we promote violence and spathy within our very culture.

What’s the answer? I don’t know. I’m hermitizing myself.


how many spaths are in new zealand?


Hi All,

Have been in shock since I read SecretMonster posts. I was pulled in again to trying to understand the psychopathic brain and re traumatised myself.

psychopaths who have murdered, who are locked up and recieve letters from “fascinated fans” and they start the con again, as long as they can operate they are scamming, conning, hurting, lying yet magnetically Draw innocent victims by their charm, intelligence and different energy.

I can totally see how it happens, there is something so tantalizing about a person who OOZES no remorse (and they do not say it, we have to literally find out the hard way, because they are LIARS), like the gay guy we want to turn straight ..its addictive, and as long as we are addicted we will be psycho fodder

I am drawn in again and again trying to understand it. I am distraught trying to understand it. I give up and the tears are just gushing out now…I feel I was reeled in again, and it was AS IF the no contact was broken….

How do we deal with these entities? what do we say in response to the cold matter of fact honesty that all they want to do is manipulate, feel power over people and scam peoples souls?

I keep going back to try and find something I can understand…and it’s like being pulled into a nightmare that is actually too much to comprehend.


Hey Everyone…

Skipped the gym today. Didn’t feel well….I went to a friend’s memorial service yesterday. She died suddenly…was “septic”?
It wasn’t a funeral …it was more like a huge wedding. Over 200 people there..for her “Celebration of Life”. She wanted it this way. It was very sad and I was really sad about it.
But, it made me think about life and time we have here.

She was a very happy person, did “life coaching” and was a minister who did tons of weddings. Always smiling. Only, the last time I saw her, I wondered why she didn’t take better care of her body. She was overweight and never mentioned getting into shape.

Now, she’s gone.

So, I was reading this article since I’m “off” today, and the posts.

Bulletproof…this is exactly how you have to be out there in the world…”bulletproof”. The reason I feel that we got “pulled in” simple. SElf ESTEEM.

If I met my X ‘s now, the way I feel now, STRONG and more self confident than ever…I would NEVER have let them get so far. I was very insecure and lonely when I got involved with this last one. I hardly went out and didn’t date at all. So, he came in and filled a void I had.

Thank God I didn’t spend alot of time with him…since we didn’t live close. I saw things in him from the start that werent right. Had I been a biotch like I am now..I would have set strong boundaries and NEVER let him get away with the little lies I closed my eyes to.

He is contacting me and if I went back, it wouldn’t last a minute! I would confront him and he would RUN!

I went out on a date from an online site…and he was so much more “normal” than my x. I could just tell. And, I kept my distance…arms length and had a wonderful dinner and conversation.

“It all comes down to how you feel about yourself.”

Thats MY philosophy. After being conned and manipulated, I made up my mind to be smarter, stronger, and wiser in my life.

I never was so vulnerable as I was when he “hooked” me. I was working, raising 3 kids…tired and not ready to meet anyone. So, he caught me at a weak point in my life.

My point is…that if we have HIGH self esteem, we will never get conned again.

Bullet, don’t let it “pull you in”. Accept that there are wackos out there and just feel good about who you are and avoid them.

Self esteem is everything.



I was at a hight point in my life when I met my last one..
I wasn’t even looking.. I was building a townhouse and was more than busy.. he came after me.. and I think because I was preoccupied.. I let him stay around ev even though I felt he was ‘off’ in ways…

I didn’t kept my life as it was and he merged into mine.. and I kept him at arm’s length watching..

and then he revealed himself and it began breaking down.. when he was aware how clearly that I saw him.. he was off..

we had fun and he was companionship but he was twisted.. he and leaning on me.. he lived in my house.. I gave him the lifestyle… I created the fun.. I planned what we did.. he just was there.. and I got exhausted.. now at times, I miss him.. because he was so in my life.. and the men that I meet since him .. well, there is just no connection…

I have no answers to anything.. but yes, self-esteem and let your friends meet him.. and listen to what they say…


You let him stay around even though he was “off” in ways.
Its probably because you were so busy you weren’t thinking right. Once you were “clear” he was gone. Good thing.

Don’t let him “rent” space in your head. I rarely even think of my x…and it made room for healthier people. I don’t need anymore toxic people to use me in my life anymore.

Since I made up my mind to move forward…I am meeting “normal” men…not disordered. I’ve changed and my whole life has changed now.” Boundaries” is the name of the game.

Once you get any memory of him out…all new comes in…
It takes time.

Quantum Solace

I have commented here on my life story with a Sociopath/Narcissist and my never-ending saga. Here’s another episode in my life that ties to this one. As part of the Monster’s manipulation, I lost everything, my children, my home, my sanity and almost my life. Everything else I was able to replace except for my children. After many years, the expected happened and he threw out my oldest child, a son, because he was involved in drugs. I knew all of this and more would happened but was powerless to do anything. Even in my latest court round, when I tried to regain custody of my daughter, I was chastized by everyone: judge, his lawyer, his wife, him. I was painted as a psycho, a monster, a thief. I did what I could and considered a victory the fact that I was able to get custody of my son, even if by default. The child had so many shortcomings and was so social innadequate that it was painful to watch but I tried my darnest, I helped him, I loved him, I sacrificed and I was patient as I knew that it would be a slow, painful process. Thngs weren’t perfect but I felt I had made a great deal of progress and was happy with what I could get. Until one good day, when I was away on business and received a call from my son, in the middle of the afternoon, to inform me that the night before “our house had been broken into, we were robbed and he was assaulted” – After a half an hour conversation with him, things didn’t sound right. Having my reservations, I called the Police Department and the true story emerged. After all nighter of binge drinking and drugs in my home with a dozen or so of his buddies, at about 4:30 a.m., a fight broke out. My son, the genius, pulled my kitchen knives on some of the other guys and the result was 1 of them in the hospital with a stabwound and 3 more in jail with 5 counts of aggravated assault. My furniture was destroyed, my front door was kicked in and my carpet and wall were soaked in blood. When I walked into my livingroom, it looked like the scene of a horror movie, blood and guts everywhere. The cost of fixing the damage he caused will be in the neighborhood of $5,000. The financial toll of taking him in, caring for him, buying him clothes, paying for 2 terms in college (which he failed), buying clothing, paying for his medical and dental bills, all of that is at least another $20,000. Never, throughout this ordeal, did he apologize much less accept responsibility for any of the events that trasnpired. In fact, his first words to me were “I don’t care what you say, I’m buying a gun!” So, next time, I can hope to find a dead body or two – including his – in my living room. So, what I had feared turned out to be true, my son is every bit a sociopath like his father and there is no escaping the course!


tobehappy, style1

I “thought” I was at a high point i my life when I met the P. I was in great shape, great job, independent, friends …had worked through so much family stuff, re-united with my adopted son 12 years prior to meeting the P (I had been through so much that had made me stronger, healthier) it was a time when I really felt I deserved something for me….the P was ‘delighted’ with who I was, I was love bombed and felt I was worth it….it’s just the love bombing was for other motives than love.

What creeps me out is much like what SecretMonster stated in his posts that he was attracted to a healthy, smiling happy woman who had a wealthy background, always important in case….. because IT LOOKED GOOD it was a good decoy, a good FRONT…it would help his credibility factor, people trust people who are ‘in a relationship’ and this woman would boost his believability so he coud manipulate more from the situation…but he felt no affection, no warm fuzzy feelings at all, it was just a status symbol he mimed to, fooled using mimicry- she didnt know this of course…and that’s what totally disturbs me….he was on here, chatting about her like she was “a cup of tea!!!!” He truly did not care, and this is so perplexing to me, it actually terrifies me that there are people like that, with his level of articulation…out there hurting, damaging without remorse….it’s like it hits only when the mask slips and the lie unfolds….

Quantum Solace

My God, Yes you describe it here, exactely what is so disturbing. You helped him, he availed of your help…he didnt thank you, in fact it looks like he felt nothing only entitled to the help to smooth his way.


This has nothing to do with low self esteem well not nothing…it could be and also it could be THE CAUSE of low self esteem, this is about a person exploiting his way through life without a conscience!! He would do it to someone with low self esteem, high self esteem, as long as they have a pulse he will be exploiting it….you would think low self esteem would be easy prey….not nessecarily…because they do not operate from any sense of what is right or wrong (only to “look” like everyone else) someone who was “easier to fool” might not be the best “challenge” for a P’s need for excitement and intrigue…much better job satisfaction to fool a high self esteem brain surgeon…

Buffalo Soldier

I’ve noticed from my experiences that this kind of violence should not be taken lightly at all, all sociopaths are extremely dangerous at all times.


My sociopath/psychopath husband always had to be the dominant figure and spent most of our relationship THREATENING the violence he would inflict upon me. And, I always thought if I just stayed with him, i’d always be safe. Boy, was I wrong. Those threats became a reality on Feb 14, 2009 when he STABBED me 11 times in front of our kids. Many things I never knew about him I learned over this past year, and I have read Dr. Hare’s book which describes my husband to a “T”……I am THANKFUL for what happened to be because I know i’d still be stuck in this relationship if it hadn’t. Now, he’s in prison where he belongs, and my children and I, at least for now, are safe.

People like my husband (who still won’t divorce me, nice, huh…that’s ok, I have only until Feb to wait, he’ll be in jail FAR LONGER than that) DO NOT CARE about anything or anyone but themselves, and ALL OF THEIR ACTIONS whatever they are are for their own self benefit. They will never be sorry for anything they’ve done and they will manipulate anything and anyone around them to get what they want.

If you are athe family member of a psychopath, PLEASE know the signs, you might think you are helping them but in fact you are simply a pawn in their game of manipulation and deception. My husband’s family was manipulated by him AFTER the stabbing; none of them will speak to me, somehow my being almost killed is my fault (duhhh), they bailed him out of jail after he was charged, paid all his legal expenses for a defense lawyer, etc…….all part of his sick master plan.

When there is a psychopath/sociopath in your life, EVERYONE suffers….


Bullet….I do feel that it is about “self esteem’. Not listening to your gut feeling is not trusting yourself…which is what I did.
Also, once you start seeing “signs”…to not stand up for yourself, is …to me, low self esteem.
When you have high self esteem, you protect yourself and listen to your feelings of them being “twisted”…as you said.
I just see too many people giving the other person the “benefit of the doubt” because they are afraid of rocking the boat and losing that person. Thats why I did.
Had I been as strong as I am now…noone would be able to get over on me. I would listen to my gut and run before I got deeper. Thats having “high self esteem” to me.

It doesn’t matter what you have…degrees, business and financeial success…money,….good looks…If you have high “self esteem” ….AND are wise to people…you would protect yourself better. I know I’ve changed and when I “feel” something isn’t right now….I’m gone. I don’t deserve abuse or “takers” when I am “giving” of myself.

Now, I would say, I have high self esteem.


I WIN, thank God you survived his ultimate control technique, that being the physical violence he delivered upon you. It’s true, after they master the mental manipulations in life, they naturally progress to the ultimate thrill (bigger high) of physically violating their prey. His family needs mental health assistance in unraveling the lies he entangled them with, then understanding the truth of the monster he alone created.

I’m glad you are with us.

Peace to your heart and soul as you heal mentally and physically from this brute.


Another thing…I was talking to a guy at the gym…about relaitonships and other things. He said…”Men lie.” I asked him why….he said…”Men will lie to get all the sex they want. Men want sex, women want love.” Wow!!!!

I am going to teach my girls well. NEVER believe words…and be a “biotch”. ….meaning…don’t let them get away with anything. NEVER let one move “in with you” anywhere. NEVER let them live off of you in any way.

Its so true. There are more users and manipulators out there than we know!

I hope they are stronger in their lives and smarter than I was then…


When I read this stuff, I often wonder if we are all talking about the same guy!!! So many of these stories have traits that fit my situation to a tee. Mine never became physically violent, but ran when confronted with concerns, was evasive in answering questions, etc. I have my days that I am confident and can “see the light”, then I have my days that are down and take me back to wondering. I hate it….I hate this roller coaster ride that I have been left on. Some days it was like I was a sheep following the flock, just to get led over a cliff…time and time again. It’s like mourning the death of a friend or loved one, only to see them come alive again and the process starts over and over. So much information here has helped me and I have to keep coming back when I get in those down moments. My question is, even if a sociopath such as this shows no signs of being physically harmful, are the chances of him becoming dangerous real high, say if you keep letting them suck their way into your life?



Yep, they sure do sound like the same person. Mine is also not violent, but could pass a lie detector test hands down. He talks in circles when he’s confronted and you wonder what the heck just happened. Stay vigilant, this guy doesn’t sound trustworthy and do you really want to put yourself through the turmoil again?

He may be offering you the moon, but listen closely to your intuition. I believe people are capable of changing and can change, but if there is any doubt about his sincereity, run-don’t walk. Don’t let him take pieces of you when he goes.

The more confident you get, the more you can see through to the truth. A wise therapist told me this last year.


I almost wish for something concrete so I could call the cops. Not saying that I would want my husband to be violent, but this subversive stuff is so crappy to deal with. I feel like no one takes me seriously. I feel like shouting “Can’t you see that he is LYING?”

I’m lucky my counselor can see through things, although she makes me mad when she offers that I could stay with him if I wanted to try and make it work. Are they so blind to their manipulations? She did say she won’t meet with him again, she refuses to see him.

Just feeling a little sad today, not feeling like there is a quick way out and I hate that.


Style and tobehappy,

just picking up an earlier thread from above – regarding how to tell when you’re dealing with an spath/n.

i’ve notice a few things that can test them, red flags that can tip us off – and in the process, you test your own sense of self-worth and strengthen it.

we all know from our past experiences that what feels like love can be the very opposite. many of us attract spaths and Ns because of our upbringings, that conditioned us to believe lies, and give our love away for pretty much no real love in return.

the questions I asked myself many times is how do you know when someone loves you, in a healthy way? how do you know when someone who makes you feel good is actually doing it for the right reasons?

Some of these things are just based on personal experience and may sound silly, but they helped me detect what i was dealing with.

1. watch a movie with your potential beau. pick one that makes you feel a wide range of emotions on a significant level. I like the film Rushmore, because you need empathy, and a benevolent acceptance of human weaknesses in order to ‘get it.’ Anyway, watch for a perplexed and/or disdainful look on your guy’s face throughout. Ask him questions about it after, to see if he got it. And a smart observation by another person who posted to LF a while back is that you shouldn’t show your own emotions during the film. Don’t give you potential any clues to the film’s emotional meaning. Laugh in places where things aren’t funny. If he laughs then too, you’ve probably got a live one on your hands!

2. Can he say he’s sorry when he’s wrong, can he name/identify the wrong behavior, and correct it? Will he admit to being wrong about something when you point it out to him. Many Ns will apologize when they’re in trouble, just to smooth the situation over, but none of them will admit to their actual fault (at least in my experience). they’ll apologize for something else, something closely related, but never actually the thing they did wrong and need to correct. Do the issues get more complicated, or cleared up when the N/Spath ‘apologizes’? Can he resist telling you that you’re ‘too sensitive’, or ‘misunderstanding the situation’? If he can say sorry when sorry is appropriate (and that’s where your exercise in self-worth comes in), then he’s okay. If he dances around the issue, never actually coming into contact with the issue you feel is important, then it’s a huge red flag. the beauty of this one is that you can test him on something small. Ns won’t even admit to a small infraction, the tiniest of wrongdoings. They may say ‘sorry’ to get past the uncomfortable situation, but they will never own up to whatever caused the problem.

3. Say ‘No’ to something that he wants you to do. Say it in a nice way, or a firm way, whatever you think is appropriate to the situation. Watch and see if he respects your wish/boundary, or if he plays on some emotion in you to get you to try to do whatever ‘it’ is. If you know your weakness is to feel guilty about things, for example, watch and see if he tries to exploit that. An N or Spath will have figured out what your weakness is, and will try to use it against you. The self-respect exercise that this one incorporates has to do with you setting boundaries that you know make other people uncomfortable, but still doing what’s right for you (after having gotten in touch with whatever that might be).

4. Ask him about what he loves most. He may have glib comments about loving his children or whatever, but that could just be a co-dependent thing, a sham used to maintain social legitimacy, etc., so dig deeper. Can he talk about loving someone/something that involves emotion, rather than stuff that just boils down to control, sex, power, prestige? Ask innocently and in passing, or he may catch on to you.

5. Get angry about something when it’s appropriate (again, this is a chance to exercise some self-respect, which involves being angry when you or someone else is mistreated). See how he handles it. Does he tell you that you’re wrong to feel what you feel, does he try to tell you how to feel, or does he say something that is consistent with empathy?

6. Ask him how his last relationships ended? Do you hear him saying he did something wrong, contributing to the failure? If what he says he did ‘wrong’ really only amounts to him not seeing what was wrong with the other person, you may have an N on your hands.

7. Ask him for help with something that’s important to you, when you know it will require him to make some sort of small, even very very tiny, sacrifice of what he wants. Is he willing to give a little for your sake? Make sure you’ve set up a request that will get him NOTHING that he wants in the immediate future. That said, my last potential N boyfriend wanted nothing more than to do me favors, shovel snow, buy me chocolates, clean my pots and pans. So the key, as I saw it, was to ask for something that he really didn’t want to do, that would require him to sacrifice something he didn’t want to sacrifice. In my case, it turned out that asking him to say he was sorry about something that was out of line, in order to help resolve an argument, was more than he was capable of.

8. Tell someone that you suspect of being an Spath something that causes you fear, worry, anxiety or anger (but you don’t have to give any of your ‘real’ buttons away) – see if you don’t find them at the bottom of a situation that’s been designed to upset you. A very simple example, since i”m not being so clear on this one — I told my Spath colleague at work how much I love Indian food, and how much I didn’t like the Chinese restaurant around the corner from our office. A short while later, we were interviewing someone for a new job in our department. My Spath colleague invited everyone, but me, to take the new-hire out to Indian food. And in front of everyone, so that she would still look nice, she said to me ‘our new hire loves Chinese, so I set things up so that you two could go there for lunch tomorrow.’
I’ve since learned to feed that Spath deliberately confusing information about what I like and dislike, what’s important to me and what isn’t. Though I avoid telling any lies (it’s tricky!).

I mention these as small things anyone can do to get a decent amount of information about a person. I suppose lots of people who aren’t full- blown Ns or Spaths can exhibit these behaviors out of simple immaturity and selfishness, but every time I’ve caught onto an Spath or an N in my life, these little kinds of things have helped me.

Just thought I’d share that one for fun, and would love to hear what other techniques people have used to catch on to the frauds in their lives.




Thank you. I think part of the problem is my steadfast faith in people, because as Christians, aren’t we suppose to have faith? I am a good listener and have an open mind, but I’m thinking that isnt such a good thing to have in a deal like this either. I think I just need to find the power and strength, if he contacts me again, to say “NO” and not believe him AND make that belief stick. Right now it just seems odd to have to think that way.


Just a quick note – grief and general sadness are natural in this process. at some stage, there will come a day when you realize you care less and less what other people realize, and more and more about what YOU know, what YOU understand. A hard part of that is when the people in your life, who are used to you caring too much what they think, looking to them for validation, realize that you care more about what you understand than what they understand, well, they may end up disliking you a LOT for it. I’ve had to ‘divorce’ myself from many former ‘friends’ who only liked me because of my insecurities. They liked that I used to look for them for validation of my own feelings and realization. Getting the things that matter to me out of the hands of people who liked me to be weak and exploitable was important in this process. I had to give up some things as pure losses, just to divorce myself from some of the people who were abusing me (and they were no small losses, they were things I had invested more than 10 years of round-the-clock work in). What can I say, I was so distracted by doing my work that I didn’t notice how evil people were embedding themselves in my life?

Anyway, not sure that applies to you, I’ve only seen your one post. Hope it helps. Glad you have a counselor who gets it!!! That’s really something.



oops, sorry Hopeforjoy, i spoke too soon. if your counselor is telling you to stay with him, she really doesn’t get it. yikes. maybe she’s just saying it to help you see that there’s no real option there, in an indirect way, but that’s dangerous. – Psyche


Oh, yeah, also, I was also always left wondering what happened and I was either ignored or the question was evaded when I would ask. Must be part of their plan…but to do it with no guilt or remorse is just baffling.


I think its really simple. You ask yourself if you are happy and fulfilled by the relationship with this man. If the answer is no, then you have to decide what YOU are going to do about it.

Continuing as you are is one option. But only one.

Its up to you.

It really doesn’t matter if you can get a diagnosis. If they really are a SPATH, chances are they are going to end up in jail anyway and the diagnosis will be done there.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to decide what makes your life the kind where you get up everyday and get out of bed happy to have your feet on the ground. Only you can make it so.

There is no magic answer or insight. YOU have to make decisions and follow through. Until and unless you do, not even Providence can move forward with you.

The man who doesn’t sleep here anymore was the most romantic, sensitive, caring, apologetic, interesting, charming person in the world except that he was lying, legally married and dating as well as a fugitive and is now serving Federal time as a repeat offender.

If somebody is going to fool you, they can for a while, but not long term and when you realize what is true- then what?

Its your life, your call, your move.
When YOU know, you must decide.


I know some people have recommended having compassion for Spaths, and while I don’t agree with that per se, what about having compassion for yourself? God gave you wonderful gifts, to become who you are supposed to be in this life. If you throw your ‘pearls to the swine’ (by pearls, I mean your finest qualities, including empathy and love) to your Spath/N, to abuse however he wants, aren’t you just mistreating the gifts God gave you? Aren’t you lacking compassion for yourself if you allow yourself to stay with an abuser? How can an Spath heal if you keep putting yourself up for abuse. That actually makes his bad patterns stronger, and what’s good in you weaker. These are just rhetorical questions, and I don’t mean anything personal by them since I don’t really know your situation.

If you have faith, and I am a person of faith too, could you agree that the only person who can choose to heal and improve your Spath is your Spath himself? The state of his soul is between him and God. If you allow him to mistreat you, you allow him to keep compromising his own soul.
The state of your soul, your life, your God-given treasures are fundamentally your responsibility. To really make something beautiful of your life, you can align yourself with people who have respect for you, and your soul, as well as for their own souls.

Anyway, there’s that as a btw. Got to run.

Take care,



Your list is enlightening. I notice he parrots comments I make about movies, if I keep them to myself and watch his reaction to sad moments, etc. I might be surprised. He doesn’t flinch when there is violence or torture, (like on 24, I cover my eyes when Jack starts torturing), and he can watch movies like Apcolypto (Mayan beheading in it) and not flinch.
Movies like Titanic are so sad, never see him get sad, our 14 year old son won’t watch it again because he feels so bad about the people that died. This is a really interesting point, I’ll be more observant.

Your second point, he didn’t apoligize to me for 16 years, everything was my fault. Now he is saying sorry for everything because he doesn’t want me to divorce him. He loves the idea of the perfect family. Maybe he doesn’t want to lose custody of our daughter. She will not stay with him ever.

Third point, he has been breaching my boundaries all week. I tell him that I need space and back off and he won’t. “I just want a hug”. He keeps wanting to stare in my eyes, I see disordered eyes staring back at me.

He would say he loves his family the most, but I believe it’s really his reputation. His ex-wife apparently wanted a new coat when his dad was dying of cancer, he couldn’t afford to come home and visit him because she bought the coat. He also said she had an affair. I no longer believe any of it!!

Thanks for all the tips, the one about movies I’ll try soon.


They have no guilt or remorse. This is a sign that all is not right with him. Hold your head up high!!! There are better men out there who deserve your faith, ability to listen and empathy. They may be harder to find (now that we’ve been touched by spathies we can weed them out), but they are out there. I look at my son’s group of friends, really good kids. Not all of them are untrustworthy or will try and manipulate you. Hang in there!!!! Blessings.


I totally agree with you that not even Providence can move with you if you aren’t moving forward yourself. Trying to reconstruct the past, and make it all better (when we’re dealing with Spath and Ns) is like trying to ‘fix’ the relations we may have had with our parents. A natural desire, a very honest desire – but it doesn’t work, because you aren’t dealing with natural, honest people when you’re dealing with the disordered.

When God has given me a hand, at least when I recognize it most clearly, it’s when I’ve been trying to escape my abusers, and when I’ve tried to build things in new and positive directions. No, I don’t always attract good people to me now that I want to, but a few have shown up in my life, and I’m so grateful for true goodness, wherever I can find it these days.




I hear you on the self esteem thing and thank you, it’s making sense, keep drilling it home because I am totally DISTURBED this week about the P and reading those SecretMonster posts from 2008

He ACTED his way into my heart. He said things I always dreamed my “soulmate” would say….does that make me low self esteem? I wanted to go for happiness, and everything he stood for beamed happy, healthy handsome and he LOVED ME.

High self esteem does not equip you to “read” or “predict” a cunning psychopath…that’s all I am saying. I guess ~i am saying loud and clear it is NOTHING TO DO WITH US, it is the level to which you can have faith in the unknown (which is what love is) only to have a cunning clever highly motivated psychopath “working you” ….NO ONE has a chance….people are murdered daily…nothing to do with self esteem…just they happened to be in the wrong place wrong time…

you have higher self esteem now and I congratulate you on that, it’s wonderful that you can meet new people and have such confidence. I am still hiding away, I just cant take the chance again (it would kill me) I do not know who to trust, even on this site I feel distrustful and wary, I feel my self esteem was toppled by the lie I was spun. The money I have lost and the humanity I relied on, in an act of faith thich I called “love” I was visciously lied to, robbed, cheated on and then dumped



Good list.. and eye opening.. my last one fit into most all of it..
He was Mr. perfect, helping me and helping me put my house together and I thought what a helpful guy.. but then.. he was setting me up so that I felt he was the guy to lean on and he was setting me up to move in with me… he was months behind on the rent on the big house he was renting.. I didn’t find that out until he had moved in.

It crushed me..and he was oh, so sorry.. but never seemed to really understand the implications to me..

I asked why didn’t you move out of that place into a smaller one.. no answer. but too busy.. well, he wasn’t too busy to move in with me.. of course, I helped with his garage sell and everything else..

I told him I would’ve felt more loved if he had just rented a small apt and we dated for awhile.. his response, I would’ve moved back to Fla..

See never answered or acknowledged that his positioning to move in with me and his intense love then fidning out he was about to be evicted made me feel used..

We stayed together a year.. because he was only here on the weekends.. and we had fun pretty much on the weekends.. had he been here all the time, it wouldn’t have lasted but a month.

He had a lovely home, a gourmet cook.. and he did take me out lots but I felt used the whole time.. no matter how ‘helpful’ he was..

then when he was here alone.. and say I was working out.. I would get this creepy feeling.. like what is that man doing in my house.. it was all too fast and all too to contrived.. he contrived it for his purposes.. his mother was sick and died during this time.. it was too much going on.. I got caught in the spin.. man, can these people keep it spinning..


also, I love to watch Will and Grace before going to bed.. and will laugh out loud.

The first one that we watched.. he didn’t even ‘get’ it.. he was judging the Grace character instead of just enjoying the humor..


I respectfully disagree with this idea of “testing” people to see if they are authentic.

I don’t believe in “testing” people.
As far as I am concerned, anyone who is “testing” people to see if they are authentic needs to do more work on themselves.

What it tells me is that there is an inability to trust one’s own gut instincts.

Any healthy person who finds out they are being “tested” in a potential relationship situation is going to RUN (not walk) away from you so fast your head will spin.
You will never have a healthy relationship in your life…ever.

All you need to do is watch for the red flags that are explained on this site, establish firm boundaries, know who you are, and trust your own gut instincts.

You don’t need to play games to find out the truth about someone.

That’s the beautiful thing about life….the truth has a way of revealing itself on its own!



I just wanted to repeat a saying i once heard ‘prey attracts the predator.’

I think people who have naturally high self esteem tend not to fall into the traps of a predator Spath – they have too strong a social network around them, and too strong a sense for their own boundaries and desires to be taken in by the subtle tricks that the Spaths play to lure us in. still, i think you’re right in that I see decent with strong self-esteem people being tricked and duped all the time by my former Spaths, just not to the degree that I was (I gave a LOT more than most people with strong self-esteem do, which is why the Spaths ‘loved’ me so much. Ew.)

i think we can love ourselves,but not know how to, and then that way, attract predators. i mean, i always thought I cared for myself, but i was amazed to see, in hindsight, how little i expected from any Spath/N in return for all that i gave. I would apologize for not giving them enough, they way they wanted things, etc. because it was all tied into my idea of myself as a ‘good person, who sacrifices her own needs for others.’ i was raised to be a ‘pleaser’ at all costs to myself. so i did have self respect, but for me, at least, it was for the idea I had about who i was. a person who was willing to suffer for the good of others. now, from where i sit, i would not call that self-esteem at all. there are times when suffering for others is okay, but as a way of life, no way.

anyway, bulletproof, from your post I suspect that you’re going to need time to heal. you’ll trust again when you’re ready and prepared to. not trusting is a form of protection that you probably need right now, as you get your bearings. it takes a lot of time, and patience with your own feelings. feelings pass, but for me, at least, i found that accepting my own right to have them helped ground me, after being worked by a number of Spaths and Ns, and having my life and spirit ripped to shreds.

you have every reason to feel wary and distrustful after all that you’ve experienced.

Wishing you the best,


Hi Rosa,
thanks for disagreeing. I can see why a person might not want to test another. but can you explain for me what you think is ‘bad’ about it? is it that they seem manipulative to you?

for me, the tests clarified situations that i needed to understand better, to avoid further involvements with disordered people. for me, they were good things, that saved me from another round of abuse.




For me, it’s completely unnecessary and counter-productive to resort to those types of tactics.

Do you not trust your own gut instincts when meeting someone?

Like I said, if you pull those “small exercises” that you mentioned in your 2:19 p.m. post on a healthy person, you will never have a healthy relationship in your life….ever.
Because a healthy person will not tolerate being tested in that manner.

To be completely honest, when I read your list of “tips” in the 2:19 p.m. post, I thought to myself, “Either this person has no ability to trust their own gut instincts, or this is an exercise on how sociopaths size up their dupes (inverted version for empaths).”

It’s insidious to use these types of tactics on someone, unbeknownst to the person.
For me, that’s a huge red flag.

If you are having doubts about someone’s character, I would advise putting a healthy distance between yourself and that person, as opposed to engaging in insidious mind games.


I don’t think that it as to be say a ‘planned’ test.. it is gut..

the first disagreement and how it is handled.. not going along all the time with what they want just to be nice.. that is all apart of compromise.. and what a relationship is..
I recall mine using every tactic to get me to do things that I was not wanting to do.. when I had had enough.. needed time to myself or wasn’t in the mood to help him clean up his old house and pack.. after I had just moved myself and had helped him do a garage sale.. I mean couldn’t the man be alone and do his won stuff..
I stayed home one day.. and he pouted.. not bad.. but it grossed me out.. I was exhausted after all I had done.. when was I important… I started seeing he wanted to control it all..


Bullet…I will give you an example. I recently met a guy SO much like my x…he even used the same “lines”. It was creepy. He texted me all day long….its uncanny. He was just like him. Only, this time, because my “standards” are higher..and I don’t feel that I NEED a man in my life…I immediately told him….”I feel very disrespected by that comment.” He turned it on me saying that I was “ms. Prissy” and I ended it all….told him “this isn’t working for me, take care.” Of course he continued to contact me. I ignored him.

ONLY>>>THIS TIME…..I KNOW who I am….my standards of letting people into my world are MUCH HIGHER. No room for disordered people. They only end up taking and not giving…and then using you. (ie..moving in with you..etc.)

NEVER will I allow a man to move in with ME. He MUST have his own place and be settled…as I am…Period, the end. If anything, he should be inviting ME to move in with him…rentfree! lol

Because I LOVE who I am, TRUST in my instincts, DEMAND respect 100%, … shows that I have HIGH self esteem. Just because you are “feeling happy” doesn’t mean you are there.
Self esteem doesn’t stay the same in your life. It changes. My therapist taught me that. Mine was much higher at times…but when I met my xhusb and xbf….both times I was lonely, and feeling “fat” (even at 120lbs! lol) and that “noone would want me”.

So, when you feel CONFIDENT enough to be a “biotch” and feel that you are fine on your own….THATS when you find the right person. Not just because “things are going good” and you are happy.

Anyway, thats my take. I can smell a selfish manipulative person miles away….and I don’t want any part of them! Its MY turn to be treated properly and loved and cared about.

If you don’t adore me for who I am and treat me right…you’re not invited into my world.

THATS high self esteem…

Ox Drover

Dear Heartsick,

As A person of Christian faith, I NOW see the Bible as a way to direct our behavior and thinking for a GOOD LIFE, but not in a way to make us door mats.

Fake Christians use the “turn the other cheek” routine, “so that I can hit you and you will take it”

Or the “women be in subservience jto your husbands” and they add “no matterf what the creep does to you.”

In fact, Jesus himself tells us to Know a “tree by its fruit.” In other words, use our good sense to look at what a person DOES to see what kind of person they are.

The apostle Paul tells us if we have “problems” with a brother (fellow christian) to talk to them, if they won’t listen, get witnesses, if that doesn’t work, go to the church with your concerns about this person’s behavior. THEN if they don’t correct ther problems then do not associate with them, not “even to eat with them.” That is a perfect description of NOCONTACT.

Justifiable anger is okay, Jesus was angry at injustice and wrong. He did say though to not let the sun go down uipon our wrath, which is bitter anger and vengeful anger, and that’s good advice for us.

Who ever started the UNTRUE rumor that Jesus is/was a WIMP is off base. Paul tells us to put on the entire armor of God, that’s what a soldier wears. We are not to “pick fights,” but we don’t have to bare our breasts and say “stab me” either.


Phyche and Rosa,

I think that Phyche is right on in that being ‘mindful’ of things that are fishy, or unacceptable to you, things you can apply to what’s happening NOW from what you have LEARNED (and yes maybe make a mental list) IS GOOD!

I think its a great ‘food for thought’ flag spotting list.

I think that some of us are further along the road than others maybe… trusting MYSELF and my instincts? … for all my blather I dont think I am completely there YET. I am doing better. So a ‘mindful’ list is good in a lot of ways…. not a ‘test per se…

But Rosa is right in that when you are at the point where you no longer have to re-learn stamped out ability to listen to your instincts or even learn to listen to them for the first time, game playing should not even be part of the equasion.

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