LoveFraud reader buzzibee raises some important issues in a recent comment.
How does a tested and proven psychopath usually respond to being told “You have a mental disorder. You are characteristically a psychopath”?
Are [they] so arrogant to dispute a medical diagnosis that they have a mental disorder? Do they display any desire to learn more about the disorder and at any point admit to it?
In order to be diagnosed as a psychopath, a person needs a score of 30 out of a possible 40 on the Psychotherapy Checklist-Revised test (PCL-R). This is a very time-consuming test which only trained personnel can administer, so by and large only prisoners and research subjects are likely to have it.
Psychopaths don’t see themselves as having a problem and so wouldn’t present themselves for testing anyway. Unless they thought they might benefit from the diagnosis in some way. So that’s point number one: psychopaths are unlikely to receive the diagnosis unless they are incarcerated, and probably not even then.
Point number two is that those who do get the diagnosis respond like psychopaths; in other words they use it as yet another tool to manipulate others. Here’s a quote from a December, 13 ‘Nature’ article on research scanning the brains of psychopaths in order to better understand empathy:
All the subjects seem to find the experiment to be nonsense. “It was stupid, boring,” says inmate Willem Boerema (not his real name), who claims to have taken part only because he likes Meffert [the young female researcher]. Then, contradicting himself, he adds that “if they say the study can help people then it’s good”.
Boerema, smart, articulate and multilingual, has a PCL-R rating of 35 and a big problem with the term ‘psychopath’. He views it as a fashionable label abused by the judicial system to keep people like himself from being released. “The courts look at your PCL-R rating and add two years to your sentence, then another two years, and then another.”
When he entered the prison five years ago, Boerema says, ‘borderline personality’ was the fashionable term, and his designated pigeon-hole. “The psychopathy label is more damaging though it prompts everyone to see you as a potential serial killer, which I could never be.” (Note, in reporting this article it was agreed that inmates’ crimes would be neither asked about nor reported on.) But Boerema also wears the score as a badge of honour: “I think my high psychopath score is a talent, not a sickness I can make good strong decisions, and it’s good to have some distance with people.”
I’m reminded of Freud’s comments on the following “piece of sophistry”:
A. borrowed a copper kettle from B. and after he had returned it was sued by B. because the kettle now had a big hole in it which made it unusable. His defence was: “First, I never borrowed a kettle from B. at all; secondly, the kettle had a hole in it already when I got it from him; and thirdly, I gave him back the kettle undamaged”….We might…say: “A. has put an ‘and’ where only “either-or” is possible.”
‘Boerema’s litany is classic. It’s ‘nonsense’, ‘stupid’, ‘boring’. I’m going along because I like the doctor, I want to help people. It’s ‘fashionable’, ‘damaging’, labeling, used as an excuse to keep him in prison. It’s a badge of honour, a talent. It’s not a sickness… In short, there is no such thing as psychopathy, but to the extent that it’s true, it’s a good thing.
Just two other uses to which the diagnosis might be put are: as a threat, and to elicit pity.
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There’s never anything wrong with the psychopath. This is perhaps the main reason why therapy doesn’t work with them – they have no motivation to change. But that’s a topic for another day!
Dr., I should probably reply in private to keep the length of this comment manageable. But here goes!
I’m not sure, to be honest. I have no basis for what your definition of affection is really like. My value of the people around me is based upon intellectual appraisal. I have people in my life that are more valuable to me than others. I don’t mean to say this to sound ominous or cold – This could be very close to what you’re talking about. Is it really so different? Doesn’t everyone try to keep those people out of their lives that cause them harm, or who aren’t a positive force in their life?
For instance, I have a specific friend who is like me in action, but completely different in motive. It’s the closest thing I’ve ever had to an open relationship with anyone. I would go out of my way to keep him as a friend. I find his friendship ultimately rewarding. Not monetarily or in any physical parasitic way. In fact, if you were to really look at the entirety of the relationship, I’ve undoubtedly bought more rounds than he has.
He is very important to me. I daresay, more important to me than anyone.
I’m involved in a conversation with someone at the moment who asked what my relationship with my mother was like. I found myself not really able to answer. I don’t really know? I want to say things like “She’s the only one who knows me for who I am.” and “She’s the only person I’ve ever loved.” or something else appropriately dramatic, but the truth is… well, the truth is I suffer her. That should say something, I suppose. I don’t typically suffer fools.
I’ve seen first hand countless times where women, specifically, seem to assign an intrinsic value to someone, when logically, none of it adds up. This is the only thing I can really interpret as emotional affection: When your attraction or attachment to someone is a purely emotional appraisal, devoid of reason.
Love is blind, and impervious to reason? Isn’t that what they say? This is the saying of a true sociopath, manipulating a world of young pop culture romantics. Never has a phrase allowed so much human suffering. People stay in relationships for, god knows what, because love is blind and they can’t choose who they love, and there is value there! Intrinsic value, without a name, or a sum, or a face, or even a definition! Sure, good one. Wish I thought of that.
I think the ticket is to have equilibrium between an emotional and intellectual appraisal of a person to by in sync.
You see, how I just explained that made me seem like an unemotional automaton, and that’s just not accurate. I do feel. Again, I’m not sure I’m the best person to be answering these questions as if these days especially, I don’t feel I fit the mold of a classic sociopath anymore. I’ve sort of grown out of it.
With that said – Sex is a peculiar area with me. I won’t get into the details here, in a comment, but I will say what I get out of sex has nothing to do with intimacy. The closest thing I can think of is… well, triumph, success, and power. Women who are promiscuous rarely hold any attraction to me. I appreciate the women who withhold themselves for someone “special”. I like feeling special. It obviously feels good physically, as well.
As far as a day, I’ve always been fond of 4th of July. Euphoria? Hah. Yes, I believe I know what euphoria is. I feel it, occasionally.
Take this all for what you will. I’m no expert, and I even doubt I’m a sociopath anymore. I think I’m just different.
SecretMonster
For me, I find a person very stimulating who knows who they are and why they do what they do. The ones who bother me are the ones who have hidden agendas and go around using people for personal gain and really don’t want an exclusive with anyone. I’d much rather be told by someone they hate me, than to say they love me, and treat me like I’m hated. The hot/cold of men, as in my case, has left me cold.
I truly thought no man ever talked about feelings. I thought for so long, because I was sheltered raising my children, that the only real emotion men felt was anger. I made a vow to myself that if all men were like my husband and the other male members of his family, spare me ever having another man in my life. That was about the time I met a man who wanted to be my friend, and I took his bait. He saw me as a target and I’ve been nothing more than a challenge to him. He’s tried for 12 years to wear me down, but the longer he persists the more I resist. I refuse to just be another notch on his bed post and from what I hear, that’s all he wants from women. I won’t give him the satisfaction of having me. But I digress.
Maybe we put too much emphasis on feeling. Maybe the ones who don’t feel real deep keep themselves from getting attached. I’ve heard and have known couples who were so attached, when the one died, the other soon followed or fell into such a deep depression, they couldn’t be helped. I really don’t want that kind of relationship. But I think I know how to love without smothering. I know I don’t go around hurting others and messing their heads like mine has been.
For me, I’m glad you answered some thoughts that caused me to wonder. I know we are all individuals and what is euphoric to one, can be ho hum to another. That I can deal with. It’s the constant rejection and frustration dealing with one who doesn’t know what he wants but refuses to dig deep to find it, yet expects someone to fix it. But it’s good to be different in a good kind of way. I’m a loner and am very different. I’ve marched to a different beat the most of my life. I might be called a non personality, because I don’t like drama in my life. I want peace and tranquility along with harmony. Makes me sound like Suzy Sunshine. That’s why I’m such an easy target. But now that I know what I know, a moving target is much harder to hit.
WikiAnswers:
Did Freud say that the Irish are immune to psychoanalysis?
Answer
Did you resently watch the Departed? I watched that too and wondered why Matt Damon said that. I don’t know, being Irish, maybe it’s that we are to complex to analize???
What Freud said
What Freud was quoted as saying about the Irish was, “This is one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever.”
Secretmonster: Thanks for sharing your perspective.
The thing is, you say “I don’t mean this to sound ominous or cold” – so you must have some idea that it does indeed sound ominous & cold.
But do you not feel the deep aversion when someone refers to another human being as “valuable” or being “more or less valuable”?
It has a sharply negative emotional connotation that I would’ve thought obvious.
Secretmonster wrote:
**””Doesn’t everyone try to keep those people out of their lives that cause them harm, or who aren’t a positive force in their life?”**
Ideally, yes. But … I see ALL human life as equal in intrinsic “value”, whether I like them personally or not.
Whether to “keep someone around” or not is a completely different issue from that.
Of course I probably base that partly on some intellectual appraisal, in the sense that most close to me have earned my respect. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve increasingly found it unwise to be friends with, or heavily interact with, people I don’t (or can’t) respect, because it’s not good for either party involved, regardless of the reason.
But respect alone does not explain my strong long-term friendships by any stretch of the imagination. I’m sure there’s loads of people out there who I do, would, or could respect, but there’d be a dozen other things factoring into it – possibly that are incompatible with me.
Secretmonster wrote:
**””I’ve seen first hand countless times where women, specifically, seem to assign an intrinsic value to someone, when logically, none of it adds up. This is the only thing I can really interpret as emotional affection: When your attraction or attachment to someone is a purely emotional appraisal, devoid of reason.””**
Oooh, foul. I’ve seen men operate this way too. I don’t think either gender has a monopoly on this.
It is true that there are those people, women and men, who seem to operate purely on emotional chemistry when choosing people to be around, or making all sorts of decisions. But they seem to be a troubled minority.
People suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder come to mind. Which is interesting because most mental health workers agree that antisocials & borderlines seem drawn to each other like interlocking pieces in a bomb.
But from what I’ve observed, a large portion of people have a myriad of factors that go into affection & friendship.
But about those seemingly purely emotional devoid of reason people…
When I’ve taken a little time to look critically at these people who seem inexplicably drawn to someone who is destructive to them, I’ve come to understand what THEY believe the value is. Often it’s completely irrational to me – but it’s there, and it makes sense to them, because their value system is somehow different than my own..
For example, some people value “not being single” so highly they’re willing to cling to a horrid unhappy relationship out of fear of being single for any length of time, because they really feel that’s an even less happy state to be in.
And this isn’t so crazy really. Society has always put significant pressure on people to couple. In ancient Persia, if a woman died single, the family would marry her corpse off before burial!
And even if we’re not so drastic today, the messages are still there, and still very persuasive. “The night belongs to lovers”, “holidays are special when you have a special someone to share them with”…
Even the U.S. economy is based on a TWO-income household, making it difficult or even sometimes impossible, for single adults to manage anywhere near as well as their coupled counterparts.
Unless these things change, there will always be people determined to stay coupled at any cost. Those people who are unable or unwilling to suffer the social & financial pressures put on single adults. A surplus of unhappy marriages are almost assured when you view this cultural structure.
**””Love is blind, and impervious to reason? Isn’t that what they say? … People stay in relationships for, god knows what, because love is blind and they can’t choose who they love””**
To love is, to me, and most people I know, something very different than the act of loving & sharing one’s life with another. I can feel love for someone without inviting them into my life. Indeed, I can love someone while completely avoiding interaction with them, if that’s necessary for my well-being.
It’s the same with lust, or any other emotion.
I may think some celebrity is really attractive & alluring, but that doesn’t mean I have to go out & find them, and if they’re uncooperative kidnap them, & rape them.
I may really detest someone, but that doesn’t mean I will uncontrollably hunt them down to hurt them somehow.
I realize that there are a certain amount of people out there that, between impulse & action, there’s much they miss… But if any more than a small minority of people acted that way, we’d be living in complete anarchy. As it stands, most people like that wind up in jail at some point. There are plenty of people in jail, yes, but there’s far more people who actually obey most laws most of the time.
Of course this might not be obvious to everyone, depending on their situation.
Someone who has grown up in ‘gangs’ might assume criminal activity is the norm.
I’ve known people who assume everyone drinks fairly often. In reality, of course it’s not true.
In fact, I read a study a few years ago that said in the U.S., something like 10% of the population buys 95% of the alcohol.
Meaning that there are some people who drink a very lot and/or very often, while the majority of the population barely drinks much at all, ever.
Someone who’s been a bartender at their family owned pub for 20 years would most certainly be oblivious to the truth of the big picture on this topic.
Someone who has worked in the mental health profession for years might feel there’s a lot more emotional unstable people in the world than there really are.
I used to think most people had pets… And I’ve come to realize there’s loads of people who’ve never had a pet in their life.
WP: That’s interesting about the special attraction between antisocials and borderlines.
If it’s true, what is this connection based on? What needs are they meeting in each other? What are the dynamics? And, what are the true definitions of both disorders and the origins of each? Maybe one of the doctors can provide some answers.
Secret Monster
I wouldn’t count on your self-diagnosis of being “cured.” Your blog suggests otherwise.
It appears from your writing that your wife will be your next victim. I was initially saddened for her but not so, now. By orchestrating your divorce, you’ll actually be doing her a favor in the long run. I hope you’ll tell her about this site when you do. She sounds like a lovely woman, like one of us.
She’ll go through the pain you’ve read about here, of course, but then she’ll heal and grow past you. And we’ll be here to help her.
eyesopened:
Why there would be a ‘special attraction’ between sociopaths and Borderlines? I don’t really know for sure. I’m not an expert in psychology, I’m not even in that profession.
But I’ve heard about this a few times now from people who work in the mental health profession (a psychiatrist, a psychologist with a masters, & a social worker), and they say that this is something their colleagues have noted. Maybe it’s just anecdotal, but since it’s almost considered common knowledge, there must be something to it.
I’ve known several people over the years with BPD, (at least 4 definitely with the condition), I believe it 100%, because each one of them seemed to have repeated problems with people that perfectly match the description of a sociopath. In fact, that’s what led to my interest in sociopaths, having known several victims of them. I’ve never known one personally myself, I’ve just watched people I care about get mixed up with them. (Though I’ve had problems with a few people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder over the years, and in my opinion, but for a few exceptions, the results are the same as much of what’s described on this web site. I think the personalities & results are very similar.)
The only thing I found on the web about borderlines & sociopaths was credited to Dr Drew Pinsky (the radio shrink). And nobody elaborates much on the topic.
And I think that’s a pity for several reasons.
First, because of some victims of sociopaths have Borderline disorder and don’t know it, and if they found successful treatment for their disorder, it could help them prevent becoming victims again, or even in the first place if dealt with early enough.
Second, because if the reasons were pinpointed, it could explain why even people without the Borderline condition, are targets. There might be certain traits or issues in many people, Borderline or just average people, that actually attract sociopaths. And I think that information would be invaluable in helping people protect themselves and their loved ones from predators, cons, and abusers.
I think at least some of the reasons these things are not out in the open have a lot to do with the issues discussed here. The shame or self-blame that victims sometimes feel. Or that others might be accused of blaming the victim if they try to help someone protect themselves.
Some people may feel that if there’s something about someone that attracted the sociopath, then it’s their fault they were victimized by someone cruel – when of course that’s not true! Only a perpetrator is responsible for their own immoral or criminal actions. But it certainly makes sense to protect oneself from perpetrators’ immoral or criminal tendencies.
Just because a bull might be attracted to red doesn’t mean it’s inherently bad to wear red – it just means that you might not want to wear red in a bullfight ring! Or at least maybe to be careful not to go in the bullfight ring with bulls while wearing red!
But this isn’t always so clear to everyone. Borderlines are often considered the perpetrators rather than the victims, because many cause grief to those around them, because of their emotional vulnerabilities and problems.
I think this has a lot to do with the fact that people with BPD have been so victimized, it’s hard for their problems with sociopaths & other pepetrators not to spill over into other people they know.
I’m sure many average people here who’ve dealt with sociopaths would understand this on some small scale at least.
For example, if you have a sociopathic brother-in-law, it’s going to effect you, even if you’re not the main target of the sociopath, and you yourself haven’t chosen to to associate with a sociopath, you wind up with one in your life anyway, and problems because of it. And it would be difficult for you not to place some of the shoulder of blame on your sibling who married the sociopath, even though that sibling is a victim themselves.
I think as long as some people in society continue to operate with fingers of blame, in states of guilt or shame, sociopaths will always have fertile ground for their manipulations, cons, and use & abuse. And as long as sociopaths have people they can use & abuse, they will have absolutely no reason to do anything to correct their behaviour even if they have a diagnosis & know something’s not normal with them.
Why would someone who feels nothing is wrong, choose to change anything if they’re getting away with it, and getting by fine the way they’re operating? They won’t.
That’s why I think web sites like this, or books like “The Sociopath Next Door” or “The Gift of Fear” are so important. The better informed we are in society, the better we can protect ourselves from those who will harm us if they get the chance.
And I’m glad that people like Donna Andersen & ML Gallagher have chosen not to give into guilt, shame & blame nonsense that leads many to keep quiet. Because keeping quiet helps nobody but the perpetrators & cons. And it’s just another win by the sociopaths using their favored tools of shame & guilt.
Very interesting, WP. Thank you for your thoughts….and your tips on the two books. I’ll try to get them.
Happy new year to you.
happy New Year to you too.
I found one page about the topic:
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOCONNOR/428/428lect16.htm
**””Dr. Drew’s theory (and one with wide ramifications since he pretty much defines an antisocial tendency as thinking about one’s self first) is that women with certain kinds of disorders, like borderline personality disorders, tend to be attracted to and hook up with men who manifest symptoms of psychopathic personality disorder (see Lecture on BPD & OCD) and that such match-ups may or may not be dysfunctional.””**
I would say though that I don’t see how a relationship with a sociopath can be functional, because sociopaths’ brain physiology makes it impossible for them to RELATE with other people in the usual way to have normal relationships. And the idea that someone with overactive emotional responses (BPD) can have a functional relationship with someone with non-functioning higher emotions seems preposterous.
Also, the people in the profession I know have said things about BPDs & sociopaths such as “and it’s always a relationship from hell”.
Also, I see a chicken/egg issue here. From what I’ve observed, it’s not so much that people with Borderline are attracted to sociopaths, it’s that the sociopaths seem to be attracted to, and actively and vigorously pursue, people with Borderline traits/symptoms/behaviour, because for some reason, they recognize them as an easier mark.
I think people with BPD, having intense emotional responses, are more likely to be drawn in by the dramatic and overt pursuits that sociopaths use because they might mistake it for evidence that the sociopath feels as intensely and deeply as they do.
But from what I’ve seen, women I’ve known were actively pursued by the men initially, not the other way round. (Which is culturally normal I guess, for the men to do the pursuing.)
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/
I found the above link having a lot of insight into the differences between the personalities. I would never have suspected there were so many different types of people in existence. I know that sounds so naive, but I viewed others from my take on life. I had no idea that men would project the anger for their mother on their wife. I never suspected a woman would marry a man as a substitute for her father. Etc.
Many years ago when I was starting out in life, all that was talked about in the circles of my life, were the extroverted and introverted personalities. But it’s their odd response to situations that draw attention. I’ve been a watcher of people since I can remember anything. I’ve watched how people do life and did comparisons. I really haven’t found anyone I want to emulate, other than Jesus Christ. I’ve wanted to love in that unconditional way. That is what got me into trouble. Not as far as my children are concerned, but the man I married, then the man who became my friend, at his insistence. I have questioned their perception of me throughout the course of the relationship.
Now through this site, and the others recommended, I have answers. It now explains the why. I no longer blame myself for not being what they wanted. I jumped through hoops trying to please another. What utter garbage! No one should have to do that. I don’t expect someone to do that for me. Since I’ve been enlightened, I’ve lost a lot of my obsessive compulsiveness, that drove me nuts. Mine was just about straightening rugs, pictures, hems, etc. My husband slammed me one day and said I thought I was perfect. No. I thought he thought he was, and I wasn’t good enough, so I needed to perfect my skills to earn his love. Talk about a messed up way of thinking. Love isn’t earned. It’s a choice.
These blogs have helped to show me that we who want to love, end up with ones who don’t know how to love, so we exhaust ourselves trying to prove our love when we shouldn’t have to do that. I show my love by what I do, but in my case nothing I did made a difference. No wonder my head and heart took such a beating. I’m not totally healed, but my thinking has quieted and my heart doesn’t hurt as badly. I no longer carry around a load of guilt for the lack in someone else. It really isn’t my fault that he has convoluted thinking and can’t receive what I have to offer. I literally wore myself out trying to please someone who just wanted to be mothered. Done!
I found myself being the man and woman, mother/father, etc. I was trying to pick up the slack. I don’t say that boastfully. It was an exhausting experience, one of which I don’t want to repeat. I like being an independent woman but I still like the company of a real man. I just can’t find any.
I really look forward to reading the thoughts of others here. Makes me feel less alone. We can commiserate together and pass this information back and forth, resulting in a clearer picture of the debacle that was our life. Helps me know what I’m looking for now. Thanks.