I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.
— Frederic Nietzsche
In recovering from a sociopathic relationship, one of our greatest challenges is to rediscover the meaning of trust. Trust is a kind of glue in our lives. If we are going to be vibrant human beings, living with healthy curiosity and developing ourselves through calculated risks and learning from our experiences, we have to be able to depend on some background truths. When our lives are rocked by unexpected disaster, the impact on our ability to trust our perceptions or our world around us can be massive.
This issue comes up over and over on LoveFraud. We hear it most clearly from the people in early recovery. But it’s an issue at every stage of healing, including the process of forgiving discussed in the last article.
This article will look at some issues around trust, and offer some thoughts about why a relationship with a sociopath illuminates this issue, and what we can do to recover.
Catching the sociopath’s disease
As readers of my writing know, I have my own perspective of the psychology of sociopaths. It sometimes overlaps current theories, but is based more on what I have observed and lived through. I believe that the core issue in the sociopathic dysfunction is a virtually total blockage of interpersonal trust.
I settled on this, because it can explain other symptoms they exhibit. It also matches the personal stories of everyone I’ve known who arguably could be diagnosed as a sociopath, a psychopath, a malignant narcissist or a decompensating borderline. Their personal stories tend to be about the social isolation caused by their differences in temperament or circumstances, or about massive breakdown in their safety or nurture, especially as infants or toddlers. I believe they skew toward the independent, rather than dependent side of the disorder spectrum because of the developmental timing of these crises, as well as lack of support and validation at a crucial time.
Be that as it may, they not only gave up trusting, but blocked off need for it as dangerous to their physical and psychological survival. And they became chronic, eternal loners, living by their wits on the “mean streets,” and viewing any part of the world based on trust-related structures with envy, bitterness and disdain. Their highest sense of the outcome of relationships is winning, because it supports their survival needs and because getting what they want is the only type of interpersonal exchange they can regard as both safe and pleasurable.
With only transient and shallow human connections, they live with emotional starvation, grasping after anything that makes them feel “real” or rewarded. Except for expediency, they have no stake in the world of mutual agreements, like laws or social contracts, and no motivation to behave altruistically. As eternal outsiders, they assume that anything they own or build is vulnerable. So, they are highly concerned with neutralizing threats and building invulnerability (wealth, social acceptance, etc.). But jumping ship, when necessary, is relatively easy, because their need to feel like they are winning or in control is more essential to their internal stability than their attachment to any person or thing.
All of this is important in the context of contagion. Feelings and feelings-connected ideas are contagious. We know this from mob psychology. Peer pressure. The way the character of an authority figure, like a CEO, can shape an entire organization. Many of us have gotten involved in “project” relationships where we feel like we have the resources to help someone out of depression, addiction or some kind of life failure, and discovered they’ve dragged us down as much as we’ve dragged them up. And of course, we are influenced by emotional vocabularies of our families of origin, as well as our intimate relationships, because we strongly desire to stay bonded.
Relationships with sociopaths put a special spin on the issue of contagion. The sociopath urgently wants to influence us. On our side, we are typically comfortable with sacrificing some personal independence for a positive and intense connection. (All relationships involve some compromise, but people who evade or escape early from sociopathic relationships may more resistant to early concessions.) So we have one partner, the sociopath, who needs us to give up our autonomy and another partner, us, who is willing to do so in exchange for the benefits of intensely positive relationship.
We feel like we are in agreement. We feel like winners. But as the relationship progresses, our objectives begin to conflict. We are looking for ongoing emotional support and validation, to feel loved and to know our wellbeing is important to our partner. They are looking for control of resources in their ongoing struggle to survive as unconnected loners. Once they have won with us, they turn their attention to new sources, unless we threaten to revolt. Then, they may re-groom us with loving attention or try to diminish our will through verbal, emotional or physical abuse. For them, the choice of technique isn’t meaningful, as long as it works. Over time, they are more openly annoyed at “wasting” energy on us, unless they are getting something new out of it.
For us, living with a sociopath’s reality is both a radical re-education and an ongoing demolition of beliefs we need to be true. LoveFraud is peppered with statements that begin with “How could he”¦?” and “I can’t believe that”¦” and “What kind of person would”¦?” One of the core pieces of our learning the sociopath’s reality is feeling alone, unsupported and unable to depend on a supposedly trusted connection. Another piece is the feeling of emotional starvation and being in a game designed to keep us in the loser role. Another is the discovery that trust is a fool’s game, and we have to stop if we’re going to survive.
That’s not all. There is the chronic bitterness, envy and resentfulness. There is the aggrieved entitlement to any behavior that serves them, as payback for whatever forced them to jam their ability to trust into the locked basement of their psyches. There is the whole mechanical modus operandi, rigidly designed to avoid the fear and grief of abandonment. There is frantic need to keep busy, developing new schemes to avoid slipping into a pit of depression that they equate with suicide. Ruthless survivors, at whatever cost to themselves or anyone else, is probably the most accurate way to describe them.
All this is what we have been exposed to.
Understanding the lesson
“When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive,” is a well-known Buddhist saying. Another bit of Buddhist wisdom is that we fall in love with our teachers.
When it comes to relationships with sociopaths, this perspective can be a hard pill to swallow. However, we can agree that falling in love with these people initiates one of the most costly and painful lessons of our lives. For those of us who are vulnerable to these relationships, the lesson is also difficult to untangle and ultimately profound. Eventually, it leads many of us to question some of our deepest beliefs and to find the courage to let go of beliefs that have outlived their usefulness, even though they once gave us comfort and feelings of safety in the world.
Fortunately, that courage pays off for us, though we may not know it while we’re grieving something we loved. The greatest achievements of our lives often involve surmounting fear to take huge risks. There is no more fearful risk than letting go of a foundation belief that we trusted for our survival. But we let it go when we have no choice, because it is clearly no longer adequate to support our survival.
In a relationship with a sociopath, we are immersed in an entirely different human reality than our own. The mutual attraction between people of a sociopathic type and people who have codependent tendencies is a cliché that is probably not accurate to all the people and situations described on LoveFraud, but it does describe an interpersonal dynamic that is reasonably consistent. Even people who have been blindsided by out-of-the-blue personality changes face the challenges of dealing with sociopathic relationships with our non-sociopathic beliefs and survival strategies.
This interpersonal dynamic is a kind of head-on collision of radically different survival styles. The sociopathic partner is committed to depending on himself, no matter what temporary dependencies he or she might arrange. The other partner is oriented toward depending on agreements of mutual support. This doesn’t mean that non-sociopaths cannot survive outside an intimate relationship, anyone who would attract them or even consider a relationship with one of them probably is the type of person who feels they do better in reciprocal, committed and trust-based partnership with another person.
The reason codependency comes into this is that codependents and others on the dependent side of the personality spectrum experience needs (rather than wants) in their preference for mutual support as a survival strategy. The more intimate the relationship, the more they need the other person to become actively involved in the preservation their wellbeing, especially in the emotional realm. Those perceived needs (rather than wants) make it more likely they will bargain away important aspects of their identity, resources and plans into order to obtain that caring attention.
Sociopathic survival depends on other people’s agreements to provide them with resources. We could argue that they are just as dependent as we are, but the key difference is the way we make decisions about our lives. Sociopathic decisions are “me” oriented, whether they are impulsive in-the-moment choices or important long-term choices of change in life direction. Their partners — who are both targeted by the sociopath and self-selected by their tolerance or inability to escape the sociopath’s treatment in relationship — have the tendency to put “us” first in their decision-making.
At this point, I can hear rumbling out there of “Tell me something I don’t know.” I know you know. But I hope this long description clarifies the real nature of our challenge. We have been closely involved with someone who doesn’t trust or connect emotionally, and who uses our need or desire for a trustworthy partner to enforce our involvement and extract resources that he or she has no intention of repaying. We have immigrated to planet Sociopath and our visas are all stamped “loser.”
Since this is their world, what would they tell us if we asked them about how to get this loser stamp off our visa? If we caught them at a moment when they were blissed out with anti-anxiety drugs stolen from their last girlfriend or feeling generous because they were feeling flush after some big win, they might say, “Don’t be such a dope. The world is full of people and situations in which other people win by using you. If you don’t care enough about you to protect yourself and your resources, this is what you get. Save your whining for your victim friends. You must like it or you wouldn’t volunteer for it.”
Ouch. Well, the Buddhists don’t say anything about the teacher being a nice guy.
Power and Resilience
The meaning of this lesson changes as we move through our phases of healing. People in early-stage recovery are terrified by the prospect of a world without trust. People in the angry stage are fighting back, sharpening their skills at identifying situations and people that cannot be trusted, building better boundaries against aggressive users, and getting active in neutralizing threats to them and people they care about.
After we develop and practice these skills, we earn some confidence about our ability to deal with incoming threats. This enables us to gradually shift our focus from vigilance against threats (what we don’t want) to interest recreating our lives (what we do want). We don’t forget what happened or minimize its importance. But we build on what we learned about our power and entitlement to make choices. Maybe for the first time since we were teenagers, we invest serious thought on how we want to feel, who we want to be, and the way we want our lives to play out in this new world.
With our power to choose comes increased emotional independence. We start viewing our lives as something we create and our results as something we earned. We still value relationships, but we are less willing to compromise our identities, give away our resources or change our plans. We become more interested in less dramatic relationships with other people who are learning through living. We share stories, validation and encouragement, but we are also conscious of each other’s limited resources. A relationship may naturally deepen. But we don’t need that to survive, and we are cautious, because we don’t want to discover too late that our great friendship did not prepare us for the different needs of a love affair.
When we face the idea of never trusting again in the way we once did, it can be very scary. The scariest thing is what might happen inside us. We don’t want to become suspicious, angry people. We don’t want to live in a constant state of anxious alert.
But we’re not giving up the ability to trust. We’re giving up something else, the trust of a child who has no choice but to trust, because it is dependent. And so that child turns to magical thinking to preserve belief in the trustworthiness of its parents or the safety of its environment, no matter how much evidence there may be to the contrary. This is the mirror-reverse of the sociopath’s survival strategy of blocking of trust. If we are still doing this magical thinking as adults, we also are dealing with blocked development that keeps us in a childlike reality. In learning to trust conditionally, and to limit our investments in other people’s lives to match what we get out of it, we are transitioning to the world of grown-up trust.
The childlike trust is a trust in being loved and supported, no matter what. In truth, we haven’t really believed in this for a long time. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have kept paying more and more to be accepted and loved. Even though we can live in ways that reduce our risk, we already know that no one can really buy an insurance policy against things changing. Everything changes. An awake, aware life creates itself with the knowledge of change. But it doesn’t mean that there is nothing we can trust.
It just means that we trust conditionally. We trust what is consistent, until it isn’t consistent anymore. This makes almost everything in our lives trustworthy. The sun rises and sets. Snarling dogs are likely to bite. Cars eat gas and steel bumpers are stronger but more expensive to replace that plastic ones. Roses like a lot of rain. Tomatoe plants don’t. The leftovers in the refrigerator that smell icky are bad to eat. People who don’t share our ethics or world views are interesting at dinner parties, but risky to do business with or marry. These are background truths we can conditionally trust until something changes.
These smaller, conditional trusts serve the same purpose as our desire for larger, unconditional trusts did before. The real difference is that we trust now in a way that leaves more room for life. Knowing that trust may be transient makes it that much more lovely. We have limited resources — intellectual and emotional — and one of the risks of life is to trust what appears to be stable, so that we can use our resources to make new things grow.
For readers who are not anywhere near ready to feel powerful about their choices, here is a simple rule you can use until you are. Guard your trust as though it were an extension cord from your heart. Don’t give it away to anyone you don’t firmly believe deserves it. And be prepared to unplug the cord at a moment’s notice. You can always plug it back in again, if you find you’ve made a mistake by unplugging it. No one who really cares (or who is capable of caring) about you will mind you taking care of yourself. But your trust in other people and in the world should be a conduit for good into your life. That’s what it’s for.
If it brings anything else, don’t thing twice. Unplug it. A good life should have lots of these extension cords, some heavier duty than others, leading to all kinds of things that bring us good. People, institutions, books, artists, blogs. If unplugging one or two makes us feel lost or destabilized, it probably means we need to find more things we enjoy without our lives depending on it.
In conclusion, you’ve probably all figured out that this is really about “becoming the sociopath,” but in a good way. We use the contagion to strengthen some of our weak spots, and to gain access to the “inner sociopath” when it’s appropriate. There is fundamentally nothing wrong with what sociopaths do, except that it’s all that they do. They can’t respond to love. They can’t trust anything but themselves. They can’t stop replaying their primal drama, because their lack of trust blocks them from ever learning that they are not alone.
Fortunately for us, more dependent types are open to input. We not only can learn, but many of us are truly excited by anything that breaks us out of our limitations. We know we’re not losers, but sometimes it takes a long time to overcome our training. In getting involved with a sociopath, we took the biggest risk of our lives. We stuck our heads into the mouth of the lion, and if you’ve gotten this far, you’ve taken a good look around and said, “Hey, I can do that.”
Next time, unless I get distracted, we will discuss love. This week I will not be available to follow the thread, so I hope you enjoy it, that it makes some sense to everyone, and it makes you feel good about wherever you are now. If you are on LoveFraud, I think you deserve to feel proud of yourself.
Namaste. The spirit of enlightened self-caring in me salutes the spirit of enlightened self-caring in you.
Kathy
To All ….in summary it is like we have slept with the enemy…It is beyond our capacity of compprehention…the person who we loved so much, who we put in first place before ourselves, who we felt sorry when he was sad, we give our own soul to safe hes soul….we have children together we bulit a life together (at least this is what we chose to believe in).(22 years married – 3 very happy 10 with ups and downs – 7 of hell)..and then ……when you have no more tears left, no more energy left, no more capacity to love yourself, no more hopes or self steem, no more room to breath…and you see yourself falling apart and the future and safety of your children at risk. When you see everything that you work for and that you built is collapsing…somehow you still have the wisdom to jump out of the sinking ship and give him the ship for him to navigate safely. And you decided to swimm alone caring the children…and them you see him going loughing and you are nearly drowning with the children and as you struglle to survive he loughs…. and then suddenly you find yourself on the shore. you feel safe. and the ship caring him with all your hopes is gone. That is how I describe my experience. But he didn’t know that he left behind not three drowning souls but three diamonds, three strong beings, with a lot of wisdom and self love. That the best thing we felt was to be able to feel safe againg but traumatised by the experience. But never, ever disbelieving in ourselves. What wonderful children did I have and they still are, each and everyday flourishing. We have rebuilt spetacurlaly and never have done anything to destroy the father. Instead we gathered the litle bit of energy we had left and start climbing again. and climbing and climbing..Today we are on top and we have no time to think of what if or what is happenning to him. but we know. I only start understanding who I was married with, after I let him go. The man who I believed I have married never existed. It was a lie since the first day but I felt for it, because I didn’t know better. I survive through it because I didn’t know any other way. I only knew what was happening after he was gone because I had time to start learning and understanding. Boy oh boy How relieved I feel. The pride and joy of seeing us so successfully I can not describe. The pride I feel for my daughter and son is undescribible. The pride they feel towards me is beyond words..
So for those who is going through this pain one word of advise. Use your energies to be strong within yourself. Rebuilt, reconstruct, because we are all here to listen and share. I wish I had this support when I was going through the storm. Slowly I will give more details. But one thing he forgot……we were the people who made him feel so powerful , so wonderful, so desirable, so charming…without us he is nobody..he is nothing. he will not impress because time will tell the whole word the truth. and then is when they break down.. we do not have to move a finger. our success is their disgrace..
confused2
I still feel and believe that’s what really hurt me the most. That I loved an illusion and that I wasted 17 years of my life believing a lie. This is something I still haven’t gotten over with and some days confused2 I really don’t think If will ever get over that. But yes, confused2 once I accepted this it made it so much easier for me to let this dream and illusion go….
A lie to me no more
An illusion forever gone
I saw that this mirror did crack
Then looked at my mirror
and saw me starring back
Brilhancy
Thank you so much for the post. Filled with sorrow but also filled with courage and hope.
Confused
What a disgusting piece of filth he was. I had similar experiences (though, in my fog, I wasn’t grasping what was going on – we make so many excuses for their unacceptable behaviour). the last evening that I spent with with the ‘devil from hell – I’d already started to ‘root him out’ – he was trying to get me to watch some disgusting porn channel (I won’t go into details because it revolts me, but suffice it to say it was all about some dirty old men with a young woman – very degrading and NOT my ‘thing’ at all – retch!) – I said “PLEASE, turn this off and he said ‘I think it’s funny’ – it’s all so twisted and not – and never was me – whenever I think of this ( and I try not to) I think ‘ He made my life dirty and tainted’ – my life was never that way and isn’t now – so well rid love………… errrrrr!
I totally understand your comments about feeling ashamed and embarrasses – I have never told anyone else about this but I hope it helps you to feel that your reactions are ‘normal’. Well, I think they are. I couldn’t really care what ‘floats someone’s boat’ just don’t foist it on me –
The whole ‘sex’ thing with S/N/Ps is another dimension – I’m just glad I’m out and didn’t get into anything on that front.
Halleluja!
All love to you doll and keep posting for strength!
E x
James
Your comments are so poignant – so brave. It inspires me to share things and connect – even the really uncomfortable stuff to ‘confused’. If anything can come out of all that ‘s***’ (sorry) – and help another trying to recover from these ‘half-humans’ it’s worth it.
I felt so alone, so mad and crazy for the past year – so many things that I felt sooo ashamed about – not my shame, I now realise (I wasn’t the one cheating, lying, manipulating, being unfaithful and downright dangerous) – this site has been a godsend – thanks to you all.
Thanks.
James, Escapee
James, letting go of the hopes and dreams…the illusion, was the hardest for me. Even after I said goodbye I had some doubts after a few days. Then I found this site, thank goodness. It may be a week now that I have had a low point where I thought, if he called I may take him back.
Escapee, your comment about “twisted” hit home. He twisted my mind and was proud of it. My son said to me once, “He is empty inside and is trying to fill the emptiness with you”. My son is only 9 years old and he saw S’s true self!
Mostly I feel relieved that this S is out of my life, but I still catch myself thinking of him. I try to stay busy constantly keep my mind occupied always. The more time that goes by the easier it gets for me.
confused2
Wow out of the mouth of babes…
My youngest once said “Dad, it’s like she is full of cancer”. I look at him and said “yes, son I guess you are right”
I didn’t know what he meant at the time but later I thought to myself that maybe he was talking about emotional cancer a type of sickness inside of her. My youngest is more like me then my oldest insomuch that J is a very passionate child. J loved his mother very very much and what happen hurt him just as much. Seeing a little bit of her dying inside of him almost killed me emotionally. I asked a counseling at his school to talk with him and let me know if she saw anything I should be concerned with. Thank God she never reported anything back to me concerning J. I asked her if I should get J into therapy (she was a therapist) but told me how she force her child into therapy after his dad left and how his therapist told her she was wasting her money because her son wasn’t ready to open up to him. So I didn’t force it on J unless I saw something I thought he might have to deal with. I told J this and we both agreed that if I witness anything we both should be concern with that he would have to attend therapy.
Hi, I’m just back from being gone for most of two days at a trade show, and scanning through the posts above. We have some new people who have come in with a lot of thinking already done. Welcome. You’re posts are wonderful.
Someone wrote:
I was never a vengeful person, I never took pleasure or satisfaction in hearing of anyone’s misfortune AND NOW (as you expressed so succinctly) where Ss are concerned we, at best think ’good!’ and, at worst (where I go from time to time) wish the worst torment and pain would befall them. This is what they take from us – our humanity.
In the spirit of the article which began this thread, I’d like to suggest that they didn’t really steal our humanity. It’s more like they borrowed it — or rather all the resources that our feeling temperaments offered — and likewise our contact with them caused us to become a lot more familiar with how they feel.
Feeling envious, angry and vengeful are pretty par for the course for them. And if my theory of contagion is correct, we’ve come away from them with a whole new set of emotional reactions which we ordinarily don’t allow ourselves to feel. Part of the big challenge of recovery is to integrate their stuff with our stuff and come out of it a more well-rounded person.
But it’s tough to do. It takes getting used to new feelings, and figuring how to use them and actually master them. A lot of the conversation on this thread comes out of the angry phases, and some of it even before that, when we’re still flirting with full-blown anger.
I believe that this is a crucial part of our healing, and our growing ability to take care of ourselves. I think that if we had been good at anger before we met these people, we might have been more reactive in the face of things that were hurtful to us. No matter how involved were or enmeshed in their lives, we would have been faster to blow up, get these things out in the open between us in a no-nonsense way, get clear about what is unacceptable in our lives, and if it couldn’t be cured, dismiss these people. No matter what it cost us or how much it hurt us.
So getting angry, getting comfortable with our right to be angry when something bad is done to us, making that entitlement a fully integrated part of our lives, and then learning how to do all in a way that is graceful and efficient is a kind of progressive mastery of anger that can literally change our lives.
Later, when we gotten through all that, we can begin to turn our attention to what we want, rather than what we don’t want.
But all of this takes time. Which is why the recovery process doesn’t happen overnight. In a way — actually in a lot of ways — a relationship with a sociopath not only introduces to what’s wrong out in the world, but to weaknesses in our own survival strategies.
And certainly an internal rule against being angry, envious or vengeful can block us from responding in a timely and effective way to threats to our wellbeing.
Here are a few definitions (mine) of these words.
Anger is a normal response from our deep survival system (brain stem) regarding a threat that part of brain regards as potentially damaging and requiring fast action. Anger both focuses the brain on the threat and prepares our body for battle. (Just because our survival brain demands immediate action doesn’t mean that our higher layers of brain won’t give us a more sophisticated and effective approach to the problem, if we decide it’s safe to think about it a bit, before we jump into action.)
Envy is a form of visioning (thinking about what we want) that is triggered by seeing someone who has something that we’d like to have. It has a bad name, because it’s associated with resentment and feelings of disenfranchisement. But it’s really about wishing we had something someone else has, and if not for the associated negative emotions, could just as well be a motivator for us to work on some personal objective.
Vengeful feelings are about balancing a situation in which we feel harmed, ripped off, offended, etc. We experience a kind of theft, and we want if not repayment, at least a rebalancing that shares the experience of loss with the other party. We don’t want to feel like victims and losers. And for good reason. We don’t want to start a pattern of feeling used to this (viewing ourselves a long-term victims). And there may be external factors — like the way other people view us or the relative resources that we’ve lost and the other person has gained — that may affect our status, future opportunities or ability to bounce back. The impulse is part of the anger spectrum related to our deep drive to survive. (Acting on vengeful feelings, like other manifestations of anger, is often better postponed until we figure out what is really in our own best interest.)
Whatever we may have been taught — and often our training has caused us to block these feelings — a full recovery from these relationships involves us getting to know these feelings better, learning what they mean in our lives, and how to use them appropriately.
The fact the sociopaths feel and act on these feelings on a regular basis puts us in close contact with the feelings, and also provides us with an object lesson in how not being familiar with and able to master these feelings plays out in our lives, when we meet someone who can use them.
I’m not suggesting that we become permanently angry, envious and vengeful people. Fortunately — unlike sociopaths — we have a much broader emotional spectrum than that. That makes it a bit more complicated to think — at higher level — about how we will ultimately respond. But it also enables us to find solutions that allow us to continue to exist in society, rather than as outlaws. But feeling these feelings and developing mastery of them as part of our emotional spectrum and available responses makes us more human, not less. And more functional in the end.
I hope this makes sense.
Namaste.
Kathy
confused2,
It is amazing how much perception our children have of the whole situation. I think their emotional attachement with the S is at a different level than us, the partner. After my separation (still not divorced – more on this later) I asked forgivenes to my children for breaking up the family. My daugther said: “Mum you have not broken up the family. Dad broke himself. We didn’t have a family before, now we are a family. We just do not understand why it took so long for you to break up with him. I feel that I lift a heavy weight from my shoulders”:
Confused, this was nearly 10 years ago and I just discoved this site now. The road to recovery is a long one, but we will recover. The Ss will never recover..Their lives will be a hell. They have to keep running, lying, deceiving others as a mean of survival…How pathetic is that.. No matter how S they are they have their moments of reflexion… and the inner guilt will corrode their existence..
Yes, they tried to destroy our existence because that is the only purpose of their lifes to validate themselves, since they know they have nothing good inside.
Yes, and we miss those love and tender moments…but they were not real..they were part of a game…to hook us…and to make us fragile emotionally…so they could manipulate us more and more…Hey look at the bright side. those moments were real to us…they were just fake to them we lived a true loving moments…and how good is that…they, on the other hand, will never know the meaning of a true feeling. at the end they have been cheated in life..
Look at this way…drug is some thing that make addict people feel good. They know the drugs are not good..that slowly will kill them. but they still want the drug. What happens after they try to break the addiction? It is hard. This is what we are going through. We are breaking the addiction to a drug that was killing us. but yet we felt good when we were taking them..
Glad to hear from you and welcome back Kathleen Hawk