LoveFraud reader buzzibee raises some important issues in a recent comment.
How does a tested and proven psychopath usually respond to being told “You have a mental disorder. You are characteristically a psychopath”?
Are [they] so arrogant to dispute a medical diagnosis that they have a mental disorder? Do they display any desire to learn more about the disorder and at any point admit to it?
In order to be diagnosed as a psychopath, a person needs a score of 30 out of a possible 40 on the Psychotherapy Checklist-Revised test (PCL-R). This is a very time-consuming test which only trained personnel can administer, so by and large only prisoners and research subjects are likely to have it.
Psychopaths don’t see themselves as having a problem and so wouldn’t present themselves for testing anyway. Unless they thought they might benefit from the diagnosis in some way. So that’s point number one: psychopaths are unlikely to receive the diagnosis unless they are incarcerated, and probably not even then.
Point number two is that those who do get the diagnosis respond like psychopaths; in other words they use it as yet another tool to manipulate others. Here’s a quote from a December, 13 ‘Nature’ article on research scanning the brains of psychopaths in order to better understand empathy:
All the subjects seem to find the experiment to be nonsense. “It was stupid, boring,” says inmate Willem Boerema (not his real name), who claims to have taken part only because he likes Meffert [the young female researcher]. Then, contradicting himself, he adds that “if they say the study can help people then it’s good”.
Boerema, smart, articulate and multilingual, has a PCL-R rating of 35 and a big problem with the term ‘psychopath’. He views it as a fashionable label abused by the judicial system to keep people like himself from being released. “The courts look at your PCL-R rating and add two years to your sentence, then another two years, and then another.”
When he entered the prison five years ago, Boerema says, ‘borderline personality’ was the fashionable term, and his designated pigeon-hole. “The psychopathy label is more damaging though it prompts everyone to see you as a potential serial killer, which I could never be.” (Note, in reporting this article it was agreed that inmates’ crimes would be neither asked about nor reported on.) But Boerema also wears the score as a badge of honour: “I think my high psychopath score is a talent, not a sickness I can make good strong decisions, and it’s good to have some distance with people.”
I’m reminded of Freud’s comments on the following “piece of sophistry”:
A. borrowed a copper kettle from B. and after he had returned it was sued by B. because the kettle now had a big hole in it which made it unusable. His defence was: “First, I never borrowed a kettle from B. at all; secondly, the kettle had a hole in it already when I got it from him; and thirdly, I gave him back the kettle undamaged”….We might…say: “A. has put an ‘and’ where only “either-or” is possible.”
‘Boerema’s litany is classic. It’s ‘nonsense’, ‘stupid’, ‘boring’. I’m going along because I like the doctor, I want to help people. It’s ‘fashionable’, ‘damaging’, labeling, used as an excuse to keep him in prison. It’s a badge of honour, a talent. It’s not a sickness… In short, there is no such thing as psychopathy, but to the extent that it’s true, it’s a good thing.
Just two other uses to which the diagnosis might be put are: as a threat, and to elicit pity.
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There’s never anything wrong with the psychopath. This is perhaps the main reason why therapy doesn’t work with them – they have no motivation to change. But that’s a topic for another day!
Secret Monster: Do you dream? (Just wondering, based on something I read in Dr Steve’s blog). My ex used to (I can see in retrospect) try to manipulate me by analysing my dreams (he knew his Freud in the way they all are experts on everything, from pamphlets and study guides). His dreams now seem to me made up and another device to manipulate.
Secret Monster – Just curious, what does “far away girl” have to offer that your wife doesn’t? Or is it just the lure of newness that draws you? I’ve sensed that from my sociopath. I’m sure he thought his wife was a good fit until he met me, I’m a better target. But there’s always a better one, or just different but equally good, that needs to be found – right? I guess I’m still trying to figure it all out…still in the obsession phase!
Oh, and “check mark” for the intense eyes (with moments of blank creepiness), tattoos and average looks. Very into his appearance/clothes, though…and mine. Thought he was just narcissistic (not that it’s much better on its own) until all the lies and predatory stuff came out when I found out he was married!
Yep, put me down for: he used to relate dreams he supposedly had about me that sounded totally made up.
I keep getting flipped out by how similar all these men seem to be.
No tattoos, this one, though, but ditto, average looks.
Secret Monster: When you refer to your blog, do you mean to say you have a blog page on line somewhere? Could you tell me, what’s the URL?
Beverly: I don’t want kids because it’s too messy. So yes, commitment is part of it. People who have kids need to do the right thing for their kids, I’m not sure I’m capable of that. I’ve always been protective of children, not really sure why that’s stuck in my head. Part of that protection is to keep them out of my life I guess. Ha! Or that could be a very self serving way of explaining why I don’t want to have kids, even to myself. That’s the tricky thing about being in my head, sometimes I have to question my own internal justifications for BS. Okay, maybe a little more then sometimes.
I don’t know what to tell you about the intuitive thing. She considers me a very affectionate and loving person. I’m really good at this. I wear my masks well and work hard at making sure no cracks appear. Don’t get me wrong, we have our occasional issue, but half the time that is engineered as well. People don’t trust perfection. Perfection isn’t true. So I get caught on purpose in small stupid fibs, the kinds that normal guys would tell, and will tell the truth about things that will piss her off just so she knows that I’ll be honest “even when it will hurt her”. Take the heat for the small stuff so you can get away with the big.
EnnLondon: Yes, I dream occasionally. I actually think dream analysis is a load of crap in general, my wife is quite fond of it. Never thought about pretending I knew something about it to manipulate, clever. I have, however, completely skewed “psychics” results into my favor when a girl I’m interested in goes to a psychic for whatever reason “Oh, that clearly means so and so, that’s brilliant, she’s really good!”. The way I look at it, that’s a tax for them being stupid enough to go to a psychic in the first place.
Dorkgirl: She’s new and chaotic. She’s almost as broken as me, which has a certain charm to it. There is history there too, which is important. She was a central figure at a very interesting time of my life so I likely assign some value to her due to that.
Blog – Isn’t my name the link? Well, since it was posted already this thread, I don’t mind reposting it.
http://brokeninme.blogspot.com
I haven’t written much in it this year because I’ve been busy writing here!
Also, no tattoos but I pay attention to what I wear. I think some of my power comes from how unassuming I look. People never see me coming. It seems there is a perception that good looking men are players anyway.
I think I have pretty eyes!! I just gotta be careful not to bore holes in people…. but they are pretty, I assure you! 😉
SecretMonster
Lesley— you said: “Here is a question for people: have you tried getting involved with other men since? Its been three months and Ive started dating; I think if I dont lll lose my mind. Its so weird, though: because my ex S was mimicking the perfect man, because he, like Beverlys guy, remained calm cool and patient at all times, these men Im meeting all seem flawed by comparison. I have to keep telling myself: thats because theyre HUMAN.”
I tried to date someone a bit in between on of the breakups – I think mostly so I would know the breakup would stick and I meant it! That guy turned out to be a liar and a cheat too.. not a Sociopath but 2 months with him didnt take long to figure out his game. Now I know I’m not ready to date yet.. I want to be empty of as much clutter remaining in my head as possible. I try to envision dating someone or even meeting someone I’d have interest in. I’m not a material person by no means but when the going was good with my Sociopath we had so much darn fun! It was so comforatable, we enjoy cooking together, music, laying in bed all day renting movies, getting into the local sports, and on and on.. many routine things that became “our things” that “we do”…. And his sociopathic side that was trying to cover up the lies and woman – he insisted on paying for everything, treating me like a princess, doing favors, fixing things in my house, mowing my lawn now and then, buying the groceries, the weekends away… I was not allowed to spend a dime. Now and then, because I always tried.. he’d “give me my way” as he put it. That was control too, because it was If and When he allowed it… I got to actually pay for a little something. I felt awkward having him pay always… Its nice but to a point. Beyond that you felt bought and it felt like trickery to me.
Back to your question…How do you find a man so cool, giving, patient, so suave and caring, you can relax and be yourself, enjoy time together doing nothing or doing one of the things we so enjoyed. Sex was great.. (is this a common trait???) … what man can live up to Mr. Perfect? Mr. Perfect with a closet full of lies.. but nevertheless – the emotional control they have on you makes you wonder if anyone will make you feel the Up’s you felt with him. I say the same as you, to myself.. then next guy must be HUMAN. With flaws, inadequacies and quirks.. but normal one and ones you can trust to be everything they appear.
I just need to get over the resentment that mr perfect walks away from this unscathed… content calm and cool as always. I want him to hurt somehow… but never would it be to the depth their betrayal makes us hurt.
Lesley— you asked about dating others…
I tried to date someone a bit in between on of the breakups – I think mostly so I would know the breakup would stick and I meant it! That guy turned out to be a liar and a cheat too.. not a Sociopath but 2 months with him didnt take long to figure out his game. Now I know I’m not ready to date yet.. I want to be empty of as much clutter remaining in my head as possible. I try to envision dating someone or even meeting someone I’d have interest in. I’m not a material person by no means but when the going was good with my Sociopath we had so much darn fun! It was so comforatable, we enjoy cooking together, music, laying in bed all day renting movies, getting into the local sports, and on and on.. many routine things that became “our things” that “we do”…. And his sociopathic side that was trying to cover up the lies and woman – he insisted on paying for everything, treating me like a princess, doing favors, fixing things in my house, mowing my lawn now and then, buying the groceries, the weekends away… I was not allowed to spend a dime. Now and then, because I always tried.. he’d “give me my way” as he put it. That was control too, because it was If and When he allowed it… I got to actually pay for a little something. I felt awkward having him pay always… Its nice but to a point. Beyond that you felt bought and it felt like trickery to me.
Back to your question…How do you find a man so cool, giving, patient, so suave and caring, you can relax and be yourself, enjoy time together doing nothing or doing one of the things we so enjoyed. Sex was great.. (is this a common trait???) … what man can live up to Mr. Perfect? Mr. Perfect with a closet full of lies.. but nevertheless – the emotional control they have on you makes you wonder if anyone will make you feel the Up’s you felt with him. I say the same as you, to myself.. then next guy must be HUMAN. With flaws, inadequacies and quirks.. but normal one and ones you can trust to be everything they appear.
I just need to get over the resentment that mr perfect walks away from this unscathed… content calm and cool as always. I want him to hurt somehow… but never would it be to the depth their betrayal makes us hurt.
“I want him to hurt somehow” ”
If you had a dog who after a few months ends up biting you severely and being uncontrollable – do you want the dog to feel bad? Or do you just want to get rid of the dog? Remember who you’re talking about here. We don’t feel the same way you do.
SecretMonster
Im a big book person. A book I have learned alot from and is very much about narcissistic committment conflict and all the behaviour that goes with it and my behaviour as a codependant – is an American book ‘He’s Scared She’s Scared’ by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol published by Dell. There are some good notes on recovery at the end and how to make sure you keep disconnected. Also how you get closure if your partner disappears – does a houdini act into someone elses arms and what this all means.
to secret monster, i feel sorry for you it sounds terrible what you go through trying to fit in and be normal but it does not excuse hurting anyone emotionally ie cheating. maybe your on the wrong web site. what are looking for here. research for your next victim. some of the things you say are a little disturbing to say the least to me a person trying to recover from a sociopath relationship. from what all the doctors say here sociopaths are disabled the brains dont work properly so they cant act or behave the same way others do. i think we all need to stop expecting them to and accept they are disabled like any other person with any other disability, trying to fit into society maybe then we will stop trying to understand what they do. however you describing your urges and impulses did shed some light for me in how my sociopath and others must feel. but how would you like to be used or cheated on put your self in the other persons the victims shoes if you can that is. do you really think this is the place to talk about your cheating and the games you play and so on. we are trying to get away from that thats why we are here we are trying to heal. try and understand how you are making others on this site feel. if you can. just think about what you write and how it may affect others on this site. what do you really want from writing on this site, you seem to understand your self and everything you do so well anyway. by the way i dont mean to have a go at you here i am saying this with good intentions and just so you know some of the things you write on here are a little insensitive to some of us here. to say the least.
SecretMonster: I for one, love to hear points of view from a sociopath. So, you’re not offending me at all. After all, I dont know you, nor you I, so what’s the harm?
I just wonder if the sociopath I dealt with is aware that he is one? I mean really. Do people like you know what they are? and why the are different, i.e, no conscience or empathy?