LoveFraud reader buzzibee raises some important issues in a recent comment.
How does a tested and proven psychopath usually respond to being told “You have a mental disorder. You are characteristically a psychopath”?
Are [they] so arrogant to dispute a medical diagnosis that they have a mental disorder? Do they display any desire to learn more about the disorder and at any point admit to it?
In order to be diagnosed as a psychopath, a person needs a score of 30 out of a possible 40 on the Psychotherapy Checklist-Revised test (PCL-R). This is a very time-consuming test which only trained personnel can administer, so by and large only prisoners and research subjects are likely to have it.
Psychopaths don’t see themselves as having a problem and so wouldn’t present themselves for testing anyway. Unless they thought they might benefit from the diagnosis in some way. So that’s point number one: psychopaths are unlikely to receive the diagnosis unless they are incarcerated, and probably not even then.
Point number two is that those who do get the diagnosis respond like psychopaths; in other words they use it as yet another tool to manipulate others. Here’s a quote from a December, 13 ‘Nature’ article on research scanning the brains of psychopaths in order to better understand empathy:
All the subjects seem to find the experiment to be nonsense. “It was stupid, boring,” says inmate Willem Boerema (not his real name), who claims to have taken part only because he likes Meffert [the young female researcher]. Then, contradicting himself, he adds that “if they say the study can help people then it’s good”.
Boerema, smart, articulate and multilingual, has a PCL-R rating of 35 and a big problem with the term ‘psychopath’. He views it as a fashionable label abused by the judicial system to keep people like himself from being released. “The courts look at your PCL-R rating and add two years to your sentence, then another two years, and then another.”
When he entered the prison five years ago, Boerema says, ‘borderline personality’ was the fashionable term, and his designated pigeon-hole. “The psychopathy label is more damaging though it prompts everyone to see you as a potential serial killer, which I could never be.” (Note, in reporting this article it was agreed that inmates’ crimes would be neither asked about nor reported on.) But Boerema also wears the score as a badge of honour: “I think my high psychopath score is a talent, not a sickness I can make good strong decisions, and it’s good to have some distance with people.”
I’m reminded of Freud’s comments on the following “piece of sophistry”:
A. borrowed a copper kettle from B. and after he had returned it was sued by B. because the kettle now had a big hole in it which made it unusable. His defence was: “First, I never borrowed a kettle from B. at all; secondly, the kettle had a hole in it already when I got it from him; and thirdly, I gave him back the kettle undamaged”….We might…say: “A. has put an ‘and’ where only “either-or” is possible.”
‘Boerema’s litany is classic. It’s ‘nonsense’, ‘stupid’, ‘boring’. I’m going along because I like the doctor, I want to help people. It’s ‘fashionable’, ‘damaging’, labeling, used as an excuse to keep him in prison. It’s a badge of honour, a talent. It’s not a sickness… In short, there is no such thing as psychopathy, but to the extent that it’s true, it’s a good thing.
Just two other uses to which the diagnosis might be put are: as a threat, and to elicit pity.
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There’s never anything wrong with the psychopath. This is perhaps the main reason why therapy doesn’t work with them – they have no motivation to change. But that’s a topic for another day!
WP: Regarding why I posted that.
I think my post is consistent with the theme of the blog entry. What does someone like me do with my diagnosis? I have no idea if I fit the classic profile of a sociopath anymore. I know that I used to. People here seem to think I’m still a sociopath but I think that label is given out a little too liberally. But who knows, maybe I’m the typical “garden variety” scum bag sociopath everyone thinks. It doesn’t really matter.
You suggested since I know the rules, and understand the definitions of the emotions and when, approximately, I’m supposed to feel them, that I just “CUT THE CRAP” and start behaving like a normal human being. I’m trying to give you some insight into why I do what I do.
It isn’t that simple for me. I also understand that trying to explain that is, as you say later, like trying to explain color to someone who’s blind. It’s the same thing if you really try and get me to understand how empathy feels.
Regarding not being free to do what/when/where/how etc.. You have to again understand that my desires are likely polar opposites of yours. Society works and gets along (for the most part) because the overwhelming majority of society wants the same thing. Be that love, acceptance, success, whatever. It’s a universally human desire. Sure, you may want to rob a bank or want to beat up that guy who cut you off, or whatever, and societal laws prevent that sort of thing, but that’s not what this is about. This is about fundamental quality of life stuff. I get satisfaction in places most people find pain.
I’ve no idea what the future holds for me. There is an internal assumption that at some point I’ll be too old for this shit anymore. I don’t have everything figured out and maybe that’s part of what I’m trying to do now. I’m no spring chicken.
Anyway, regarding me lying or not. At the end of the day, if I’m lying to you, what does it really matter? If this is some fanciful piece of fiction that I, being a deranged sociopath, have dreamed up. Who cares? What’s the point?
EnnLondon:
I’ve seen the effects of depression first hand and I can honestly say that I’ve never been like that in my life. I can’t even imagine what it feels like. I’ve no basis for comparison.
Emotional pain is tricky. I’ve been in situations where expressing sorrow is the appropriate response, but it’s more boring to me than anything. You’re asking something I’m not sure how to answer. I’ve felt frustration and anger before. I know what these feel like. Are these considered types of emotional pain? I think not. Would I be sad if my mother died? No. Would I be sad if my wife was killed in a car accident? No. I would play the part, soak up the attention and take some time off from work. No one would ever know I wasn’t sad, but that doesn’t make me sad.
My “feelings” don’t get hurt. I get irritated when things don’t go my way. I’m the proverbial spoiled brat. Maybe that’s why I do so well in an Islamic country. It’s full of spoiled brats who stamp their feet and shake their fists at the world when it doesn’t suit their small minded views. I fit right in.
The lack of a bar really burns my ass though. I figure half the worlds problems with islam would be solved if they knew how to relax and have a damned beer once in awhile.
Mr. Green: You little devil.
SecretMonster
wp – This is abolutely right and it has profound implications: “I think it’s like trying to explain color to someone blind their entire lives. And you can’t imagine what it’s like to be blind your entire life by just imagining that you’ve got your eyes closed.” Our imaginations can only go so far.
SecretMonster, what do you think of the other sociopaths that you have run into in your life? Do you feel any sort of affinity towards one who is in some way like you? You mentioned previously that you had something close to “friendship” with somebody, just curious as to exactly what you might value in the companionship of another.
Depends. I don’t consider them any different than anyone else, really. The business world is so full of narcissists and borderline personality disorders it’s sort of common. I sure as hell don’t feel any affinity towards them. Although, there is a certain amount of interest and charm in the few women sociopaths I’ve run into.
Regarding the person who I “feel” most close to. He gives me unbelievable insight into the workings of emotions, as he’s ruled by emotions. He’s entertaining, and just as bad as I am but for completely different reasons. He would never believe I was a sociopath, though.
I don’t think my “value” and your “value” would be the same. But then again, maybe not so much? We all want people in our lives that add value to it in some way shape or form. Maybe they are well connected, maybe they can get seasons tickets, maybe they flatter you and make you feel better about yourself, who knows? Why do people end up being friends in the first place? Like mindedness, shared views, etc? You try to keep those in your life that are positive forces and remove those who are negative forces.
It’s all pretty much the same when you break it down. I might not get the warm fuzzies you’d get, but the result is the same.
SecretMonster
Secret Monster,
The sociopath I was involved with passed himself off as a single man, though he had in fact been living with a woman for years (while having numerous side flings.) I’m intensely curious about something here: If sociopaths get bored easily, if they have no strong attachments to other people, how can a man who is one live with/be married to a woman for years and years? Doesn’t it get wearing for him? What would be his motivation for staying with her? Ie, why would he bother? I’d be keen to know what you have to say about this, what your experiences with this are? Wouldn’t you begin to hate your wife for boring you, grow contemptuous of her? ARe you short with her? What’s the quality of your daily interactions like? And why do you think a woman would stay in a situation like this? A woman who has must have realized fairly quickly that her partner doesn’t really love her. I mean, sweet talk, mimicry only go so far–beyond that, people feel things in their bones.
Lesley
Hmmm, thank you SecretMonster. You echoed some of the thoughts I have been having over the past few days. Why do any of us keep people in our lives? Often because they make us look good, feel good, or for some other self-serving purpose. No perhaps we’re really not all that different. In examining my friends and family members, it seems like many of them have different degrees of psychopathic tendencies. I was curious about whether a psychopath would be interested in conning another psychopath, wouldn’t that be the ultimate “game” to win?
Lesley, I think I can sort of answer your question based on my own experience with a sociopath, even though I’m not SecretMonster. In my case, the man I loved so dearly needed one woman as a solid base of operations. There had to be someone on whom to cheat, someone to deceive constantly, someone who suspected that there was something wrong but willingly and blindly closed her eyes to it, even when she found a strange woman’s underwear on her bedroom floor. That was part of the power, to him. He was not only manipulating the ones he cheated with, but manipulating the one he lived with into being a willing victim. Power, control, humiliation. That’s what it’s all about to them.
I also think we’re a useful ‘smokescreen’ – the potential partners (who they *always* seem to be close friends with for a while) think ‘look – he can have normal relationships. I was fooled in this way by his ex – ‘Oh he must be capable of relationships, he’s been with this woman for ten years.’ She was massively depressed obviously and I have no doubt he cheated on her/messed her around relentlessly.
Secret Monster, I know you’ve said you don’t really seem to know ‘hurt’ as we do, but I think you also said that the biggest damage that you can imagine is being ‘found out’ and the whole thing unravelling.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who wants to know: In the event that the sociopath ‘comes back’ (and they all do – and I’ve had the first sign mine wants to) what would be the biggest knock to them of all? (I have NO intention of being involved with him ever again in any capacity). Totally ignoring him, or telling him ‘ I realise you are a sociopath, I’m going to warn everyone I can about your condition, and stay out of my way?’
Also…if you messed a woman about and she later wrote a book that was obviously about you (without naming names), would you be flattered or appalled?
Lesley – As sort of hinted at already, long term relationships give credibility. Obviously, this credibility is used for different things by different people. It can be a spring board into future relationships, sure. It’s also used in business, and in social circles. It looks good to be in a good relationship.
Daily life can be considered quite good. Her family loves me and says they are so happy her daughter finally found someone who knew how to make her happy. I believe that – She is very happy. We never fight, there is never any contention or unhappiness in the house. She’s a very charming and funny woman, we share a lot of laughter. She’s also very adventurous, which fits in with me quite nicely.
I think the last real depression she was in was a couple of years ago when a valued family member died. It was a hard loss for her and I was absolutely pathetic at trying to comfort her.
Otherwise, I appear quite loving and affectionate. I’m very good at what I do.
Notquitebroken: Humiliation doesn’t interest me, the other stuff? Well, yeah. Guilty as charged. She would, of course, be humiliated if she knew the truth of matters, but i go to long lengths to avoid that.
EnnLondon – Being found out unravels a lifetime of work to become the person I am. It’s engineered and fought for every step of the way. I’ve exercised a lot of self control and pulled of some amazing shit to get where I am today. To lose it all would mean that all this effort was for naught. I want to take who I am to the grave.
If I’m looking for a re-spark of an old fling – it highly depends upon the circumstances involved with the separation.
Let’s just say worst case, the thing that really makes me lose sleep at night – She ignores me completely. Any attention would be better than none, any communication is better than none. Communication still gives me a window, any window. So if she shuts me down completely, no contact at all – eventually I would move on, BUT my biggest fear is if she starts infiltrating my social circles.
I imagine walking into a room where a large group of my most valued social circle, and there she is – and everyone turns and gives me a judgmental look. Just the thought of it makes my pulse quicken.
Engineering my demise without contact to me is worst case scenario for me. Your mileage may vary, of course. It all depends on what his/her deal is. Is he a loner? Successful? One of the losers? What?
People are easy to figure out, sociopaths are even easier (for me anyway). I can figure out how best to crush almost anyone if I put my mind to it.
Appearing in a book? A little of both. Flattered that I could have such power, but personally appalled because of the ramifications of it. I’d have to go on damn near full time damage control and work to discredit you anyway possible. I would find your ghosts and skeletons, and if none existed, I would create them.
If this happened in my life, I would stop at nothing to make you look like a raving lunatic to preserve my cover.
SecretMonster
SecretMonster, when you say, “People are easy to figure out, sociopaths are even easier (for me anyway). I can figure out how best to crush almost anyone if I put my mind to it,” I am inclined to think you might be able to use your powers for good rather than evil, if you chose. I’d love to be able to crush the man who wrecked me and so many others. I’m tempted to seek your advice on the topic.
The question is this, though: crushing another sociopath would do more harm than good, wouldn’t it? Isn’t it true that your sort merely learn from even the most devastating of experiences and refine their techniques unless incarcerated? As much as I’d like to crush him, I think I’d only be giving him a leg up for the next conquest, helping him to refine his ways rather than truly crushing him or teaching him a lesson in the ways a normal person can be taught.
Also, when you say you’re not into humiliation, I would have to beg to differ. You might not be into the sexual aspect of humiliation with your wife or others, but isn’t it the potential to crumble their lives that gives you a sense of power? That’s humiliation, my friend. Power over others used at your sole discretion can be extremely humiliating to them. Isn’t that what you seek? The outcome of humiliation itself isn’t as important to you as the potential to use it as another weapon in your arsenal, I believe.