By | September 25, 2008 250 Comments

Accepting the sociopath/narcissist’s blame to preserve the relationship

Here’s a theme I think we can relate to: Your partner (a male in this example, strictly for convenience’s sake)—a narcissist, or perhaps sociopath—blames you for his misery, bad moods, bad decisions, frustrations, dissatisfactions, disappointments and underfulfillment.

From his perspective, if he cheats on you—or deceives and betrays you—you will have deserved it, because you will have been responsible for the discontent that necessitated his violating behaviors.

Remember he feels entitled to have what he wants; he deserves what he wants, when he wants it; and if he’s frustrated, it must be someone’s fault.

Someone must be blamed, and you, his partner, will be his odds-on choice to own his blame.

It’s amazing how often we accept, against our better instincts, the narcissistic/sociopathic partner’s insistence that we are responsible for his infinite emptiness.

We do so for many reasons, but the one I’d like to stress is this: If we don’t accept this responsibility, his blame, we seriously risk losing the relationship.

Ongoing relationships with abusive, contemptuous partners require just this kind of Faustian contract: To preserve the relationship, however desecrated it is, I will accept your blame. For the sake of not yet losing this relationship, I will continue to entertain, if not own, your constant assertion that there is something in me—something deficient and insufficient—that explains your mistreatment and disrespect of me.

To say it somewhat differently, so long as we’re not yet ready to jettison a destructive relationship, a narrative must be constructed to explain our decision to stay. The narrative, as I suggest, often goes something like this: I am to blame—I —for my partner’s debasing attitudes and behaviors. I must be to blame, otherwise I’d leave.

The narrative is rational, but false. It’s a false narrative (in the back of our minds, we may sense its falseness), but it’s the only narrative under the circumstances that can explain, and seemingly justify, our continued tolerance of our partner’s nonsense.

A couple I spent some time with recently (clinically) illustrated this point well. The husband, Harold, was one of the most transparent narcissistic personalities I’ve ever seen. He’d recently ended an affair with a colleague (justifying the affair as a function of his right to pursue the fulfillment his spouse, Julia, wasn’t supplying).

Interestingly, about eight weeks into their courtship, Harold began offering up undisguised, alarming displays of his narcissism in general and narcissistic rage specifically. Julia was highly disturbed by each of these displays. All left her thinking, “This isn’t right. I should end this thing now, before I get deeper in. He shouldn’t be treating me like this. I shouldn’t be tolerating this.” But while recognizing these alarming warnings, she was already too deeply invested in her vision of the relationship—and Harold—to end it.

A dozen years later, not much has changed. Julia has a beautiful child and, in Harold, a spouse who’s conformed entirely to his early, advanced billing—he is demanding, often hostile and passive-aggressive, easily and constantly disappointed, blaming (of her) for the emptiness that leaves him constantly wanting, and prone to secretiveness.

Julia caters to his moods and demands in order to avoid eliciting the ugliest manifestations of his hostility (whose emergence threatens everpresently to scare and traumatize her).

But it’s no secret how Julia, with her high intelligence and striking emotional maturity, continues to justify her decision to endure what’s been Harold’s 12-year assault on her emotional safety and dignity.

She has owned the blame for his discontent, disappointments, and acting-out.

Just as soon as she’s ready to disown this falsely ascribed (and tacitly accepted) responsibility, she’ll find herself without a reason to accept the conditions of—and indignities associated with—Harold’s personality disorder.

At that point, the leverage will be hers—Harold will either have to shape up (unlikely), or she’ll be genuinely prepared to ship him out.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

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I’ve had an epiphany recently. I suddenly remembered an awful memory from the first S relationship I had…My S would control me in every way…I lived by myself. with no family around, and I was generous, forgiving and loving. Sound familiar? If he didn’t like who I was talking to, whether it be family or friends, he would first break my cell phone, and then take the battery from my cordless phone and toss it deep into the Florida bushes behind my apartment. He was a steriod user, so there was no way I could stop anything he did.
So this memory, as it see it from looking back now, I was frantically searching in the deep woods, looking for the battery.What was going through my mind?!?! Instead of worrying about the poisonous creatures lurking, bushes cutting me to pieces, how weak my self-esteem had become, the complete non-existence of my self-worth, and not running to the police from this controling, abusive freak, I was simply picking up the pieces of his anger.
So, as I am thankfully ending another S relationship, trying with all my might to stay NC, I realize this was another situation where he has controlled my thoughts. He was amazingly charming in the beginning, and I thought I fell into a fairy tale, and then the cheating, lies, and manipulation began. By then, it was too late, and I would desperately do anything to not lose what I THOUGHT we had. Even take the blame for anything like it was my fault. Lately, he has been sending me text messages about how he misses me, and how sorry he has is for ‘all the pain he caused.’ Of course he doesn’t mean it, but he is simply using whatever means to make me feel guilty, or weak, or sympathetic. He plays on the specific words he uses, such as giving himself nicknames that make him sound innocent. Example; if his name is Dan, he will say “See! I do miss you, proof that Danny cares.” Awww, what a sweet little boy I should THINK, right?
To be blunt, I have been Mind-F***ed by these two S’s, for what’s going on years now. Controlling my thoughts, I can’t think for myself. Whatever they say, I think. If i question their authority or opinion, they will pull tighter on their forms of manipulation. They know who would be their perfect ‘catch’ immediately, who is not normally aggressive, but innocently naive and happy in life about people. They make us believe they are so amazing and happy, and when things start to go wrong (they know we are stuck on them) thats when they begin to tear us down, and ultimately blame us for everything, and we become their puppets. Controlling everything we think through their manipulation.
Looking back now, as NC continues, I see so much more clearly. I feel like I am starting to live again as myself, and think for myself again because I, nor my thoughts, are no longer being posioned by him. Like a constant IV of poison controlling my mind.
They are toxic poison. Simple as that.


Letgoletgod: You proved two sayings “love is blind” and “opposites attract”. Thank God it was just the phone he broke.

You sound like you are coming along fine in your healing and regaining your self esteem. I always say “I’ll treat myself good if no one else around me cares to”.

Yes, No Contact is a must in order to heal yourself. You need that time to clear your mind and to stay clear of all their clever manipulations. Boy, they have a bag full of them, don’t they? I wonder if there was a list of manipulation techniques written in Playboy or something? Providing them with all this amo against us. Personally, I think it’s the way boys are raised versus girls… at least at one time how boys versus girls were raised … I know, I know, it’s different now. But, back in the days … boys were raised that what they did was their life … and girls were raised that what her husband did was her life. Now girls are raised to be as independent thinking as the boys. I wonder how well their relationships
will endure?

Good luck with your NC. You don’t need to be pulled back to square one after a contact of any kind is established.



Of course I catch myself thinking of him, constantly actually, but those thoughts now are composed of how much of a sociopath he is, and I am not to blame. The first days of not talking to him are always the worst. I was distracted, had short-term memory loss, despression and despair, regret, blame, sadness, you name it. I was a mess. And now, with the help of time and Lovefraud, I am beginning to see clearly and think my own thoughts again.I don’t have someone whispering dreadful things in y ear to brainwash me. Literally, I can not possibly describe it better. He was poison to my thoughts.


Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and….who in THEIR RIGHT MIND could think clearly with that?!? NO ONE, because you are not in your right mind! You are on their rollarcoaster spinning around and around and around. Well, I have finally jumped off, and although I am a little dizzy initally, I know that will I will get my rhythm back soon…


letgo: poison, yes. fiendish. a leech.
they suck the very life out of you. i swear, the last few months with him i felt like i was either going to have a stroke or a heart attack … literally. i just felt my very life ebbing from me, my soul was sick, my spirit in deep hiding.
he twisted my mind so i had no idea what he was, who i was, what was real, or which way to turn.
it is the sickest thing i have ever dealt with in my life (my father was a s/p/n too); he destroyed every last bit of my self-esteem (even told me i smelled bad), took my last cent, and left me with nothing but a mess in the bathroom (after taking a shower before leaving for his new prego gf’s house).
it’s been six weeks with NC (except for a very brief conversation in which he managed to trash me one last time: “i never wanted you as a lover” — this after 20 years of being lovers).
he’s the most twisted human in the world, he has left behind a wake of destruction and misery, and he walks in this world like his shit don’t stink!


LG, Wow, how is it possible that these S’s are even human? I know what you are saying about the sickness of my soul. I felt completely in despair and hopeless.
What a nasty person to say those things to you. Anything at all to hurt, abuse, shove to the ground.
What the heck happened that they became so hurtful, or what is wrong with their brain chemistry? Could cognitive therapy help if given to them for years? What are we going to do in this world if we can’t find some cure? We shouldn’t have to simply put up with them and say “Oh well, that’s just the way it is.” Too bad we can test for it while they are in the mother’s womb. And since not, I would assume it is the environment they are brought up in-role models, experiences, etc., and should be able to be fixed, correct?
I feel like we are living with aliens among us that took human skin to cover up their slimy-ness.


letgo: i don’t know if you have read my other posts, but i am absolutely convinced that they are not human. being among three s/p/n’s in my life, i’m certain they are from another dimension…seriously. one day my ex was lying on the bed and looked up at me and i swear to god he looked more like some mythological creature instead of a person. i told him this and he just gave me this sly smile. really sent chills up my spine.
i call them the ”pod people.” the amazing similarities of everyone’s stories is more than coincidence. they look the same, act the same, lie the same, and say the same exact things.
i dunno… it’s more than a disorder. it’s a damn conspiracy!

I am convinced they are evil….as in pact with Devil.
And no you don’t need to sit down and sign away your soul, just repeated sin. Sinfulness becomes a lifestyle…

Ox Drover

I have “taken the blame” my entire life, with every P in my family and the others that I have worked with, been in business with, dated, etc. If SOMETHING WAS WRONG, it was MY FAULT, I had to find some way to fix it, and funny thing, I guess I wasn’t “fixable” cause I never satisfied any of them with my attempts to “fix myself to suit them.”

So, I guess I’m just gonna have to let them go find the PERFECT PERSON THAT I CAN’T BE, they DESERVE the perfect person for themselves, and since I am obviously not “good enough” for them, I am letting them go on their merry ways.



lol ox… i could here you all the way over here!
i almost called my ex tonite; not to talk, just to hear his voice answer the phone so i could gauge his happiness level. but i fought off the feeling. and then i started reading a book that just arrived today: Without Conscience by Hare.
OMG! i got through about eight pages and had to put it down. my jaw is on the floor and my tongue is dangling. i honestly don’t know if i can read this book. it is just sickening how smarmy and slimy these pods are.
well, if nothing else, i don’t feel like calling the pervert now. just the thought is more contact than i ever want to have again!


lostingrief: Believe me, he (as all of them) are miserable. Just because they laugh and smile, does not mean that they are happy. Did you ever catch your EX really laughing … I mean, really laughing from the belly laugh. Not that fake phony laugh … that sounds so tinny. A real, hardy belly laugh.

Bet you the answer is NO. Why? Because they are M-I-S-E-R-A-B-L-E. If they weren’t miserable, would they be doing what they do?




lostingrief: Because they are miserable all the time in their lives (not having God in their lives, well actually, God is there, they just don’t accept him, but that’s neither here nor there at this writing), they want everyone else to be miserable. Get it?


Remember what Bill Cosby quoted (and will someone find out who is the author of this quote) “HURT PEOPLE, HURT PEOPLE”.


actually, he did belly laugh. not often mind you, but he and i could definitely roll around in laughter from time to time, mostly when we had a few drinks. but i hear ya’. i know he’s miserable and fake as a furry frog (i just made that up).
and even if he is happy, i still never want to be anywhere near that energy again. it just near killed me.
the god thing. he’s afraid of religious/spiritual experiences. and so he should be!!!


I like the furry frog. That’s what we can call them … furry frogs in slime green jumpsuits …

Not contrived laughing cause he’s in a situation that they pretend to laugh … just walking and you see something amusing and it makes you hold your gut in … you are laughing so hard. I remember seeing the movie “Plane, Trains and Automobiles” … there was this scene that they led up to … and they actually did it. The audience new it was going to happen, but when they really did put it in the movie … I laughed so hard, I was holding my stomach I was laughing so hard … and it kept you laughing for about 2 minutes … a long long time. That kind of laugh that is so ridiculous, you can’t help but laugh.

I remember at work … when the phonies laughed, it was so canned and tinny (like nails on a chalk board tinny)… I would just shake my head over how clueless they were … it was so sad.


I am new to the forum, I have realised after 21 years of ‘marriage’ that my husband fits the profile of a sociopath. How could I have been so blind hoping things would change every time he caused the latest round of havoc. The final straw has come when I have been diagnosed with a chronic life threatening illness which means I will have to reduce my workload (I earn the main salary)The day after I came out of hospital feeling very weak, shocked and vulnerable he refused to stay home and look after me because he was going to a rock concert for the whole day ( I couldnt even walk) He became very verbally aggressive and said I shouldnt have left hospital if I was ill and he wasnt my nurse! He had no empathy for me at all and said I was exaggerating my illness to spoil his plans, he went to the concert. A few days later I tried to discuss how he had upset me and he couldnt see that he had done anything wrong, he made me feel like I was making a big deal out of nothing. Its our 14 year old daughter who has made me see what he is.
If he is ever confronted about his behaviour he blames stress at work or me or his childhood. If he feels his situation is threatened he tries to get pity and plays the victim ( I have fallen for this constantly even though he is the one who is behaving unreasonably) Some of the things he has done to me over the years are physical violence if challenged, verbal abuse frequently, shouting me down if I broach a subject he doesnt want to discuss, He has taken equity out of the house without informing me, as it is a joint mortgage this is a fraud, he has applied for credit cards in my name, set up his direct debits from my bank account without my knowledge, taken out a life insurance policy on me and emptied my bank account when I was in hospital the last time. He was in trouble with the law at age 14 and was given 2 years probation. He lies about everything even day to day things. He said its my fault he lies as he is scared of my reaction. He spends money he doesnt have so we always have financial problems as he takes on debts but doesnt bother repaying them and then I have to bail him out. This has happened through our married life, he also stole some of my late fathers life savings that we were looking after for him. He has had extra marital affairs during our marriage and I got the courage to throw him out when our daughter was 2. We were split up for 6 months and he had a few one night stands, the girl he left me for dumped him immediately, he told me that it was really me that he wanted and wanted to give it another go, he blamed me for the breakup saying he was under too much stress to be the main earner (Iwas at home during the day with a 2 year old and working as a waitress in the evening)He was like a little lost boy and said it was the biggest mistake he had ever made. When he made the decision to come back I had just told him I had won a place to study law, I now wonder if he smelled the money. The latest infidelity was found by my daughter on the computer, he has been accessing casual sex dating sites on the internet, he has his profile on at least 4 sites describing himself as well toned hunk seeking discreet sex. When confronted he said he had not contacted anyone and did it once when he was drunk last year( he didnt realise I had found all the recent sites and all his communications, he has also downloaded pictures onto the computer. Our daughter occasionally uses this computer and he hadnt even tried to hide the evidence. He blamed me for this and said it was my fault. Last year he also put an advertisement in a newspaper to find an old girlfriend from 25yrs ago, I had to explain to him that she was probably married with children now and he could cause problems for her, he hadnt even thought about this, he promised me he had cancelled the ad and agreed it had been a moment of madness. Yesterday I found out he had also put an ad on the internet to find her!
As our daughter has got older he has started to be very emotionally blackmailing towards her, if she argues with him or catches him out in a lie, which is frequent he threatens that he wont drop her at her drama class anymore, she lives for her drama and this really upsets her. He is also starting to treat her like he treats me, as if he cant be bothered, showing no love or protective instincts towards her. He is also always trying to get her into trouble, she says he feels more like a sibling than a father. I am worried how this will all affect her.
He has also been drinking alone again, he does this on and off, using my money mainly that he has sneaked out of my account, he gets very drunk and is very aggressive if anyone says anything to him.
I told him this evening that I couldnt continue like this, it is too draining and I am quite sure it contributes to me getting sick, he said he cant go because he has no money and knowhere to stay (he has alienated his family and doesnt have any long term close friends) he said I would need to give him the deposit for an apartment if I want him to go.
He has threatended if he goes he will not help financially with our daughter and I will have to go to court to get any money, he said this in front of our daughter, he blames the current situation on me as he said I shouldnt have been sneaking around and it serves me right that I found out what I did.
You may ask why I have stayed with him, wriring it down like this I cant believe it myself but this man gets under my skin , he can make me feel like his soulmate and sends cards saying things like, my love for you grows more and more each year. He always sends me flowers ( if I check i am probably paying for them), and usually just afterwards drops into the conversation that we need the latest car or tv and I am buying,.so i am a sucker. He is manipulative when he wants something that we have discussed and cannot afford, he will buy it anyway and tell me about it when we have company so that I cannot says anything. We rarely have any friends round because he has alienated them. His behaviour can become very loud if he has been drinking and other people are there, he can be very embarrassing as he will try to have discussions about things he has no knowledge of and argue with people who do. He has never been successful in his career and has gone from company to company with no promotions. He has been sacked in the past for not doing his job and spending too much time on the internet. He always starts out well but never keeps it up, he is forever making a ‘fresh start’. We have had to remortgage numerous times to clear his debts and I am now left with huge credit card bills and a high mortgage to pay. His only thought is for himself, he is happy to keep the house and have me move out with his daughter from the family home. He is still refusing to leave. The two times he has treated me the worst are at times when I am less use to him, the first fling I am aware of was when I was not earning much and was taking care of a toddler, this time I may have to work less so will not be earning as much. I have tried to discuss his behaviour with him but he never accepts responsibility and makes me feel stupid at the same time playing the victim.After the first split we attended marriage guidance and the counsellor told me that he would send me mad if I took him back, she has been proved right because I am left with low self esteem, no confidence and depression and I still feel sorry for him. What do other people think, am I been harsh or does he fit the profile of a sociopath, If he is how should I handle the break up.


lostingrief: Oh, my God … you just made me remember something from my early teens … my sister and my friends all snuck out of the house … around 3:00 or 4:00 in the a.m. I forgot why we had to do this … but we had to … it was some teenager thing going on. Anyway … we went where we had to go and we were coming up to our houses … to sneak back in without our parents knowing we left the house in the middle of the night … Yeah, well there’s about 6 or 7 teenage girls trying to be quiet. I don’t think so. Anyway, this little tiny frog jumped out of the lawn onto the sidewalk where we were standing and trying to be quiet. My friend “C” says “loooooooooook at the froooooooooooggggggggggg” so loud, it woke all our parents up. Well of course, all the lights go on in the neighborhood and we got busted, right in front of our houses by our parents … demanding we all get in the house and what the heck do you think you are doing. My sister and I are going into our parents house and “M, P, A, Cl,” ran to their house, while “J” and “C” went in to their house next door … and I said “thanks C for laughing over the frog so loud”. She said “nite Wini”.

Moral of the story, we had furry frogs in our lives even back when we didn’t think of guys … or did we at that time? I don’t remember.



moraira43: First things first, get your daughter and you away from him. If you can afford a down payment on the rent for him … do it.

2nd. Get another bank account that he has no access to your money. You can keep the main account for paying bills only … and the rest of your money, bank it in an account that he has no idea about it and has no access to it. Do not keep the bank info at your house, get a safe deposit box at the bank or keep the paperwork at your parents or family member that you trust.

3rd. Get the policy of that life insurance and make sure your daughter is beneficiary on it. Not your husband. Too dangerous for him to be on this piece of paper. If you can’t get it changed, then contact an attorney and contact the police department and inform them that he has a life insurance policy on you and you are uncomfortable with the knowledge of this. Even if the police just talk with him and ask him about it … at least he knows that the police know.

That’s all I have to say right now. Except, calm down and get a good nights sleep. And, please NO CONTACT with him after he leaves.


I would say that you said it all-I do not doubt he is a sociopath. My recommendation is to read everything you possibly can about these monsters. Its sad, it hurts like hell, it brings much anger, its a surprise. But it is real. Don’t doubt anything you said-thats the manipulation and control they have. It will be extrememly difficult, as you will read, almost everyone blogging here will still say how confused and hurt and angry they still are, even after years of NC. But NO CONTACT is the ultimate goal. And keep talking to us and reading this blog, it is our gift, thankfully we have this. Just get him out of your life, no matter what it takes.


Wini and Letgoletgod: thankyou for your comments, I think I will need as much support as I can get over the coming months, you have given me some strength to try and carry on. I never new anything about sociopaths until I started trying to find out if he had mental health problems. pls keep in touch
Thankyou again


moraira43: Like Letgoletgod said, you are at the beginning of this journey and it is a bumpy, bumpy road. And that’s putting it mildly.

Yes, stay in touch with on this site. Anyone that is blogging at the time you are on, just write them, they’ll all write back.

And remember this, if it’s brings you any comfort … we are all in this together. Every single one of us has a situation similar to yours … the names and the stories are different, but they are all the same.


Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

Welcome to LoveFRaud, your husband sounds like a classic sociopath/Psychopath. They cannot change and the only option you have is to protect yourself by getting away from them.

The advice you have been given about your finances (above) is very good. Do not give him any indication that you are intending to leave or to toss him out before it happens.

Once you are separated from him, have NO contact with him except through an attorney. Protect yourself financially.

Do not believe a single word he says. Read the archive articles here, read every one. KNOWLEDGE=POWER. You have allowed him to have power over you for far too long, and only YOU can take back YOUR power. He is a FAKE, an illusion. He is not real. He cannot love or care.

God bless you, and read and learn. come here often and don’t feel embarassed about why you stayed or how long you stayed, many of us have been in relationships just as toxic for as long or longer. You are in safe and understanding company here. (((hugs))))


Hi Moraira,
Welcome. These sociopaths can be so charming at times. They tell us all kinds of things and we want to believe them. They are masters at manipulation and seduction. We have all experienced this. It’s so good that you are seeing these things and listening to your daughter. A person like this is toxic in others’ lives.


No way are you going to be able to have no contact for a while, after a 21 year marriage.. but I’d work on it for sure.


How really true the in fact without the reconfirming and agreement with a “Faustian ” behavior will we in fact start to “lose” our relationship with them that expect and required it…

Point of interest:

After many years of trying to work on my personal relationship with my ex. Trying everything and all with little (short term) and no success then I realized that nothing would ever change. I did change my “bad” habit but she gave back nothing in exchange. I would try to show her more appreciation support love and personal commitment. Still she would do nothing in return and then only “raise” the bar! In short nothing would change…

Then when I understood this to it’s fullest and “stopped” trying to please her did she in fact just go and find someone that would give her what she really wanted. Which would be total appreciation support love and personal commitment. I was only replaced because I realized that giving and giving would always and only bring from it more of the same….

This (from her point of view) was my sin and leaving me was my punishment…


James: Did you read the site about Givers and Takers of the world?

If not, here it is:




Read all you can find on personality disorders. Educate your daughter and self on sociopathic traits and “red flags”. Visit Dr. Caver web site.

Hope you will research all that is offered by Lovefraud..

Remember we are here for you!!!

Find a exit plan asap…

Good Luck!




“Did you read the site about Givers and Takers of the world”

Yes I have and thanks. Great source of information!!

Ox Drover

James, you are so right, no matter how much you “change” to try to please them they



My P-son “punished” me for turning him in to the police after he got out of prison by NOT COMING HOME TO LIVE. Your wife “punished” you by leaving—but in reality, they did us the BIGGEST FAVORS they could have done us. God’s blessings for us!


That givers and takers thingie has one big flaw that I can see.. saying givers are confident.. I don’t think many of us are all that confident, at least in the beginning.

Oxy I gotta say with the justice system as it is I’m not sure I could ever turn my son into the police unless I was completely ready to give up on them. I mean.. he was a completely horrible son obviously to murder someone, but you can’t blame him for thinking you had given up on him.. I mean.. you had.

I would have tried instead to get him into one of these programs for at risk teens, they have limited success, but there have been some amazing turn-arounds just by getting these kids away from their “friends” and environments and giving them a double dose of love and reality.


I personally believe that when you love someone, truly love someone, you will always love them. I know that I even still love that crazy guy I dated when I lived in Florida, but that doesn’t mean I still want him in my life. And maybe that is why we all have such a hard time letting go-We all believe that we were wrong to love this person, or question if we EVER did in the first place. Maybe we have regret for loving and giving to someone who doesn’t feel the same and we want to deny it, or pretend it wasn’t real just to deal with the pain. It hurts!
What we are all not seeing on this site, is that we are dwelling, and not seeing how strong we actually are. We are so busy looking at the hurt that we can’t see that we are loving & forgiving humans. Maybe in the top ten percent in the world! Sure, we wear our heart on our sleeves, and that might be a bittersweet characteristic, but I would rather have that then selfish pride or indifference. I do make mistakes listening to my heart over my head many times, and these S’s or P’s KNOW that, and I am learning to find the moderation just for my own sanity and healthy living, but I think that we SHOULD always trust our hearts first.
Anyway, I don’t necessarily think that Ox gave up completely on her son, but she believes in the truth and justice. Maybe she believed that he deserved it, it would help him, but she would still love him when he got out, thus why she feels ‘punished’ for him not coming home. WE feel love, they don’t. He couldn’t understand anyway why she turned him in. That WAS a child of hers that she gave birth to and nurtured for years. And if that is the case, I don’t think she stopped loving someone just because there is something wrong with his personality. I do not have the gift of children yet, but that is part of the responsibility that is required-love them no matter what (in my eyes).
Am I close, or way off Oxy? If, in some fantasy world, he could be fixed to be ‘normal,’ would you forgive him and love him? I wouldn’t doubt it, so I think that it never does ‘go away’ and we don’tever ‘give up,’ really. I think we are just forced to by our minds that are filled with facts about these people that there simply is, no chance. But if we listened to our hearts, I think we would always believe in them…Um, how many of us stayed for YEARS?!?!

Feel free to correct me anyone…


And I just want to make sure that I make myself clear-Just because we love them, it is not wrong, and we shouldn’t deny it, but it still means that we should not continue a relationship with them, until and only if they change. IF…

Isn’t there a quote that says the love you give away is the only love you keep? And: it’s better to have loved and lost than never at all? Or how about: Love works in miracles every day: like weakening the strong, stretching the weak and making fools of the wise and wise men of fools, favouring the passions, destroying reason, and simply turning everything topsy-turvy.”

Doesn’t the above quote prove that we all did love? Maybe we could talk about, or even start another blog about the good things we did, how we forgave, what we did love, what we still have…Aren’t we all trying to move forward to a happy future, but how can we do that if we keep dwelling on the past? I’m going to challange everyone to take a day off of looking backwards, and see the beauty that we do have in the life in front of us.



You are so right, no corrections needed, its difficult to believe what your head is saying when your heart is saying something different and most ‘normal’ (whatever that is)people dont go into a relationship with their heads, but only with their hearts.



That has been my struggle in a nutshell these past 2 1/2 years since her departure…. the heart still loves despite the pain, and the head aches because of the truth…. I have always said that I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I loved her in a generous, kind way and I’m proud of that aspect, although there is pain that I gave so much to someone who was sick and evil. My ruminations are both of the good and the bad with her and my pain is that when it was good (when she wanted it to be) it was wondeful.. the happiest time of my entire life… but.. when it was bad (when she wanted it to be).. it was horrible and confusing… the push and pull.. the hot and cold.. the bizzare, contridictional behavour…. it was never worth the pain.. but I did the same things that the woman in the article above did… I took the blame the the fall.. in order to perserve the investment that I had in the relationship because I saw in my fantasy, the results would be worth it to get the things I wanted…. it was sick on her (her little mind game) part to string me along for so long thinking if I just did this, or that things would be fine….. It has been said here many times before, and I live by the truth of it today… It all happened for a reason.. and although it broke me.. hell.. it shattered me… I will never allow that kind of unhealthy mind set in my life again…. Yes.. I still love her.. my heart is loving and kind and FORGIVING… but I don’t want her, or anyone else for that matter who does not/will not/ not capable of/ treating me with the respect and dignity that I have always deserved…. May God have mercy on her soul.


Ok, so maybe here is another way to look at THEM; a theory of mine: Almost like when LOVE and HATE collide. If we typically use our hearts most of the time above all else, then we are the Love. THEY use their minds above all else, fully lacking the USE of their HEARTS, so THEY are the Hate.Isn’t it true that when you don’t use a body part it dies after awhile (like if you are in a coma you need someone to move you around constantly). So, if they never learned to use their hearts, or stopped, it just dies. I think GOD put us in THEIR lives because no one else would ever be able to compare. We are fully, polar opposites in every way. And they taught us things that we needed to learn in order to have a complete and loving life in our future, that no ordinary person could do. He taught me good and bad things that I didn’t even know about myself. And we will be better for it. And what did we teach them? Something, at least. We may never see it, but we can certainly hope that the presense of us in THEIR lives has changed them in (some) way, at the very, very least. Who knows, maybe one day an old lady is crossing the street and they remember you for some reason at that moment and decide to help her. An affect that only we could have on them. And the cycle continues. So, in theory, they NEEDED us.
I fully believe that everything has an opposite, right and wrong, up and down, yes and no, black and white, us and them. They were our opposites, so the prime example of when love and hate collides. But, we will continue on this journey of love in life, and where will they be? They need our prayers more than anyone else.


Letgoletgod: I’m with you and agree whole heartedly with what you’ve written.

Peace to everyone healing paths and lets look to the positives in life, how we are healing and how much we have grown due to the experience with our EXs coming into our spaces, and how we are learning and understanding that we can love bigger and better now, this minute, today and in our future.


i have found a song, that i relate my feelings towards the sociopath. jessica simpson on her new album has this song called “still dont stop me”

i think many of you might relate to the song if you just listen to it. it really helps me with my healing. i play this song every day a million times.
here are some lyrics to it.

But it still don’t stop me
Yeah, it still don’t change the truth
Cuz baby you got me
And I can’t let go of you

I know if I let you back in
It’s the same damn thing all over again
You’ll just hurt me, you’ll just hurt me
But it still don’t stop me

when your at the point of that you still have feelings for the sociopath but you know better to let it go and to never go back…


blondie I am not a jessica simpson fan but I will certainly check it out. I have so many song’s that I relate too. I try not to listen to the “you done me wrong” song’s like I used too. But I love music and if a song writer understand’s and write’s a song from the heart then they were prolly where we are at now. Dang will the hurt ever go away? We don’t want em back Blondie – we just want to get past this pain. One time I told (M) to listen to this song because it is our song. He lost interest half way through the song and got on the computer to play games – I went outside and asked myself what in the hell am I doing? Thet are empty of any emotion’s…..


Letgoletgod ….

Mine never “needed” me..I was merely a stepping stone to the next person she would victimize….The virtues that I displayed never regestered on any real emotional level with her…although she used words like exceptional and amazing and honorable to describe me… who does bad things to someone that they would say that to??? the answer is…. a crazy person… I think you have to realize that they are devoid of any real feelings of depth…..we have to examine their actions and not their words……bottom line…great acting exhibited by a heartless person with a vacant soul….it’s too bad for them though….. when their looks begin to fade, and their line of charm just doesn’t work like it used to…. and the bridges have all been burnt, and they find themselves alone sitting in a chair, looking out the window of a nursing home with no one coming by to visit….lingering….maybe then the reality of what they have done to the people in their past, and the reality of who and what they are will sink in… lasting relationships nurtured… no kindness or integrity.. no real love…only gain for themselves….. no one who cares about them because they were so horrible to people around them for their own gain…….Whether a person os disorderd or healthy the rules still apply…… you reap what you sow.. and what comes around, goes around…. life is a echo, what you throw out there comes back to you….if you are looking for redemption, or vindication…. that is really what will happen with these people. I actually have compassion for mine.. It doesn’t take much brains to figure out what will eventually befall her….you continue to hurt people and treat them with reckless reguard.. it comes back to you….it’s the one rule of life that they can’t malnipulate or change….. God has a way of evening the score.. either here or beyond.

Ox Drover

DEar LEtgoletGod,

Well, let me see if I can explain my feelings about my P-son.

That little boy what was so wonderful, so loving, so bright, so much fun, I love that little boy very very much. But he died when he was 11 or 12 years old. I kept his “body” on emotional “life support” until last year. I kept hoping that he would “wake up” and be that same wonderful person. But I have had to accept the fact that the MAN that inhabits the body of my little boy is NOT MY SON. MY son is DEAD. The MAN has his organs, but he is not my son.

My husband is dead. I loved him with my entire being, but he is dead. I can’t bring him back. I love him, but I have had to let my heart accept that he is dead and is not going to return to me. I can love another man now (if I knew of a good one that was single and interested). LOL

I have “forgiven” my P-son, gotten over the worst of the bitterness, the anger, the frustration, the grief, the hurt, and pretty well, I think, come to “acceptance.” Just as with my husband’s death, I can think about them, talk about them, remember the good times, and not feel overwhelming grief or sadness.

I have no desire to know anything about what is happening in my son’s life now. I don’t know or care if he is sick or healthy, happy or unhappy, or even what prison he is in (they move them around a lot if they are problems and he’s been moved quite a bit). I used to have a “network” of the mothers of other inmates who visited their sons regularly (like every weekend) so I could get messages about how my son was doing if for any reason there was anything “going on” that I needed to know about. I worried about him, I spent as much or more “mental time” with him (writing letters and reading letters) I probably sent him 25-50 pages of letters a week typed, and got somewhere between 20-50 pages of typed letters in reply. Our “relationship” was interesting and we talked about everything in the world from ideas to books, to what was going on in my life, or in his.

But it was a FANTASY relationship, just like some women will write to famous inmates and “fall in love” with them through the mails, I “fell in love with” my P-son, I fell under his “spell” that he would get out and come home and I’d have a wonderful relationship with him.

The first time he got out (18 yrs ago) and didn’t come home, he did it to “punish me” but believe me, I was NOT “punished”—and looking back on it now, I realize if he HAD COME HOME, it would have been ME THAT TURNED HIM IN, and he would have killed ME instead of the girl he did kill for “ratting him out to the cops.”

I can visualize the scene like a movie. I find out he is robbing again, and he comes home and I confront him, and tell him I am going to the phone to call the police and turn him in. He reaches in his pocket and pulls out a gun and blows my brains out.

I know myself well enough to know that I would have confronted him before I called the police, just like I did the last time I called the cops and turned him in when he was 17. I also know that he was determined that NO ONE was going to “get away with” turning him in to the police.

Even though it has been more than 20 years since I turned him in, the last time I saw him a couple of years ago, he was STILL talking about, and STILL mad about me turning him in then. Talk about holding a grudge.

The thing is, the MAN that is in prison is essentially a STRANGER to me, he isn’t my son, my son is DEAD. He isn’t going to come back to me. The MAN is using his organs, but he is NOT the little boy I loved. The little boy that I “buried” in my heart. I do not love that MAN, the MAN who tried to kill me. The MAN who hates my guts. The MAN who would cut my heart out with a rusty knife and smile while he did it. The MAN who is PROUD of the murder he committed. The MAN who sent his friend to infiltrate our family like a Trojan Horse. The MAN who knew this “friend” of his was sleeping with his brother’s wife, and it was OK with him. That MAN is not my son. My son is dead.

I don’t know if any of that makes any sense to anyone but me, but that’s the way I have “dealt with” the feelings about my P-son.

I held on to the TOXIC AND MALIGNANT HOPE that he would “revive”—but the “emotional life support” that I felt for him, was FANTASY, it was DELUSION, it was the P-FOG. I knew deep down that there wasn’t any hope, not any real hope, but I clung to the delusions because I WANTED to believe them. I wanted to believe that my son had a soul, that he wasn’t the monster that the MAN really is.

When the pain got so intense that I could no longer bear it, I had to let it go. Let go of the delusions.

I think, for me at least, the OBVIOUS cure for the pain, which is to LET GO OF THE RELATIONSHIP, never crossed my mind as being “possible.” It was NEVER considered as an option in any of the things I even thought of to do.

The same thing with the pain caused by my relationship with my mother, it just never crossed my mind that LETTING GO OF THE RELATIONSHIP was even an option. But it is the ONLY POSSIBLE CURE for the pain. The MAN isn’t going to change, and my mother isn’t going to change–so what are my options? Endure more pain that is so intense it is like putting your hand into a fire and trying to hold it there, or to move away from the source of the pain.

Even a flat worm can learn to avoid pain if you shock it enough times with high enough voltage to hurt it but not kill it. I think sometimes that I had to reach the point where the pain finally got through to me. You know the show on TV “Are you as smart as a fifth grader?” Well, I AM smarter than a flat worm. I will no longer associate with anyone who deliberately causes me pain, or who uses or abuses me. It doesn’t matter if I gave birth to them, or they gave birth to me. NOTHING gives anyone the right to abuse me, and I will NOT allow it.



my kids always wonder how I can joke around and tell funny stories about their dad when he was with us. I could never, ever trust him again.. he is truly dead to me like you said Ox..but I have forgiven him, because he’s a crazy psycho bleeeeep who has no clue what he’s doing. Still it took a long, long time, and my guard will never let down in his case.

I just hope to god I never have to come to that point with any of my kids. I probably could.. but it would kill me, I know I really wouldn’t care about living any more.. I live FOR my kids, only for them. I feel like a person who died long ago.. I’m on life support so my kids can see a body here to hug them and love them and smile at them..

Sometimes they really challenge me and act so unloving, and I have to stand up to them and fight for respect and for what’s right.. but really, I’m only doing it for them. I would like to have a life of my own again.. but I don’t know if that will ever happen for me.


Oxy I don’t know why but people, (especially bad people) just love to blame their parents. Maybe his hate allows him a reason to live or something.. me.. knowing my son hated me would kill me. I’m not as strong as you are. My oldest son is now going through a lot of rehashing his childhood and feeling angry about stuff, and sometimes he’s a total jerk to me about it.. but I gotta be patient with him, he just got home from the war, and was at the front the entire time, and he also quit smoking a week ago.

Ox Drover

Dear Kat,

When my kids were little, I was a stay at home mom until my divorce, and my kids were my focus and like you said “my life” though I did other things too, but everything centered around my kids. That is kind of a normal thing I think for moms. I used to dread the thought of my kids growing up and leaving home and how I would hate that “empty nest” syndrome thing that people talk about. But you know, I never really had it, after my P son left home at 17, my son C was home till after he finished college and for a year or so after that lived at home, then moved out, then came back, and then got married at 30 to the P-DIL. My adopted son D is 30 and still here most of the time, so I really haven’t had an “empty nest”–but D and I are more like roommates really, as he works off from time to time for a few months.

Letting go of son P did “nearly kill me” emotionally, it was HARD. I think in many ways it was harder than my husband’s death too, because there was absolutely NO bringing back a physically dead body, but where “there is life there is hope” (which is NOT always true). Also, with a physical death there are rituals, there is support and there is FACT. Indisputable FACT–they are DEAD.

There were times when P-son and I were NC for a while, a few months, etc. but I still had “emotional” contact, emotional worry and connection. But now, (head shaking here) the feeling of ANY contact is gone. I feel more connection to my late husband than I do to P-son.

In the 3-months after I found out about the murder, I was absolutely out of it, crazy as a bessie-bug. I locked myself in the house (I wasn’t working at the time) and cried, screamed, didn’t eat, didn’t sleep, and probably I should have been locked up. I didn’t try to hurt myself, but believe me I hurt more emotionally than if I had found out I had 3 months to live. I could have accepted that easier. The GRIEF and distress was worse, far worse, than the grief I felt over my husband’s death.

Finally a friend of mine who was a drector of nurses at a psych hospital kept calling me and wanting me to come to work for her there, and I did. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I actually think that it was God’s way of giving me the “help” I needed. I realized that there were kids there who were “worse” than my son, believe it or not. I started out doing intake interviews when parents would bring their kids in there, listen to their stories, listen to their grief, listen to their fears and frustrations that their own little budding psychopaths might be saved by being admitted to the psych hospital. I realized I WAS NOT ALONE in having a child who caused such grief. A child who did horrible things.

Raising children is a challenge and also very satisfying to me, and I enjoyed every day of my kids’ lives up until the P-son started his criminal career. EVen my older son, who is ADHD, who was definitely a “challenge to raise” was actually a good kid compared to so many I have seen. (In and out of the hospital) He wasn’t a liar, he didn’t hurt people or things deliberately, he was just ON THE MOVE ALL THE TIME.

My favorite age is about 10 or 11 cause they are so cool at that age and can be so interested in learning. I love doing demonstrations of the living history stuff to that age group, they are just great! In fact, November 7th I will be doing one for a middle school 5th grade class, 300 kids in all, 20 at a time.

Kat you say you are “not as strong” as I am, but that isn’t true. You are as strong as YOU THINK YOU ARE! We all are. The ONLY thing that limits our strength and our power is what we think about it.

I’m glad that your son came home in one piece from the war. War is such a horrible thing for anyone to experience I am sure. I’ve never been to war, but I have been in 3rd world countries where I have seen things that most Americans wouldn’t even believe, in the way of poverty and suffering, hunger, etc. I am sure that being in a war or even seeing that kind of thing, and the poverty etc. has a profound impact on any young person. It sure had a profound impact on me to see children without enough to eat, etc.

Kat, don’t ever put yourself down about how strong you are, if you do that again I will have to get the BIG SKILLET out and BOINK you, Girlfriend!!! You have faced a LOT and are still STANDING, so you give yourself a big pat on the back from me, and write 500 times “Kat is STRONG” and turn it in on Monday! LOL (Hugs)


lolz.. I’m not strong Oxy.. one of the problems in my life has been I’ve been raised by an incredibly strong, can-do woman, who tried everything to make me strong and independent, always told me I could do anything I put my mind to. And I am very strong, mentally. But emotionally I am quite fragile. I have very little will to live, and just like that smouldering wick it has to be protected and nurtured every day. Yet it remains a flickering fire at best. My mom may look down on me and think I don’t try hard enough, but she doesn’t know how hard it is for me just to even get out of bed and go to school.

I wish I had someone who wanted me to work for them. I think it would be very healing for me to have a job I can depend on, with a boss that cares. But since I’m not “disabled” I have to enter the job market with the rest, and there is nobody looking out for me there. One of these days I’ll break this barrier.

I hope to break down some of my fear of dating too. I’m very lonely right now but of course avoiding men. However, I’m trying to keep reaching out in a limited way, and not to seal myself off completely (this blog is one of the ways I do this).


BTW Oxy I completely agree with you that working at the hospital must have been good for you.. not to feel so alone. Parents of murderers, I’ve always felt so sorry for them.. What consolation can they find?


Kat o nine tales,

I am a mum and sometimes my daughter says to me that I am too critical, what I think I’m saying to her is not what she is hearing. What I am doing is constructive criticism to help her develop, things such as telling her to make sure she doesnt rush her homework and does it to her ability. looking at where things could improve, but in a supportive way. I think the emotional turmoil S has caused has affected her confidence and so anything that could be seen as critisism however well meaning is very hurtful. I am now much more careful how I approach things with her. I’m sure your mother doesnt realise how it upsets you, would you feel able to tell her. Are you so sure that your mum looks down on you, or is that your perception of the situation? I think your no feeling very strong at the moment because you could have low confidence, have you thought about doing some volunteer work, that is sometimes a good way to get a feel for the workplace and can lead to paid employment in a fulfilling job. the positive in this is that your mum cared enough to bother about how you developed as a person, lots dont. I wish you the best.

Ox Drover

Dear Kat,

I think Moraira’s suggestion of some volunteer work would be a GREAT idea! After I found out about the murder I shut myself off from everyone, literally lockedmyself in the house, didn’t answer the door, or the phone, and of course that was the worst thing I could have done. I was so ALONE even though I had my MIL, husband and son C living at home at that time. Good neighbors and good friends.

Sometimes when we have a “strong” parent, their “can do” attitude intimidates us. My mother was a business woman who even though she hit the “glass ceiling” still did very well in the business world. She was always giving me “constructive criticism” too—and second guessing my business and working decisions. Judging me if you will was my perception of it. I felt like no matter what I did I couldn’t measure up to her.

Your mom may not have been tryhing to “discourage” your strength but the RESULT may have been that you felt like you couldn’t “measure up” to her—just like I did. My mom’s continuall “encouragement” did just the OPPOSITE, and that is kind of what I am “hearing” coming from you.

Until I actually QUIT CARING what my mom things about me, I never felt competent even though I was competent.

I KNOW how hard it is to go to school and pass and work hard at school and have kids to raise, so if you can DO THAT, you CAN do whatever you want Kat. TELLING yourself you are NOT STRONG though, is MAKING YOU NOT STRONG.

The self-concepts we have, the “self talk” we do INFLUENCES what we are ABLE to do. I know you FEEL not strong, and it will take some time to change that, so I think the get a volunteer job, at the hospital, or a shelter or some place, doesn’t matter where you volunteer–the animal shelter, so me place that you can be appreciated and get some confidence in your abilities. I know you have them, you couldn’t have gotten that far in school without them.

You are right, there are groups for Parents of Murdered Children but there are no support groups for the parents of the killers, and we have “lost” just as much–we have lost our children. I have been “emotionally punished” 1000 times worse than my son has been punished by him being in prison. I think it is his natural environment, but for him being there I was “hung, drawn and quartered” emotionally. There is nothing that could have made me hurt worse, and there were times I would gladly have traded places with the mother of the girl he killed, and have had him dead and her in prison. It would have been easier on me.


Oxdrover have you not thought of setting up such a group, I’m sure there are so many parents around the world with the same emotional turmoil and no one to turn to, I think that sometimes parents of muderers are tarnished with the same brush as the murderer as if they could have prevented it. I think you seem a very knowledgeable and grounded person and have excellent insight, I think you would be very successful.

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

Yes, I have thought about it, but until recently I was running a pretty good sized farm, two businesses and working as well. Then after my husband died 4 1/2 yrs ago, the PTSD and the constant P-chaos, taking care of my elderly and sick step father until his death, my mother’s illness and health and indpendence decline, etc. so “haven’t had time.” LOL

I am in the process of looking at starting some support group(s) but right now I am still focusing on my OWN healing and regaining my own strength. Part of my own problems is that I have GIVEN TOO MUCH TO OTHERS and not enough for myself most of my entire life–both personally and professionally–and so taking care of ME and learning about me, and regaining my own strength both physically and emotionally and mentally have been the priority for me, and only since August last year (after the arrest of my DIL and her BF, the Trojan HOrse P my son sent to kill us) have I even had a chance to START healing. I was a “basket case” emotionally and physically in August of last year. I didn’t get treatment for the tick fever until September.

I am learning to set boundaries for those close to me, friends and family. I still have the “urge” to help others, but am doing it ONLY in a “helpful” way, not in an enabling way. When I find myself being manuvered into the position of “enabling” others to continue their dysfunctional behavior I have to set boundaries and I am learning to do so WITHOUT GUILT. I am no longer taking on the responsibility for other people’s bad decisions and actions, and I am not allowing others to impose on me. That’s a BIG step for me. Taking care of ME is my most important lesson right now. The other will come, in time, God willing, but right now, I don’t have the reserve strength to reach out that direction.

Blogging here has helped me too, in that I think I can help others and be supportive, but I can do that at my own time, my own pace, and I also GET more from this blog than I ever give.


I totally understand where your coming from you are right it is about healing yourself. Just to realise that is half the battle.


first let me admit that i haven’t been able to read thru this entire thread . . . i’m in too much pain right now to take in other’s situations and pain . . .

so if i sound disconnected . . . i am.

if i sound out of sorts . . . i am.

tonight i’m finally lettting go of my 18 year relationship with a diagnosised sociopath. 18 years to this day. 16 years married as of 10/03.

it’s hard for me to write this. i HAVE to believe it’s finally over. i need strength in putting an end to it.

i need help. no one (obviously for all the obvious reasons) in my narrow world would comprehend or understand.

i need help letting this go.

i just need help . . . like i’ve never needed it before.

the most important thing is that i don’t let him walk back in. everytime he does, i die a little bit more. i don’t feel like i can afford to give up anything more.

i need help to finally end this.

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