By | September 25, 2008 66 Comments

Radio show to discuss the children of sociopaths

Sociopathy is a disorder that doesn’t afflict a person as much as it does his/her family! Since the disorder is also partly genetic it afflicts the family for generations. This week I have heard many amazing and tragic stories and I would like to share a few of them with you. These stories are about the children of sociopaths.

I am working on a project to document symptoms of psychopathy in accused and convicted con artists. As part of this project I am interviewing the family members of con artists. That is how I became acquainted with the 17 year old daughter of a convicted con artist. She wrote me a nice note saying that if I wanted to know about her father, I should study conduct disorder (CD), because she discovered through her own reading that her father has that disorder. She wanted to know if I had heard of it.

This teenager did what many of you have done. She looked up symptoms of different mental disorders and found CD, she felt it described her father very well. CD is the diagnosis given to children who appear to be sociopaths. At 17, the girl figured out for herself that her father is a sociopath.

Even though this teenager is able to attach a label to her father’s disordered behavior, she is still coming to grips with what the diagnosis means. She is still trying to understand why and how from prison, her father was able to get a “girlfriend” to transfer money out of her mother’s bank account to his prison account so he could buy junk food at the prison store.

Another girl who grew up under the shadow of a sociopath is now nearly 30. She described very eloquently what it feels like to be confused about reality because your custodial parent lied to you every day about everything and alienated you from your mother. She is hoping for a way to heal and to feel she has a place in this world.

I also spoke to a grandma who is raising 3 boys in 3rd and 4th grade, her grandsons. She married a man many years ago who fathered two children with her before abandoning her. In spite of doing her best as a single mom, both of her children became sociopaths and were unable to parent. She is working very hard to provide for the three kids. Her task is made all the more difficult when the children visit with their sociopathic parents. She tried to keep visits limited to supervised visits, but was unsuccessful because the sociopaths “conned the court.” She believes one of the boys was just molested by his mother during unsupervised visitation. She can’t understand why the courts keep putting the children in harm’s way.

Tonight two students gave presentations in the University Child Development class I teach. The first student works for an agency that links female offenders with services to help them get stable rather than reoffend. She said that 75% of the women have young children and that many witnessed the criminal arrest of their mothers. Many also are abused when placed in the foster care system after mom goes to prison.

The second student told her own story. Her niece came to live with her many years ago at age 15 when she was orphaned due to her mother being killed in a car accident. Her niece had two children by two different men one year apart beginning at age 17. She has been very unstable with multiple arrests, is a sociopath and has been unable to care for the boys who are now 13 and 14. My student initially got custody of the youngest boy when he was small, but lost it to the child’s biologic father who is also a sociopath. She believes the father wanted his son because with the child in tow he had access to the homeless shelters for families. At the shelters there were plenty of women for him to pursue.

To make a long story short, my student got full custody of the boys when they were 7 and 8. Unfortunately much damage was already done as both children are emotionally disturbed. One boy has issues with violent behavior, animal cruelty and fire setting. He has been in residential placement for the last 2 years.

What point am I trying to make? Look at all the suffering and ruined potential sociopathic parents cause. On Friday 9/26/2008, 12 noon EST, Robin Hoffman author of I Take Thee, and survivor of a relationship with a sociopath, will be interviewing me on her radio show. We will speak about the needs of the children of sociopaths. To listen visit . You can also call in to ask a question or share your story 303 747-5121, show ID 226305.

ADDENDUMIf you didn’t hear the show you can still listen to it. It can be found in the archives 9/26 see you all for commenting and supporting each other. Perhaps what we need is a protective parent’s organization. I have collected literature about sociopaths as parents. There isn’t much. If you would like my file please feel free to write.

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That sounds like a great idea. seeing as that it is a topic that definitely needs to be addressed more in general, but how long will this talk show go on for? There are so many people out there that do not know anything about them or what they are capable of. I think this topic could be talked about forever. This website is a prime example.

Ox Drover

You need to get on Oprah or some other show that reaches MILLIONS in one day!

I guess a radio show in the middle of the day is at least a START! Of course there is “no fanatic like a convert” and everyone on this blog is definitely a CONVERT and we want to shout from the house-tops what the psychopaths are and what they do.

Sociologists are recognizing now that there are a GREAT MANY grandparents raising their grandchildren in our society today. I would be “willing to bet” that many of these children are the offspring of psychopaths. I know a woman in my community who has just taken in her GREAT granddaughter who is 3, a beautiful child, but her mother is a psychopath in prison and her father is a dangerous paranoid schizophrenic.

The woman raising the little girl is a bright woman, who grew up in a poverty situation, married a P very young, had P children, P grandchildren and now is trying to salvage this little girl who has more Ps in her family tree than I do. Fortunately the GGM is now married to a very bright, very caring man who is a few years younger than her (and since there has only been 16 + or – years between generations, is fairly young for a GGM herself.

Just the fact that the disorder has genetic components being recognized by “science” and “medicine” I think is a wonderful step forward. Keep spreading the word!

Ox Drover

I just “flashed” on something. There are several species of BIRDS that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. When their egg hatches among the babies of the other “foster” bird, they push the babies of the “foster” bird out of the nest and get all of the food.

This lazy but successful way of rearing their young reminds me of the psychopaths. They spread their seed, then abandon the seed to the normal parent to cope with. The “bad seed” pushes the normal chldren around and takes all the energy from the normal parent who is trying to save them from themselves, not realizing that they too are really a psychopath.


Oxy don’t get mad at me dear, but I do not believe in evil children. I’m one of those people that thinks until the child is making his own decisions the parents are responsible for his behavioral patterns. Of course this doesn’t stop them from deciding to be useless P’s as adults. And I know there are personalities in kids that make it real hard to get them to care about others.. but it’s not impossible. They all start out as innocent babies, and I don’t think it’s impossible for any child to grow up healthy with lots of encouragement and a little bit of luck.

Ox Drover

Dear Kat,

Sweetie, I could never get “mad” at you for expressing your opinon. That’s what this blog is all about. All I ever do is express my opinion, that’s all any of us can do. Feeling safe here to express an opinon, when in our P relationships we weren’t allowed to have “opinions” is healing.

I don’t believe that a child is born an alcohholic either, but they have the genes that predispose them to becoming alcoholics and then they make the CHOICE to drink. I think the P thing is the same way. If they make an “evil” or “bad” choice and get “rewarded” for it by succeeding in getting what they want then they are more likely to repeat that behavior.

But the way the Ps “spread” their seed and move off, leaving those children who have the PREDISPOSITION to problem behaviors, lack of impulse control etc. for the “normal” parent to raise gives the “normal” parent a real challenge, especially if they dont’ know waht they are dealing with. A P guy for example who has 7 or 8 kids by 6 or 7 women and moves off leaving the women to raise the kids, has an increased chance of spreading his “bad genes” than the normal guy who has only 1 or 2 children and stays around to raise them.

My biological father was a RAGING PSYCHOPATH and I don’t think I am one, but I obviously had some genes to pass on, because my youngest biological son is a RAGING PSYCHOPATH and my older son is NOT. Both of my bio boys have BOTH grandfathers who are Ps, and their dad is NOT a P though he has other problems, mainly depression from being the child of an abusive P, so my kids got the “chance” to be a P from both sides of the genetics lotto, but only one of them made the CHOICES that led to the behavior.

Environment, in my opinon, gives some options to help over come the genes, but the genes I think DO predispose, not dictate. My P son has CHOICES, he made those CHOICES when he was a teenager and has been evil ever since. When he was little, he was the ideal child, but I have seen some in inpatient settings that were pure evil by the time they were 10 or 11. Pure psychopath, though you can’t “legally” label them that at that age.

I just flashed on the way the cow bird and I think the coo coo too, can’t remember for sure, lay their eggs in other bird’s nests so that they can lay more eggs and get someone else to raise them than they could hatch out if they raised them themselves. It is very common for p men especially to have 6-7- or more kids and not raise a one of them.


Hi folks

My daughter has just started to understand her father is a S.
She was getting very upset and confused by his behaviour and was asking why he didnt behave like her other friends dads towards their daughters (nurturing and caring). Yesterday she found lots of contacts on the computer she uses for her homework. he has made through sex contact sites, and his profiles of himself with very exaggerated descriptions about his physique and what he wanted to do to people, she also found a file with 2 photos of fully clothed women which have been scanned on from actual photos, she has got it in her head that he may be doing something very bad, I have tried to put her mind at rest but I am also clueless as to who these women are, obviously she is in a turmoil. She loves her dad but doesnt understand him. She broke down hysterically sobbing this evening and I dont know the best way to handle it, I have told her she is loved and hugged her, and explained a bit about his behaviour she is very bright and had already suspected all was not quite right, she actually sent me an e-mail about s and asked if this was what was wrong with her dad. Luckily she displays none of his tendencies and is a very kind and caring girl. I am afraid about her emotional well being, I have asked her if she would find it easier to talk to a counsellor but she said no. Her father is oblivious to the damage he is causing, or is aware and doesnt care anyway. Please could someone advise me how I can limit damge, especially anyone who has had experience with their own children. I know the obvious solution is to get away, but it only came to a head yesterday and I only realised then what a lie we were living. I am trying to plan getting away for him but it will take some time as I am very ill at the moment, recently out of hospital.

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

It seems like when the “fit hits the shan” it all comes at once doesn’t it, getting sick, finding out about his betrayals, trying to take care of your daughter and nurture her, trying to nurture youself! Whew! That’s a big load.

I am not a psychiatrist, but do have some experience but MY OPINION is that I would be up front and truthful with your daughter. I guess it is kind of like when we found out there wasn’t a Santa Claus, or an Easter Bunny. We didn’t want to believe it, but at the same time, we were old enough for the TRUTH.

My sons’ father was mentally ill, and his father, who was a P, managed to get guardianship of him in order to rip me off financially and he did a good job. My kids were small school age at the time and I just told them “you dad is sick, but it is his thinking that is sick. If he had an appendix burst and was sick you would still love him, but his thinking is “sick” and he can’t act like the dad that you knew.” They accepted that.

My X never again saw his sons, never sent a card after the first christmas, and sent his child support (what little there was) faithfully, but no contact ever again. He called me once, about 3 yrs after the divorce and was crying on the phone apologizing. I just listened for a while, and then tried to talk to him, and I don’t think he even heard me. I swear it sounded like an “oral suicide” note, then he just stopped in mid sentence and hung up. We have never heard a word from him again. He’s a very unhappy man who has tried to please his abusive P father his entire life and never managed to do it. I stood up to the old man and he set out to destroy our marriage and succeeded in destroying his son as well.

That’s been 30 yrs ago and the old man would be 95 now, so I presume he has passed on to what I presume is his “hot spot in hell, reserved for wicked and evil Ps.”

Your daughter will have to grieve that her father isn’t a “normal father”—I had a P father, who is sitting I am sure next to my late X-FIL, and I grieved also that I didn’t have a “father” that was able to love. But, I was fortunate that I had a great step father, so that helped.

I am just grateful that your S has not been able to alienate your daughter and also that she is NOT like him. It’s tough being a teenager today even under the best of circumstances.

I’d just play it by ear, let her educate herself and be supportive. Assure her that you will be there for her, and that the two of you are going to be OK, but I wouldn’t try to pull any wool over her eyes, I think the TRUTH is the best thing, but maybe Dr. Leedom or some of the others will chime in and give you some more advice too.


to Oxdrover, thanks for the advice, it is so tough at the moment but I am determined I wont become soft with him again, tonight I have already been thinking that I need to phone him at work as he is being very cold and its as if I need to make him like me again. I know its stupid and I wont give him the benefit of it, although I have these feeling and I dont know why I now have an understanding thanks to this website and its members so thanks everyone. I will make sure my daughter is ok, we are very close and she is very open with me about her feelings, so I know she isnt holding it in

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

Try not to let him know you are “plotting” to get away from him, but at the same time, be careful that he doesn’t “suck you back into the web”—I have been sucked back into the webs so many times it was like a revolving door.

Last summer during all the worst of the chaos in my life, I got tick fever and was extremely ill for several months before I even realized I was Ill, I just thought I felt like crap because I was stressed (and I am a medical professional). The stress does decrease our immune system though, so keep that in mind that it will help your health to decrease the stress in your life. I know change is always stressful, and it was for me, but at the same time, BE GOOD TO YOURSELF, I am sometimes a “driven” person to DO stuff, andit is difficult for me to sit still with a sink full of dirty dishes or something that I think “needs” to be done. I think the illness was “God’s way of telling me to SLOW DOWN” LOL I am learning however, to slow down and BE GOOD TO ME. To work when I feel like it and not feel guitly if I don’t feel like it. The world is not going to come to an end if I don’t do the dishes tonight.

But now that my health and strength have returned over the last year I am able to do more, but I no longer PUSH myself (well, not AS MUCH anyway) LOL Don’t want to be caught telling a lie on THIS blog! ha ha

There have been several of us who have had serious or semi seriouis health problems that I have no doubt are related to stress that we have been under for a long time. One gal found out she had breast cancer, but I think it has been successfuly treated. Many of us have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

But you know, Moraira, this is one of the most caring, and knowledgable and intelligent groups I have ever met, in RL or on the net. There is always someone here when the going gets tough!


Hi Oxdrover, I too am a health care professional, unfortunately I am now on long term sick leave and may not be allowed to go back to work in my current job because the stress affects me so much. I think the problem is I am stressed at work and then I come home to stress, so i am never rested. I have a hereditary blood disorder but when I was recently admitted to hospital they thought I had lupus or lymes symptoms, they did a barrage of tests but all negative, I am completely fatigued and I cant recover as I am having stress daily. He seems to be worse when I am unwell, he doesnt stop. I am sure you are right that stress reduces the immune system, and this has prompted me to try and make a move now as I am scared for my long term health. I wish I could be stronger, at the moment it feels like a bereavement, and I want the world to stop but I have to carry on and get back to work as I cant afford to stay off much longer as I earn the main salary.

I feel blessed that I found you all in this group and have already learned a lot, I had some second thoughts tonight and worried that I was overeacting to what has happened but underneath I know I’m not and that I just want things to be ok. I am glad your health has returned, it gives me some hope,


Dearest moraira43: The stress and pain is all part of the healing process. You are at the beginning of your journey for a better quality, more loving life. We all wish the best for you and your daughter and know how confusing and gut wrenching this part of the scenario causes in your life. You will get stronger every day as you begin this healing. Trust us, we all know what you and your daughter are living through right now and we are all hear for you. Who ever is on-line when you blog in, write, they will write back to you and help you, like we all helped each other. All our stories are our own, but they are all the same.

Peace to both your hearts and souls during this transition and pray for him so that he can find his way to his own healing process.

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

My husband was killed in a plane crash in July 04, and I was present on the ground and my son D was also in the plane and two friends, all three seriously burned, and my husband was burned over 95 % of his body, so I ended up with PTSD and had to retire, I just wasn’t able to keep it together enough to be SAFE at work. Yea, I know, stress at work and stress at home.

I am a basicly healthy person and since the plane crash I have had several SERIOUS infections, hospitalizations, etc etc. and the FATIGUE last summer so bad I couldn’t walk 10 feet without being SOB and heart racing over 100 BPM. I finally realized I was running fever daily and went to the doctor in September, and got treated but the fatigue lasted months and months afterwards. They tested everything but my hair follicles, but they said now I am as healthy as a horse, and except for the usual aches and paiins and grumbles for being 60, I can’t complain except I have no short term memory to speak of now (which had never been a problem before the crash)

I’m improved over all, mentally, emotionally and physically, over the past year or so after the worst of the stress decreased.


I also NC’d my enabling mother as well, and that was the final load off my back. I don’t think I would have ever recovered in any way if I had not gone NC with her as well. She lives just on the other side of the same farm I live on, but as far as I am concerned, she might as well live on the dark side of the moon.

IN the past 6 months or so I am finding peace, PEACE. My Goodness how wonderful it feels. I’m learning to set boundaries with people “close” to me which has always been a problem for me. That was as scary as learning to sky dive and was very difficult for me to do, setting those boundaries, but I’ve got my training wheels off and am peddling right along on that score so far now. There was just a lot of stuff to learn and practice.

Being KIND to myself was the biggest thing. I was so hard on myself, like a slave driver, constantly pushing myself to be better, do more, fix everyone, etc. beating myself up when I couldn’t be perfect. Well, I’m realizing that I don’t have to be perfect to love myself. I can make mistakes and I’m still okay.

From your posts you sound like you have pretty well made up your mind about getting away from him, and if that’s the case it will make it easier, but it will still be difficult. The more resolved you are though, the less back and forth, two and frow you will flop and that will help decrease the stress too.

PS–it is interesting to me that there are many health and mental health care professionals here that are former victims too.


Thankyou to wini and oxdrover for your kind comments they mean a lot to me

I think that health care professionals tend to be a caring bunch, maybe we are programmed to ‘save’ people and that carries on into our private life, personally I have no malice towards people and try to see the good. I suppose when I was younger and got into this relationship I thought everyone was like that I didnt consider that someone close would be deceitful, even now I want to believe that people aren’t bad. i suppose I am idealistic.

Oxdrover Its interesting that your symptoms were the same as mine, I had a heart rate of 130. and a low grade fever followed by chronic fatigue. I’m hopeful I will be well again.

You seem to have been through the ringer over the last few years and you seem a strong person. I find some of the stories on this blog very inspiring. I think this site is very therapeutic and it has helped me to see things more clearly. At the moment I feel that I am taking a lot from you all but not giving much back, in time I’m sure I will hopefully be able to help others in the same situation when I am in that peaceful place. It is strange for me to feel so nurtured as I am usually the care giver,


I totally “get” the bird analogy. I definitely agree that my exsociopath is a coo coo bird. He is totally coo coo!!! lol

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

Caregiving is nurturing, and that is healthy. However, somtimes we (caregivers) let the care giving turn into “enableing” where we take over and do for someone what they SHOULD do for themselves. Then, we began to resent them for not doing what they should, and they resent us for being “controlling.”

Unfortunately, that is what my “life story” was in that I enabled others. My mother is a “toxic” enabler, and was grooming me to take over the family “role” as “enabler in chief” when she died, but when I declined to assume that role all hell broke loose.

I started to try to set boundaries and that only made the situation worse because those for whom I had “enabled” insisted that I keep on doing for them what they should have been doing for themselves.

Any time I said “no” to any request from anyone I felt tremendous guilt. The thing about the P-experience is that it makes us take a GOOD long and hard look at ourselves.

Not that we are “blaming the victim” in this case, because the Ps have NO RIGHT TO ABUSE US, but at the same time, becasue we ALLOWED them to continue to do it, we need to change our behavior as well.

We gave them the power to hurt us, (by loving them) but we can TAKE BACK OUR POWER.

The FRUSTRATION I experienced in trying to continue to “fix” the situation, along with the stress of losing my husband, losing my beloved step father 6 months later (I had cared for him the last 18 months of his life with cancer), had a brief “fling” with a psychopath 8 months (for 8 months) after my husband died, and stress upon stress. By the time I finally realized my life was in danger from my P-son and fled my home I was a FLAMING NUT CASE.

What I am hearing in your posts is that you may be “weak” from illness, and tired of all the crap, but that you have got your head about you. That is a GOOD THING.

Don’t feel like you can’t take all the “nurturing” you need from this blog, you feel free to take all you need, because I guarentee that you will be back here helping others before you know it. That’s what is so wonderful about this site is people come here just like me “a flaming nut case” and before you know it, you have “got it all in one sock” and are back here helping others.There are lots of sites about Ps and lots of blogs, but to me, and I ‘ve seen a bunch of them, this is the best, the sanest, and there is less “junk” on here, and absolutely no flaming. The information presented here is good information and the articles are superb.

Learn as much as you can absorb, and there are several books that are excellent too. Dr. Robert Hare’s “Without Conscience” and “The Sociopath next door” and “Sharks in Suits” are some that are good. One that I absolutely got a great deal of emotional support and nurturing from is Dr. Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning.” He wrote this after being in a Nazi death camp for years. It is the emotional diary of how he coped and found meaning from the suffering in the camps. How he felt and thought, and the spiritual quest to find meaning in that suffering.

To me, “spiritual meaning” is important to healing–I am a Christian, but to me it doesn’t matter if you pray to the North Pole, as long as there is something spiritual in your views, something above just being “biologically a mammal.”

To me, the Ps are Ps because there is NOTHING SPIRITUAL in their make up, nothing outside of themselves, nothing bigger or more important than their immediate needs and desires.

There is a scrap of poetry I read when I was a kid that has stuck to my mind.

A mother starved for her brood,
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
Jesus upon the rod,
The millions who,
Humble and nameless,
The stoney hard pathway trod,
Some call it consecration,
Others call it God.


Hi Moraira I have been reading your post. When you logged into LoveFraud – that was the beginning of your healing. This site and the places it will take you are your salvation. I would like to recommend a book you should read asap “Meaning from Madness” by Richard Skerritt and he has other helpful books as well. You will have too order it online and they are very affordable. Please read that book. And some of the LF phrases and Qutes that have helped me and stuck with me are “This is a Life Lesson _ Don’t Fail it” and “The Truth Will Set You Free – But First it Will Piss You Off” and give your self time – time – you will get there…….one day at a time….

Ox Drover

Hi Henry,

You’re late tonight! Where ya been? We had great weather here today and I piddled around outside all day till my legs were TIRED. Got a lot done on just little odds and ends of projects. I’ve decided to name my “studio” the SOW’S EAR STUDIO, cause that was what that old trailer was when I started working on it, a sow’s ear! It’s still a ratty old trailer but I have it so cute and neat now (outside painted) new shed roof over it, and 3 rooms inside done and decorated, that it still isn’t a “silk purse” but it at least is a CUTE “sow’s ear” LOL

I think I missed my calling as an “interior decorator” —it is so much FUN to do things when you are not hurting! Not crying! and when there is no one to tell you how rotten and mean you are! It is amazing what a CHANGE OF ATTITUDE will do for how you see things.

BTW, I threatened to BOINK Kat with the skillet tonight if she doesn’t quit telling me how I am so much stronger than she is, ya da ya da! We’re all as strong as we THINK we are. Remember that little book we all used to read to our kids about “The Little Engine that Thoght he could?” and how he chugged up the mountain saying “I think I can, I think I can” and he DID it because he believed in himself.

We’ve all been told how we are not worthy, not good, etc. and now we need to THINK WE CAN and then WE CAN BECAUSE we think we can. We are as good as we think we are, and as strong as we think we are!


oxy design, interior and exterior have always been my passion, I should of followed my passion when I was young and I would of been the Nate Burkus of the 70’s – but being a decorater back then had that “gay’ stigma attached too it, so instead I worked in the oil patch and got married and had children “That was the best time of my life” being married – kid’s, funny how life play’s out. I need to figure out what it is that I want, before it will ever find me. I seem to be wanting something – but not sure if I can put a finger on it. The weather has been absolute perfect for me. i have been so busy with work. I hope to stay home the next 2 days ajust work on my stuff…so don’t call me to come help you… I need to paint my house -yuck…….yes Kat kinda remind’s me of me kinda hard on herself but she is on the right path and some day she will arrive. I bet she would be a ton of fun at our get together…she has made me smile and giggle many time’s – she still has her spirit…..


Dear Moraira,
I am sorry for the situation of you and your daughter, but I think you can also see this as a chance for her. She is a teenager, I presume, and she just starts to get to know the other half of mankind. If she can draw the right conclusions she will have THIS very important lesson at an age that helps her just in time to develop healthy reationships later in life. She will be able to see the red flags and she wont be so easily sucked into abuse by whoever. My father is a P and my mother is a S and I have learned just now at the age of 46 what they are and how to deal with it recovering from a relationship with a textbook-P (it had to be VERY obvious to get me the clue finally. It was my sister who made me look up “Psychopath” in Google in April 08). I have learned from infant on that I can be treated like s… and be glad and thankful for it because they all said it is manure. I was always very anxious with anybody and in the fog, setting no boundaries, and of course I am in the health care profession too ;-). I always wanted to have a family and children but I was too anxious to go for it because I had a very diffuse fear and certainly I did not want to have a relationship as my parents had. My father was also a big womanizer flirting in restaurants with women on the next table when he was out with the family, and it was all normal (no computers then). I was always very ashamed and felt it was “not right”. My mother did nothing but shouting at home, it had to be “in the family”. I had no clue at all what the reason behind could be. Now it is too late as my biological clock has stopped. I have very nice nieces and I am a godmother instead, and I am very happy with this situation right now. I had a phase of grief over this though some year ago.

I was on a long holiday the last three weeks and I read a very revealing book (unfortunately it is in German and has not been translated). It is from Fritz Riemann, “Basics of fear”. There are four basic fears in life, fear from being alone, fear from being too close, fear from change and fear from “always the same”. The former and the latter two are the opposite of each other, and on this continuum one has to find the balance in every situation. The P are the ones with the fear of being too close and therefore they push away the ones from the opposite. Unfortunately the opposites attract each other, because the lack of the quality of the opposite is felt instinctively. No boundaries meets strict boundaries, so it was with me and my Ex-P. And he was controlling, i.e. fear from change, whereas I was brought up by a very chaotic Italian mother but socialized by a very strict medical hierarchy so I presume I am “in the middle” of this scale. The book gave me much food for thought and helped me sort out where I am right now. I also learned that it is a lifelong continuing thing and that you have to define your position on this scales constantly. There is no “getting over with it”. The aim is to become a caring person that does not neglect the needs of her own, who is open for changement but keeps the good things of the past. Uff! But then: just do it. I wish you and your daughter all the best, my heart is with you. Libelle

Ox Drover

Well, Henry, I’m still trying to figure out what I want to be when I “grow up”—got the “play house” 3/5 ths done inside, and done outside, so will take a break from the remodeling and do some artistic stuff pretty soon. It’s been so long since I’ve had a canvas out or done anything like that, since before my husband’s death.

I’ve been living back in the house now for about a week, and it is starting to seem like a “dream” about having been gone and not actually living in my house for 16 months. Even the dog and the parrot are adjusting to being here now. I went back to the RV today to clean and get the rest of the odds and ends of my stuff out and it didn’t seem like “home” there any more.

I’ve been looking around at my house, almost like I am seeing it for the first time or something, and it feels warm and comforting again, not scary at all. Of course this perfect weather when I can be outside is just wonderful too. I am “solar powered” I think and my spirits rise with getting outside in the sunshine.

Speaking of outside, wonder where Bev is? Wonder if she went back to Scotland? That would be so neat to be able to go to Scotland. I had planned a trip over seas this year and to come back through Scotland (I’ve never been there but always wanted to go) but with all the rising prices etc. I guess I can only go in my imagination now unless I win the lotto, and since we don’t have a lotto in my state, it isn’t likely I will “win”–LOL

Aloha hasn’t chimed in lately, and several others too.

Yep, Kat’s on the right track, just needed a little loving skillet therapy! Look what it did for you! LOL Speaking of that, I made a big pan of cornbread last night and a big pot of stew! Had left overs for supper tonight and was better than last night! ALL GONE! Well, I’m up too late, so I think I will turn in, and sleep late in the morning, then take the day off from work and just chill! Goo’nite


to Libelle i found your comment really interesting, from reading other blogs i have noticed how many people writing on here have had ‘disfunctional’ families when. they are growing up. So probably our boundaries for accepting unreasonable behaviour is different to other peoples. I have always thougth that my mother had some sort of mental health issues but never diagnosed. She wasnt very nurturing even when I was very young she didnt seem to have the same instincts as other mothers to protect their children, (I only realised this after I became a mother myself) One example is at the age of about 4 or 5 we went on holiday, I can remember that she had asked me to pack my own clothes. I only packed one pair of pants as they were my new ones, of course she didnt notice, on the holiday she took us for a really long walk in the countryside, I ended up messing myself, I didnt tell her, I cleaned myself up best I could and continued to wear the soiled pants for the rest of the week, obviously I was smelly and people including my mother were commenting on a smell but no one checked me, by the end of the week I had a severe case of diaper rash, but didnt feel able to tell anyone I was acutely embarassed. Looking back on it I cant believe the lack of care from my mother. She also had a string of affairs while married to my father and one of them was with someone who was sent to prison, she asked me aged about 8 to hide the letters for him in her fur coat lining, I felt very guilty about this but unable to tell my father as she said he made her life a misery. She was very dishonest with money and would scim money from my father business, she had it hidden under the carpets. She is also very dramatic, everything is drama to her, she likes to play the victim to the extent that she makes up stories and exaggerates events to get pity. My relationship with my mothers mother is damaged because my mother has told tales on me and is believed. When I was 11 she finally left my father for one of her conquests taking me and my younger sister, he subsequently had an affair and she threw him out of the house she had bought with my fathers money. She faked suicide a couple of times, set up so we would find her when we got home from school, she was also taking prescription drugs for a number of years. She soon found another man and promptly left town to set up home with him, leaving me behind, he didnt know what had happened it was so quick, he was very wealthy, she is still with him today although she tells everyone he treats her badly. I have overheard her telling her mother on the telephone that he has hit her and threatened to throw her out when that was totally untrue and it was her having one of her tantrums. On the surface though our relationship is now close, I realise that she cant be different and doesnt understand any other way, she thinks she was a good mother because she kept a clean house and cooked. My father was a traditional hardworking man who wouldnt get credit for anything, everything was saved up for, even our house. He always had his own businesses and never took a holiday, he was the one who would get up with us in the morning and cook our breakfast before seeing us off to school, my mother was always in bed with some illness. He did suffer from a lot of anxiety and was continually stressed, there was a lot of shouting, but that is not surprisisng as my mother flaunted her affairs. I am thankful for the care that my father provided, he made me feel loved, I dont know how things would have turned out without him, he was a good man with a kind heart. Unfortunately he died 3 years ago. He never married again or had a partner after my mother left him, he was probably put off for life she hurt him so much. So I suppose you could says I am from a dysfunctional family, my older sisters dont seem to have been affected to the same extent I was, but they were older when her behaviour became really bad. There I’ve said it I have never let anyone know my feeling about my childhood, I once tried to discuss it with my sister but she said we shouldnt live in the past.


by the way everyone I’m not up all night blogging I am in a different time zone to most of you, about 5 hrs ahead in the UK. Thanks for all making me feel welcome


This is my first time “commenting” and I’m new to this site but I’m very greatful it is here. I have been dealing with a sociopath for over 15 years and we have 2 children 10 (girl) and 15 (boy). My son was diagnoised at 5 with ADHD a low IQ and has learning disabilities (he has been in special ed since 1st grade). After learning about ADHD I got to reading alot about neurological disorders and will never forget reading Anti Personality Disorder and saw my husband (every last word and more). I had gotten an Order of Protection and my real hell started after that and has not stopped. He immediatly filed for divorced and accused me of everything trying to take our children away from me…I had CPS at my door at least 3 times (due to those reports the agent had to go to the school and interview the children)… he accused me of hitting them (brought pictures to court … bruised knees etc.. (the children are now remembering him telling them he wanted to take pictures of their cuts etc.) We were ordered to go for Psychological testing (children involved)…he would call the Law Guardian on a weekly basis excusing me of things and he would have to come over and speak to the children…I never lost custody of the children but used all my money to fight every accusation for years. I have tried so hard to protect the children and never were able to. It did not matter from guns in the home (confinscated), violent past record, (charged with a Felony 1 – original charge was Attempted Murder) Recieving an O.P to which he violated and plead guilty. He was investigated for raping our neighbor who he had gotten pregnant and took her for an abortion (long story) but she was only 15. At about 22 she told me what had happened and I took her to my Domestic Violence Counselor and he was then under investigation. During that investigation I had gotten an order that he could have no contact with the children at all. The Police had my 4 year old daughter examined (due to some things she was displaying) When the evidence was presented to the DA she felt too many years had gone by and would not be able to get a conviction so decided not to take the case. CPS investigated my daughter and found nothing. My divorce papers read I could move 50 miles so I moved 47 radius miles away (aprox 1hr 1/2 away)1 Week later I was in Court (the day the children were suppose to start in their new school). I was ordered to put the children back in their old schoo that day until trail (2 months away). I lived in my girlfriend’s empty house she was selling with blow up beds. 1 month later it was sold and had to live in hotels for another month. I was having a nervous break down. 2 Days before trial in a Conference my lawyer tells me the Judge said he remembers my Divorce was suppose to say 50 driving miles. He was going to mandate me back to Long Island. I lost it. My lawyer, my friends (I have no family) telling me I should give him the children it is not what he wants (especially since he was and had been with a very wealthy woman who has her own child and they were getting married) and he would give them back. On December 13th I gave him our children the worst day of my life…I went through Post Tramatic Stress Syndrom. Sorry I really wanted to express what my Son is and has been going through. How this Sociopathic Sperm Donor is effecting him. At 15 he is noticing things, questioning things, and getting how his Father is. At 13 he had gone through Panic Disorder now at 15 anger, depression…but I have finally gotten him to open up to me and tell constantly tell him it is not you!!!! Reassure him I love him and there is nothing he can not tell me that I would not believe. He wants to come back to live with me and that is now my new fight…and I’m not sure how I’m going to approach it this time. Thanks for listening. I have not been able to unleash like this in all these year. This will not be the last you hear from me … I have lots of stories to tell (too many really).


“to Libelle i found your comment really interesting, from reading other blogs i have noticed how many people writing on here have had ’disfunctional’ families when. they are growing up.”

And moraira43 you would be right. You will find this as I did a common theme among us all. Most is if all of us came from dysfunctional families. I have notice this played out over and over again. I have seen this so often that I really can’t believe it is only a coincidence..

“But, even though children of narcissists don’t automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent — “You can’t get blood out of a stone,” but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we’ve been trained to keep loving people who can’t love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way.”


Welcome dolphin22!


dolphin 22,
just remember you are not alone, I am also new to this blog, only realising a few days ago what my husband is. We have a 14 yr old going through the hell of seeing her father in the real light. He is not at all remorseful about anything he has put us through. violence, infidelity, lying, debt, fraud etc, the list goes on. I read a really good article on Dr Steves section about how creative writing about traumatic events can help, You should read it, it may help your son to do this, Dr Steve does recommend that you get professional advice first though. But I can say that after just a few days of blogging on this site I have had so much support from people who have been in my situation it has really helped me to start to move on emotionally, i have recognised the red flags that show me what my husband is. It sounds like you have been through a lot and your story is like many you will read on this site, take time to read through them it is therapeutic. It is really important for your son to know you love him and believe him that will limit some of the damage caused. Good luck to you and keep in touch


to james

I never thought of it like that, I think your right I am always trying to please people and sort out their problems. I tend to give a lot as that is how I’m programmed i suppose. My mother is still at her happiest if I buy her something designer and this makes me feel good. I never receive any presents from her though, only something cheap that she may have picked up in the market if your lucky or one of her old necklaces. She cant seem to see the inconsistency in the way she treats us and the way she expects to be treated. she is also like this with her grandchildren and like us they have learned not believe grandma when she says she is getting them this or that for christmas it never materialises, but she always has money for designer things for herself which she enjoys showing off to us all.


Our first social structure is our family. It’s there we learn how to behave, and where our place in society is. Dysfunction and codependency are passed on not by genetics, but by the indoctrination we receive from people in our family every day. We have normal desires and urges inside us, but they are stifled and retrained by the unhealthy behaviors of our families. Few grow up unscathed if this happens, because social training isn’t inborn, it has to be learned when we are little.


I think its true when i met my S’s mother the red flags were all there. She told compulsive lies, told everyone who would listen that she was having an affair with a farmer up the road, this wasnt true but the gossip was very damaging for the farmer and his poor wife, she persisted in this lie until she died. Her husband was vey thin and weak (they were in their 70’s when I first met them) she would give him minimum food, sometimes mouldy and seemed to enjoy his suffering, she said he deserved it after how he had treated her over the years, she set up a rumour that he had sexually abused their daughter to turn the family against him.

No money was spent on the house, just on cigarettes, alcohol and bingo. She was always in debt and borrowing money from credit agencies and the family. When I had only been dating S for a month the mother got a bus to my fathers business in the next town and asked to borrow money from him when he declined my sister gave it to her to get rid of her, i still dont know how she knew where is business was.

S says that his mother killed his rabbit by leaving it in the snow to freeze and he witnessed her drowning kittens. He used to tell me that he had to sit behind the couch to play when he was a child and would be beaten if he made a noise, I dont know how much of this is true or if he was trying to get pity. He wet the bed until he was in his 30’s. By the way S’s sister is an international con woman she also used another brothers house as a mailing address and has aliases, she told lots of stories about her ex husband to try and discredit him. Other brother is alcoholic. How I feel about S is not all cut and dried, because I know what he went through with his mother I relate to that and this is a problem to me because I still feel sorry for him.


James said “because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not.”

Not all of us. In fact that is one of the things that is a pet peeve of mine to this day. That people expected (and pressured) me to “love” my mother, to grant her some special status because she gave birth to me, etc. As I said on my blog “Being a biological donor/giving birth to someone does not a mother make and it deserves no special respect unless that respect is earned. Period.”

What was sad to me was that even some professionals would reinforce this idea and add to the pressure. The whole idealization of motherhood is a very strong tool in the psychopaths tool box when she is a mother.



I agree that it is not compulsory to love, but I do think that consciousy or unconsciously we all seek the approval of our parents especially if that parent is very manipulative as a P, S or N parent is. We learn everything from them if we grow up with them, different if you live apart from them I suppose.

moraira43: I truly believe sociopathy is hereditary. My ex-S’s father was also a sociopath. A carbon copy.


my S has just tried to steal money from our 14 year old daughter, when she said no he became very aggressive and told her she is brainwashed by me. He said from this day they are through and that is because she is a sociopath.

She was getting money out at the cash point, he told her to go in the store to get her things and he would get the cash out, she refused and he took half the money off her anyway. It wasnt a lot as she doesnt have much but that isnt the point how low can you go.

He has since phoned me to put his side and says he was only holding on to it for safe keeping, a likely story when he cleared my bank account last month, now I am keeping an eye on it she is his next option.

Ox Drover

BloggerT, I totally agree with you, and am NC with my mother and was NC with my biological father for the 40+ years before his death.

I have had people tell me “you can’t just not see your MOTHER”—yes I CAN just NOT SEE my mother. My mother is TOXIC. It is ONLY since I quit contact with her that I have been able to heal.

Some religious leaders say “Honor they mother and father” and that means (according to them) accepting their abuse. NO, I “honor” my parents (both of who are/were TOXIC) by becoming the kind of person who WOULD BRING HONOR TO A PARENT. I Honor them by being a good and honorable person.

The Bible tells children to “obey your parents in the Lord” It does not say OBEY your parents NO MATTER WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO.

My mother is manipulative, she is a toxic enabler, she is a liar, and she has no remorse for the horrible pain and devaluation and discarding she did to me, but now that the rest of her Ps have been arrested, she wants to “let’s just pretend none of this ever happened” and me to go back to being at her beck and call. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

I am working on getting the bitterness out of my heart toward her for what she did to me, but that doens’t mean I will ever trust her or want to have a “relationship’ with her. I no longer accept her definition of “forgiveness” (meaning I will pretend she hever hurt me, never lied, etc) I will no longer trust her, and the last time I spoke to her I told her that. She was shocked and asked me “Why would you never trust me?” I said “Because you are a liar” She looked shocked again and started to ask me what lie she ever told me. So I told her the lie, and she again was going to deny it, and so I asked her, “would you like to call my son C and ask him if you lied or not?” So her response to that was “You mean YOU never lied to me?” I answered her, “Yes, I did lie to you, when I was 15, and that was 46 years ago.”

Those were the last words she and I spoke, the last words we will speak.


It sounds like you mother was either a narcissist or a psychopath herself, and being the child of a psychopath and a dysfunctional enabler myself, I can tell you, it makes life difficult for us because we are “trained” to accept bad behavior as either our fault, or as “normal.”

Your story about going on holiday with one pair of pants, and your mother ignoring your smell, and your embarassment etc. is truly heart breaking. That is abuse by neglect if ever I heard it. I am glad that your father was a caring man, though, and mitigated somewhat your mother’s neglect.

My step father was a wonderful man and somewhat kept my mother in check so I did have some nurturing, but not from her. I also had a great deal of nurturing from my grandparents and was the only grandchild for 10 yrs so was the “bell sheep” there.

I think the age at which we suffer neglect or abuse (our place in the line of sibs) has an effect on us too. I was an only child and only children have a different response than say the middle or the youngest child. ONly children are more like the older child in a set of sibs I think. Each place though, has it’s own cross to bear.

The thing that we have to do now, is to move on from not only the parental abuse or neglect, which left us vulnerable to the Ps, but to heal from it all. I have found as I have healed from the Ps, the “old issues” of childhood things rise to the surface, and until they do and until you resolve them, you can’t fully heal from the Ps.

Not that we can “blame” our parents for everything bad that happened to us, it still had an effect on the way we functioned. Now we can RE-parent OURSELVES and make good decisions for ourselves, and no longer try to please the unpleaseable parent. WE can measure ourselves by OUR own yard stick or ruler, rather than by theirs or the P’s.


Our backgrounds do all seem remarkably similar, it cant be a coincidence. I have come to a place with my mother where it is just better to leave things, she only has memories of being a good mother, a counsellor once said to me that I was letting her off and carrying the burden but it is just easier that way. She still can be totally out of order though, she had one of her tantrums when we were staying at her house on holiday, I wasnt going to put up with the abuse so left and got an apartment for the rest of the stay. She blamed me to the rest of the family and made up a lot of stories, she hates S and said he was the cause of the confrontation to everyone but he hadnt been there when it started. She shouted horrible abuse in front of my daughter, it brought back forgotten memories, she wanted S dead and it would happen within a year etc.
After a few days I felt guilty so I contacted her and agreed that she could see her grandaughter for the afternoon before we left. I thought stupidly that they would make the most of it by swimming in the pool etc. I had forgotten how low she can be, what happended was that she took my daughter into the bedroom where she had laid out all my childhood photographs, she started reminiscing about how wonderful it had been and it would never be the same again because of S. She proceeded to weep and was comforted by my daughter, she told my daughter that it was probably the last time she would ever be able to see her because I wouldnt allow her to go again, it brought back memories to me of being the confidant for all her affairs. I was the one she chose to tell everything to, my sisters were unaware. When I picked my daughter up she was traumatised and wouldnt speak to me as she believed i was stopping her ever seeing her grandma again. I was furious but still not able to confront my mother, I have still not spoken to her about it or anything that happened in my childhood. I thought I had moved on but writing this I realise that it is still there, i need to protect my daughter

Ox Drover

Dear Moraira,

Yes, when we start to heal and disengage from the Ps it brings out lots of things from our childhoods and other times that we have “glossed over” and “forgotten”—I guess in order to “keep the relationship intact”—but WHY keep a relationship like that “intact?” DUH! It never crossed my mind that I had ANY options except to make the best I could of the relationship as it was—abusive—I know my mother at 79, almost 80, is NOT going to change, but I do NOT HAVE TO PLAY HER GAMES. Playing her games is PAINFUL TO ME. I refuse to play any more, so the ONLY option open to me is to disengage from the relationship completely. My mother devalued me completely and discarded me in favor of my P-DIL and the Trojan Horse P and my P son. She “traded me” if you will for three Ps, and shortly thereafter the three discarded and abused her–SUPRISE!!!!! Yet, she still “blames” me for what THEY did, even though on my knees crying hysterically I BEGGED her to protect herself from them. She looked at me like I was a pile of cat crap and sneered at me. I cannot PRETEND any longer that she has the least concern for me or my welfare, or the least remorse for devaluing and discarding me—until she lost her “subservient Ps” then she needed/wanted me back because now she has NO ONE. She has devalued and discarded my adopted son D because “he isn’t blood” and her only blood grandson,, my son C feels about her like I do. He keeps limited contact, but he does NOT TRUST HER EITHER.

I know that she thinks that we will “punish” her for a while with NC but she feels that if she just hangs on long enough that we will come to heel and “forgive her”—it isn’t about forgiveness (getting teh bitterness out of my heart–I’m working on that) but it is about TRUST and LOVE, and you cannot truly love someone you can’t trust. Realizing that she does NOT, cannot, love me, and that she would and could lie to me, devalue me, and discard me. I put up with the devaluing for years and when she discarded me in favor of the Ps, that was THE END.

Your mother making you the “confidant” for her affairs is ABUSE, Moraira, of the worst emotional sort. Your sisters being spared that probably makes them more tolearant of mommie dearest, but I can see how it would set you up for being abused yourself by your S/P H.

My psychiatrist, who is also a former work mate, and friend, has an N mother, so she “gets it” about the Ns and the Ps. That has helped a great deal.

I feel in some ways like I am going through adolsescence at age 61! I think I might actually be doing some of the “work” I should have done separating from my mother and family of Origin (FOO) back then that I didn’t do. But that is okay, as “better late than never.” LOL

Hi Ox and Moraira, There has to be some connection with genetics. I also agree with you Ox that a environment may play a part.

Ox: My ex S is one of those guys with 7 children from 5 different women. He was not a presence in the lives of any of the children except for the last 2. And even 1 of those he only sees a few times a year. He grew up not knowing his father because his dad also was a S. His dad has 8 kids out there from perhaps 5 or 6 or 7 different women. My ex grew up in the worse neighborhoods you could imagine…the hood in Puerto Rico, Camden, NJ, and wound up in Jersey City until the mom of the last 2 kids kicked him out 6 years ago.

When he was only 15 years old, a gang member picked on him. His uncle drove him to the street where the gang was. He demanded he get out of the car and beat the S** out of the kid. He didn’t want to go but his Uncle pushed him..and pushed him. He swung, and swung. He described how he felt the adrenaline, fury he never felt before. He went crazy on the kid. The kid got beat. Then the next gang member stepped up. He fought him too, and the next. I believe it was at that point in his life, he became an angry f’d up person. His mom couldn’t control him. He left home when he was around 16 and had his first kid around that time. Thus the pattern begins.

I wonder. If my ex-S had a REAL MAN for a role model, would he have taken the wrong path in life? I know my ex-S would NEVER make his son beat up someone. He does not want his 12 year old son to be like him…although I do see is son manipulating and lying already. AND the son has seen how the dad jumps from woman to woman’s house to live for free. AND sees how the dad abuses women. One time the ex and I were fighting and my ex spit in my face. I looked at the boy and said, “dont EVER grow up to be like your father.” DONT EVER spit in a woman’s face. When his dad would lie to me I would say to the boy, “do you think it’s nice that your father lies to me?” “He replied, “no.” One time the boy was in tears because the dad was on the phone verbally assaulting his mother. I stopped that one too. I looked at the crying little boy and told him try not to get upset. Your dad is just not right. I turned right around to the S and said, “That’s his mother! No matter WHAT you think of her, she is still his mother. And he loves his mother! Never do that again!” I hope and pray this kid makes it.

One thing positive though, my ex is taking the boy to church on Sundays and brought him his own bible. Also, he’s back on track with school. He failed the 4th grade 2 times so we took him in my home last school year and he finished with A’s & B’s. He may skip ahead a school year if he does that good again this year. When he was living at the mom’s, he maniuplated and lied to her constantly. He wouldn’t go to school faking he was sick. He wouldn’t do his homework because he kept telling her he didn’t have any. He tried to pull that crap on us the first few months and then realized he was not getting away with it. We also helped him with his homework and gave rewards for doing good. I also gave him an allowance for chores. Do you think there is hope for him?


I have always being told that I need to leave things alone by my sisters, everything is brushed under the carpet. they dont want to discuss it, happier just to go along with her and keep her happy with presents and praise. I sometimes think they dont have any understanding and dont think about things as deeply as I do, maybe thats my downfall, I dont know why I was chosen as the confidant, i was the 3rd child, i suppose I was young enough to mould when the affairs started. i was quiet and less confident. I suppose the perfect victim. Its weird that I dont feel malice towards her but I yearn for real affection. Apparently I was what she called very clingy, she used to laugh about it with her friends, she told me recently when I was on stage doing irish dancing when i was about 10 years old she was laughing her head off at my bony legs. I remember the performance and I had been so proud that my mum had attended because she would normally says she was too busy. It cut me to the quick even as an adult that it was a joke to her and I grieved for the child.

Ox Drover

Oops, I think my post went off into cyberspace.


We have learned that facing truth hurts, and your sisters have chosen to “pretend” things are okay in order to keep from facing a painful truth. “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.” That is a qyote from an article on here and is SO TRUE.

Not facing truth is not as acutely painful as facing unhappy truths, but it is a CHRONIC pain that never goes away to pretend that all is well when it isn’t. Facing the truth is acute pain, and I have faced some very acutely painful truths in the past year or two. But for the first time the chronic pain level is GONE, and the acute pain is subsiding, so all in all, I am better off now than I have been in my entire life as far as the level of pain is concerned.

I realize that I do NOT have to have these painful relationships in my life. I HAVE A CHOICE and I choose to NOT associate with people who do not love me—no matter who they are. I will not let others guilt me into it either.

The old “if you love me you will let mom abuse you, because it will make me unhappy if you don’t let mom abuse you”

My mom used that to get me to have Christmas and other holdiays with her brother “Uncle Monster”—for years, to the point that I would go out of state to have the holidays with friends instead of stay home. To this day I don’tlike Christmas because of that crap she used on me. “Have holidays with uncle monster or I will cry and you will feel guilty.” CRAPPOLA I do not fall for that black mail any more.

I can understand you grieving for the child you were, because you were not nurtured as you should have been and even the things you thought she did to nurture and please you were FAKE. Just because your sisters can’t or won’t face the truth doesn’t mean that your truth is not valid. Accepting MY truth as valid was another thing I had problems with.

If I don’t validate myself, who will? I have to be able to validate my own truth. My own perception. It may not be the same as yours but that doesn’t make it less valid.

I’m glad you came here Moraira, and glad that you are working through these things. I promise you that in the end you will be SO GLAD that you have faced the truth, even painful truths, and that you and your daughter can get through this thing and get the Ps out of your life and your souls.

I may be 60 and most of my life is over, but the rest of it, whether it is 1 day or 40 more years will be lived in internal PEACE and happiness and no more Ps in my life.

Ox Drover

Dear Iwonder,

The boy has a dysfunctional role model, and a chaotic life style, so it is an up hill climb for him to turn out to be anything except like his father. There is always a chance, but he has the “double whammy” –bad genes and a chaotic lifestyle so there’s no way to predict what will happen to him. Even if he didn’t get the genes, he has the lifestyle and role model of a P.

It is a shame that is what happens to the children of these people and why so long people thought it was ALL environmental until some real research started to be done on genetics. I have always thought genetics played a big part in it, but environmental has some impact as well.

I know I must have the P-genes, or at least some of them, or I coldn’t have passed them on to my P-son, but how the are expressed in me (if they are) I don’t know because no one can truly know what it is like inside someone else’s head.

Not everyone perceives an event the same, or reacts to the same event the same way emotionally. We try to convey to others how we feel and think, but language is a poor conductor of emotions, just like wood is a poor conductor of electricity. There is proof now that genes play a big part in our over all personalities, and in our status and desire for control or submission. So those genes do play a lot in our lives and the decisions and actons we make. They make some impact on how we “turn out.”

I know you can take an animal that is born to be alpha and kick it enough times that you can make it subservient, and I know that you can encourage an animal that is born submissive and make it somewhat more aggressive, and you can semi-tame some wild animals, but genes do play a big role. That is why some breeds of dogs are aggressive and some not, though there IS some variation in individuals within the group, but as a group the Spanish fighting bulls are much more aggressive than other breeds of cattle, for example.

I culled my herd of cattle for aggression and any aggressive animal was sent to slaughter. Period. My herd of cattle was exceptionally gentle. I started with a gentle breed and over the years culled out any animal that was aggressive or showed excessive fright of humans. One cow I had, one of the first cows I bought, was fine herself, but ALL of her ten calves except the last one were KICKERS. They would nail you good, I never kept any of these calves. I do still have her last calf which is NOT a kicker, as one of the three “pet cows” that I kept just for family meat and because I like to look at them and pet them.

I hope and pray for the boy’s sake that he can overcome both his genetic predisposition and his terrible environment, but it will be an uphill battle for the boy.


Ox drover
60 is the new 30 so enjoy your life

The 12 year old boy is already an uncle. His 14 year old sister had a baby. And the father of that child is married with another child. We initially wanted the 14 year old to live with us last year because she was hanging around the wrong crowd and being premiscuous. We found out right before the school year she was pregnant. There went that plan. We took the 12 year old instead. What a mess.


Dear I wonder

I read your blog and is does sound like you are having a difficult time, he is lucky to have someone who cares about him. It is always difficult bringing up children even if the home life is stable, you never know how they will turn out. My sister has 2 sons, one of them is a straight A student who enjoys fishing and the other one likes to lead a wild lifestyle and has caused a lot of heartache for his parents.

I would say there is always hope, without it we might as well give up.

Hi Moraira: Well, I’m not with the S or the boy anymore. This past May I found out the S was leading a double life with another woman. I kicked him out…the OW took them in. He’s over the OW’s house for this school year. The sick S was taking the boy to the OW’s house 2 nights a week telling me he stays at his “boys” house a couple nights a week for somewhere to go when we fight. They both would lie to me as to where they’d been, etc. I have no idea what it’s like over the OW’s house this year but I’m sure the kid is all screwed up now.


I wonder
thats terrible but it doesnt surprise me, he is definitely screwing the boy up, my own mother made me her confidante for her affairs with a string of men behind my fathers back and it certainly affected me. At least you are free now but obviously not unscathed by it all.



“because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not.”

Exactly I didn’t say it but Joanna M. Ashmun did. Anyway, I do believe this it be true in part. That some of us do try to get others to fulfill that which might have been lost in our childhood.

As for me Blogger, I too had a Narcissistic mother. She was (now deceased) the most evil person one could every meet on this planet. The day she died I had joy in my heart. But now concerning my father who was very dysfunctional due mostly to the fact that he was a alcoholic and the worst role model any child could be unlucky enough to have as a father. Still I knew that he loved his children and I too loved him dearly in sprite of all the BS he gave me. My father had a very hard time showing love and receiving it. I believe this is why I became a enabler and might explain my involvement with my ex S/P..



One other thing I would like to add is that because I became a “ward of the state” at a very early age. I had minimum contact with my alcoholic parent and no contact whatsoever with my NPD mother. Hate to say it but I still feel very lucky having a chance to see how other peoples life’s were and how much they (Good Role models) taught me insomuch that I always have a choice. That the cycle of abuse can be stopped…

Hi BloggerT7165: God was with you. God is with the other 5 children my x-S abandoned because all of their moms found real men and role models for those children. They all grew up better than had they stayed with my x-S in their lives.

Lord Have Mercy. There is a story on the CNN website under crime where an 18 year old boy is being charged with the attempted murder of his mother to get money for his girlfriend to have breast implants. The mom was attacked with a baseball bat while she slept..but escaped.

Could you imagine the terror, the grief, of having your own child trying to kill you? Over what???

I’m telling you. Sometimes I do believe the devil has possession of a person’s soul.

Ox Drover

Dear Iwonder,

Yes, I can imagine the terror, the grief, of my own child trying to kill me over money–but he wanted more than getting breast implants for his GF, he wanted to have all the family assets and cut out me, his grandmother and his brothers. He wanted it all.

And yes, I think some people embrace evil with all their hearts just like others try to embrace goodness.

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