There comes a time when nurture becomes nature.
This is the time when nurture and nature become inextricable, inseparable.
I suspect nobody knows precisely when this point arrives in the development of a given individual, but the immediate ramification is this: When you are involved specifically with a sociopath, or any exploitative personality, it is imperative that you stop asking how this person became who he is?
Sure, he likely endured—and was shaped by—some form of neglect or abuse growing up, and if this wasn’t obvious in the history, it was still likely there.
But here’s the point: it doesn’t matter. Not one bit.
Instead, you must relinquish your empathy, compassion and curiosity—in short, every emotion that supports your obsession to understand the genesis and evolution of your exploiter’s pathology—and confront the reality that you are dealing with (as I propose) a case of nurture becoming nature, about which there’s not a damned thing, at this point, to be done.
The damage, in other words, was baked into his character a long time ago. There is no ameliorating it now. Not all the love in the world—nothing that you have, or think you have, or thought you had to give him—will dent the petrification of his psychopathology.
His diseased personality disease is immutable, as good as etched in his DNA. Case closed.
And so what you do is this: You run for the hills, just as you’d run from a rabid dog that perhaps once was innocent and gentle. Now the dog is rabid: it no longer matters how it became rabid. And so you run, fast, and you don’t look back, because every second you allow false hope to delay you increases your risk of grievous harm.
You may have loved that dog; maybe loved it before it became rabid, or maybe it was rabid all along and you just didn’t know it. And maybe you even still love that rabid dog, or the persisting fantasy of it as unrabid.
But the dog is rabid, and a rabid dog doesn’t love you, and it was probably rabid going way back and never really loved you as you once imagined, but again”¦it makes no difference.
There are rabid animals, and there are rabid people, and neither loves you.
And so the time for analysis, of him, is up.
To be clear: I appreciate the need to make sense of trauma. But at some point, the analysis of exploiters can assume an obsessive desperation that subverts, rather than supports, the processing of trauma.
I speak here from the position of having worked with many victims of exploitive personalities who are very much like stunned deer caught, and as if suspended indefinitely, in the headlights.
One of the vital tasks is to unstun them.
And sometimes the dogged determination to “make sense” of, to “analyze” the exploitive traumatizer can be a disguised obsession with discovering something in the history (his or yours) that you insist on imagining would have made a difference”¦would have made him different?
We can search this angle interminably. And unless we call off the search, we will.
And it’s a search we’re wise to call off because it can effectively bring us to a standstill, forever.
(My use of “he” in this article was a convenience, not meant to imply that women aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Dear Dancing Warrior,
Although my latest experience with a spath was entirely on line and on phone, I have had a short relationship with an N who I met online (note to self: pattern developing) but had a relationship in RL with.
I also was with someone I thought of as an alcoholic when I was 20. Think now, that there was a whole lot more going on there.
So, I can relate a bit to having slept beside someone and how it is hard to believe that the same person whose skin has warmed yours REALLY DOESN’T/ CAN’T HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.
You probably wouldn’t have been there if there was no ’kindness’ ”“ genuine or mimicked, BUT YOU SURE WOULDN’T BE HERE IF THERE WASN’T ACID INVOLVED. Me neither.
Take it as a given that you have been duped; FEEL LIKE A COMPLETE IDIOT. It will not harm you. Can you say the same of being with him?
Fear of feeling a certain way is not worth the tremendous amount of energy holding it at bay requires. And I think we get to feel a bit more comfortable with uncomfortable judgments we place on ourselves and we can start to change them or let them change us. Part of my struggle daily is to keep my game face on for work. FOR CHRIST’S SAKE I TOLD THEM ALL ‘HE’ DIED. I wish I felt comfortable enough to tell my director, etc. what has happened, but I don’t. It would make everything much easier for me emotionally to have that freedom.
I am embarrassed as hell ”“ not because I was duped ”“ she’s a spath pro, but because I am now a mess. And I haven’t taken care of some things that REALLY needed my attention ’cause I was too caught up in taking care of ’him’, too caught on the anxiety and drama/trauma treadmill and buoyed by her stooopid spath optimism- oh yah, and the promise that ’he’ would help me financially. Ha ha. Not so funny over here now.
I don’t know him. I don’t know your story. Here’s what I see on a moments glance, without any knowledge as to the tiggers behind his words, or his tone of voice. I CAN tell you, however, he is full of shit. If I am too raucus, just let me know, I’ll dial it back the next time. 😉
DW, I know you are having trouble with this.
(I ’KNOW’ you, I can see the real you, I want to heeeelp you)
I’m trying to invite you because I want you in my life now.
(Operative word: trying. NOT actually doing. Why ’NOW’? What about the last years???? I am TRYING to do something cause I..I”I WANT something)
THere’s a lot of things going on.
(I should be cut some slack, I want you to feel sorry for me, ’cause”blah, blah, blah)
We’ve spent many years of life when many things were going on whether babies, or parents, a war, or whatever.
(Babies are a thing ’going on’?)
We’re alone again
(HA HA HA, ’we’ are alone, noooo buddy, YOU are alone”DW has herself)
and in a crisis, and there are still a lot of things going on in life.
(that’s the way life is, and you are still a loser)
Just because 2 people are troubled or fighting or whatever, these things still go on. I’m inviting you in because it’s improtant stuff I don’t want to go through alone.
(ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!! This, we will recognize as the feel sorry for me phase of a temper tantrum)
If we can, that would be great. I want to be there with you. I want you to be with me, NOW.
(ouuu, the demanding phase of the temper tantrum)
That’s what I’m kind of begging you to consider, really. Pleading with you. Be there with me.
(I am now going to use the ’pretty’/ whiney words, cause my demanding ones MAY not have workEd)
You only get this stuff once.
(My first resonnse is: THANK FUCKING GAWD!)
girl, keep going, you can get out of this. just keep taking steps.
all best,
one step
Dear one step, and warrior woman!
One step, you are using my “trick” of INTERPRETING P-SPEAK INTO ENGLISH! Oh Yes, because the words don’t mean the same to them that they do to US! Good job One step! I am so glad I am not the only one here who is BI-LINGUAL AND SPEAKS BOTH P AND ENGLISH1 LOL ROTFLMAO
Warriior woman, his words are meant to hook you back in with the FOG—FER,OBLIGATION and BUILT!
So what is in this for YOU? Did he say anything about YOU? Nope, it is all about how he needs YOU with HIM….he gets YOU and you get ZILCH.
NC is NO contact, none, zip, zero, nada absolutely do not read his texts or e mails, or listen to his voice mails, do not answer the phone ( best to change e mail addresses and change phone numbers.–Do not give the number to anyone who will give it to him.) do not even talk to anyone ABOUT him except here.
Don’t let him know what you are doing, and do your best to have no information about him. The less even mental contact you ahve with him, the better.
The reason for NC is that it gives your head and heart time to start to heal, and without further injury from him or BS, and it helps your head clear up.
Sit down and write a list of all the nasty things he has done to you. Any time you start to feel “weak” or want him back, READ THAT LIST.
You will start to grieve, and that consists of a lot of different emotions changing hourly for a while, doubt, sadness, bargaining with the P or with God if he would just act right and then you could be so happy, and what if and so on, back and forth (google “greif process” and read about it, that is what we feel from the LOSS—in this case the loss of our fantasy relationship, because they are NOT capable of a real relationship any more than a tick on a dogs ear has a “relationsh[p” with the dog except as a parasite.
Hang on Warrior, I’m glad you chose that name! it is a good one, and remember—a warrior woman has to have courage, and courage is not being UNafraid, it is being scared chitless and still keeping on going doing what you know is right! ((((hugs))) and God bless you.
Ox Drover,
One step bows deeply and accepts her place in the league of the multi-lingual – 🙂
I came across a spath on a webiste the other day, and outed him immediately. no hesitation. IF he was a good person his response to me, and in turn three other women who went after him IMMEDIATELY would have been different. I actually think ‘he’ was a sockpuppet of my spath, just cause of ‘his’ repsonse. BUT, MAYBE IT’S JUST, WAIT FOR IT………UNIVERSAL SPATH SPEAK! Kinda like Esperanto, but less irritating. 😉
Danicing Warrior,
I was thinking about your name, too. If we are dancing we have one the war.
best,
one step
One-Step and OxDrover,
Your responses made me laugh!
I am thick, I admit, but I don’t understand NC.
I haven’t firmly decide to divorce him FIRST, so being unsure still in my head makes it hard to have no contact. I agreed to try couples therapy one last time, had two sessions, he cancelled this week’s says doesn’t trust therapist as he is “conflict oriented” and it’s all negative and all his fault so doesn’t want to go back. Here I am, unable to call it quits permanently YET.
How can this last therapy attempt help me in my decision?
He is asking “be there with me” but won’t do his share of work and put in an honest effort in therapy. Can I use this as leverage? I’ve told him I (not WE, but “I”) am not equipped with communication skills and we talk in circles and it’s not productive, that’s why “I” (not WE) need the help of a therapist to understand/resolve things.
He asked for “fast track” therapy last time. Therapist threw at him “projective identification” and said there you go, that’s your HW. Work that out then you can have a relationship. Now he is pissed at the therapist.
How do I use all this to help me DECIDE and feel I won’t look back that I had made a mistake and not left any stone unturned?
The only thing I can think is to ask him for MUTUALITY in this support he is asking for. Three guesses what his answer will be? (“I’ll humor you as long as I can reel you back in, so how do I pretend that I’m buying in and that you are my “treasure”” without actually having to do anyting real for you?”)
It is very hard to unravel a 20 yr marriage and shatter the good memories and image of him as a supportive husband, a good father, a good provider, reliable home maker. In many ways he was loyal, good, funny–sometimes hard for me to balance the intolerable things.
Note to self–there was a REASON why I decided to separate. There was a REASON why I felt I had to file for divorce.
Dear Warrior,
No one can make up your mind but you. It is your life, and your decision. I will say this, however.
If you were doing heroin I would tell you 1) it is not good for you 2) it will ruin your life 3) it will be difficult to kick it 4) you can kick it if you want to, but you MUST WANT TO
You are an adult (I assume if you’ve been married 20 yrs) and it is up to you to decide how you run your life.
You cannot “fix” anyone else. You CAN fix yourself. It is your choice. I will support your free choice to choose your life, and what you do with it, but I will not approve of anyone abusing you, hurting you—even you.
Okay…it seems that my latest issue is timely based on the recent posts. I heard from Biddy yesterday. She and my ex-S spent the Thanksgiving holiday with his mother. She told me that she blew up in front of his mother and told everything he had ever done. Funny, she told me that she had already done that back several months ago. She now says that he’s promised his Mommy that he’ll be good (43 year old man) and will treat her like she deserves to be treated. She says that she believes he will keep his word to his mother (?)
I did what you all instructed. I encouraged her to come back to lovefraud. She told me that she had a female friend who was a therapist and that she had discussed his behavior with her and that she said that he really didn’t sound like a sociopath to her…just a man with insecurity issues with a higher than normal sex drive possibly a sex addict who uses sex from other women as a comforting “blanket” when he felt insecure. Tells me that IF she even talked to this therapist that she ONLY focused on the cheating aspect of his personality. Forget all the other signs and symptoms.
However, my own private therapist told me point blank that he was a sociopath. I was totally honest with my therapist…honesty is essential if you expect to get help! I didn’t bash my ex…if anything, I DEFENDED him for being a wondeful husband that loved me more than life itself and that suddenly turned into another person altogether…within a matter of hours! I needed help in understanding that. The therapist started to tell me other things about his personality and actions that I hadn’t revealed. You could have knocked me over with a feather. When, I confirmed that my therapist was describing him to a “T”…he simply stated that my ex was a sociopath and directed me to LF as well as providing me with other materials to read.
All of you have heard my story over and over and over again. In my heart I KNOW what he is yet I allow myself to doubt my own judgement as well as the profressionals and great brave people here on LF who have done multiple backward flips to help me understand! All it takes is ONE other suggestion as to what his problem may be, and I begin to doubt my own gut. I’ve read and educated myself endlessly on the behavior of sociopaths…it’s ALL there…so why do I STILL have doubts. And, furthermore WHY am I obsessed with the need to PROVE what he is? Why do I even care? Was it because no one had ever degraded me or humiliated me in the fashion that he did. I honestly feel like I was raped over and over and over again sexually, emotionally and financially. I have to ask myself what am I expecting to gain from all this? Is it credibility? Justice? Revenge? WHY does this continue to haunt me? I feel NO love for him whatsoever! I honestly HATE the man and I have NEVER ever hated anyone! Am I on a mission to destory his life as he did mine even though I’ve been blessed with rebuilding it far above what it ever was? Am I crazy?
Dear Tami.
QUOTE:
I honestly feel like I was raped over and over and over again sexually, emotionally and financially.
THAT’s BECAUSE YOU WERE.
QUOTE:
I have to ask myself what am I expecting to gain from all this? Is it credibility? Justice? Revenge?
I think, Tami, you are coming to think about now, the question I asked you a while back..what are YOU getting out of this relationship with BIDDY? Is it to “save” her—the woman who “ruined” your marriage, the woman he “threw you over for?” Isn’t it odd that you are so involved in trying to convince HER that he is a sociopath?
QUOTE: WHY does this continue to haunt me? I feel NO love for him whatsoever! I honestly HATE the man and I have NEVER ever hated anyone!
Tami, “hate” is not the opposite of “love”—cause you are still thinking about him, INDIFFERENCE, just not caring a rat’s behind about him or what he does or what happens to him is the opposite of “love”—you are still “inviolved” with him if you are actively “hating” him. In fact, you are still CONTACT with him in communicating with her, with hearing all he is up to, all the things he is doing to her.
QUOTE: Am I on a mission to destory his life as he did mine even though I’ve been blessed with rebuilding it far above what it ever was?
I think the answer to that is YES! I think maybe somehow you have decided that by convincing this woman he left you for that he is a sociopath and “helping” her escape, you are vindicating to yourself that he is what he IS.
Tami there is such a thing as a two-abuser relationship, where the DRAMA triangle reigns supreme. They play the drama triangle.
Right now, her purpopse is to DEFEND him against all the insults that the PERSECUTOR—YOU is slinging at the poor baby, she is rescuing him from YOU–proving to you that she got this good man and you lost him.
The musical chairs will change again, though, and he will start treating her badly, then she will run to you again to rescue her, and when she is done it will move on to the next round.
Over the holidays she picked another rescuer—his mother—mommie became the “police person” to make “baby boy” straighten up, and Biddy is just “sure” he will do this for his “mommie”—well, we know how that is going to play out don’t we?
NO YOU ARE NOT CRAZY, TAMI!!! But by staying engaged with this whole freaking dysfunctional triangle game of “save Biddy” when in truth, Biddy not only doesn’t want to be saved, Biddy is playing these dysfunctional games.
Think about it. She was a married woman—had an affair with him—-took him away from you in 3 short weeks after meeting him—does that sound RATIONAL TO YOU? Of course not, you are doing the same thing with Biddy that you did with him, you are FILLING IN THE BLANKS, and thinking how she is complaining of being abused —but let me tell you, the person who is an abuser who gets hooked into a two-abuser :”gasoline and fire” relationship is having just as much “fun” in the situation as he is! they are JUST AS DISORDERED.
Not all “abusive” relationships are ONE sided abuse, my bet in this one is that the “fit” she threw at mommie-in-law’s house was a doozie.
The tension builds up, then the person playing the game of musical chairs that is in the “victim” seat, rebels and throws a fit, then the persecutor person becomes the victim for a while, and then when the tension builds up, he throws a fit and guess what, she is right back in the victim chair, and then she will run to either her MIL to be her rescueer or back to you.
Right now, she called to “crow” about how she “showed him” and how MIL is going to keep him in line.
I ho0ped at the first when Biddy came here that she was “saveable” that she might truly be a victim, but when you look at the history of the entire relationship, she is I believe a PSEUDO-VICTIM, just a co-abuser who is masking as a “poor victim” and loves the sympathy, loves the DRAM and loves proving to you how great a man she got.
She doesn’t have much of a moral compass, she stole this man froom you, while both he and she were married. Strike one. NOW SHE IS COMING TO YOU BEGGING YOUR EAR AND EMPATHY CAUSE HE IS UNKIND TO HER— personally I think that is a LOT OF GALL!
Tami, I know I sound like a broken record, but GET OUT OF THIS DYSFUNCTIONAL MESS, GET AS FAR AWAY FROM IT AS POSSIBLE, NC WITH BIDDY AND NC WITH HIJM. QUIT TRYING TO BE MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY CONNECTED WITH THIS COUPLE. They are out of your life.
It doesn’t matter what Biddy’s therapist friend or ANYONE ELSE SAYS HIS DIAGNOSIS IS, this man is a TOXIC LOSER and any one with one eye and half sense can see this.
He is not treating her any better than he treated you,he will NEVER TREAT ANYONE BETTER—EVICT THEM BOTH FROM YOUR MIND. It sounds to me, frankly, that THEY DESERVE EACH OTHER. I think she is a cluster B histrionic personality disorder and she THRIVES ON THE DRAMA.
You can’t convince her he is an S because she doesn’t want to believe it and everytime this round of drama goes on, she gets vindication and reward—GO NO CONTACT WITH THEM BOTH. WHATEVER IT TAKES. THEN QUIT THINKING ABOUT THEM. THIS IS GETTING BIZZARE! It certainally isn’t healthy for YOU.
((((hugs))) and my prayers for you Tami, now get down on your knees and say “Thank you God that this man and that woman are out of my life and I have a loving husband who treats me well”
Dear Dancing,
“And I don’t have the courage to leave. I fear I’ll fall apart without him. I believe that I NEED him to survive. I believe I depend on him, even though I know he has not offered emotional nurturing I want.”
Part of the game they play is to get you to believe this very thing. I really felt that lump back in my stomach when I read the above and KNOW how it feels to feel this way. I had a lot of health issues at one time. The medical community thought I was going to need a heart transplant. Did this make him wake up and be more compassionate? NO. He pretty much kept doing exactly what he wanted. Make no mistake about one thing: they can, will and DO put themselves first and the circumstances don’t matter.
My ex tries to use my son as a way to get back in. Doesn’t work.
He’s got a good portion of my family believing I am the bad one. Doesn’t work.
He cries at the drop of a hat wanting pity. Doesn’t work.
He uses our son as an excuse as to why we should be back together. Doesn’t work.
He insists I’m still in love with him and don’t know it. I just need to open my heart. Doesn’t work.
I could go on and on, but you get the drift. I operate, for the most part, on LOGIC these days, where he’s concerned because emotions are a gateway for him to do what he wants. I give my heart to those I truly trust, my children. That makes him even madder because it shows I DO have a heart, just not for him. STILL doesn’t matter!
Please keep coming back to LF. This site is amazing and has helped me so much. Everyone here has a similar story, I am finding, and is there for you when you need them.
Sending strength and healing,
Cat
I’m having trouble the past few days…I just need to rant!
I spent yesterday in my hormonal tears state…..
I HATE MY PARENTS!!!!!!
They are the most subtlely packaged, blind, fake, world pleasing ignorants on the planet!
(okay sorry….i’ts the one day of the month I need to hide under a rock!)
I know my feelings are real, I know they are there, I know the did what they did to me and participated in my ‘destruction’ with the S…….and I’m telling you…..I”M FUCKING SICK OF the lack of loyalty and covert behaviors.
I’m sick of the suble games, I’m sick of the off balance feelings of family vs the world…..i’m sick of thinking of them, I’m sick of how this affected my whole other family…….I FUCKING HATE THEM!!!!!
I hope they rot, I hope they die a slow painful death, and I hope I get notified so I can appear and say…….
OH, SUCH IS LIFE!!!!!!!
I’m feeling very vindictive this week……I want the S and parents to suffer…..I know in my heart, they will/are….but I WANT TO SEE IT!!!!
I’m angry at what they do to my kids, I’m angry about them sending a fucking card for TG and writing….whatever you guys are doing enjoy……
WTF….WHATEVER YOU GUYS ARE DOING??????? Your the parents/Gparents….and you have NO clue how your ‘family’ is spending TG??
For YEARS….I entertained the whole family…extended family up at my home…….everyone stayed here….22 of them…..for a week……My expense, my cooking, my providing activities, my cleaning, my shopping, my EVERYTHING……I get sick…divorced and I become invisible to the lot of them!!!!
Shows how shallow it all was……
AND I DON”T WANT SHALLOW in my life!
I have made great efforts to eliminate shallow…..and I am left with a thread of family shallows……
Why do I put so much creed in the word family? Family means nothing….it’s a word…..thats it
Last year (in the HELL of my life)….the card read….May your home be filled with warmth and tradition….
WTF….WARMTH….I have no money to heat the fucking home……..
TRADITION….WTF…..for 28 years……my tradition was with a man who abused me…….
WARMTH/TRADITION….
I have to eliminate them from my world….they are toxic to me….to much water has flown under the bridge and I hate them…..there is no going back, without me putting those all too familiar blinders on….I can’t deny what they did to me/us…..and continue……
Each little scratch of the scab…..
I think, to show solidarity to my feelings……I’m going to write out a Christmas ‘informational letter’ and send it to them in a fucking EASTER CARD!!!!
I used to send out the annual Christmas letter……and I haven’t since I got sick……
Last year I wrote a vial one…..of which I was greatly encouraged NOT to send…..and I didn’t…..
I think it’s time to write another…..and at least contimplate exposing the parents behaviors to all thier cherished friends…..
I won’t send it…..It might be good for me to release……
Thanks for the rant……I’m taking a deep breath!
ErinBrock,
Towanda girl. Towanda.
we build the space for the ‘family’ we deserve. and if it means we kick out the blood relatives first to make space, so be it.
I have worked intensively around family issues – and just this last few days realize that my father’s personality is permanently disordered. He took something from me, and when I am back on my feet – I am going to sue him.
one step