LoveFraud reader buzzibee raises some important issues in a recent comment.
How does a tested and proven psychopath usually respond to being told “You have a mental disorder. You are characteristically a psychopath”?
Are [they] so arrogant to dispute a medical diagnosis that they have a mental disorder? Do they display any desire to learn more about the disorder and at any point admit to it?
In order to be diagnosed as a psychopath, a person needs a score of 30 out of a possible 40 on the Psychotherapy Checklist-Revised test (PCL-R). This is a very time-consuming test which only trained personnel can administer, so by and large only prisoners and research subjects are likely to have it.
Psychopaths don’t see themselves as having a problem and so wouldn’t present themselves for testing anyway. Unless they thought they might benefit from the diagnosis in some way. So that’s point number one: psychopaths are unlikely to receive the diagnosis unless they are incarcerated, and probably not even then.
Point number two is that those who do get the diagnosis respond like psychopaths; in other words they use it as yet another tool to manipulate others. Here’s a quote from a December, 13 ‘Nature’ article on research scanning the brains of psychopaths in order to better understand empathy:
All the subjects seem to find the experiment to be nonsense. “It was stupid, boring,” says inmate Willem Boerema (not his real name), who claims to have taken part only because he likes Meffert [the young female researcher]. Then, contradicting himself, he adds that “if they say the study can help people then it’s good”.
Boerema, smart, articulate and multilingual, has a PCL-R rating of 35 and a big problem with the term ‘psychopath’. He views it as a fashionable label abused by the judicial system to keep people like himself from being released. “The courts look at your PCL-R rating and add two years to your sentence, then another two years, and then another.”
When he entered the prison five years ago, Boerema says, ‘borderline personality’ was the fashionable term, and his designated pigeon-hole. “The psychopathy label is more damaging though it prompts everyone to see you as a potential serial killer, which I could never be.” (Note, in reporting this article it was agreed that inmates’ crimes would be neither asked about nor reported on.) But Boerema also wears the score as a badge of honour: “I think my high psychopath score is a talent, not a sickness I can make good strong decisions, and it’s good to have some distance with people.”
I’m reminded of Freud’s comments on the following “piece of sophistry”:
A. borrowed a copper kettle from B. and after he had returned it was sued by B. because the kettle now had a big hole in it which made it unusable. His defence was: “First, I never borrowed a kettle from B. at all; secondly, the kettle had a hole in it already when I got it from him; and thirdly, I gave him back the kettle undamaged”….We might…say: “A. has put an ‘and’ where only “either-or” is possible.”
‘Boerema’s litany is classic. It’s ‘nonsense’, ‘stupid’, ‘boring’. I’m going along because I like the doctor, I want to help people. It’s ‘fashionable’, ‘damaging’, labeling, used as an excuse to keep him in prison. It’s a badge of honour, a talent. It’s not a sickness… In short, there is no such thing as psychopathy, but to the extent that it’s true, it’s a good thing.
Just two other uses to which the diagnosis might be put are: as a threat, and to elicit pity.
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There’s never anything wrong with the psychopath. This is perhaps the main reason why therapy doesn’t work with them – they have no motivation to change. But that’s a topic for another day!
Gosh that’s so weird. My ex-sociopath took GREAT delight in going on about how he could ruin people if he wanted to, crush them with words.
Secret Monster: How would you describe ‘where you are today’ and what aspects could be damaged irreversibly by a public er…unveiling?
It’s so difficult for us to understand how you can acknowledge ‘funny and charming’ as qualities yet find them dispensable. (My ex-sociopath was extremely funny and I made him laugh too…I made the mistake of thinking that every time we were laughing uncontrollably we were creating a greater bond).
‘It depends on the circumstances’ regarding re-enactment of a fling. What are ideal circumstances? What would mean no going back?
I’m intrigued most of all, though, by the impact of this ‘judgemental look’ that would ‘make your pulse quicken.’ Why would this be so terrifying? What’s the worse that could happen? If sociopaths can be so reckless and appear so ‘brave’ (and do things others wouldn’t think of) then what is it about that situation, the one that you must have known you were creating, that inspires such terror? (You’re echoing the way my ex-sociopath behaved – he created a situation at work where he couldn’t HELP but get judgemental looks everywhere he went…yet he’d get bothered by them AND bothered when ignored AND create EXACTLY the same situations again!!)
I also wondered that if I told him that I realised he’s a sociopath but I’d ENJOYED the relationship (say, for physical reasons, and for the fact that despite the mental torture, he made me think a lot and read more – this is actually all true but nothing I ever want to repeat – only need to learn that lesson once) whether that would annoy him or please him. Cos it’s almost telling him he hasn’t made a victim out of me, which is what he seems to want to do to people.
I wouldn’t say he was a loner – whenever he is it’s by choice. He has what looks from my reading like all the classic signs. Charming, extreme intelligence with nothing to show for it. Has worked in about 40 jobs (another classic sign) while trying to pursue his creative dream (which he looks close to achieving).
Oh he’s has created so much trouble that he’s notorious among our work circle (I got him ditched from work effortlessly because it was so obvious he was creating discontent – I feel sure he’s figured this out by now and wonder how he feels about it). I’d FULLY expect him to make me look like a raving lunatic – but to be honest I’m not that bothered. Everyone I care about knows the score.
SecretMonster: First, thanks for your honesty. I’d like to ask your opinion on something. I had a horrible experience with, what I believe is a sociopath. The guy is very clever, but at the same time, not so much. You seem very good at going undetected, and as far as I know, he also DID (past tense) as well. He had me T-totally fooled into thinking he was a loyal, honest, trustworthy person- a person of substance. He really emphasized that. But one simple ommission of truth, and also one preventable incident of unprotected sex (I know of my responsibilites in this, but he KNEW he was poz, I did not, and infact had no idea because we had talked about it before, and at this point I would have never thought he could have done that to me after being together for good span of time. He could have stopped me from making a fatal mistake, but he did not.)- made me realize that he is the absolute total opposite of everything he portrays himself to be. He is HIV positive, and had been for a YEAR before we ever met. After I found out, I confronted him, and he still denied it. I had read that “they will lie when the truth will save their neck”, and this is certainly what he did. Lie. So I guess my question to you is, as a sociopath, could you have done that? Knowlingly let someone take that kind of risk without warning them? And, would you have lied when confronted with the truth? And, what the hell did that accomplish by lying to me? Dont you think that telling the truth, and trying to gain my sympathy (which we all know is a tool used), we better serve his purpose: keeping it a secret. Or maybe that wasnt his purpose at all? Maybe it was to just use me as a resource when he needed someone. That was what I felt all along- that I was just being used because he was not in a good position at the time. I’ve heard nothing from him in about 6 months, other than running into him occasionly out on the town. It’s actually only been since the truth came out, and how he has acted since, that I have concluded he is sociopathic. He shows absolutely ZERO remorse or guilt, and basically laughed in my face. Thoughts?
Notquitebroken: Isn’t revenge a devil’s tool? Careful going to war with someone who doesn’t feel remorse or regret. While you can hit them where they hurt, you’ve got MANY more spots that will sting and they have absolutely no regard for limits. Even if you win, at the end of the day, what does it gain you? Some sense of satisfaction that’ll be fleeting anyway, because you’ve taken a step closer to being what you were raging against?
Now, if you have some political enemy at work who’s an obstacle to your progress, than by all means – fire away!
Regarding the humiliation – You could be right. I never thought of it in that context. I visualize a person being humiliated and think to myself I don’t do that, but in fact, what I do is hover the humiliation over their heads to prove how clever I am in not letting them feel the humiliation. Funny, I never thought of it like that.
EnnLondon: People who manipulate others often and gain some skill at it are like people who do anything well in their life (well, not everyone obviously), they develop a certain ego. I believe sociopaths/narcissists are even more egocentric, thus the bragging.
My life – It’s difficult to explain and avoid the bragging thing I just spoke about. I’ve done well in my life, and it hasn’t been a series of small successes rebuilt from failures (40 odd jobs? Not me..). It’s been one long concerted effort.
Imagine being on the outside looking in, forever. You stand out in a cold street watching through the window into a house filled with light and warmth and people laughing and living, crying and dying, and you can’t be part of that anymore. I like to think I dance on the knife edge of destruction, mostly because it’s dramatic, but in reality I avoid huge risks where the failure could potentially get unmanageable. Maybe that’s one thing that drove me to being a serial cheater vs. a serial killer. I get caught cheating and I’m just a louse of a boyfriend/husband, but it satisfies that itch under my skin and allows me to keep going. I get caught chopping up mailmen or something, and I get evicted from the game.
I don’t think I’m as reckless as your boy. My bravery goes only so far. In fact, if you witnessed my “paranoia” that happens sometimes (re: the entry where I damn near freaked out on a plane), you’d probably even say I’m a coward occasionally. I’m ok with that. A certain amount of cowardice can be healthy.
Dodged_A_Bullet: Jeez, that’s a hard question. Would I knowingly put someone at risk for HIV if I were positive? I’ve no idea. Part of me screams “No, of course not! What sort of monster would do that!!” because that’s the obvious correct answer, but than in reality, maybe? If I had HIV, what the hell would I do with myself?? Going around and exposing people to it will get you found out sooner rather then later, and you could be considered a serial killer at that point. Hasn’t there been cases where a person knowingly exposed another and was subsequently locked away? (or was that a Law and Order episode??) But what could I do if I did have HIV to satisfy this need? I can’t answer your question honestly. I simply don’t know what I would do.
Am I capable of it? Sure. Of course. Would I lie about it when confronted? Well, yeah. Very likely. It would probably be more of a knee jerk lie vs. a calculated long term lie. Sure, telling you COULD have gotten some gains, but getting caught off guard or not thinking the situation through logically, first instinct is to lie my ass off. It’s like a flinching reaction when someone goes to hit you.
I’m glad I’m paranoid about protection!
I would probably start attending HIV support groups and worm my way around those circles. Support groups can be wonderful great big circlejerks.
Laughing in your face is to brazen for me, not my style. I might be laughing on the inside, but I’d never want to be seen as so callous. I’d alway play the wounded puppy. Again, him laughing and his callous behavior brought you here. I’m trying to avoid that!
SecretMonster
P.S. happy new year to you Sunni’s out there. Thanks for the day off! (Well, yesterday for me, but it’s still the 10th for most of you.)
SecretMonster: He didn’t literally laugh in my face, but he sure the hell did play the wounded puppy. He tried to make me feel guilty by saying he hadn’t done anything to be treated that way, and also saying, ‘since you cant seem to find time to talk to me any other way, thanks for the continued long friendship..’ It was clear he wasn’t going to come clean, hence I quit trying. But as a result, between me and his last victim, quite a few people know of his deceptive ways. And yes, there are laws against it. I could have had him arrested and tested. Luckily, I ‘Dodge A Bullet’. Had I been hit, things would have been different.
SecretMonster: Re: ‘Imagine standing on a cold street watching…’ – if you could flick a switch and not be a sociopath, would you? (I know you can’t know what that would be like, but we don’t know what it would like to be a sociopath and despite the pain having a conscience causes us, we wouldn’t swap).
You say ‘you can’t be part of that anymore’ – does this mean you remember that there was a moment you had ‘normality’, but ‘lost’ it? Are your family sociopathic?
This is a fascinating blog. I am in the middle of divorcing a sociopath and struggle with his harassment daily. At times I am on the ground crying with such horrible pain, it is almost unbearable. When reading SecretMonster’s posts it almost makes me feel better in some strange way – gives me insight into how people that behave this way actually view the world, insight into how they think.
I only recently discovered how deceitful my husband has been our entire marriage. I have known since before marrying him that there was something not quite right about him, but I carried on for many, many years. He had me believing it was all me – something was really wrong with me. The only thing “wrong” with me was that I have a conscience.
If I could live my life with no conscience, no sense of remorse, no empathy, I can’t even imagine what that would be like. It is so far removed from who I am – who most of us are as human beings. I love wp’s post about the ‘x’ and ‘y’ groups. This also brings comfort to me to think of it this way. There is no way I will ever be able to communicate with him on the same playing field. And I thank God for that. I would never want to be him, like SM said, “being on the outside looking in forever”.
When my husband used to say, “I don’t care if I ever see my mother again”, I had no idea that he really didn’t care if he ever saw her again. He has no capacity to really care about anything.
When I pleaded with my husband to stop being so cruel to me, he said very plainly he has no idea what cruelty is, so he cannot promise me he will not be cruel. He is on the outside looking in, and will never be able to figure out the world that most humans live in. It does make us non-sociopaths almost empathize with them, almost, but not quite.
Question for SecretMonster: did you have an abusive childhood?
All of this is such good therapy – I am one week out of a two-year relationship and everything I’ve experienced is outlined here, to a T. I’d even been told of his “sociopathic ways” from the beginning from his ex-wife of 22 years and an ex-girlfriend (who I found out he was sleeping with for the first year of our relationship) (he of course says it was only a time or two). I guess it took me two years of seeing it and living it to really “get it”. I was naive to think that someone could not possible act so happy, so in love, be so endlessly giving and caring but yet carry on with his “ways” all along. And the funny part is you cant even prove alot of it – except the times they get caught- but your GUT is a huge role in your realization. Simple intuition that things are not right. But you get talked back, convinced of how sincere he is and the two halves of you continue to trade off in your devotion and repulsion of this man. The part that just slays me – I have to let go of it – but how can he not feel happiness and contentment in the great couple that we seemed to be and he claimed we were – but rather sacrifice it and screw it up when it could have been so good. After reading all this, I get it now. A big Duh! on my part. Never again will I go back. Its truly mind-blowing – this whole psychological thing they got goin on.
Secret Monster – while you anger my broken heart, I do appreciate insight into your thought process. One question – have you ever felt guilty or bad for what you’ve made others feel? How about all the women you slept with and dumped. But I guess you did say that “you’ve never made anyone feel bad”. You’ve read the these blogs – how could you think you havent, when your condition is clearly geared to hurting others?
and one last comment on their learning to get better at deception. He got so good at playing the role that I began to even doubt he was playing a role. Suddenly I started thinking “I” was the one making up in my mind that he was lying or skewing the truth just enough to cover himself. He said he realized how much he loved me finally and that he is set on making it right. It gets so hard to sort fact from fiction. I ended the relationship based on the fact that I’m plain exhausted from having to sift thru it every day looking for the lies and the truth, and trying to decide which is which.
EnnLondon: When I say part of that anymore, I mean, part of being able to interact and take part in society. I’m not saying “be part of the warm fuzzy” club. Think about it, sociopaths need people around them, they need their social groups. Take that away from them and what do they have?
My father was gone at around age 3 according to my mother, and it’s a subject she gets touchy about so going and asking “Was dad a sociopath” probably won’t have good results. Otherwise I don’t know of any others in my family.
Almost_free: Correction, he has no capacity to really care about anything that makes sense to you to care about.
And unless the guy was a dolt, of course he knows what cruelty is. Everyone can see cause and effect. That just sounds like a “pity me” line. This way you will confess for his sins.
I’m not aware of any abuse in my childhood. I had an inclining that my father abused me when I was really young but I have nothing to back that up with, just an impression. More then not, I was the abusive one to those around me when I was young. Extremely physically violent. I do often tell people I was abused by my father before he left, whenever it may come up. Truth is, I don’t know.
Findingmyselfagain: To your first question – No.
Furthermore, I never said I never made anyone feel bad, I’ve made plenty of people feel bad, don’t misunderstand me. The difference is I attempt not to wad them up chew on them, and then spit them out a broken husk. I won’t say I haven’t always been completely successful as there are some broken hearts out there with my name on them, but I guess the other point is no one would ever consider me a sociopath. The things all your sociopaths do are things I avoid. Financial ruin, the parasitic life style, the child abuse, etc. etc. etc.. None of my people ever wrote a blog about me.
Read my blog, in one of my early entries I explain how I empowered my last mistress to dump me. I don’t always do the dumping. She’s actually doing better then ever. She had always been stuck in dead end relationships never having the will power or the self respect to end them, but after me she’s more confident and sure of herself then ever before. Granted, this isn’t common, but it sure is an interesting side effect.
Did this guy of yours have a history of actual lying that gave you the suspicion that everything was a lie?
SecretMonster
Secret Monster: I talked with his exwife of 22 years. She said he cheated endlessly on her, she stayed until the last one graduated and left to save her emotional self. She said several women have called her, as I did – looking for answers. I found out he was cheating on me with his past girlfriend, he also weaves stories around times, places, dates, money, his whereabouts and later cant remember what he’d told me and stories came out different. I’m not the type to grill or question, but I Listen very well and I remember what was said. These days, I just go on intuition and the belief that everything is way too good to be true. He treats me like a queen but I feel from his history and my own experience with him that it is all payoff for what he is doing on the side. He needs me to be his stable, constant, make him look normal to society person. This is a man that in the first 1 year – I uncovered porn addiction, gambling, drinking addictions, mysexmatch.com, was working with a photographer filming porn, spent most his waking open evenings in clubs and bars and now he is Mr. Perfect Boyfriend and has only eyes for me-no desire for any of that anymore? I wont even go into the mind games he plays… the pull me in, then push me out emotional control and rollercoasters. Then when you try to discuss the crazy high ups and low downs of his actions – he doesnt even know what you are talking about. Most of all – its all really quite indescribable. Its all on a subconcious level on his part and half the time on mine I guess. And yes, I found the hair on the shower wall and on the couch pillows. And I’m not a blonde. At 56 he has become what I believe to be an expert at keeping things under the rug and he should have been an attorney as he can explain away anything. Why did I stay? That is the Ultimate Question of this whole website! Please tell me the answer.