By | February 5, 2010 80 Comments

Will Allen Jordan, bigamist and sex offender, on the loose in New Jersey

Lovefraud has just posted a new True Lovefraud Story about Will Allen Jordan, a con man, bigamist and sex offender who, from our information, has returned to New Jersey and is trolling dating sites looking for his next victim.

I’ve heard a lot of stories about sociopaths, and this guy is one of the worst. He has the ability, often found in sociopathic cult leaders, to get into the minds of his victims and twist their thinking. He is frightening.

Will Allen Jordan had a criminal record in the United States, where he was born. In 1992, he seduced a British woman and left the country with her, moving to the UK. He was able to start a new life, but he didn’t change his ways.

In 2000, he met and seduced another woman, Mary Turner Thomson, convincing her that he worked for the CIA. Her story is truly harrowing, and she wrote a book about it called The Bigamist—The True Story of a Husband’s Ultimate Betrayal.

Jailed in the UK, free in the USA

In 1997, Jordan was convicted in the UK of sex offenses against a child and served time. In 2006, he was convicted of failing to register as a sex offender, bigamy and other offenses. He was released in May 2009, and deported back to the United States.

When he got here, he immediately signed up for and started trolling for new victims. He found them. I know, because I spoke to them.

Unfortunately, he’s still out there. And—get this—he doesn’t have to register as a sex offender in New Jersey. Apparently, the New Jersey Megan’s Law applies only to people who were convicted in the United States. His conviction in the United Kingdom doesn’t count.

Will Allen Jordan targets single mothers of young daughters. I hope if any of them have met him online, they Google his name and find Lovefraud.

Read the True Lovefraud Story:

Convicted sex offender and bigamist deported from the UK, returns to New Jersey

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Listen to the female intuition, weigh it up against the great conversation!!! if you are wondering about him scratching your head then it’s a sign of fraud
This guy…. is the type of guy I would like to see dangled by his balls over piranha fish infested waters


…we should be writing revenge fantasies together 😉

Elizabeth Conley

Maybe Drew Peterson will finally be convicted of something:


a number of the comments in response to the article Elizabeth posted use the terms, Psychopath and Narcissist. A suprise and a good one.

I wouldn’t have known what a sociopth/psychopath was until i was spathed. Funny thing though – I called it quickly when i knew that I had been conned, and long before I knew the extent of the con. Somewhere in my mind there was the concept of ‘without conscience’. And when i asked myself the question, ‘who would do such a thing’ (pretend to die), the only answer was: someone without conscience.

And then I started to read. I searched for quite a while before I found lovefraud. First, I read pieces of the psychopath next door, and a bit about con artists and internet death bloggers and sock puppets. I remember a friend telling me that she had hear an interview on the radio with a psychiatrist who worked with psychopaths in psychiatric institutions. He said that he knew who the psychopaths were as, of all the people who asked him for money in a day, it was the psychopath who he gave it to.

there was frightfully little on the net – I kept googling fraud and finally some site used the term ‘love fraud’ and I googled it and found this site.

Which tells me that we need to do more to optimize this site. And that we need to make more resources on the net. Even small blogs that are optimized – with basic info., and linking them all together. Dr. Steve never came up when i was looking and his site should be optimized for N/P/S also.

I don’t actually know how to do the optimization (so that sites come up immediately when a set of terms are googled. there are key words to use in blogs so that search engines, like google, find your site fast and put it at the top of the list) , but I think I will learn now. I have had to learn a lot about the internet since being targeted by the spath. I am like that with tech – only learn a new skill if i have to. 😉

Discovering sociopathy certainly is a big moment, and I don’t think the bell goes off until one has been involved.

In my case, I was in such denial that I never really looked. I read up on male depression ( a great book, but kept me seeing him as the victim when I was trying to figure it out “I don’t want to talk about it”…read books on mariage, phsycology etc, all to no avail)

But I did start getting really into geopolitics after 9/11 and started to dig into what was casuing our or problems, and the digging led me to corporations, which led me to the movie “The Corporation” which studies corporations under the lens of the sociopath. Excellent film. Anyhow, I bacame active in groups working to reign in corporate power etc etc, and STILL did not see that I was living with a spath.

Then one day, I have no idea what triggered it- I ordered Dr Stuarts book, The Sociopath Next Door. I had already used the term “emotional autism” to discribe my ex- but still didn’t get it.

And while I was reading the book? He was completely unperturbable. No reaction. A blank.

So, One Step, I agree, this site should be embedded in lots of different links, maybe right on places like Mate One-but unfortuately, most of us can’t see it till it slaps us in the face, really really hard.


One step said

“I wouldn’t have known what a sociopth/psychopath was until i was spathed”

Most of us agree that we all thought a S/P was that random mass murderer out there. Most of us never knew that a S/P could be the “great” guy we are dating or the new boss we just met or the parent who is suppose to love and nurture us.

STEP ONE – Figure out ways to bring awareness to all walks of life. Especially (in my opinion) the teenage children of the world who are about to embark on society – virtually alone – like we were – without any tools to protect them in outside/adult relationships.

How do you stop the cycle – if it starts at home – at a very young age?
Discovering Sociopathy is one thing and often its way too late once we have. How do we avoid getting involved with sociopathic relationships at all. How did we not know about them? Whose job is it to bring awareness? The school? The family? The religious systems? The Media? The Web? Whats best and what are we waiting for?


I think child/ teen awareness is key – kids with low self esteem and not much parental support must be more at risk in adult life to sociopaths… even if they are ‘successful’, because they dont have the basic ‘tools’.

I think school could be the place for more emphasis or training in how to deal with ‘manipulative people’ (everyone is so scared of the word sociopath) how to have strong boundaries, more focus on building self esteem…

I think that talking more openly particularly in schools about general mental health and well being would be great – not just for spotting relationships with people who would be harmful to you, but in recognising the signs that something needs attention within yourself.

everyone is so scared of talking about psychological issues in case they get tarred with the crazy brush – so its kind of taboo – but more open discussion generally would maybe make it easier for people to better understand all kinds of mental health issues /pathologies and that they are quite common….including malignant ones.


Why don’t we start a thread to talk about this very idea – a marketing plan for educating people about soicopathy.

let’s really start developing this.


I had no idea about what I was dealing with , with my family, and the sociopath, until I came here… yet I lived all those years, knowing there was something wrong, that life at home was painful, that I was being hurt, and without a clue what to call it or how to deal with it ( its hard enough when you do know). There must be teachers and social workers all over the world watching the same scenarios play out with children time and again…. but not naming it and giving them the tools so they even stand a chance… where is the missing link?


If mental health and education professionals recoginzed sociopathy ( which I assume they dont or they would do something) they could pick up on both the at risk of being manipulated and the at risk of being the manipulator at a young age.(I am not very clever so just thinking about this has made my brain go fall out … whats the missing link – evidence of sociopathic / narcissistic personalities? Enough to prove that it exists? Or is it a cultural thing within the psychological health profession, that they wont ‘commit’ to it…?)


I guess no one can do anything unless it’s seen as ‘REAL’.


hello i’ve been reading articles in this site for awhile now and first it was just the articles that related to me. then all of them. and then the comments too, which was when i got to know you all. there is so much not known that needs to be. so many figure that somehow, -she must have known-. but i’ve learned alot from the articles and the posts written and i really had no idea. and although i have very different issues, i feel like i’ve gotten to know you all by your posts and it has made me re-think everything i thought i knew about things.

here is something of what is happening in our very corrupt state and while before i may have at one time have had a negative view of Kim Rothstein, which people are attacking her right now for, because of the enlightening experience here i realize what she really must be going through now and how she could have been with him and really not have known. like the rest of us she was taken for a ride but it’s so much worse for her.

coming here to LF for different issues, i got more than i came for because i have had to change my assumptions on people and situations based on all that i’ve learned from you all. thank you for educatating me. Right now i would hope that Kim Rothstein finds her way here and realize she is not alone.

i am very honored to meet you all.

Ox Drover

Dear Skol,

Welcome to LF, I’m glad you have found your way here and I hope that others who need the knowledge and support find their way here as well.

Learning about psychopaths is only part of the process but knowledge does = power, but also learning about ourselves, helps us heal and regain our power.

God bless, and again, WELCOME!


Thanks for sharing that story Skolslave.

Wouldnt it be wonderful if in Kims prepared speech (or any of the many who have stood before a camera or have been interviewed about a love-murder or business scheme/fraud or political drama ) she could say – many of you may not know about the term snakes in suits – or Sociopaths in the business world — or what its like to unknowingly be in a personal relationship with someone like the man I married. There needs to be more awareness about these toxic people in the world as well as the people they target…and why… and how to avoid it. Imagine if she said… how many more news stories .. scandalous news conferences…like this one of the man I married will it take until the world wakes up to the reality this is going on all around us and what “this” is, attaching a name to it – a definition of it – and the truth about it- instead of focusing on the types of clothing and jewelry Im wearing or judging me. Because next its going to be a friend, a relative, your child or even you yourself who unknowingly comes across the wrath and destruction of a Sociopath.

Jake B.

blueskies says:

“If mental health and education professionals recoginzed sociopathy ( which I assume they dont or they would do something)”

that’s the problem in a nutshell!

I’m sick of watching programs like Dr Phil, Oprah, and a whole raft of current affairs programs or whatever regarding these predators. I’m sick of the “limp wristed attitude that exists!..does anyone have any balls??….. It’s an exercise in sheer frustration as I scream at the TV…’the guy is a friggin psychopath you idiots!…don’t you get it!!??”

What is it? I missing something?

Joe Public needs to be informed NOW!!….enough of dancing around the topic and not calling it for what it is…..informed professionals gestimate it’s about 1 to 3% of the population….well I reckon it’s in plague proportions from my experiences.

….and how do I inform my children without scaring the crap out of them?….there really needs to be a book catering to teenagers….because when I think of my children and wonder who they may come across in their lives, it does my head in.


Jake B.

I’ve had “required reading” for my teenagers right here at Lovefraud.

Just some of the articles.

Also, I came to the conclusion I may risk scaring the crap out of them, but its worth the risk to have them educated and informed by me – rather than find them at the mercy of psychopath. WE NEED TO INFORM OUR TEENAGERS, schools arent, doctors arent…we need to call it for what it is with them in the best age-appropriate way possible.

There are books you can also give them to read. With what they are exposed to out there, and in the movie theatres and through peers – its never too late to teach them how to protect themselves, look for red flags – and practice self-awareness..

Just think if our parents took that leap with us we may have been better prepared /had the tools to deal with removing ourselves from the situation/relationship much sooner.

Jake B.

Hi learnthelessoon,

thank you for your reply……

As most of us here are abundantly clear that children even at this early age are dealing with this already….the precursor to this condition is bullying….I wouldn’t say all bullies, but it’s a good indicator.

Maybe there should be a link on LF regarding books and topics suitable from children.


Jake – Thats a great idea! Also for now, if you type the word bullying in the upper left search box you may find some helpful articles.


Some of you are again throwing this responsibility at teachers … I just want to remind you that teachers are already expected to save the world and realistically can’t take any more on their shoulders. Teachers are expected to instill moral values, to guide in spirituality, to focus on child protection and advocate for child rights as well as be counsellors to families in crisis, assisting with accessing community resources and supports etc etc etc
Enough already!

This is EVERYONE’S responsibility – not just teachers. You may not know, but teachers are highly controlled by central sources in what they can and cannot teach about – if you would have teachers include material on sociopaths in their curriculum then perhaps you best lobby the educational authorities in your area – teachers could get into a lot of trouble professionally in going outwith recommended and mandated curriculum topics.

Why are they expected to be the saviors of society? So many responsibilities that were once the domain of family to fulfil have been put on the shoulders of teachers – it isn’t fair. No wonder droves of them are leaving the profession. No other profession is expected to give so much for free.

Why don’t we expect doctors to extend their appointments for free by five minutes to investigate and educate on sociopaths? Or counsellors and therapists? Or social workers? Teachers cannot do it all – I think society has a really unrealistic view of what is possible for one human to do in a teaching role.

Some of my best friends are teachers and they are exhausted every week in trying to sort out problems for students that really aren’t their responsibility. Of course they do it because teachers are ethical, but why don’t we hold other professions to those ridiculous standards????

I agree that education needs to start early so people don’t get into these harmful relationships, but education needs to be backed with resources. Just imagine a child at age nine recognising ‘hey that’s how my mom or dad acts’ when they find out about sociopaths. Are Child Protective Services ready to step in and support that child when they make that disclosure and reach out for help? Are they even aware of such things as sociopaths?

As far as I can see in most countries the agencies protecting children are struggling to cope, and in reports in the media I have never ever seen them mention a personality disorder – maybe that’s where education needs to start – so our protective agencies start to realise that people who abuse their kids might just have a personality disorder. There are some researchers out there who think PDs are the root of ALL domestic abuse and violence – I am starting to agree with that idea. If the frontline agencies picking up the pieces at the bottom of the hill have no idea about personality disorders then what hope is there???



I havent read many comments about putting ALL the responsibility on the teachers. And I certainly would only advocate any type of material on the subject matter be recommended and mandated curriculum topics. And backed with resources as well..Im not even certain the approach was to single out “PD Parents” as much as it was to give the teenagers knowledge and information about the possibility of toxic relationships going forward in their lives. I dont even know how where to begin to address the dysfunctional situations at home… I was just starting somewhere/anywhere and recollected the time in my life I wish had known about Sociopaths…as I was entering the real world…

I think we are all troubleshooting – tossing around ideas — included in that were discussions of Doctors, Teachers, Parents, Nurses, and I even thought about Guidance Counsellors taking on the responsibility of entering the classroom to “bring awareness/educate” —

It is definitely NOT the sole responsibility of the teachers and certainly not without going through the proper channels and red tape to even begin to broach how to bring awareness to these young adults.

I think everyone agrees with you – this is EVERYONES responsibility. We are just troubleshooting..

Ox Drover

It’s up to ALL of us to educate “the public” starting with our family, friends, neighbors, churches, work places, etc.

We have a responsibility to help spread the word…one person at a time….

Jake B.

I agree it’s everyone’s responsibility when it comes to teaching our children, and not just teachers.

Problem is that there needs to be more media exposure concerning this disorder….and to say it for what it is. It’s a bit like the guy that killed 6 people and had 4 wives. Dr Phil calls him an S.O.B….good one doc!!!…how about putting a damn label on it, so we know what we’re dealing with!!…..not that I’m picking on Dr Phil, but he’s part of the media.

Ask yourself this… many times when you’ve mentioned, psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, in conversation, and people look at you as if you have two heads?

Why does it have to come to this?…..all the good people are here for one reason, and for one reason only PSYCHOPATHS!!…..

I rest my suitcase


Hens – boy oh boy…oh boy… I got the creepy crawlers reading about your teacher…thank goodness you got placed in another class!! Just goes to show you no profession is exempt from having PD’s in there somewhere too. What a mess


“Ask yourself this” many times when you’ve mentioned, psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, in conversation, and people look at you as if you have two heads?”

But try mentioning the words… Cluster B personalilty disorder…in place of N/S/P ‘words’…..
See what the response it…..
Just changing the ‘words’……provokes Inquiry…..and automatically you have a captive audience!!!!
Try it…..

Jake B.


Hmmm…Cluster B…..I’ll try that next time…thanks for the tip


It gets the attention we need….rather than the looks of …yeah,yeah….say whatcha gotta say, but I ain’t gonna listen. Get over it…..effect.


Midlife and everyone – I was just thinking (or ranting!) out loud.x I am not teacher bashing ( except for Henry’s one – I dont mind if she gets a bash)

Jake said ‘I agree it’s everyone’s responsibility when it comes to teaching our children, and not just teachers.’ … nice platitude ( no offence to ANYONE just mulling stuff over), but its NOT happening. and its NOT GOING to happen in disordered families for instance ( where the children are most at risk), or communities that have their heads in the sand about it… the media deny or snigger at it…

more open discussion, less buck passing, and fingers in ears (la,la la! Its not happening!)? Like with all abuse.

Its NOT easy, but like with the French recently, public body recogition is a big step forward…

It is ridiculos o’clock here ( cant sleep…but the bird song is beautiful!)so I think I better stop typing before I cause a ruckus.



OMG….your statement about” fingers in ears…, la,la….it’s not happening”….struck a nerve.
When my daughter was in Middle School….6th grade….she was bullied relentlessly…..when she was pushed down the stairs by another girl…and punched….I got involved….called the school and she was ‘counciled’ by the school counselor about ‘how to handle bullies’…..
Her advice….(PATHETIC)….was when she was teased or bullied….put her hands over her ears and chant….LA,LA,LA,LA…..
Can you believe this!!!!
I told my daughter….if you do this….your sure to get your ass kicked!


blueskies – I started writing this this am – right after you posted. finally have a chance to get back to it – so hear goes. And btw – no such thing as ‘just a rant’ when it comes to social disorder. 😉

I remember when professionals in the legal and medical systems, and friends and families in North America didn’t understand the power a battering spouse could have over their partners. Now, most professionals and family and friend have some idea that there is a profound effect, and that getting away is very difficult and often dangerous. Most people now know the term ’domestic violence’ and many have heard the term ‘battered wife syndrome’.

And although people may not want to believe that this is the experience of someone they know, or what it really means, people now have, at least, a term with which to contextualize it – which means that a big crack was made in the system of denial and secrets that had formerly existed.

How did this change in awareness come about? I suspect, first and foremost through the work of early wave feminists. Starting with consciousness raising: the naming and articulating of experiences, then the work done to form and sustain women’s shelter, and mount public education campaigns. The work of social workers and psychologists who became interested in what was ‘new’ in their fields and developed a literature around battery contributed significant understanding, which supported changes in legislation. The work of governments was important, at all three levels, as community groups and health professionals lobbied for funds for programs and studies. The changes in legislation gave police new powers (with varying outcomes) and created laws that could be used in test cases. All of this effected/ was effected by the changing role of women in NA society, and the next generation of feminists who have gone on to be those writing, legislating, counseling, etc. in the area of battery and domestic violence.

So, writing THIS out, I see that it starts with those most affected getting together to speak truth and name things.

Next, comes the carrying of that consciousness into the world. As we live and heal we come into contact with health professionals (from our children’s doctors to social workers), our neighbors, our families, and we speak there, at the same time we create coalitions to do this outreach in a more structured way. The emergence of a tentative social understanding of domestic violence was possible because of the large number of people mobilized over time. I am looking at a 40 year arc here. Although fewer people are in relationships with sociopaths and narcissists, we have something the first and second wave feminists’ didn’t have; we have the internet.

There is a lot to be learned by looking at social movements and how they have changed the world. I think this is an informed place to start. We can create plans targeting every group of people we want to reach, and all the ways we might be able to do that.

Off the top of my head, four prime groups to reach out to would be: women’s shelters and domestic violence programs, dating sites and ’internet fraud’ sites, and teens.

We want teens to know about sociopathy? We need to start tweeting about it.


EB – my way of dealing with a bully in grad school – punch her hard and RUN!


I agree with EB that using the term Cluster B is a good starting place. It gets curiosity piqued and people want to know more.

Re Teachers = I am just having a vent – teachers in my opinion get a raw deal in modern society – I get pithed off when people talk about putting more things in schools – guess who responsibility rolls down to? Teachers – yes the people who are already doing five people’s jobs all rolled into one. A friend of mine who is in primary (elementary?) regularly spends twelve hour days sorting out the social problems that her students face that prevent them from learning – things like violence in the home, alcoholism, abuse and neglect … because funding for other departments has been cut leaving her at the coal face trying to deal with everything. Maybe this is not the case in your country but it is in mine. Social welfare agencies aren’t doing their part where I live so the teachers have to pick up the slack. For her sometimes this means that she gives her lunch to students or buys fruit to share with the class out of her own money so she can be sure they have enough brain fuel to get through the day. It’s sad and wrong but at least she’s trying her best to help out. I feel very bad for her. I asked her once why she gets involved – why she doesn’t just leave it at referring the matter to the appropriate agency. She replied
“While they’re figuring out whose responsibility it is to deal with and what the appropriate measures are to take, the kid is still hungry. So I give the child some food – at least they have something in their tummy to get through the day with.”

Maybe there could be a separate program running after school called ‘Life skills’ or ‘staying safe’ that deals with these kinds of issues. With all the mandatory testing and accountability issues faced by educators these days there is little time to include anything else in the already overcrowded curriculum.

I don’t know what the answer is, but we need more than just survivors speaking out about their experience. There is no funding available for this type of thing and I can see that if there was a movement towards that then discrimination issues would come up – probably linked to the Human Rights Act.

I agree that part of the problem is the media won’t use the right words – I have heard Dr Phil say SOB too – not helpful! I think part of the problem here is the lack of concensus even within the psychological / psychiatric community. How many of the sociopaths / psychopaths we were involved with had a diagnosis of conduct disorder before the age of 15? That’s just unrealistic to expect that piece of the puzzle will be present in every case.

For one thing, it would require the family knowing and recognising there was a problem with the child and it would require the family having both the time, resources and know how to seek out a diagnosis from the appropriate parties.

So needing to have an official diagnosis is a major problem. I would rather see that we have a public checklist with a cut off point – that if a person scores say 18 out of 22 then they are a ‘likely psychopath’ or a person with ‘psychopathic tendencies’. These folk are the most unlikely candidates for going for diagnosis as they think there is nothing wrong with them at all. It’s their victims that recognise the symptoms and put the pieces of the puzzle together so surely our opinion in judging pathology should count for something??

Re educating others. I do in both a professional and personal capacity.


midlife – your details are awesome. good for you!

one step


Thanks one step – this week will be the third time and I rely on participants to maintain confidentiality. I really think there should be a big focus on this but the main focus goes to other areas. The participants then take what they have learned and share it with colleagues. It’s my way for now of doing something about this injustice and danger. It isn’t much but it’s a start 🙂


One Step – your post is fantastic! And to look at other social movements and how they grew as a starting point, and tweeting is a great idea. Have you noticed anyone else out there tweeting about this already?

And Jake I think your ideas about age appropriate books or reading material on the subject of psychopathy or manipulative people (not just bullying) is great! so lets do it!;)x

ML I think that IS much! But you said that getting ‘caught’ would mean you getting the sack? So teaching professionals do not have the (training / financial) support to ‘tool anyone up’ even if they could.

I like this: ‘Maybe there could be a separate program running after school called ’Life skills’ or ‘staying safe’ that deals with these kinds of issues.’ because I think school IS the best place to learn new skills and the place where kids spend most of their time.

But I dont like this:’With all the mandatory testing and accountability issues faced by educators these days there is little time to include anything else in the already overcrowded curriculum.’ My dearest friend is a TA and I hear all of the time how little support he and the rest of the staff get, and how there aren’t enough hours in the day to deliver the quality of education they need to – and that it is very demoralising.

I think we have the same problems with our social care system here too:
I dont know if you heard of the Victoria Climbie case, where a child was shockingly let down by a system that just does not work. The ‘blame’ is tossed about like a hot potato, and we hear all kinds of stories about social workers being too snowed in with paper work to be effective, but will anything improve?It better!!

Another thing I am realising – as I read this thread is that I am guilty of not speaking out as much as I could so I am a blooming hypocrite – Jake’s point about ‘people look at you as if you have two heads’ when you mention the words, well this HAS put me off just being frank about it…


…I should embrace my two heads! Two heads are better than one after all! (sorry couldn’t resist!;)x


Thanks blueskies for the encouragement – yes I am certain I would be severely censured for including this content because it is not explicitly mandated by management. But I think it is important so I take some risks 😛

We all speak when we feel able to. There are people I don’t tell about the abuse because they know him (or think they do) and wouldn’t believe it – so I would just put myself in a bad light by telling them. I think we have to be careful WHO we tell and HOW we tell them. I think it was EB who made a good point that we are only really effective in our telling once we are out of the terrible pain of being victimised. I think this is very true. When I couldn’t speak about it without bursting into tears – well I don’t think my account would have been considered valid and effective back then. I am still upset about it all but can now speak about it rationally and calmly and have taken the time to read the literature and form some opinions about the disorder.

We have the same problem in my country when a child is severely hurt or killed – each department and social worker or case worker plays hot potato trying to land the blame with someone else. The sad part is when investigated the usual cause is put down to ‘communication breakdown between agencies’ = now wouldn’t you think in the digital age where we have such spectacular tools, they could invent some kind of alert system that notifies all interested parties when something happens with a child or their family. eg the family doctor who examines the bruising could put an alert into a system that then alerts the police and child welfare agencies. Of course the problem is we don’t have mandatory reporting – it is OPTIONAL and people are so afraid of Privacy laws that they fail to act when it is needed.

Some people are so traumatised by their experience that they choose never to speak of it again in an effort to get past it. I think that is another voice lost, but I have to respect that individual choice – each person must do what they feel they can.If they feel they can do nothing … well it is a loss but that is their choice.

Blueskies I guarantee you that once you start speaking confidently about psychopaths and using the research you have read about to bolster what you say, people won’t look at you like you have two heads. And if they do, it’s because they only have half a brain!

When you feel able, try it out. You’ll be amazed. Most of the people I have talked to have really ‘got it’ – I ensure they have by the end of the discussion. I also aim to answer their questions that come up. I have read extensively here and in other places and while no expert, this reading combined with my personal experience means I can speak confidently about this subject … I know it because I lived it. You lived it too.

I am thinking about contacting volunteer organisations like Rotary or Lions to give brief talks on psychopathy … that would really push my boundaries out and I am not sure if I am ready for it, but the thought is there. Has anyone else done something like this???



Yes I am getting more effective in talking about the whole area of psychopathy with my students. I notice when I mention it as part of the module they are studying (and I am teaching strangely enough!) as long as it is in a casual “what do you think yourself” kind of way the conversation branches out and is very interesting. Some know it in their own lives, they struggle with it, wonder about it and respond well.

I guarantee, if I told them of my own experience they would probably be tempted to conclude “She is a bit nuts” (early on, fresh after the trauma of the psychopath that entered my life I would have spent time CONVINCING people he was a psychopath)


Now I do not feel the need to PROVE IT and its after letting it go I can really talk about it in a way that invites people to comment on it, some people have never met with it and are INNOCENT, they could not comprehend it. The ones who have met with it are curious, worried and relieved to have a conversation about it. We lock together in naming it, so that if a psychopath was in the room they would feel PERTURBED only because WE ARE ONTO YOU and your HIDING PLACES SOON WILL NOT EXIST

The innocent ones are the ones who will be targeted. So I try as gently as I can to explain it, not lecture or force it down anyones throat, but to encourage connection with their feelings, trust their innate judgment and act responsibly


Midlife – I feel I am not clued up enough to speak with confidence – but I can do something about that, and you and EB are right – I think a person needs to be out of the emotion of the trauma before they are taken seriously…

Just one more waffle: Giving people tools doesnt have to be specific to certain types of abuse or after the fact… I googled manipulative people and found this list: .

Just an example.

I know this is over simplifying but how about an ‘am I being manipulated?’ tool kit for kids as an idea – and the discussion about WHY the manipulators do what they do (because they are possibly S/N/P’s) would follow on…..?

just another thought… empowering rather than ‘preaching’ usually works better doesnt it.



Thanks for a great link ~~lots of very helpful, informative, enlightening posts there. And I agree that we need to be out of the emotion of the trauma to speak about it…I like One Steps ideas on getting the message out. There really is the misconception that only serial killers are psycopaths…just as the public is beginning to understand pastors or policemen or pillar of the community types can be “wife beaters”, at some point the public has to know that the majority of psychopaths are not serial killers…knowledge is power.


Blueskies – One-step – Midlife — You rock!!!! You really rock this thread! VERY inspiring – Very [email protected]@-kicking to motivate getting in gear!

EB – the “teenagers” would have a blast “learning” from you!!!! LOL

Really everyones thoughts here are so informative and inspirational — I really hope we get something in motion to begin changing the way the world operates – need to know basis 🙁


Sign me up!


Hi everyone,

Here is a stunning story about an israeli polygamist, Goel Ratzon, who had 21 wifes (and dozens of children).

“Ratzon’s women speak of their love for ‘special’ man and caring husband”

Ox Drover

I watched the CBS evening news (half hour) and they had a story on about the REAL LIFE Erin Brockovitch and how she did “tough love” with her drug addicted daughter—cut off the money, cut off the enabling….at the end of the segment, they asked if the dtr thought her mom was being “mean” and she (dtr) said “Well, you can keep on giving them money and then ask yourself how “mean” you were, AT THEIR FUNERAL”

They also highlighted Nancy Kerogan’s brother killing her father in an “alcohol induced rage”—and the fact that her parents SUED him in 2008 for oveer $100,000 they had given him over the years.

Never once did they mention that it isn’t JUST THE ALCOHOL OR DRUGS, that there cann be some personality disorders in there being “self medicating.”

I still think too many people (public AND professionals) BLAME the drugs or alcohol for the ABUSE and so on, when being an addict does not mean you are NOT ALSO a psychopath. How many of us know the guys/gals in AA who are sober as a judge and STILL psychopaths, or as AA calls them, “Dry drunks”—-sorry for the rant. Maybe I need to quit watching the news again! Bury my head in the sand! LOL

Thanks for the linkk Nicolaid. ((hugs)))



You’re right on with this…and again, I have a story 😛

My ex adamantly denied ever having a drug/drinking problem in the past, although when he and I met, he said he ‘didnt drink anymore.’ That was fine cause I dont drink much at all. Over the time spent together, he had slowly told me of this ‘past’ he had which involved drugs (psychadelics in particular) and drinking at least a beer or two a night-although, he ‘gave up’ drinking ‘a long time ago.’

His behavior problems began around the age of 14 or 15 when he ‘ran away’ to be with a woman who lived in Tennesssee whom he was going to marry. He had ALWAYS had problems with impulse control, judgement, seeking excitement, boredom, etc. He’s ADHD and has a dx of Antisocial Personality Disorder at the age of 17.

My point is this…I think the pressure to be ‘normal’ in society in order to keep a job and whatever degree of a ‘life’ he has is overbearing at times. HE IS NO VICTIM…let me get that out there. I think these people KNOW they are disgusting and sometimes the self medicating just numbs them to their disgustingness.

These people are ABUSERS first and foremost. Strip them of all their titles, and you STILL have a scary, sociopathic person who does what he does BECAUSE THATS WHO HE IS. The alcohol and drugs are symptoms of the disorder-the disorder is who they are…and who they are is disgusting and pathetic.

Ox Drover


Boy did you get a WINNER!!!! A “diagnosed” psychopath! Wow! I’ve only seen a couple of them “live” myself, the rest are “Me diagnosed”—but for a while mental health diagnosis and medication is what I did for a living–but you know—sometimes I think those of us that are “educated” and “should know better” are the most likely to become conned!

I felt TERRIBLE that I had been conned so badly and so many times, but you know, When I came here to LF I was in the company of REALLY SMART and REALLY WELL EDUCATED (better than me) Women and men who had been JUST as conned as I was— and “just as” means that They were TOTALLY conned, it doesn’t mean how MUCH money they were ripped off for or whatever they lost materially.

The con is TOTAL—but the getting out from under the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) is up to each of us, and you know, your Ps Mother will never get out of the FOG and that is a shame, but she isn’t any worse deluded that I have been, she is just in it longer, but THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME—God knows I did it for DECADES. It isn’t about being smart or not smart, or educated or not educated, they turn whatever we are or have into fuel for their own bonfire.

It is like being in a burning building, where the only way out is to run through the flames and we have the choice to stay and let it burn down on our heads or duck our heads and run for our lives. Better to be burned a bit on the way OUT than to stay there and roast alive.

I know there are people who have drug or alcohol problems who are NOT personality disordered but unfortunately sometimes it is not easy to sort the sheep from the goats.

My egg donor’s brother, that I lovingly refer to as UNCLE MONSTER was a Psychopath, delux version, and she has enabled him and trivalized his monsterous behavior for my entire life, or covered it up, and that was what eventually gave me so much grief over having holidays with him that I just about turned off to any holiday and finally rather than rujin my holidays with him at her house, I would go to the ends of the earth to celebrate my holidays so I didn’t have to listen to her caterwalling about how “unforgiving I was and how I was going to hell becdause I wouldn’t forgive him” (read TRUST) so I would pack up my kids and go to California for the holidays or with my living history group, ANYTHING but a holiday with Uncle Monster.

I remember her crying and guilting me about how I was RUINING HER HOLIDAY–I asked her once about HER ruining MY holiday and she didn’t have an answer for THAT. I can’t believe I allowed her to do that to me for YEARS–all that crap caused me to cry buckets of tears every holiday for years and you know, looking back on it, I can almost LAUGH about it now, and wish I had taken the iron skillet and BOINKED myself a good one for falling for that FOG! LOL

And you know, I’m getting smarter! LOL She is I am sure very very sad that she has to spend holidays with her maid’s family because she doesn’t have a living relative that will either invite her or come to her house. Holidays are “low key” for me now, just CALM and PEACEFUL! That’s enough! (((hugs)))


I married a bigamist and nobody cares. The DA’s say a man with two wives has been punished enough and the lawyers say that the best thing to do is let it go and the big guys are doing an eval….

I know he has a history of violence and revenge and they won’t
talk to me about protection but the attorneys.

Who is getting punished and for what?
Is it just mt State?


Don’t let any of those fools shut you down.

Keep plugging along… WILL find an open door.
You need perseverience and patience…..and DON”T EVER LET ANYONE DISCOURAGE your mission!!!!!

You know what you have to do!

Keep your head up.


Silvermoon, I’m with EB on this: do not take that bullshit lying down!!! That one quote has been the perpetual slap in the face, and it is not allowed to continue. Take that quote, and pass it on to the State Atty General’s Office! TELL THAT OFFICE that you demand action and follow it up with media contacts!!! At this point, I’d be calling every news station, radio station, and network programs that I could think of! 20/20, ABC Good Morning America (they WANT bigamy stories), etc.

Donna took her experience with that jackass and turned it into one of the most incredible success stories I’ve ever heard about. YOU can do the same thing, Silvermoon – you can. You are better than the spath, stronger than the spath, and BRIGHTER than the spath could ever hope to be. Take this puppy and run with it.

Brightest blessings!!!!!!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

I agree with Buttons on this, go to the state AGs office and if that doesn’t help to the governor’s office and the MEDIA. Get it in the lkocal paper and the state’s biggest one if you can and onm the local 6 p.m. news, or NANCY GRACE’S program or any kind of publicity that you can find! EMBARASS them if you can.


A local Woman, Ms. S. Moon, is condemned to life “married to a bigamist” Ms. Moon says that because she married a bigamist who is in jail/prison somewhere in the Federal prison system and whom she can’t find, she is forever condemned to be “married” to him though the marriage was never legal in the first place.

She states that Our local DA, Joe Smoe, says that he doesn’t have time to procesecute her bigamous husband for this crime and that SHE will have to do so herself. Well, since she can’t find Her husband who is apparently being held incognito by the Feds, she has no way to legally unhook her name from this illegal marriage. Must Ms. Moon continue to be handcuffed to this criminal? Tune in tomorrow for more on this interesting story!”


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