By | September 24, 2008 117 Comments

When psychopaths compare notes

Lovefraud recently received an e-mail from a reader telling us about discussion on another Internet forum called PsychForums. Here’s what he wrote:

Found an interesting set of postings. On PsychForums. “Craving for Antisocial Behavior.” With postings between four psychopaths. Arguing for various positions With general agreement that society has infringed on them. And so deserves the revenge. Sounding like people are viewed similarly to enemy combatants. And deserve what they get.

Alternate view is that people’s revulsion against psychopaths is understandable. That people don’t want bad things to happen to them. So don’t be a fool and don’t get caught or cry unfair. There are plenty of ways to enjoy life without having to risk jail to get it.

Seems to sum up the psychopath side of the story fairly well.

If you want to know how these psychopaths think, read their discussion:

PsychForums: “Craving for Antisocial Behavior”

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WARNING the first few lines that I read were really disturbing. I couldn’t read anymore.


Wow. Just wow.

Here is a quote from one of the bloggers:
“Steal? No. Murder? No. Do I have the urge to murder? Yes; it’s all in check though. I lie and deceive everyday, because I don’t see the harm in it. If it’s done right, nobody can call you on it. Words like “lie” and “deceive” are based on ideas of morality, which I don’t have any moralistic stance on anything. I lie if presented the opportunity – if it’s socially acceptable.”

This quote speaks for itself. I have nothing to say.


Stargazer: Cowards lie. Righteous folks speak the truth.

It is easy to take the cowards way through life.

Notice no matter how difficult something is in life, righteous people get up, brush themselves off and go forward.

Where do the cowards go? Around and around and around and around. Oh, yeah, up and down to … roller coaster rides.

If anyone did to them what they do to others … then you’d see a psycho cry?


It’s like they are missing a piece–a very important piece–that would make them human. They know they are not quite like other humans and they don’t fit in. And they have their own logic, which they all seem to relate to. “If it feels good, do it”. It’s also interesting the projections they have on other people. They think we think murder is wrong only because we don’t want it to happen to us. They don’t get that we actually feel compassion when others are hurt. They are missing a whole dimension to their personality–the dimension of real emotion. I find it very fascinating and something I couldn’t even begin to relate to. I’m trying to imagine putting myself in the shoes of someone who thinks like this. How would I see the world if people’s feelings didn’t matter and if I thought morals were silly constructs that serve no purpose. I cannot even imagine a world like this.

I’ve also been reading about different personality disorders in a book called Bioenergetics. He talks about the body armoring of the different disorders and how their body types even develop in predictable ways. The premise is that if the energy blockages can be released in a safe way, the person can be more grounded in reality. As a massage therapist (and former psych major) I find this all very interesting. The only thing I found myself agreeing with in those blogs is that ASPD’s should be studied so a cure can be found.


wow… That’s some twisted,creepy shit on that psycho-site…

Can’t stand reading it….

That Bionergetics book sounds interesting. I just finished “The Sociopath Nest Door” and tonight I began “Snakes in Suits”…


I’m curious how you like those 2 books. Ironically, I’m wearing one of my snakes (boa constrictors) around my neck right now. He is the sweetest, most docile animal you could ever ask for. 🙂

Regarding the Bioenergetics book, I have always been very interested in energy, how it gets bound up in the body, and how certain blockages cause disorders. I have been firm believer for a long time that curing any mental illness involves physically grounding the body. That means releasing blocked energy.

According to the book, the sociopath has a rigid band of energy across the waist, dividing the body energetically into two separate halves. In the sadistic type, the energy rises up toward the head and leaves the lower have of the body with a weak connection to the ground. That is why a lot of these people look top heavy (my stepfather was one of these people, and had the classic body type). The energy is displaced upward because they are so preoccupied with ego and control. I’m not sure about the body type of the seductive kind of sociopath. But for sure, if the two halves of the body are disconnected, they can use and abuse sex without having any feelings about it. There are also bands of energy around the neck and pelvis. Theoretically, if these bands of tension could be released and the energy safely grounded, the person could actually recover from their condition.

Hope I haven’t bored anyone too much. I find this stuff fascinating.


StarG: There’s no room in their lives for love or concern about others … the BIG GREED fills their waking hours. And, I do think they dream … it’s all misty green with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.



I wonder if anyone monitors those blogs and keeps tabs on these P’s. They probably commit crimes and blog about them. Do they get caught from the blogs?


Hey Stargazer,

my X sociopath was definetly concerned with EGO and control… He had tons of sexual energy too, which I’ve learned is another classic sociopathic quaility…

In fact he could really be “America’s Next Top Sociopath” if anyone ever creates a reality show about sociopaths competing for who has the most classic characteristics!!! LOL

The “Sociopath Next Door” was interesting and the “Snakes in Suits” seems to be good so far..

I would much rather hang out with your boa constrictor than any of those human snakes…

Good night to all and God bless…



before I go to bed, that was an interesting question you had about the P blogs… I wonder also if they are compelled to BRAG about their sick antics and/or crimes on those blogs..

To everyone, Good night and Peace out…


WOW.. that blog was eye-opening to say the least! You don’t usually hear such honesty from people like that. The most shocking part is they way they all feel alienated from society and like they should either take advantage of or punish “moral” people.

My ex-bf has been battling kidney disease his whole life, and I know he sometimes feels like “getting even” with the healthy people who don’t have to deal with it. Makes no sense I know.. but there it is.

ian in hamburg

I hope I am not too late to post this comment as I see there is already a new post above it.

For all those healthy people or those recovering from contact with a psychopath / sociopath:

Be very careful on the psychforums site.

Though there are healthy people who go on there seeking information and help, it is also a nest of the most vile creatures you are ever going to deal with – especially the narcissistic personality, anti-social, psychotic and borderline boards.

I know because a while back I used that site to get information and help in getting rid of a narcissist. I made the mistake though of hanging around and getting into tangles with the narcissists on the board – probably as a proxy to not having properly ended it with the real narcissist even though that person was no longer in my life.

Moderation is also a problem. They are NOT professionals, and could even be disordered themselves. You never know.

Again – be very very careful on


Hi ian in hamburg: Thanks for the warning. I know for myself there are anti-socials in all walks of life as well as humble people in these same positions. It’s a crap shoot, for sure, figuring out who you are dealing with at every turn through life.

I was very lucky to talk with a compassionate counselor when I first learned of my EX. This woman gets the highest ratings from me if we can rank therapists we come across in life.

Personally, I see two major reasons why therapist go into their field.

The first is the positive desire to want to help people.

The second is negative anti-socials wanting to figure themselves out, then continuing in the field to manipulate others with the knowledge they learned.

I’m sure there is reasons three, four, five etc.

It’s figuring out who is working from a humble perspective versus who is working from their egos. Paying attention to RED flags when they go off.


Ox Drover


To answer your question about them being “compelled” to brag about stuff. I THINK SO. At least my P-son seemed like that he WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW he was a “Billy Bad Ass” and he got off on getting away with stuff AND PEOPLE KNOWING.

He has a special hatred for me, because I “won” a few of his games when he was a teenager, and I actually called the cops and turned him in when I caught him with some stolen merchandise. Heck, that was 20+ years ago and he is STILL FRIED about that!

If they did crimes SECRETLY (which some of them do) who would know what a “Billy Bad Ass” they are? I think having others KNOW is a BIG PART of the THRILL for SOME of them. Not all. Ted Bundy was a SECRET killer, John Wayne Gayce (spelling on that name?) was a SECRET killer, but others like BTK killer wrote notes to the cops in their GAMES of violence. It was “better” if they “took credit” for it.

I couldn’t read much on the link, it got too sickening pretty quick. It was like PORNO, it was so degrading.

Thanks for the link, Donna. Sheesh!


Oxy: The bragging they do … is because they don’t walk a righteous path. Think about it. If you take a righteous path, what’s the first thing you are going to do? The work.

You do the work first, learn how the work is done because you are doing it.

Learn the wisdom how its done.

Reap the rewards for completing the work.

What are some of the rewards?

Knowledge of how to do the work.

Building a firm foundation in who you are (so you can stay humble in the knowledge you did the work … here’s the part that “they” dont’ know, staying humble …so they brag).

It’s all the same … all the same, day in, day out, their names are changed, sexes are changed, stories are simiiar, but they are all the same.



I remember a riddle I read in Farmer’s Almanac growing up (bear with me, I’m going somewhere with this): 3 guys went to an Inn and got a room for $30. Each one contributed $10 for the room. As they were on their way up to the room, the Innkeeper realized he had over charged them $5. So he gave the bellboy (is that the right word?) $5 to take back to the 3 men. But on the way up there, the bellboy realized that the men had forgotten to tip him. So he kept $2 for himself and gave them back $3. Each man got $1 back, which meant they each contributed $9. However, 3 X $9 is $27. If you add on the $2 that the bellboy took, that makes only $29. What happened to the other dollar?

We spent weeks and weeks trying to figure it out before we looked up the answer. Turns out there was no answer because it was an “illogical silliloquy” (I think that was the term).

This is how I feel every time I try to make sense of the relationship with the ex. It just doesn’t make sense. I keep hitting brick walls. The whole relationship began and ended with lies.


StarG: That’s the $1.00 answer. You GOT IT.



Totally unbelievable!!

Will of course need time to read and see what I am really reading. Pathological liars tend to distort all concept of fantasy and reality and then one doesn’t really see what is “behind” the text. These writers are proud for what they wish to “convince” others as to how they feel understand and comprehend…

1 Timothy 3:6

“Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”


James: At least none of us are stuck thinking inside the box about them. It could be worse.


Good post on 1 Timothy 3:6


I felt physically ill when I read their twisted words. I couldn’t read through to the end because I simply felt too sick. Maybe my own pain is still too new and raw but I feel like I have no emotional defences against these beasts except for my now extreme wariness in letting ANYONE get close to me.

When I hear about these monsters I feel an almost overwhelming rage and intense frustration because I cannot wipe them from the face of the Earth. There are times when I wish I didn’t know about them – I wish I could take a break from knowing “people” like them are out there, blithely maiming and destroying lives.


Odette that’s the first defense for sure.. later I guess it’s more the knowledge we build, and of course a healthy dose of skepticism.

newworld view

jeepers i found it difficult to read mostly because i couldnt even UNDERSTAND it……it was the most disconnected connection of words….i really found it hard to connect the thoughts


You know I’ve noticed with sociopaths it is really difficult to understand what their trying to say..

Just like the Unibomber’s insane manifesto…( I took a look at it after I realised my X was a sociopath) Grandiose language, but the ideas made very little sense…

My X wrote me a manifesto of his own…full of defensiveness and twisted justifications for his sick actions…


wow. you got a manifesto. my ex-s/p/n would never give me a card or a note … nothing to be used as ‘evidence’.
no pictures allowed. no voice mails. no emails.
makes me wonder just now many OW there were! my guess is four.


Stormee, Ted Kaczynski, the unabomber, was diagnosed by federeal forensic psychiatrist Sally Johnson as a paranoid schizophrenic, which is probably why his manifesto is confusing.


yeah ..his manifesto was a product of his lack of self control (impulsiveness) that is another classic sociopathic trait… I gave it to the police along with his sick text messages (to myself and my teenage daughter) and his insane voice messages…. He was told to leave me alone or he would be charged with stalking, which would cause him to lose his job as a firefighter… (This was not the first time a woman had to go to the police about him)

It has been 2 months of NC… I still get pissed about him not being brought to justice…. Typical sociopath, slipped threw the cracks like a cockroach…


Here is a test to see if you can think like a sociopath. See if you can answer this question:

A woman meets a man at her mother’s funeral. He is her dream man, wonderful in every way. They talk for hours, but she forgot to get his phone number.

The next day she killed her sister. Why?



I’ve read that a sociopath often has a collection of mental disorders along with “anti-social disorder” …

Can’t figure out the riddle, Stargazer…

I’m off to watch the debates (McWar strikes me as an arrogant narcissist, anyone else notice that?)

Peace out…

newworld view

living with one taught me well……id guess killed the sis so thered be another funeral

Ox Drover

Hey, NWV, good to see you back! Yep, that’s the answer to the riddle. And it is SOOOOO PSYCHOPATHIC.

I didn’t even turn on the debate as I knew it would pi$$ me off. I guess that is the “bury my head in the sand” defense against all the crap that is going on in our country! I think they are at BEST Ns, and many of them are psychopaths! I have been reading a really good book about the way cultures and societies and countries collapse becasue the rulers do what is best for themselves personally regardless of what it does to their country or culture. Always been that way, and looks like it always will be. Can’t do anything about it, so might as well not sweat and stew over it. I’ve got enough to do with the things that I can do something about.

The Unibomber was “out of touch with reality” which the psychopaths are not. The unibomber thought he was doing “good” (although we didn’t). If you “hear voices” coming from the TV or the wall or whereever, that tell you to bomb the local school and you do it, you are NOT held responsible by law, you are “not guilty by reason of mental defect”–you are “legally insane.” You are NOT in touch with reality.

That is NOT the case with the Ps. The Ps ARE in touch with reality, they KNOW WHAT IS “RIGHT AND WRONG” BY SOCIETY’S DEFINITION, they just do not accept it. When they commit a crime, the law holds them responsible because they DO know it is wrong to bomb a school, or kill a person, or rob a bank.

The “missing piece” is a conscience. It also seems to me that there is no “spirituality” there, and that they have no real meaning in life. How awful it must be to have no other desires in life, no apsirations above sex, power, money, control, etc. all the things that are “temporary” or that can be “easily lost”–to have no LOVE, care, concern, just to brag about what a “Billy Bad Ass” you are to people that you don’t even care about, but somehow you want their admiration.

My P bio father made no bones about how he despised the rest of the human race, what pieces of chit he thought they were, and yet, and yet, he CRAVED their admiration. He wanted them to admire him, to envy him. The only people who did admire him, who cared about him, he despised them even more for doing so. There was no way for him to have any satisfaction or peace at all. He was always an angry, hate-filled person trying to prove to the people he despised that he was better than they were.

They are like stage actors, they require an audience. Without an audience to their evil, they don’t exist. They aren’t real.


OMG!! Did anyone see McWar??? Looked like he was going to blow! The rage was right under the surface….

Ox D.,
That last line you wrote is so true, my X totally craved an audience


You got it, new world! You obviously have experience with one who thinks like this. I could not figure that riddle out to save my life! Apparently, that question was asked of various prisoners in a state facility. A large majority of them knew the answer.


It is very very hard to wrap my mind around the way a sociopath thinks. I have to really force myself to think that if my ex ever came back, it wouldn’t be because he genuinely missed me or cared about me. It would be because he thinks I’m an easy source of supply. It’s kind of disheartening to have to think like this. It’s profoundly sad and creepy.


I am just incredulous that there are real people out there who think this way. Did you catch that one guy who said that “normal people don’t really care when someone is murdered. They just don’t want it to happen to them.”

Not only can they not feel empathy, but they don’t even grasp the concept of empathy!! They think we’re all faking it!!!! Did you catch that? Wow. I just cannot wrap my mind around that mentality.



I agree. It is very sad and creepy… Devalue and discard and onto the next poor victim.


I agree. It is very sad and creepy… Devalue and discard and onto the next poor victim.


I didn’t like reading about them, but I did and I think it is good to know what they think and feel and to hear it from the source. It confirm’s what we all know -and we are all on the same side of the pain. So it put’s thing’s into perspective for me…creepy .. but hey we all lived with one – loved one – so we need to listen and recognize them next time they speak too us….


Amen to that Henry. God forbid we should ever experience that again!


Reading that pshyco blog makes you want to take a shower. Yucccckk!. And yes they don’t make sense. The twisted sex and porn thing is ALL to familiar. And “enjoy life” means screw people over and take what you want.

I have been consulting with family law attorneys lately and some of them have REAL good experience and insights about these folk as they have both acted for and against P’s. When I tell my story they spot my P right away. They do concede that if you are married to one, they can play you for a long time.

I would like to once again recommend the film “The Corporation” VERY instructive about P’s and how our corporate world is structured around their type of behavior. Profits before people and all that kind of thing. Puts why we are where we are at in clear perspective.

In the case of the corporation and it’s role in society as a P, (think of the fascist bail out of the greedy thieves on Wall st.)
In the case of the corporation, we can take legal remedies, by removing rights that corp’s have usurped, especially their “right” to “personhood” ie, all our civil rights, only for a legal fiction, the corporate “person” ( So for example you can’t keep a toxic dump out of your community because your would be violating the “corp. persons” 13th ammendment right to not be discrimminated against etc) Lovely.

What I am saying here is that we have allowed an entity that is structured to behave like a P to have the rights of people, and allowed them access to “owning” our government, media, and effectively our military. Hence the current mess.

We are not fighting a “War on Terror” we are fighting a corporate war for corporate P’s. And the sickest irony is that the “poverty draft” caused by corporate greed and imablance in allocation of public resources, is causing people to join the military to fight these wars, as the economy is too top heavy to afford them meaningful, upwardly mobile work in a peaceful economy.

So that is where the “successful” P’s gather. The halls of power, the top of the steaming pile.

Thanks, all, for the rant. Cheers


Yeah Star that is really crazy.. they do think our show of emotion is all an act. No wonder they don’t react to our tears. They think we are just trying to get our way or something. I’ve wondered so many times how they can come back and act like nothing is wrong after they say horrible things to us and get all the kids crying.


The only thing I’ve ever had any success with is refusing to “go back to normal”, to play their game and act like nothing happened. Sometimes if you keep saying “I’m not going to act like nothing happened after the things you said.”, they get the message that it’s IMPORTANT to watch what they say around you. You can’t make them feel it, but since they are actors sometimes they do revise how they act around you and the kids, which cuts down on the suffering.


I know my ex figured out that if he continued to say he was gonna call, then not call, he would lose me. After he did that a few times, I stopped taking his calls. He finally apologized and said he would “try not to do it again.” He didn’t even realize it was a hurtful behavior. He just saw how I reacted and didn’t want to lose his supply. So he tried very hard to call when he said he was going to. The words were everything to him and his actions meant nothing. He would say all the things he knew I wanted to hear. Then turn around and do the opposite. And he couldn’t understand why I was hurt by it. He also thought I had a long memory to remember the things he promised. Obviously, the S’s live more for the moment, just doing whatever they want to do.


StarG: Remember what they are the opposite of the Virtues in life because they don’t work on their spiritual growth:

Practicing these virtues is alleged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins:

Humility against Pride
Kindness against Envy
Abstinence against Gluttony
Chastity against Lust
Patience against Anger
Liberality against Greed
Diligence against Sloth


StarG: If they don’t work on the virtues in life, they get caught up in the spin of sin … once sin after another. They need to get down on their knees and pray to God to allow them to get closer to him. God will do the rest … but they need to do this, we can’t do it for them. We can pray for them that they will get on their knees (humbling themselves to the creator).

They believe in themselves … they are their own little gods. God has it all built in to his plan … believe and have faith in me … or go through the perpetual spin of all the vices (sins) in life.

Take your pick. They chose, consciously chose not to obey and respect God.



And I know some of you think this is malarky cause of the day and age we are in.

But, if God didn’t create us, then who did?

Do you really think this is someone’s imagination … all the millions of souls on the planet, billions and trillions of relationships, families … for all the years that humans have been alive?

It’s the same thing over and over and over again, different generations, different times in history, different names, places etc. but it’s all the same. Either you believe in God and live your life righteously the way he wants us to live, follow in Jesus’ way of living life, or you don’t.

All our EXs don’t live their lives righteously and there is no substance to them except sin. Hollow, no substance, no depth to them … sin. They are in a perpetual spin of all the major vices (sin) … no matter who’s bed they jump into, who’s life they destroy next, we can’t help them, only they can help themselves and that takes them getting out of their big egos, humbling themselves to God.

That’s it in a nutshell.



I don’t think it’s malarky Wini but I do not know where I stand on it anymore. For me being a Christian greatly strengthened my desire to stay with my first husband, and I did stay many more years than I would have, for God’s sake.

Then my second marriage I was trying to be a good Christian, we didn’t sleep together before marriage, and then I found out the guy had NO DESIRE for a physical relationship at all.. and here I was married to the guy… this was really crushing to me.

Now I can’t really fit in with the church folks anymore because I made up my mind, I’m not ever going to do that again.. and I’m not ready to give up and stay single for the rest of my life either. So while I will never be into casual sex or a wild lifestyle, my Christian friends and family members relate to me as they would any outsider, telling me all the time I need to get right with God. This is true.. but I am really not sure how it’s all going to pan out for me.


Hey Kat: No one, believe me, no one wants you to have to deal with the likes of them (your EXs I am referring to). They (your EXs) are learning lessons in life … to stay focused on living a righteous life. Your EXs (as well as all of ours) chose to live life through listening to their big egos (Erasing God Out). That’s why God has it built into humanity … free will. You don’t want to believe in him … here’s the vices of the world, you can spin in those vices for years, repeating it and repeating it and repeating it. Only when they kneel and pray to God, will God get them out of the cycle of vices.

You walking into their path … wasn’t planned, and you are in pain so you will keep your eyes and heart and soul focused on God … God is allowing this pain for you and all the rest of us to grow bigger and better than we were before.

There is no shortcut in life. We can’t wave a magic wand and say ‘poof, you are healed from all your pain”. What we are experiencing is like childbirth … the pain of childbirth … then the child is born and grows from the pain of labor.

This is our labor pains … having anti-socials come into our space … causing us pain … and we know they are not living righteous lives … that’s why we are all blogging about the vices they created in our space. We know right from wrong. We know that we can change them through our love … they have to change themselves … no one, and I mean no one can do this for them. They have to get down on their knees and admit to God, that God is their creator. Period. They can change their lives … they have to first admit it, pray to God … and God will help them live a righteous life.

Right now, you need to heal yourself from the pain. Which means NO CONTACT with your ex and all the nonsense he brings into your space. NO contact for a reason. To heal, get your thoughts together … go through the growth of this pain … come out bigger and better person because of it.



I meant to write “we can’t change them with our love”.

We can pray for them and love them from a distance … but that’s it. NO contact. No contact for a reason … so they can’t spin us around in their vice world. WE are TRUTH, they are LIES.



All respect to you all regardless of beliefs, but I always want to put something for the people who find this marvellous forum but don’t believe in God.

I believe human beings are altruistic not because anyone tells them to but because they’ve evolved that way – it’s an evolutionarily stable strategy. I could waffle on at mind-numbing length about this but to anyone wanting a really inspiring text that provides an alternative explanation of morality then please read ‘The Selfish Gene’ by Richard Dawkins. (NB: *Gene*, not selfish human!) In short, humans don’t like selfish people and they will ultimately never thrive because the bulk of us aren’t built that way. Anyway – the book made my heart sing because it’s a beautiful account of the world and nature and because I totally believe in goodness and this gave an explanation that didn’t defy logic. (My encounter with the sociopath, who constantly tried to turn all rationality on its head, made logic massively important to me). Anyway I heartily recommend Dawkins’s book if you are interested in a scientific explanation of ethics.

Anyway, I just wanted to give an alternative opinion. (I feel the need to put it because my ex-sociopath liked to try and mangle my mind with religion and it didn’t guide him anywhere good…not that I think any of his stated beliefs were sincerely held of course!)


I don’t see the sociopath’s problem as spiritual in origin, but it becomes spiritual because ethics and morality are brought into question by their actions. I believe there is a defense system operating in them that renders them totally incapable of connecting to feelings. The defense mechanism of denial is the most primal and toughest to crack. Theoretically, sociopaths could change, but they just don’t have the motivation. They don’t know what love is so that doesn’t motivate them. They are not motivated by fear because they deny that feeling too. The healing process would probably be terrifying and quite painful if they ever embarked on it. There are reasons those defenses are there in the first place, and they hold in some pretty horrible feelings. If the sociopath ever broke through their defenses, there is no guarantee they would know what empathy is, if they never had it as a child. In the most fantastic case scenario that a sociopath was able to heal, they would probably be suicidal from remorse.

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