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By | July 18, 2010 53 Comments

Love Fraud: A gift to all survivors of sociopaths

Editor’s note: The following is a review of “Love Fraud – How marriage to a sociopath fulfilled my spiritual plan,” by Donna Andersen

By Matt

It may take a village to raise a child, but it takes just one woman to bring down a sociopath. And Donna Andersen became a one-woman wrecking crew when she set out to seek justice against her sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery. Ms. Andersen has written a riveting story of her simultaneous journeys seeking justice against Montgomery, and inner peace from the havoc he wreaked in her life.

Ms. Andersen was forced — by both internal and external facts and circumstances — to pursue two very separate yet intertwined paths. The first path was through the US and foreign court systems as she battled her ex-husband trying to collect her $1 million plus divorce judgment from him. As Ms. Andersen realized that the justice system had failed her and would continue to fail her, she took matters into her own hands. From an emotional standpoint Ms. Andersen had to adopt the policy that “to get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath.” And boy did she.

Ms. Andersen turned her energy into getting back everything Montgomery had stolen from her and then some. Trying to find records of where Montgomery was hiding his money, Ms. Andersen showed pure resourcefulness in breaking into and clearing out a storage bin belonging to Montgomery and his new wife. Trying to shake money out of Montgomery, Ms. Andersen showed unadulterated moxie when she teamed up with another of Montgomery’s victims to convince Montgomery the other woman was pregnant and needed money. And to expose Montgomery to all of Australia and New Zealand as a fraudulent war hero, Ms. Andersen showed pure ruthlessness. Yes, Donna Andersen out sociopathed a sociopath.

The second path Ms. Andersen took was her spiritual journey to recovery and healing. Ms. Andersen makes a very convincing case that while none of us takes the same path to healing and recovery from a sociopath, we all ultimately have to find a path.

Ms. Andersen pursued her spiritual journey with the help of energy healers, psychics and past life regression. Being a hard-headed realist, I at first thought Ms. Andersen’s path to spiritual healing was a “bit out there.” But, as I read her story, I saw that her two-pronged approach to recovery — the factual and the spiritual — are both necessary components for recovery.

Ms. Andersen’s message for me was that in order to reclaim your life from a sociopath you must be proactive. Once you become proactive, the spiritual healing follows. When I looked at my recovery through the prism of Ms. Andersen’s, I realized that after I did everything I could legally do to the sociopath I had been involved with, I had come to a place of acceptance and could move on with my life. Or, to put it another way, once you expose the sociopath and putting him in a real or de facto prison, you will be freed from the prison that the sociopath has made of your life. Ms. Andersen’s powerful story is not only a gift to all survivors of sociopaths, but an inspiration.

 


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Matt:

You know, it’s funny – when I was going through everything, trying to find my money – I didn’t feel like I was “out-sociopathing a sociopath.” I felt like I was desperately trying to survive.

But looking back – I guess you’re right. The difference, I suppose, is motivation. My ex sociopathed me to take what he wanted and felt entitled to. I sociopathed him in an effort to recover what was stolen from me.

ErinBrock

Matt and I are of like minds when it comes to sociopathic damage control.

Donna, Your right on with “out Sociopathing a sociopath”.
Motivation is the differntiating factor.
Spaths do it as a way of life……survivors must do it to recover assets and expose the behaviors and person.
‘Out spathing a spath’, ‘calling on your inner sociopath’, ‘backspathing’ or ‘counter controlling’ a spath……whatever you call it…..the difference is….we have a choice and keep a balance. All of the above are tactics used/needed to expose a sociopath.
You gotta fight fire with fire, because they just walk right over any fire line we can cut, on the landscape of our lives.

rochelle

As I am recent in going through this journey, I am realizing what I was married to. He is a textbook case. I would love to get back at him some way, but I think the best thing to do is just move on with my life. I moved out of state to be with him, and felt the stress, literally felt the stress from day one. The divorce, of course, was ugly. I consider myself lucky that I was only out $11,000. Less than a month after signing the final divorce papers, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So here I am, not knowing many people here and needing help. He turned his back on me. That was my ‘ah-ha’ moment. I began to comprehend his level of inhumanity. After a few texts and lunches, I realized the ‘no contact’ rule is best. I wish I could warn the next victim. I was his 4th wife. I wish the public knew more about this horrible personality disorder. I wish they could be cured.

Ox Drover

Dear Girlfromnowere,

There are others here who have also experienced cancer, strokes, their kids kidnapped and more of the above…you are NOT ALONE.

Keep on reading and learning and applying that knowledge to your healing and you will overcome! God bless. And, welcome to LoveFraud.

Truthspeak

Matt, Donna’s experiences had a Divine Purpose, I believe. She’s shown incredible determination and resourcefulness in ways that I can’t even fathom.

More than any amount of money that she was legally awarded, the upside to Donna’s experiences was to build a community of supportive survivors in a virtual world. Without this site and the strong counseling therapy in the aftermath, I don’t even want to entertain where I would be, right this moment.

Girlfromnowhere, welcome to LoveFraud and I’m sorry that you were compelled to find your way to a site that addresses sociopathy and recovery. But, you’ve found a tremendous source of information and healing.

Getting back at the exspath is a fantasy that I entertain only in my mind. I’ve been advised by numerous sources that I will never, ever, EVER recovery a dime of what the exspath stole from me, and that’s just the way it is. I don’t like this fact, either.

But, what the exspath did not succeed in doing was to cause my premature death, or the destruction of my soul. That has no pricetag, and I’m grateful for every day in recovery – even the bad days.

Brightest blessings

Delores

Lovefraud is a lifesavor for us all. I came here today to save my ife and I guess it worked.

I gave up yesteday and wanted to just put myself out of my misery. I survived and recovered once when I got out of my marriage to the psychopath many years ago but I lost the last battle recently when he took away my daughter and she took away my grandchildren.

I am helping my terminally ill sister who used the psychopath for her lawyer and named my daughter POA and executor. I know I owe them nothing but I owe myself the dignity of doing the right thing and that does not include abandoning my sister or grandchildren.

The mutual pain of seeing my grandchildren is killing me. I see them confused and afraid to approach me. I have asked my daughter several times if we will still be able to see them after my sister is gone. This seems to me to be a valid question since my ability to control my pain requires a knowledge of the facts. It requires not getting up false hope and not giving up either…a very emotional and fine line to walk. The second guessing is like constant torture. And it is almost unbearable while watching my sister die.

I always get the same recorded answer: “I do not know and I refuse to discuss it with you now. Nancy (my sister) is the only thing that matters now.” And it seems true as she would rather get a babysitter than let me help and give my love to my grandchildren. I asked her yesterday if she ever considered the possibility that losing my daughter and my grandchildren might be worse to me than the death of my sister. She just looked at me and said nothing. And believe me, losing my sister is the worst thing I have ever had to endure except losing my daughter and grandchildren…even having lost parents, a brother and being involved with a psychopath abuser and sperm donor for my children.

I have invoked daughter’s wrath again by trying trying to sooth my sobbing grandaughter and let her know I always want to see her and will always love her and I do not know why her mommy and daddy will not let us be together. It seems obvious to all concerned, that I am cut out of their life but I am vilified again for putting the truth into words.

God grant me the ability to get through this triple tribulation to avoid the psychopath lawyer, to win my daughter back from the psychopath’s mind control or at least to live long enough to share my love with my grandchildren again someday.

ElizabethBennett

Matt-great article
Donna-you displayed an incredible amount of guts in what you do did and I admire it. Your spath was way worse than my N and I just curled up into a ball and fell apart. I am go grateful to you for making this site so the rest of us can learn and break the cycle.
Girlfromnowhere-Welcome to LF. I’m sorry you have to be here but it will help you and teach you infinitely and provide you the support that you need to get through it.
Betsy-I really hope your situation can be resolved so you can see your grandchildren

ElizabethBennett

This doesn’t have much to so with spaths, but I find it very hard to finally figure out my flaws and how I contributed to getting narc’d. I’m frustrated because I have figured out a lot of why I do what I do but I don’t know how to change it and not do it anymore.

Delores

girlfromnowhere,

You are lucky you got away and better off without him. He belongs to the dispiciable psychopath group. I know of two examples…

The third wife of the psychopath sperm donor in my life was abandoned by him when she had just had most of her liver removed because of liver cancer. He went on vacation to Australia for a month then came back and hired a moving van to take what he went from their house. Fortunately she is fine now. He did the moving van trick on me too and cut off the phone leaving me and his two little children feeling violtated and randed without a phone even for emergency.

Psychopath later convinced my daughter he did the “right thing” with wife number three because they were not getting along and she was better off without him. She was better off without him but that in no way makes it “the right thing for him to do”. It just proves he is a dispicible psychopath.

My best friend was also abandoned when she had breast cancer at age 29. She also found out she was pregnant and had to get an abortion to save her life. She too survived…she is now a 30 year cancer survivor and a fantastic person.

They are out there and they are dispicible and leathal. Get as far away from him as you can and never look back. I wish you the best.

darwinsmom

ElizabethBennett,

Have you ever read “Women who love psychopaths?”

I fit the temperament and personality of that victim profile, and it made a lot of sense to me. It made me see how my own qualities and strenghts and gifts were used against me and I came to be attracted and misguided in the first place. However, these traits are very fundamental, and some of it is unchangeable… I cannot alter my degree of extravertness. I cannot alter my ability to bond deeply, and when I do bond I cannot be ‘not loyal’, ‘not giving’, etc… I would have wronged and ultimately destroy myself deeply mentally, emotionally, spiritually and psychologically if I were to even try to alter those fundamental traits of myself.

However, it did teach me insight on how those traits in the wrong hands could be turned against me, as well as how those traits can be the reason for being attracted to the wrong men – a bad picker. Equipped with that knowlege, along with the red flags, I decided it’s possible to be myself, remain myself, but stay out of te hot water, or jump out asap.

I had an interesting and honest conversation with my best mate last night. Coming February he’ll turn 40, and in March I’ll turn 39. We’ve admitted to ourselves and each other that we are struggling with our self-image of attractiveness. I recognize that this would be an ideal vulnerability for being flattered and conned by spaths. We also discussed what in our experience helps to improve that vulnerability, and what we ourselves can do about it. In the end, we ended up in my kitchen, cooking together while dancing on music blaring through my boxes (Graceland by Paul Simon). Then we laughed about it, and admitted it’s been a long time since we danced spontaneously in each other’s living room (with no party going on). Personally I expect that by the time I do hit 40, I’ll be totally fine with it. I actually regard it as a sexy, attractive age. But at 38, 39 I suddenly feel like in between stages… not really 30-something anymore, not really 40-something yet. It’s a similar feeling to when I was 15-16: not a child anymore, not much of an adolescent let alone an adult, either.

What I mean to say is that our vulnerabilities may vary and change with time, age, changes in life, etc… So, it’s not just about learning our past vulnerabilities, but also be vigilant of new vulnerabilities developing, and to pre-emptively commit ourselves to solving it ourselves.

Delores

ElizabethBennett,

Many of the things that get us into messes with these crazies are not “flaws” but attributes in normal life and relationships. May I suggest Sandra Brown’s book Women Who Love Psychopaths? She has an entire chapter on the attributes of fine women who attract these monsters. It is not because we are flawed, but because we are strong, trusting, loving, interesting, intelligent and they use all of that against us to purposely destroy us.

Just read the comments here and you will not see flaws, you will see intelligence, wisdom, strenght and committment to recovery and taking these predators down. Please focus on your strenght, let go of the idea of your flaws and see his evil. Become another proud survivor. We all have doubt and flounder at times but we have learned that we are not at fault and we are not flawed because this happened to us. If we happen to have a little flaw as everyone does, we just see it and work on fixing it.

Thanks for your caring and concern for me. Be aware it is a wonderful thing to have care and concern for others and the personality disordered person in your life probably used it against you. He has the flaws, not you.

Delores

Darwinsmom.
We agree and posted about the same book at the same time. LOL 😉

darwinsmom

betsybugs,

Yes, we did. It was very empowering to read!!! And I read it the week after I was discarded and realized the ex was a psychopath.

I actually had a vision at the end of the temparement chapter: I had a vision of a bullet being shot at my reflection in a mirror, an assassination attempt upon my chore self, and me holding the gun (my temperament and personality being the gun). But I could also see that it had been the spath who had put the gun there in my hands and had pointed my hands in the direction of my reflection. And most importantly, as I heard and saw the glass of the mirror shatter into thousand pieces, I immediately also knew I had already survived it. The only thing that got destroyed was the mirror, but not me, not if I let him. And by trying to alter my temperament, I would let him really turn the gun against myself. I know this, since I had an id-crisis when I was 24. It’s how I learned what is fundamental, and what is changeable, and how altering the fundamental, the temperament, is futile, harmful and self-destructive. With the mirror assassination vision I realized that all that was required from me was to ensure that I would not give another person the power anymore to use me against myself like that anymore. I have a power, and I should keep it out of the wrong hands 🙂

Hugs to you bettybugs. You are going through very rough times!

ElizabethBennett

Darwinsmom & Betsy. I believe I have read that book. I’ll have to dig out those to make sure. Right now I’m in a platonic thing that is bordering on romantic and I realize how bad I am at trusting people and I don’t want to screw things up. We’re good friends and I’ve loved her a long time and I finally feel like she is feeling the same. Even friendship with her was difficult for a long time because she doesn’t trust people either and she was very bad at reciprocating in friendship. After we had a huge fight where I pointed that out to her, she was mad at me for awhile but I think she took it to heart because she is reciprocating and becoming so much better at it the more she does it.

My issue has a little bit to do with that, but I realized that my last two relationships, with the N who brought me here, and the one before that, is that I have horribly low self esteem, and that along with my internal qualities stated by Darwinsmom, made me victim to them. But I have something else going on. I haven’t had a whole lot of relationships, but in every single one, I have been cheated on and lied to. The N who brought me here was different because he was married and I was the OW in that, which lowered myself esteem significantly more and I had to deal with the guilt from that. I think that I allowed myself in that situation because I felt like I was eventually going to be cheated on anyway, so I could just go ahead and accept a relationship with someone who was with me only part time and just get it over with.

The fact that I could think that way now just appalls me so much I can’t stand it but I’ve learned a lot about myself. I have been overweight for years-since my mid 20s and I’m now 40. I realize that I spent years using my weight as a defense mechanism to insulate myself to keep from being hurt. I was sexually harassed a ton when I was young because I had a really good body before I was sexually assaulted at 21. Even though I hate myself carrying all this weight, I feel like it protects me in a way. Because if I’m physically fit and height/weight proportionate that people will want to date me and then they will cheat on me. This is the most twisted thing ever and it bothers me so much but I don’t know what to do about it. My subconscious is telling me these things. That’s the only reason I can think of for hating the weight but not doing the work to change it.

The woman that I care about seems to be more concerned about who I am as a person and tells me how beautiful I am all the time but those thoughts start creeping in. Since she is a lot older and has never been with a woman, loving her isn’t easy because she gets scared sometimes and starts to pull back. I’ve had to learn to not have a panic attack over it and give her a few days because everytime it happens, things go right back to normal. At times I’ve felt like the relationship wasn’t good for me but it’s teaching me a lot. Because of what I’ve gone through with the cheating it’s given me a tremendous fear of abandonment so I tend to get too needy and clingy sometimes and I’m afraid it scares people away, and if it’s going to scare anyone it would be her. I feel like I tend to want to move things to fast and it’s helping me to slow down. But I do get afraid sometimes that my weight will eventually impact things with her because the closer we get it will somehow get in the way. I really want things to continue in the way that they’re going because we seem to be really good for each other. We have a lot in common and I can really notice a change in both our happiness levels since we started getting really close.

The whole using my weight as a defensive mechanism is really bothering me and I would love to figure out how to stop it because it doesn’t make any kind of sense.

Sunflower

ElizabethBennett:

“The whole using my weight as a defensive mechanism is really bothering me and I would love to figure out how to stop it because it doesn’t make any kind of sense. ”

EB, I might be wrong about this, but I believe underneath this mechanism there is shame and the ego’s identification of self. Take a look on that and you might resolve it.

darwinsmom

EB,

As long as you don’t love yourself for the major chunk part, it will be hard to see clear and make any judgement. I would also be very careful of putting blame on yourself for being fearful and thereby sabotaging relationships. I’m not saying you don’t self-sabotage relationships. But it can also be used as a stick to blame yourself and not admit the responsibility of others that you are not trusting them.

I was clammed shut with several of my budding affairs before the spath, because of a giant broken heart once. I didn’t trust the men I fell for to fall in love with me, or even if they did to commit to me. So, I gave these men no emotional feedback whatsoever. There were three men in particular in the many years before the spath where this happened. One of them is someone I now regard as a slimeball jerk. Another is stalking, pathologically lying, cheating, financial user (in other words a spath): not to me, but to his gf after me. The third one also has several red flags of a spath: again not to me, but to his gf before and after me. I did chase all three of them away: they chose another target over me. And why did they do that? Because they didn’t get emotional feedback with me. And what is the one thing, a spath needs to hook their target? They need drama, emotions, and info on the target from the target itself. All three of them slithered out of my life because they couldn’t mirror a mask to me…. LOL, and I blamed myself and my commitment fear at the time.

Unwittingly, I actually saved myself from getting deeply involved with at least one more spath – most likely two – and a certified jerk… before I even knew the crucial key to chasing spaths away: don’t feed them emotions.

When I actually did solve my reactive commitment fear, I ended up with the ex-psycho. However, this time I was equipped with a basic foundation to learn the lessons from it, and to avoid the self-blame path for the most part in the relationshit. Had something similar happened with the other three, it would have been much harder for me to learn the lesson as I have done now boundary and blame wise, and actually might have broken my spirit. At the very least my commitment fear protected me from the spath lesson at the wrong timing in my life.

In short, yes you may be paranoid, but that doesn’t mean there might be good reasons for you to be paranoid. Don’t force yourself and blame yourself over it. It does protect you from harm when you are very fragile and vulnerable inside. It just means that you are not ready yet and do not have the skills yet to size up a relationshit adequately. I would seek therapy if you can for the issues you are talking about.

There might also be two books that might help you with what you’re struggling. One is flylady’s declutter book. While her website is about decluttering the home, the book is about decluttering the mind and body and tackle the weight issue. She also uses the ‘inner child’. BTW Flylady is a survivor of an abusive relationshit with someone she herself regards as a sociopath.

The second book is about finding love in yourself: fearless loving: http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Loving-simple-truths-change/dp/B000BTH5BW. The second book did help me get over my commitment fear, and helped me to start fully loving myself. In a way it finally made me ready and strong enough to get the most out of the spath lesson that was lying in wait on my lifepath for years by then.

Ana

Hi Darwinsmom and Betsybugs,
I wanted to let you know that the woman Sandra Brown was found out to be a fraud. She is not a reverend, her charity’s address is a vacant lot…she has a phd. from an online school that you can get in 48 hrs…etc…

This is the webpage if you want to check it out:

Sandra Brown MA is a Fraud

Truthspeak

Betsybugs, I’m so sorry that you’re experiencing such emotional trauma. It’s almost too much to manage.

I would like to make a gentle suggestion that letting your grandchildren know that you love them, care about their well-being, and will be there for them is an imperative. But, asking your daughter when you’ll be able to see your grandchildren is giving her as much control as anything else, and your sister’s terminal condition gives your daughter some powerful jet-fuel to pour on this fire of madness.

What I mean by this is that tragedy is either a time when people draw together in a supportive unit, or it’s a time when people who are disordered manipulate to their best interests. When you ask your daughter about seeing the grandchildren, you’re making a sincere request, especially since you’re facing an iminent loss – you want to draw your grandchildren close for a variety of good reasons. But, the daughter is using this tragic, sad time to make you feel crazy because she’s not allowing contact with your grandchildren. The more you ask her about this or press the point with her, the better she’ll be able to manipulate your well-meant effots into, “See? Didn’t I tell you she was nuts?”

I’m not suggesting that you walk away or turn your back on your grandchildren by any stretch of the imagination. What I am suggesting is that you may want to consider disengaging your emotions about this mess, for the time being.

What has happened to me with regard to my neice and nephew was that I desperately wanted to cultivate a healthy relationship with them, but my brother’s wife would not allow it and actively discouraged it with extreme malice. My pleas to spend time with them were stonewalled and ignored, and it cut me to the bone. At some point in my early adulthood, I realized that this was never going to happen on a healthy level. And, I want to say that this was DECADES before I ever learned about sociopathy. But, on some gut level, I accepted the fact that the disordered SIL held all of the cards with regard to her children’s interests and interactions, and that I didn’t have any influence, whatsoever. I didn’t like this situation, but I recognized it for what it was, for whatever reason. As a complete aside, it’s odd how I wasn’t able to recognize OTHER spath entanglements, but that’s not a part of this discussion.

So, it may be that your continued efforts to see your grandchildren are going to be used against you, Betsybugs. Spaths have a keen and adept manner to make their targets feel and act in ways that they normally wouldn’t, and use the targets’ actions as “evidence” that the targets are to be shunned or avoided or institutionalized.

I’m so sorry that you’re experiencing all of this drama/trauma, Betsybugs, I really am.

Brightest comforting blessings to you

Truthspeak

ElizabethBennett, I’m obese and have been so since the first abusive exspath. I’ve lost over 75 pounds in the last year, and I’m still losing. Of course, it’s for a variety of reasons with one being that I simply cannot afford to buy food. But, the main reason is that the split with the second exspath resulted in a whole lot of personal emotional work for me that began with my “inner child.”

Once I began to explore my “inner child’s” damages and experiences, I began to slowly, EVER-so-slowly, recover from a lifetime of shame-core beliefs. As I began to process the truths about my shame-core, I actually began to “feel” that I didn’t “deserve” any of the things that had been done to me – I was simply vulnerable and easily exploited. The more that I learned about myself and what made me so vulnerable, the more I am filling myself up with courage, fortitude, and resolve instead of food.

Food provided a false comfort for me because it physically filled me up, and subconsciously provided a barried (adipose tissue) against unwanted attention. At one time, prior to the first exspath, I was pretty, physically strong and active, and had a healthy sex-drive. Once I had experienced years of every abuse imaginable, I did not “feel” that I was attractive, worthy of love, or anything else positive with regard to ME.

It’s not an easy path, EB, because I have always had an eating disorder, and I always will. I still have “food issues” that cause me to want to hoarde food, but not consume it because I’m in such dire financial straights – who knows when I’ll be able to buy food, again? This is an issue that I’ll have to learn how to manage. But, I know what the core of these issues is, and I only wish that I weren’t trying to manage an auto-immune disorder so that I could get more active. That would melt more weight off of my body, without a doubt.

But, understanding why adipose tissue became an “insulation” for me and how food became my only source of comfort has been some help in recovering from the spath experiences. I don’t like it. I wish that I had a better metabolism and that I didn’t have such flawed core beliefs. The saying goes something like this: If wishes were fishes, nobody would starve. Well, I’m not starving, yet, and wishes come true in fairy tales. Since I’m not living in a fairy tale, I need to alter my system of beliefs and manage my personal issues to continue recovery.

Brightest, brightest blessings to you

darwinsmom

Thanks for the info Ana… I’m trying to make some sense out of what I find with google… And what I find seems a big mess, of one nast big brawl. Almost all the links I find accusing Sandra Brown are pure vitriol, and seem to come from the same source or small group of people. And while there are claims and quotes, I find little oficial links to official documents that back up the quotes and claims.

Not saying the accusations may be wrong, but I would like to see some more independent peer reviews or official documentation on this as it is claimed there is.

Louise

darwinsmom:

If you remember anything about my story, what happened to me is exactly what happened to you…I didn’t feed the spath anything. He even said to me, “I don’t know anything about you.” Wow, if that wasn’t a tipoff he is an spath! At the time of course, I had no idea he was an spath until I put all the pieces together. But he did the same thing…just disappeared; slithered away. Months later when we talked, he contradicted himself (in other words he lied) because first he told me he disappeard because he went back to his wife (which he did do), but then the next week, he told me he started pursuing (again) the OW in my office because she was “pursuing” HIM! He actually said, “Why do you think I would want her over you?” When I stated some obvious reasons, he said, “She was pursuing me.” In other words, she was giving him the drama and excitement he needed and wanted! BUT…here’s a kicker and maybe you have some insight into this…after knowing this, I thought well if I want to get a reaction out of him, I will pursue him…I know that’s what he wants. Do you know when I would do that, he wouldn’t bite?? What is up with that? I was never able to get the same response from him by pursuing him that she got. Of course, then I thought there was something wrong with me. I have always wondered why he wouldn’t bite when I was giving him what he wanted? Mind you, this was all over two years ago. Maybe because I was no longer an interesting target at that point. But OW was also old news. They had already been in a relationship for over a year at this point. Any thoughts?

Ox Drover

Betsybugs,

I agree with what Truthy told you. Your daughter has ALL the cards and by asking, BEGGING her, she knows she is keeping you on tenderhooks by NOT answering truthfully, and YOU know and SHE knows the answer is NO but she isn’t going to say that YET….

As you get the chance, tell the kids, “I love you and will always love you” just those few words said as often as you see them

Your daughter is being MEAN TO YOU and she knows it and YOU know it, in the MOST PAINFUL WAY SHE CAN, by using your grandchildren.

Your daughter may be under the “control” of the psychopathic father, or she may be just like him….I have no way of telling, but she is DELIBERATELY hurting you by using her kids as the weapon….totally uncaring that it is hurting the kids as well.

So back to the “expectations” article I wrote, don’t EXPECT her to change, my guess is that nothing will change with her. I’ve been there with both my biological kids, even my older one who is not a P, but he isn’t the kind of man I want as a friend. I still love him but don’t want a relationshit with him.

Truthspeak

Louise, spaths throw out bits and pieces that they believe their targets will pick up and chew. One of the nastiest truths that I accepted about the exspath was that nothing that came out of his mouth could be trusted as believable. Even sudden and unbidden disclosures were not believable because he was only regurtitating what he thought I wanted to hear. Shortly after I discovered what he was, he made some off-topic disclousure about himself that was obviously intended to elicit sympathy from me. I looked at his dead eyes and said, “I don’t believe anything that comes out of your mouth.”

The pursuit is the foreplay, Louise. That’s all. And, when the spath is in control of the rules of the pursuit, they either will “react” or not to whatever morsel that they tossed in our direction if we begin to swallow it.

It’s not that you weren’t interesting, anymore. It’s just that the spath craves that foreplay of pursuit.

Brightest blessings

Truthspeak

OxD, the “expectation” that Betsybugs’s daughter will do what is “right” is false and self-damaging. Those children are a candy-coated carrot, and they’re dangling in front of Betsy’s face, ALWAYS just out of reach. The daughter is playing a very, very cruel game with Betsy and the innocent children. Those children will continute being dangled as possible “rewards” as long as Betsy continues reaching a tentative hand out to touch them.

Dangle, dangle, dangle….it is a very, VERY cruel game, and the more desperately we reach for whatever carrot is being swung in front of us, the more powerful the “bad person” feels. That’s all it is.

And, the daughter may be under the influence or spath, herself. Regardless of what her motivations for playing this cruel-assed game are, they are thoroughly cruel and devastating. Vicious and malicious games have NO winners.

Brightest blessings

darwinsmom

Louise,

At the time he chose her, it was because she was probably easier to manipulate exactly because she gave info, more than you did.

At the time he told you this though, he had become aware that you had developed attraction, and feelings for him. And so he told you exactly with the reason to have you pursue him and then blow you off by ignoring you. It was an opportunity to get extra win points over you.

I have experienced something similar with those guys, including the jerk. When I did at least inform them of feelings, after they had already slithered away, they gave me zero response. However, the jerk tends to hover around me at the tour leader training weekends if we’re both there… nowadays that I completely ignore him (he’s just slimey). And, the spath who used to be my friend-with-benefits for a while started to chat once in a while over facebook with me… full of innuendo, flattery and slime. I blocked him after I found out some disturbing behaviour towards his ex-gf (the whole typical spath shabang). Curiously enough two facebook account have tried to ‘befriend’ me… they had been either made that same day or the day before that they requested fb friendship with me and i didn’t know them, though both claimed to be of my city. I blocked the first attempt, then got friend requested by the second two days later. It was a very weird profile of someone calling themselves ‘yourFriend’ with a cautioning statement for parents that if they discovered their child talking with him, that he was just being a shoulder to cry on. Really weird in a totally, hard waving red flag shouting “I’m a pedo!!!” I blocked that profile from fb too. I do suspect it may be that spath. His ex told me that he created several fake fb profiles to then befriend every friend of hers in the hope to then request her friendship and cyberstalk her and get info on her.

IMO they’re trying to play games, trying to see whether they can get me to think they’re interested in me. They’re not even putting much effort behind it to make it seem believable. They just can’t keep from trying somewhat. The half heartedness in which they do it reveals also that if I were to actually have and show interest in them, they’d ignore me.

I think that once they choose to slither away out of their own accord, they only test the water to see whether you would take the bait, but tend to not take it further. They’re satisfied with the answer: if I wanted to, I could get her/him, but I don’t want to.

Louise

Truthspeak:

You mean him doing the pursuing? Or the woman? But he bit when she was pursuing. It’s confusing. It doesn’t matter anyway. Just something I still wonder about from time to time.

Louise

darwinsmom:

Bingo! You just nailed it. The way you described it is exactly the way it played out with me. The OW in my office even told me that she spewed everything out to him…everything about her. She didn’t profess her love to him, but she did apparently tell him everything about her life and her struggles and therefore gave him ammunition to manipulate her. I had figured this out early on because I remember telling her that he must have identified a weakness in her and turns out, that was true.

Yep, once he knew I had feelings for him, he told me about the pursuing. He is slick. He wanted to see if I would then do it and I did…I played right into his hands. But then he would just ignore me. What a horrible person. Only a disordered person would do that and hear and watch the hurt they were causing. SIGH.

darwinsmom

Louise,

There’s also something else that may be a factor in this…They slithered away because they didn’t get mirror info the first time around when they were making at least a serious effort. Spaths by nature are distrusting and project their own enjoyment of games and deception upon others as well. So, when we then later do display feelings, they also keep the option open that we might try to play a game with them… on the one hand they make us bite, as a stroke for their megalomaniac ego, but they don’t trust us enough to put further duping effort in it. The risk that we might be playing a game too is too big in their eyes.

So we take the bait, but they don’t take what they believe to be ‘our bait for them’

Louise

darwinsmom:

OMG…EXACTLY!! Again, spot on!! I can sit here and just see so clearly that is what happened to me. He was seriously pursuing me the first time around, but I didn’t tell him ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING. That is because the OW had already warned me and I wasn’t going to put myself out there. It was just him doing the talking all the time. And with his English accent, he loved to hear himself I think. He just talks and talks.

He is very distrusting…yep, because he knows he is not trustworthy…he thinks everyone is like him. You know, this is so funny because I thought about this very scenario and wondered if this is why he wasn’t responding to me…that he KNOWS how he plays his games…that if I am lovebombing him, I may just also be playing a game like he did and he was not going to fall for it. After all, he knows very well what the game playing looks like…haha. YES!…the risk is too great for them. YES!…they don’t take the bait because they know what the game looks like! Wow!

I do have to say though, I even told him how serious I was and that he may not believe that someone could love him so much…that maybe I was just playing a game with him. How funny that I told him that because I thought exactly as you say…he probably didn’t believe me because he knows the characteristics of the game very well. But I was NOT playing a game. He didn’t answer when I said that. Made him think I am sure.

Thanks so much!! You have really opened my eyes about things.

Louise

darwinsmom:

This is exactly what I said to him (I documented all the texts I sent to him):

Maybe you think I am just playing with you…that I couldn’t possibly be serious and love you this much (or be this stupid), but loving someone is never stupid.

Soooo, I did tell him that I realized that maybe he thought I was just playing with him. I know, I know…the things I said to him were really stupid. I admit that. Totally pouring my heart out to him, but I will say one thing…at least I made myself clear. There will never be any question about my feelings for him. He can think what he wants.

Perhaps I really confused him? After all, I went from someone who was telling him NOTHING to someone who was professing my love and feelings all over the place! Maybe it did give him a reason to not trust me? Maybe it all seemed so contrived to him? But he’s the master manipulator! But I guess that’s why, right?? He KNOWS what manipulation looks like! But I was not manipulating him. I only wanted closure. Oh, well.

Stargazer

Hi Matt, I happened to check in today, which I do fairly infrequently these days, and caught your article. I happen to think it’s excellent. You may remember that I also turned my spath in to the army and got all my friends to give sworn statements. It was our sworn statements that ruined the spath’s scheme to defraud the army out of a phony medical discharge (they call it malingering). Then I gathered a coalition of internet friends who all watched for the spath’s reappearance on my internet forum where I met him. When he reappeared, my friends drove him off. I didn’t even have to say a word to him, thankfully. The whole drama took about a year. But once I accomplished what I set out to do – which was just to get him out of my life – I was able to let go and heal. All I wanted was to get him out of my life. I told him after we split up that if I ever so much as saw him on the internet forum again, I’d turn him into the army. I wasn’t planning on seeking justice purely for the sake of revenge. I just wanted him out of my life. He called my bluff, and backspathed him. He never saw it coming. The fact that he got punished by the army was just icing on the cake.

I had no idea Donna was so crafty in her backspath. Good on you, Donna. I think a lot of people stay stuck because they don’t know what to do with the anger constructively. It does take a lot of moxie to backspath a spath, and sometimes it is dangerous. A book that comes to mind that this story reminds me of is an old Carlos Casteneda book called The Ring of Fire. In this book, one of the shamans tells a story of how he was once enslaved by a very evil person. He called this person a “petty tyrant.” He told how he had to step up and rise to a certain level of power in defeating the petty tyrant. He had to become crafty and think like the petty tyrant to outsmart him. He goes further to say that if you don’t have a petty tyrant in your life, you should go out and find one, because they teach great lessons that are very empowering.

Regarding Donna’s spiritual path and healing approach, I am doing something very similar. I have gone through some hypnosis lately, which involves a lot of regression, and it really does help. Of all of the things I’ve done, I would say the regression is the most helpful. I also am a second degree Reiki practitioner. I use it on myself for emotional healing and it really does work. There is nothing I won’t try and no belief system I’m not open to, if it accelerates the healing process. I’ve had psychic healings, aura cleansings, trauma work, and good old fashioned talk therapy. It all has helped in its own way. The healing process for me is quite painful and sometimes feels like one insult after another to my ego. This is where Eckhart Tolle’s books have been so helpful to me to put this into perspective – that we all have a “pain body”. Some of us have a larger one than others do. But that is not all of who we are. It’s been really great amidst all the pain and struggle to take up a new challenging hobby (which also pushes all my buttons) and to see it through without sabotaging it. Also very empowering to know that I can accomplish something without my pain body getting in the way of it.

My kindest regards to everyone here.

ElizabethBennett

Truthspeak and Darwinsmom-I think ya’ll are probably right. Due to being highly sensitive I was exploited a lot by people who were family. It sad when you can’t count on your own family not to treat you badly. I am working on things for myself. I read and write in my journal and I recently discovered St. John’s Wort and it has been a miracle for me because it controls my emotions so well. In addition to being over sensitive I am in early menopause at age 40 and the hot flashes and mood swings are crazy.

We don’t have any mental health resources where I am and it has become a critical situation. The system can’t even take care of the most extreme cases. All the facilities are being closed by our right wing governor in favor of balancing the budget and the few resources are overwhelmed. We have a lot of seriously mentally ill people that are dangerous walking around on the streets.

I just try to take things day by day and not worry one bit about tomorrow. Gradually as I come to know my lady friend better I am trusting her and she is trusting me. She is very sensitive as well but chose to deal with it in a different way than I have. I am learning about it and trying to work with it and accept it. For years she has been forcing it away. I tried to do that but bottling things up didn’t work for me. Once the emotions came out they were unable to control and flooded me. She made herself really hard and started to get to the point where I was afraid she was going to have a breakdown from the stress of it. We’ve started talking about things and she understands how I feel because she feels the same things. Since she started to trust me and talk to me it has really changed her personality a lot. I’m the only one she talks to like that. I just try to show her I love her and I don’t have to tell her. We’re just really there for each other and I don’t feel like I need to rush things.

Truthspeak, I feel like I need to force myself a little bit. I have a gym membership through work that is very cheap by payroll deduction and I hadn’t been going due to foot injuries. Now that those are resolved I have no excuse not to be there. I’m not in a situation where I can’t afford food but my grocery bill can’t support the things I need to be eating like natural unprocessed food. It’s amazing how expensive things are. I’m going to be starting a different job in my hospital soon where I’ll be going back to working dayshift, so I hope with better sleep that I’ll have more energy to exercise. I have a great outdoor area to be in too to take my dog with me. I think it will do him some good if we can get out and exercise together. He is a working dog and very active and I’m not getting him enough exercise.

BTW, animals are extremely therapeutic. I don’t know where I would be without my dog, my cat, and my St. John’s Wort.

darwinsmom

Louise,

The fact that you even mentioned to him “maybe you think I’m playing games…” probably just made him feel sure in his conviction that you were playing one.

Why do spaths attempt to make other accomplices and join in amoral actions? Because they wish to prove that in the end everyone is like them – a spath. Ultimately they believe that deep down we are really like them. Just like empaths ultimately believe that everyone must be capable of having a heart.

If a spath were to tell you, “You probably just think I’m playing a game here, but I really am not,” big alarm bells would go DING-DING-DING in your head. Since spaths believe everybody else to be spathic deep down in the end, he would have regarded that as something he would say, a 180° lie and a tell. Plus the fact that you gave no info, were distrusting, and in that sense uncooperative. Their mask is the most important thing they have. If they can’t mirror another person, they can’t make an appropriate tailored mask, and the risk increases that the other can see their true mr Hyde and expose them.

Louise

darwinsmom:

Good point! Hmmmm, well here I thought I was making myself more believable, when in reality, I made him trust me even less by saying that! I obviously did not realize what I was saying. But it’s because I am NOT like him. When I said it, it’s the TRUTH. Coming from him it would be a lie so he thought I was lying, too. UGGHH.

Louise and Darwinsmom,

You are both right, I think that it just made him more paranoid when you texted your love message.

I think that their is nothing you can say to make him believe you, the only thing you could do is ACT. If you were to approach him with tears, sack cloth and ashes, ripping your hair out, showing EMOTION, then you could convince him.

They need symbols. To them, symbols make things real. They are obsessed with signs and symbols. That’s why they are so materialistic. They need the symbols of wealth and status. My spath needed people to buy things for him. That made him feel that they loved him.

Darwinsmom,
how do you make the “degree” circle? on the 180 degrees?

Louise

skylar:

Yep, I most likely just made him more paranoid. We already know how paranoid he is. I did all this without even realizing what he was doing. I feel kind of bad now. I hate this.

I wish I could ACT, but I can’t. I do agree that I could convince him. With what I know about him, I could convince him, but he is not available. And he would only hurt me again. Sigh.

Delores

Someone has a vendetta against Sandra Brown. I went to her retreat and it was very helpful to me. I saw no flags of any color including red. I have never heard her claim to be a Phd. or a Reverend. All information I have read of hers is very helpful.

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/

darwinsmom

Euhm, Louise, from what you told us, I would say “thank your lucky starts you had him a) slither away b) unwittingly made him think you were plaing a game with him.

I also disagree with the idea that you could convince him. You could not. There is nothing to convince: no loving feelings. It’s not just that he’s practically unavailable… even if he was in every way available (morally, unattached, free) he would still be unavailable: he cannot love you the way you deserve to be loved.

Please read Sky’s imagery again: she’s painting the picture of a woman who practically throws herself at the feet of a man, in total desperation. It’s the image of a woman with no self esteem. If you were to do that, he would just enjoy the free victory and walk all over you without ever giving you a thing.

Skylar, euhm, the degree symbol is on my keyboard 😀 We have azerty keyboards in Belgium, and it’s right next to the typekey with 0. I hate it when I have to type on a querty… all my a’s turn into q’s, m’s become some symbol, etc…

darwinsmom

On Sarah Brown, I noted that the blogs that seemed to be created by the same person over and over (same wording same arguments, same vitriol) at some point posted quotes of her words… It seems as if these quotes came from personal mail with her, etc… I actually found the forum where she had posted what was quoted. In the context of the forum, her posts read as being very reasonable, nor were they a personal attack.

There was one blog that claimed to distance themselves from her. The reason being that Sarah Brown had dissociated herself it seems from this organisation that has as a goal: exposing and promotion of exposing psychopaths by name legally.

Delores

Truthspeak and Ox Drover,

I think you are right and I just had to push it to prove it to myself that she is actually capable of pretending that everthing in getting better when she has the same attitude she has had for years. She confirmed it today so now I know. Tis better for me to know than get false hope. from her phoney kindness.

This knowledge will help me do what I have to do with my sister and cope with my daughter on an as little contact as possible basis. I will enjoy the grandchildren as much as I can under the circumstances and expect nothing from her and expect to have them taken away again just as I suspected would happen.

Suspicions are painful and involve hope. Knowing the worst is always better for me. It provoked her and she provoked me but now I get it. Thank you both for your support. I do believe she will be sorry someday but I am not waiting around for it.

She has done a dastardly thing when all I wanted was to help her and be on her side while she raised her children. Now it will be opposite sides and that is not good for any of us. My granddaughter who is 9 is already saying she will come over to my house as soon as she can drive. My poor daughter has written her own demise. I can wait, they can wait. She will be sorry…and I am sorry and the poor children are sorry. But she has clearly made her decision and even told me nothing I say now will change it.

Darwinsmom:
That’s so unfair! 🙁
But I found the answer:
Alt-key plus 248 makes the °! 🙂
Now I just have to remember it.

Louise, yes, I didn’t mean that you could convince him to love you, I only meant that you could convince him that you loved him and he could sadistically torture you again. Best to let the slithering slime stay away, I think.

Regarding Sandra Brown: I did know some of the people who dismiss her as a fake. I noted that those people are extremely envious people in general so I take that with a grain of salt. (and I went NC)

Not having read her book and not knowing her personally, I really have nothing to judge her on, she may or may not have done all that they accuse her of.

It’s sad though that the group of people who are trying to educate others about spathy, has already been infiltrated with backstabbing, name calling, envy and lies.

All the more reason why we have to learn how to spot the spaths and their red flags.

darwinsmom

It is not impossible Sarah has done what they claim she has done. I found little or no independent evidence on it, including the claim about the MA.

Irregardless of that, her book was my self-empowerment tool, a total eye opener and helped me step ASAP on the focus on my own vulnerabilities, rather than just focus on the spath. It made total sense, doesn’t make claims about spaths that are unconventional, and was based on research, has been peer reviewed, and from what I read research Leedom cooperated with.

Delores

I know Sandra personally and I am convinced she is genuine. She said she used to work with psychopaths and decided they could not be helped so she began her work for victims. She is a victim too. and has PTSD. I am shocked that she has been targeted as a fraud. She even teaches classes to therapists, the legal system, judges, etc. on helping victims of psychopaths. Her work is groundbreaking and she is determined to educate society about this evil and help prosecute them while also helping potential targets and recovering victims. These accusations all seem personally motivated, perhaps she told a spouse he met the criteria. She will do that based on a questionere and not claim it is a diagnosis. She has worked with Leedom and other reputible profesionals and as far as I am aware, she still does.

Delores

Alt 248 did nothing for me 🙁

Louise

darwinsmom:

I agree. I know. That is why I do not contact him and will not. I don’t want to ever make a fool of myself like that again…throwing myself at his feet.

Louise

skylar:

I knew what you meant. I know I could convince him that I love HIM. You all were saying that the texts I sent just made it seem to him like I was playing a game (since that is what he would do). So yeah, you said the only way I could convince him that I was telling the truth was to ACT. Then I said I agreed…I know I could convince him of the truth if I was to act, but of course, I said I would not do that. So yes, we were on the same page. I could never humiliate myself like that again.

Louise

darwinsmom:

Thank you so much for opening my eyes up to what happened.

Betsy,
did you hold down the ALT-key WHILE entering the sequence: 248 ?

darwinsmom

Louise,

Hugs! Glad to have been able to answer your questions about this. I do think you already knew the answers, or you wouldn’t have recognized them… It sometimes just helps to have someone else say them out loud for you 🙂

Louise

darwinsmom:

Yes, subconsciously, I think I knew what had happened. It really does help to read it; to see it explained in print. 🙂

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