After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 13 – Happy Emotional Independence Day
Happy Independence Day weekend. It is a lucky coincidence that this is our topic, because emotional freedom is truly about personal revolution. It is an end to collaboration with and submission to abuse. It is an end to the emotional slavery of feeling responsible for other people’s feelings and other things that are beyond our control.
Emotional freedom is something that might be difficult to imagine when we are in the first stages of healing — especially if it’s the first time we’ve ever processed an abuse-related trauma all the way through to the end. At least once, we need to go through all the stages to take a good look at patterns of denial or bargaining that made us vulnerable to abusers or tolerant of their behavior. We need to develop internal strengths — like easy access to anger and confidence in our rights to defend ourselves — that might have been suppressed before. We need to learn for ourselves that we can live through loss and letting go, and actually learn something from it.
But if we get to this point — thinking about the idea of emotional freedom and working on developing it in ourselves — we are close to the end of fully integrating this experience. Turning it into a gift rather than a disaster, and coming out of this long tunnel with our new selves in a new world.
What does respect have to do with it?
In the last article on self-love, the concept of respect was introduced. It is connected to self-love, because as we come to love, trust and believe we are entitled to care for ourselves, we develop a sense of separateness. Of boundaries. We come to realize that we have private interests, concerns and needs. They belong to us. They are our responsibility. They are also the sources of good in our lives. And we are entitled to explore them, define them for ourselves, pursue them, and plan our lives around them.
If anyone reading this finds the last paragraph triggering an emotional reaction, a feeling like you really need to get away from this article, go find something else to read here on LoveFraud, you have clear evidence of something important in yourself. Because that paragraph contradicts all the emotional training of abusive, enmeshed, victim-rescuer environments that demand loyalty, silence and compromises of identity and self-respect in order to be loved or simply survive.
The first time I ever encountered information like that, I read it over and over. The words made sense. But they didn’t compute. I had phrases popping up in my head like “easy for you to say” and “you don’t live with the demands and pressures that I do” and “I would be rejected by everyone I need to support me, if I thought like that.”
If you are having a reaction like that, I understand and respect the reality behind it. This push-back is coming from a normal strategy for survival that works. If we are willing to give up pieces of ourselves — our independence, our individuality, our ethics, our expressiveness — we can get paid for it. One of the real challenges that every person faces in life is to walk a fine line of balancing what we can do, need to do and are willing to do to fulfill our survival needs and our discretionary (but important) wants.
Where this becomes dysfunctional and self-destructive is when our sense of what we can give away — and still survive as whole people — is broken. When we have been “trained” in some excruciating and threatening situation to deny important aspects of our identity or fundamental human needs in order to get through it. When that situation is finally over, we are often left with warped ideas of relationships. But more important, our relationships with ourselves are damaged . Because it felt like a choice, even we perceived it as life or death. Some part of us holds us responsible and simply does not trust us anymore. We may live around it. We may develop all kind of strengths to compensate. But it feels as though some wires have been pulled inside of us. As though the lights have gone out in certain rooms of our mind.
This is why, for so many people, it is necessary to find a good therapist, experienced in trauma or childhood abuse, to help us untangle these situations. The “cure” is to go back and reject the deal we made. Not reject ourselves, but to reject the unfairness and inhumanity of the circumstances that forced us to do this damage to ourselves. Do it in memory, but also in our emotional systems. To identify the causes as abusive and wrong and not respectful of our normal human needs to maintain our own integrity. And to say to ourselves, and possibly the people involved, I no longer agree to this deal. I am taking myself back.
Integrity, like respect, is one of those words that many of us barely understand. We talk about integrity in terms of ethical issues, and that’s part of it. But integrity is much more than that. The world means wholeness, like “integer” means a whole number, rather than a fraction of a number. For our purposes here, we can imagine it as having all the internal “electrical” parts that we are supposed to have — all the natural emotions, open connections among the various parts of our brain, a balanced and high-functioning nervous system, vivid sensory awareness — adding up to keen animal survival instincts and the full range of sentient consciousness we have as human beings.
If something disrupts or corrupts our integrity in any way, we feel it deeply. We live with the pain of knowing something inside of us is not right. For many of us, that pain is the way we know ourselves best. But as we start to resolve these issues, to go back and reject those deals and repair ourselves, we become more conscious of something we have mutely longed for — the simple but powerful feeling of wholeness. Our integrity.
Even if we get there by incremental resolutions of the sources of pain — which is how most of us do get there — every step forward delivers a breathtaking new awareness of who we really are. It’s not that we are special exactly, although we are. Or good, although we are. But that we are. The word “I” becomes different. It’s no longer associated with any sort of battle for recognition or acceptance or love. It is awareness of some central identity that is the backbone or hub or inner seed of everything about us.
And when we grasp this, this permanent center in us, it is easier to understand the concept of respect. Because as we look around us, we realize that every living thing is also organized around something like this. We could talk about this from all sorts of angles — genes, souls, whatever — but when we find it in ourselves, we recognize it in other lives. In this we are alike, but also separate. We can relate, and we also may find that we have a great deal in common. But our identity, our integrity is our own. As theirs are theirs. Knowing this is the cornerstone of respect. The knowledge that we have boundaries, that something inside of us belongs to only us.
Having grown-up relationships with ourselves
It’s logical that we can’t have adult relationships with anyone else, if we don’t have adult relationships with ourselves. That doesn’t mean that we lose touch with our inner child. Or that we don’t experience the less “practical” states of emotion or awareness that enrich our lives.
What it does mean that is that we take our own needs seriously. That we recognize our needs as needs. Necessary. Not optional.
A whole, healthy human identity has different layers of needs. Some relate to physical survival. Others are about emotional health, intellectual development, social connection, and more. The study of human needs has interested many brilliant people. But for me, the most helpful of them has been Marshall Rosenberg, creator of non-violent communication (NVC) and the man who introduced me to the concept of emotional freedom.
NVC is based on the premise that all people have needs, and ultimately the most effective type of communication is about sharing information about our needs. Rather than going more deeply into that concept, I recommend two brief videos on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dpk5Z7GIFs and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbgxFgAN7_w&NR=1. If you find this article challenging, I guarantee these videos will help you make more sense of it.
Rosenberg points out that a lot of our language is basically about power and control. That is, keeping power and control in the hands of people who have it already. There is a lot of judgment in our language, ways to make people — including ourselves — wrong. And this language serves to separate us from our needs, or minimize the idea that everyone has normal human needs. As a result, compassion becomes subjugated to “rules.” Even though we are aware of our own suffering or the difficulties faced by other people, our responses are not compassionate or questioning of their (or our) circumstances. Instead, we are trained to assume there is something wrong with them, they are bad in some way, or they have some contagious problem we should avoid.
A few examples of this are racism, elitism and ageism — ways that we “name” other people that makes it easy to blames them or judge them, without having to consider their realities and how lack of resources may be contributing to their “lower than” status or behavior. Another example of this is the Magna Carta, the foundation of English law (and U.S law by extension), which is not about human rights at all, but only a concession by the Norman king of England to honor the property rights of Norman nobles who had come from France to claim and rule English land and the “serfs” attached to it. One of the difficulties we face as victims of sociopaths is that common law incorporates very little recognition of human needs, beyond our property rights to our own bodies, and even that is limited in many ways. The rights of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and free speech and religious choice in the U.S. Constitution were huge advances that shook the world of absolute monarchies.
To get back to needs, here is a partial list of needs from NVC website (www.cnvc.org), which has been developed over the years by people working with this type of communication:
Connection — acceptance, affection, appreciation, consideration, mutuality, support, to understand and be understood, trust
Physical well-being — air, food, movement/exercise, rest/sleep, sexual expression, safety, shelter
Honesty — authenticity, integrity
Play — joy, humor
Peace — harmony, order
Meaning — clarity, competence, contribution, effectiveness, growth, hope, mourning, purpose, self-expression, to matter
Autonomy — choice, independence
The first time I saw this list, I was mind-blown. It never occurred to me that I was entitled to even want most of these things. At the time, I was still struggling with whether I was allowed to feel angry, because the sociopath made me feel bad. The idea that I could unapologetically pursue any of these things in my life was staggering. All of a sudden all those internalized voices with comments like “You’re getting too big for your britches” and “No one likes a crybaby” and “You have to suffer to go to heaven” and (the monster of them all) “You owe us” became more clearly what they were. Coercive “rules” to convince me to forget about my needs.
But the needs didn’t go away, because I agreed to give them up in order to stay in that family. Unmet needs continue to generate demands and feelings. All of us are familiar with the how it feels to be treated with disrespect. You can find another list of it feels when our need are met or unmet here at the NVC website. If you want good reason to start thinking about getting your needs met, you’ll find it here. In a nutshell, would you rather feel happy, confident and fulfilled, or angry, helpless and despairing? Not a hard choice.
Empathy and self-interest
Structuring our lives to meet our own needs means several things. First it makes us responsible for our own feelings, because we realize that they are generated by our needs. If our needs are not being met, it is our responsibility to take care of ourselves. This is part of survival and also integrity. It is the essence of compassion for ourselves. Thinking about our needs also helps us interpret our experiences in ways that don’t make us wrong, but simply people who trying to get their needs met, often in situations that are not particularly supportive and that force us to look elsewhere in creative ways to keep ourselves healthy and whole.
It also makes us less inclined to take responsibility for other people’s feelings. We may empathize with them. We may see that our mothers are dissatisfied with how their lives turned out or our fathers are suffering because they feel like failures. We can see they are expressing negative emotions at us, because they have unmet needs. Or trying to manipulate us, because they are trying to get their needs met. But we also see that this is their stuff. The language they use of disappointment, anger, regrets and demands is about them — their inner landscape, how they view themselves and the world — and not about us. Even when they are trying to recruit us to their reality by making it about us.
One of the ways we can define sociopathic interactions or N/S/P relationships is that someone wants us to take responsibility for fulfilling his or her needs, in ways that cause us to abandon our needs. All the love-bombing, gaslighting, guilt-tripping and various types of abuse are just strategies to obtain this result.
A reasonable question would be: if we become emotionally independent, does that mean we become just like sociopaths? If we don’t feel responsible for other people’s feelings, does that make us unfeeling monsters?
I think you already know the answer to that. Not feeling responsible is not the same as not caring. (Just as caring doesn’t mean that we are responsible.) If we choose, we can offer support in ways that don’t compromise our integrity or well-being. We may feel sorry for our sociopath’s hard luck story and sympathize, but not agree to help him murder his ex-wife. In less extreme situations, we may give our friend or family member the gift of sympathetic attention. The key is to decide what we can afford to do without compromising our primary responsibility to take care of ourselves.
For practice in emotional independence, here are possible responses to use with people who are pressuring us, complaining about our behavior, judging or naming us (“you’re always so selfish”) or using any confusing or indirect means to get their needs met through us.
“I empathize with you, but I’m not certain what you’re telling me you want from me”
“What do you need to make you feel better?”
“Is there something you want from this relationship that you’re not getting?”
You are looking for more concrete requests, so you can decide whether you can meet their needs without damage to yourself. Often, with non-sociopathic people, these discussions are very fruitful. Both sides come to understand each other better, and often find simple things they can do for each other that un-trigger the feelings of unmet needs. (“I don’t feel like you really respect me” often turns out to be nothing more serious than a request to share the dog-walking responsibilities.)
However when we’re talking to people who are cannot be honest about their feelings, needs or wants, or actually have a control-related reason for hiding these things from us, our questions may be treated like an invasion of privacy or cause an attack of criticism, more emotional acting out, or obvious dissembling.
If we choose, we can do some empathetic probing (“I hear that you’re angry, but I’m not sure what you’re asking for.”) or suggestions about what’s going on with them (“Is this about you feeling lonely?”). But if they still refuse to say anything that sounds like they are talking about their own needs (rather than talking about us) or making specific requests, so that we can make choices about what we want to do for them, we also have the choice to stop participating in their game.
We can choose that because we meeting our own need to participate in things that are meaningful, respectful and effective. (Or whatever needs are “alive” in us at that moment.)
This is just a brief introduction to emotional independence. It’s not all about self-defense. A lot of it is about being honest with ourselves about our needs, and specific with other people about what we are requesting from them. They are free to turn us down, just as we are free to do the same. But clarity is a wonderful thing.
Imagine how much different our lives would be today if we had said to our ex-S, “You’re a charming person, and I’ve enjoyed our time together. But before we go further, you should know a few things about me. I need fidelity in my sexual relationships, respect for my decisions about myself, appreciation for what I do for you and reciprocity in all financial arrangements. And I need to be able to trust you to be honest. Anything less does not meet my needs.”
Can you imagine saying this? If so, hooray for you. If not, practice in the mirror, with a warm smile on your face as you assume the other person will say, “Wow, excellent list. I’m very comfortable with all of that, and feel the same way myself. Except that I also need fun in my life. Are you down with that?” When you can do this without worrying about what other people think of you or how this makes them feel, you’ll be a lot closer to being able to manage healthy friendships and intimate relationships. The next article is will be about love.
Namaste. The happy independent spirit in me salutes the happy independent spirit in you.
Kathy
Donna Andersen is author of three books, including 
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135 Comments on "After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 13 – Happy Emotional Independence Day"
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Kathy,
Once again, you’ve spoken to my heart. This article was thought provoking, challenging and scarey. I am on the right path – just feel so friggin’ good to be on the other side with no intent of going back. I DO have something to compare this with, and that is the cult involvement with which I was a member beginning in 1971 and exiting in 1987. When I left I didn’t yet know it was a cult; only that I could no longer do it because the last 4 years the 12 step program I was involved in taught me that I had to check my motives. I realized my motives for remaining in the “church” were fear and guilt. I left with only that much knowledge. Two weeks later I saw an article in Portland regarding a seminar on cults, which piqued my curiosity so I went. While there I was given a book relating to the cult I was in. I had been taught that reading any outside material was a no-no. I kept the copy by my bedside and would fearfully read a bit at a time and put it down when I started feeling God might zap me. What transpired was that over the next few weeks I began “thawing”. It was as if my emotions were coming out of the deep freeze. The next two years were wrought with sensations of floating, depersonalization, derealization, feelings that I couldn’t keep living, anxiety, depression,etc. I eventually ended up in a support group that included survivors from Jonestown, Moonies and others. In fact, I was in the cult with the Psychopath and our children. We left the cult together in 1987 and the Psychopath left our family in 1991. When I went to Wellspring in Ohio for in-patient treatment in 1996 for residual issues, I was told that the cult “contained” the Psychopath’s madness. It still took me another 13 years to internalize that I had indeed been married to a Psychopath and what that meant. Prior to my aha moment in April, (the Psychopath and I had gotten back together in November 08 for Thanksgiving at our daughters), I began having lots of red flags regarding him. I attribute this to the fact that I had 18 years apart from him, had acquired an MSW and much counseling, with continued recovery in the 12 step program.
Where I stand now is that for about 3 1/2 weeks after I broke it off with the Psychopath, I experienced feelings of trauma of a magnitude off of the Richter scale. I lived on LOVEFRAUD. Then things slowly receeded. It was just like my cult experience, and since I had been through the whole experience, I had that to compare it with. I knew when I broke up with him that I “got” it and would never go back. It hasn’t been an option for me, nor have I ever wanted to. I feel “deprogrammed”. I realize that is an ancient term, but for lack of a better term will use it.
The issues I am faced with now are that I used my marriage to the Psychopath at 19 years of age to cover up the pain of my childhood. I am in therapy to deal with what I ran from at 19 and am now 62. My childhood involved trauma of such a magnitude that I was bordering on Dissociative Identity Disorder. Thank God for a nurturing aunt and a delightful doting 3rd grade Catholic nun – dear little Sister Mary Blanche.
I still FEEL needy, abandoned, helpless and terrified of doing life apart from someone else to be the grown-up. The difference is that I am doing it regardless of my feelings. I am making healthy choices for myself, learning who I am apart from another, saying the Serenity prayer alot and navigating the terrain sometimes quietly on tiptoe. I journal, have developed a social life, am learning to spend time alone, even if it feels horrible, doing a little volunteer work, spending time with my children and grandchildren as we are able, going to the church of my choice, grocery shopping like a big girl, having the car serviced and whatever else life presents. I don’t pretend anymore to be more brave than I feel. I just choose to do the action step and feel the uncomfortable feelings.
Kathy, thank you so very much for the love, companioning and honesty you share with us. You are a jewel!!!
housie, thanks for your response. And for saying the article was “scary” as well as the other nice things you said. I think this is scary stuff, in the sense that we have to be willing to break through deeply embedded training to even consider becoming emotionally free.
You, of all people know this. And I don’t know how to adequately express my admiration for your persistence in getting yourself free and my respect for the huge amount of work that has gone into it.
I love the way you talk about what you’re doing “like a big girl.” I know exactly how that feels, stepping out into the unknown with a sense of that I need to learn how to do something, and then learning on my feet. This is what I mean, when I talk about unblocking a developmental path, and then letting it “grow up.” It’s scary and funny and kind of breathtaking to feel some lost childish part of myself awakening, then zooming up through maturation, catching up with the rest of me.
And I much admire that you’re doing things that feel uncomfortable. I was listening to a CD by one of my favorite teachers, Arjuna Ardagh (who is great on deprogramming issues), talking about how we tend to meditate in ways that play to our strengths, rather than in ways that challenge us or that we feel “aren’t allowed.”
Doing the action and feeling the uncomfortable feelings, as you write, is just such a great way to discover yourself. As you know, a lot of us have come to really love become the “sole proprietors” of our lives.
So finally, thank you for the kind words. I never know if my writing will land well, and your encouragement is gratefully received.
Kathy
Kathy,
You’re funny!!! Let me tell you, I’d rather be having dinner at June Cleaver’s house and hanging out with the “Beav” than growing. I do it kicking and screaming with claw marks on the nearest object. It’s survival of the fittest. Today I listened to a tape my counselor let me borrow by Mark Grant (who is Austrailian), on EMDR. It’s called Calm and Confident. I am not a CD person, but the pain today was a great motivator. That Austrailan voice was very soothing and I camped out at the ocean in my own living room.
Your writing landed exceptionally well, and I’ll be reviewing it prn. Sally
Kathy, Thanks for your thought provoking article. What I got out of your article was empowerment to take responsiblity for “my” feelings and comfort zone,. In doing this we are not being selfish by honoring our own wishes, and desires- instead we are freeing ourselves to have better, more honest relationships that are MUTUALLY satisfying.
I have been in several relationships, and friendships ,- even aside from the x n/p. that were so needy or drama based that I felt my only role was to “fix” their bottomless pit of needs or even worse, make (and Keep) them smiling in some way . Most of these people were miserable human beings to begin with, and I had no chance of making a dent in the frown that was permanently etched on their face or the forehead with MISERY tattoed across it.
I completely lost sight of the “purpose” for the relationship to begin with which was to MUTUALLY enjoy each others company. I can’t ever understand why in the midst of these relationships, I don’t just stop and tell the person that I can’t DO whatever they are asking or that I am not happy in the situation as it is!! It never seems to dawn on me that I have this choice!WHY is that, I wonder? I’m sure my comfort zone of avoiding conflict at all costs is a major reason. If you asked:, So how is that working out for me? You’d see a frown on MY face with a resounding – Not (working). As pointed out in this article-working on my emotional independence must be the answer.
Thanks, Kathy for pointing this out- would love to see more on this subject and on setting strong boundaries. This for me, is still a difficult subject and I find myself isolating from others due to fear of getting caught up again in the dysfunctional roller coaster.
Housie, I am so glad that your continueing your healing journey and am proud of your shopping,taking care of yourself, etc. like a “a big girl.: 😉 I feel the exact same way, as I am having to do many big girl things in my life now. Alittle scary, but I feel so proud of me every time I accomplish something that I didn’t have the confidence to do alone before! take care.. xoxo
Housie,
Since I’ve been progressively venturing out into the world doing job search, my niece tells me I’m “wearing my big girl pants”! Love it!
Kathy,
Thanks a million again! This article is incredibly helpful: I can see how my family of origin was very adept at managing me with controlling language — and I can see some wonderful ways refrain from playing the game. Which I believe will be good for all of us.
The Non-Violent Language information: that’s astounding! What an incredible way to deal with one’s self and others! At first I thought, but what about destructive people? Won’t this set me up for more abuse? Then I read your example of setting healthy limits in a romantic relationship, and I was cheering! That’d do it alright! When I can say something like that and mean it, I’ll quickly know what kind of person I’m dealing with.
This article, like the others, is a real gift.
Thank you,
Betty
Kathy,
When I first read your article, I found myself saying,Whoa-I can’t do that! It feels so selfish. I have spent my whole life being the fixer, the peace keeper, & always putting myself last. This is still a struggle for me today. I think I have made some baby steps in trying to put myself first on occasion, but it still feels so foreign to me. I have also been terrified all my life of any type of confrontations. The consequence of this aspect of myself has led me to always be the one to give in to the wants & needs of others. I somehow convinced myself that as long as the peace was kept, my needs didn’t matter. Another area I need to work on. Thank you so much for this continuing series, I am baby stepping myself along the healing path.
Thank you all for your wonderful comments. Clearly you all “get it” and you’ve given me great feedback on making this more clear and more useful.
housie, you crack me up. I’m familiar with the kicking and screaming part. I think it’s survival of the fittest parts of ourselves. This whole series is about discovering, supporting and ultimately living through our own power, because it’s the only way to greater things like joy, creativity and compassion.
sabrina, it sounds like you and I have similar backgrounds of taking on “project relationships” with people who are depressed, needy or manipulative. We think we can fix them and then we find ourselves slogging in the same swamp. Other than just “no,” my favorite boundary setting phrase is “that doesn’t work for me.” Before I knew about needs, it was just another form of “no.” Now I can add “I need this to be more fair to me, and here’s what would work for me.”
If you’re anything like me, doing this for the first time(s) can be nerve-wracking. I never realized how well-programmed I was to never ask for anything for myself, until I tried to do it. It was like all the punishment I’d ever received for trying to speak up for myself was in my bones. I felt like one of those people trying to learn to walk again after a major car wreck. And I’d already been through assertiveness training. And of course, all those dysfunctional people among our families and friends weren’t exactly helpful.
So I found myself practicing mostly on people I didn’t know. First dates. People who were rude in the supermarket line. Customer service people on the telephone. Until I figured how to say it without stuttering, and so that I was clear enough that people understood. Eventually it becomes easy to do it politely and gracefully most of the time. (“That sounds like a wonderful idea, except I’d like to make one little addition. I’d be glad to lend you the $500 if you’ll leave your mountain bike here until you repay it and sign this note saying the bike is mine if you don’t repay it. That way neither of us have to worry about this ruining our friendship.”)
Betty, you wrote “I can see some wonderful ways refrain from playing the game. Which I believe will be good for all of us.” You’re right it is. However, if your family is like mine, you’re going to get the most resistance from the people who feel the least empowered to speak up for themselves, and who are most likely to use passive-aggressive or indirect means to get their needs met. They will interpret this as you trying to bully them or get power over them, or you being insensitive or discourteous.
The only way I’ve been able to handle this is to just be quietly consistent in my dealings with them without making an issue of it. Being a role model for how this works, especially with people who are inclined to assume the “power over” position. It’s really common for people who feel powerless to get angry or afraid initially, but they’ll watch and think about it. And the words we use — like “this doesn’t work for me” and “I’d like this to be more fair for both of us” — will be something they chew over in their minds. Eventually they’ll figure out that they can do this too, though it can take a while. We can’t jam personal power down the throats of people who have been trained to be submissive (no matter how much we’d like to, because we can wait until people we love figure out that they’re allowed to ask for what they want.)
Betty, I hope you write more about your family adventures with this.
sstiles, your post was exactly what I hoped to hear. I think that fear of confrontation is a big issue with our hesitation to speak up about our own needs and wants. And I think that’s especially true if we’ve grown up with verbal or physical violence. As you say, you’ve taken on the role of the fixer and peacekeeper, and that is a role in which we essentially disappear and invest our energies in other people’s issues (with the ultimate goal of just keeping our environments safe).
We can take those skills and make careers out of them. I think that’s how a lot of people get into fields like psychotherapy or public relations. (I’m continually astounded at how many people in PR come from abusive families.) We’re background people, smoothing things out so that everyone gets their needs met. (And getting paid for it, though money isn’t a total repayment for being invisible. I know in my case, I used a lot of that money for therapy, as well as pain-killing pursuits like shopping and supporting various men who were supposed to make me feel better about myself.)
The thing about confrontation — the thing I think we’re so afraid of — is that it can be a power struggle, if we’re dealing with people who are heavily invested in having the power. In more equitable circumstances, this is just a negotiation. Here’s what you want, here’s what I want, and how can we both get our needs met. All relatively straightforward, and people who are interested in mutually good outcomes are great to deal with.
But when we’re dealing with a bully (or even someone who is less obviously invested in power, but is very effective at using indirect techniques like guilt-tripping or “don’t you care about me?”), we can feel like we’re under attack. And we are. Because their view of the world is that someone has to lose if someone else wins.
With this kind of person, the thing that saves us is getting firmly grounded in our own needs. That means, remembering them, even if we have to write them in ballpoint on the inside our our wrist (my favorite technique) when we enter a negotiation with them. It may be our needs (like fairness, autonomy, acknowledgement) or it may be the associated wants (a written contract, closed-door private time, public acknowledgement for what we do), but it helps to keep us solid with ourselves, so that we don’t get gaslit or otherwise bamboozled.
This isn’t exactly about putting ourselves first, though it can feel like that if we’re asserting ourselves in an environment where everyone expects or is accustomed to us submitting to their needs. It’s more like making sure that our needs are part of the ambient stew,and they are recognized and considered in decision-making processes.
In interpersonal relationships, we’re not trying to be selfish, as much as making sure that what happens is good for us, as well as everyone else. (And we’re the arbiters of that, not someone who imagines it’s their role to tell us what’s good for us.) In our private lives, the way we deal with ourselves, it’s about getting clear about how we want our lives to run, to be shaped (in terms of focus and effort) and how we want things to come out for us.
It can feel like putting ourselves first if we’re dealing with people who don’t want us to put ourselves anywhere at all, except at their service. (Typical situation in a sociopathic interaction.) Our efforts to make sure that our needs are considered can draw a lot of flack from these people. And we just have to be very firm about getting information and commitments about how our needs and wants will be taken care of, if we help them pursue their grand schemes.
In my professional world, which is public relations and marketing, that means that I negotiate for fair payment, for written testimonials if I do a good job, and I ask for referrals when I need more work. In my personal life, it means that I ask for what I want or need, and speak up about it when my feelings are triggered because something doesn’t meet my needs.
As I said, it can create some tension with people who, for whatever reason have problems with other people’s assertion of power over their own lives, but this is the way we graduate from being doormats to people who are respected and whose contributions bring good back to us. These are our lives. We are responsible for them. And if we don’t act like we care about what happens to us, we are showing people how we expect to be treated.
Finally, if acting as though our needs are as important as anyone else’s draws personal attacks or any kind of violence or abuse toward us, it is a clear message that we are not in a safe place. There are a lot of levels of “safety.” If we are clear in this way with our mothers, and they say, “Well, you always were the selfish one,” this is a personal attack. Arguing with this sort of thing is a form of condoning it. It makes more sense to point it out as a personal attack, and say that we are willing to discuss what she wants and needs, if she wants to share that information, but unless she can keep her unsolicited opinions to herself, this conversation is over. (Whew. But yes, we can do this.)
Big safety issues come up in situation when our assumptions that we are entitled to discuss our needs and wants draws more violent responses. And they will in physically abusive relationships. In verbally or emotionally abusive relationships, they will draw whatever techniques the other person uses to keep us submissive. The point here is not to endanger ourselves. We don’t need to fight with people we already know are invested in separating us from our legitimate needs.
What emotional freedom can do for us — and even toying with the idea privately in our minds without saying anything about it — is clarify what’s really going on here. That it is impossible for us to be whole human beings in this environment, and to motivate us to get out of it.
In truth, we can be whole human beings in any environment. There are many stories of people maintaining their power over their own values, and acting with clarity and compassion even toward their persecutors, while they were in unspeakably inhumane circumstances. But most of us have the power to give ourselves much better lives, and emotional freedom enables us to make those choices.
Namaste.
Kathy
Kathy, Wow I’m thinking about posting your words all around my house just as I have bible verses posted on my bathroom mirror! I’m gonna really need to focus on this thread.
I think so many of us are needing to get out of our comfort zone of “keeping the peace at ALL costs.” As Kathy pointed out there IS a deep cost involved. We are negating our own emotional needs ,and sanity in alot of cases. It comes down to the fact that our actions (thru not standing up for ourselves) shows that we love the abuser more than we love ourselves. Very sad.
This causes strife and conflict internally- we are upset and tend to blame ourselves that no one has spoke up for our needs, and are angry that we aren’t being courageous or strong enough to defend those needs. So in a way we are getting abused two- fold ,by our wishes being dismissed/ignored by the other person ,and our part of not attending to our needs or standing up for ourselves. I think focusing on being good caretakers for ourselves is needed. We know and have been conditioned to take care of others, so when do we finally get the benefits of it?
take care, xoxo
Kathy…I haven’t read it yet. I will, and it probably has a lot of stuff I’ll need…is there anyplace safe out there when we’re not on Lovefraud…LOL…I’ll be back!
Jim, there are safe places, in the sense of good, mature people to deal with. And organizations that are shaped by good, mature principles.
But you know, anything that is successful or rich is going to attract sociopaths. We talk about the fact that sociopaths cut the weak and the sick out of the herd. That’s not all they do. They infiltrate healthy organizations, usually through someone who has unresolved trauma issues, and they are like deer in the garden. Gobble, gobble. Someone (Elizabeth, was that you?) recently posted an excellent article on narcissists in the workplace. These people are about nothing but their overblown needs masking their empty centers.
But fortunately, as many of us are discovering, the combination of getting emotionally free and having the gut knowledge of how these people operate, can add up to early alert systems and the ability to be fearless and clever in getting rid of them. (If it were them, we’d call it Machiavellian. If it’s us, we call it ErinBrockovickian. The difference is that we are capable of pitying them as cripples, as we boot their sorry and dangerous a**es out.)
This is only my opinion, and I think it requires a certain temperament or possibly a level of healing — I’m not sure which — to view environmental clean-up as part of our life work. We start by keeping them out of our lives. But an extension of that is making life difficult for cruising sharks.
I’m not saying that everyon is going to be interested in that activity. But I think that ultimately it’s going to be part of the resolution for some of us. We can’t do if we’re still shaky, I think. But there’s a difference between living in fear and having a healthy respect for the damage they can do. I’m going to be afraid if an N/S/P has me backed into the corner, because the fact that I’m a feeling person puts me at a disadvantage in close quarters. But until the situation becomes that extreme, I’ve got the advantage. Because I can use social systems, because I’ve got more depth of character to call on (and therefore more flexibility), and because they’re so predictable.
If they were literally sharks, and we were dolphins, dolphins are known for attacking sharks that try to hunt in their pods. They don’t create vigilante squads. They just do it on an ad lib basis when the need arises. I like their style.
Thanks for the links!
You’re welcome!
If you like them, there are some excellent CD sets by Marshall on Amazon. (Much better than the books, I think.) And weekend intro trainings you can find through the website. They will bend your mind, but you’ll come out of them knowing things you never imagined about yourself, as well as how to understand other people in new ways.
Kathy,
This article is incredible (though I could honestly say that about all you have written….I love your brain and heart!).
One thing that struck me was your example of expressing needs to the S, and the effect it has on clarifying the situation, and basically putting a complete stop to it.
I have done this so many times…..in my mind!
I cannot tell you how many imagined conversations I have had where I simply state my needs and then stick by them and the N/S/P’s are revealed, and then gone in a poof.
I believe, as you alluded, that this kind of self-loving and peaceable truth-telling is powerful enough to expose those who CANNOT meet us in a place of cooperation and love.
I can see it so clearly, and try not to kick myself for not having been able to do it very well with the S (understanding as I do now that I was acting on learned compulsions and fears). In my mind every one of these conversations where I speak the truth of who I am and what I need exposes them in a second and they vanish.
I have practiced NVC with friends and had really sweet results. Making us closer and more intimate friends. And recently practiced with someone a bit more challenging, but not personality disordered, or malignant, and it was effective in creating a boundary, and a distance between us. One that I feel more comfortable with. It is interesting that it can have both effects. With those that are open and interested in cooperative interaction and mutuality it is SO wonderful and connecting.
And with those that fall elsewhere on that continuum it can create tension, but still clarity. Like in my case, some disconnection and distance, which is just as well. In either case it comes from a place of love…..of self to begin, and to others, if they can receive it.
Namaste. May we all discover and honor our needs.
slimone, thanks for your post. It’s nice to find another student of NVC here.
Your report of how it works with people is similar to my experience. Some people really love the empathy. And I guess it’s easier for people to trust that our empathy is genuine when they’re our close friends. It’s so cool to see other people figure out what’s really going on with them, and see the emotional force simply evaporate in the insight. (Cool when we’re discovering these things about ourselves too.)
About it creating boundaries and distance, I’ve had the same experience. Sometimes it just really clarifies whether or not people want to be that honest. (We get spoiled with all the emotional openness here on LoveFraud and in NVC trainings. Going out into the everyday world where people throw up all kinds of walls and smokescreens as a matter of course is kind of a shock.)
But with sociopaths, it kind of takes that out to the n-th degree. I’ve mentioned before that my S once wrote me, “I suppose you’re better than me because you are so articulate about your feelings.” It was such a strange comment. But when he did occasionally open up about how he really felt, it was pretty grim. Resentful, aggrieved, isolated, desperately afraid of making the wrong move. Can you imagine, looking at the list of human needs, what was really behind all that? I think that admitting their real needs would crack those exo-personalities into a million pieces.It would never happen.
But just saying “I want,” getting our desires out in the air, so that the negotiations become about real things — not about our attempts to be the perfect partner so they’ll come to the “inescapable” conclusion that we’re worth loving — changes the dynamic in startling ways. We get clearer about our own definitions of a good relationship. Their responses make it clearer about whether they care what we want. It can serve as a kind of ejection seat out of the vagueness of denial and wishful thinking.
I understand why this is so hard to do. It changes our relationship to them. Instead of being “perfect” and unselfishly committed to their needs, it makes us separate human beings with our own ideas, needs and wants. And this is something that I think we’ve been brutally trained not to show anyone else, if we’ve come from backgrounds of abuse. It takes tremendous courage to take that position, not least because we expect to be rejected or punished.
And I think it’s why a lot of us — me included — have to take a break from relationships while we do this work of learning to believe that we not only can be, but actually want to be responsible for our own happiness. It means we have to rethink everything about how we relate to other people. And it raises a huge new question about what a good relationship actually is.
And then, of course, when we go back out into the world, we have to learn all over again how to relate. Through trial and error. Through figuring how what feels good and authentic to us. Through getting surprised by the fact that there are a lot of people who actually like us and respond to us, when we’re not worried about how they feel or how we look to them. This is undoing and redoing ourselves as social beings and it’s a big deal.
But as a friend of mine, who is going through the difficult process of discovering that most of her existing friendships are not going to survive her personal growth, said to me yesterday, “I just can’t go back. I could have these relationships, if I were willing to be who I used to be. But I can’t go back.”
Kathy, I read the article but not the comments yet. I’m off to work today. My first day back since my discharge from the hospital. I have been taking time to just take care of me. Surrounding myself with friends and relaxation. I had a wonderful time in WVA. My new guy was truly awesome. No pressures, no drama, no lovebombs. Just steady, predictable, consistent in every way. My needs were anticipated and met without me having to push or fight or beg for acknowledgment. Such a drastic change from life with the Sp ex. Mid week he will come here to meet my family and friends. We weren’t looking for this, and we have yet to define it. We are just enjoying our time together and seeing where the journey takes us. I would not have imagined all those months ago when I first came here devastated and hurt beyond belief that I would ever be found worthy of anything as I had no value. I didn’t deeply believe that, but it had been written on my heart for so long that it did resonate on many levels. Now I’m redefining myself in many ways. Finding who I am and what makes me happy is my new first job. I can finally say, me first and mean it. Not in a selfish way like others don’t matter, but just asserting my importance in the grand scheme of life. Your articles have been timely and integral to my healing. Thank you Kathy for sharing your gift and your journey with all of us. I will keep you posted on my progress, and you are all in my thoughts more often than you know. Peace and progress to all of you. Hugs.
Kathleen,
You wrote…” In the last article on self-love, the concept of respect was introduced. It is connected to self-love, because as we come to love, trust and believe we are entitled to care for ourselves, we develop a sense of separateness. Of boundaries. We come to realize that we have private interests, concerns and needs. They belong to us. They are our responsibility. They are also the sources of good in our lives. And we are entitled to explore them, define them for ourselves, pursue them, and plan our lives around them.”
Realistic and truthful. I completely accept and agree with this paragraph. As I read it, I was nodding my head in the affirmative the whole time.
I seem to be healing in leaps and bounds lately and there are not enough superlatives in the English language to express how awesomely liberating it is to finally be content and comfortable in my own unique skin.
To happily grin at my own cute quirks, idiosyncrasies, my own separate individuality. Yeah, I have flaws. Who doesn’t? But if it’s a flaw in which I consider a hindrance to psychological/spiritual growth, I work on it. If it’s my own imagined, probably mythical flaw, I shrug it off. No sense in obsessing about something that most likely does not exist anyway. Right?
I’m just too darn practical to waste one darn second of my life worrying about not being good enough. I wasted too much time on such erroneous thinking for too many years. No more, I say! I’m so done with that self destructive negativity.
I am diligent in maintaining my realistic optimistic mindset. It is not a trial, but has become effortlessly easy to be me. I like me and think I’m pretty darn cool! (ok, chill out ego, getting a bit carried away there…haha)
I wholeheartedly realize that I would not have been able to heal by myself. I needed the sources from literature written by caring psychologists, therapists, and most assuredly my beloved LoveFraud and all the beautiful peeps who share their experiences with me. And Kathleen’s most excellent essays.
I must always give credit where credit is due, not taking all of it for myself. Yeah, I took the initial step in seeking to educate myself regarding PDIs (positive choice, there) but without you peeps loving, compassionate hands and hugs I would have that priceless knowledge yet I would have been alone in my struggle for enlightenment. Now I’m solidly aware that I have never been alone. And I humbly and respectfully wish to express my sincerest gratitude to each and every one of you.
You’re awesome, phenomenal folks and don’t you dare let one living person tell you different. They are WRONG, so very wrong. I see you. I hear you. You have all touched my heart and mind in such incredible ways that I will always cherish and adore you.
Peace, Love and Joy to all….
Kimberley (aka JaneSmith)
Joy, it is so nice to hear your happy energy. And I’m glad you found something for yourself in the article.
Please take care of yourself. Pace yourself. You’re just out of the hospital. Good stress can be as physically taxing as bad stress.
And please be careful of your heart. I know you’re having fun. But it has absolutely nothing to do with being worthy. You always were and will be. It’s just what you deserve.
Namaste, sweetie.
Kathy
Oh my goodness, this must be the happy thread today.
I get a thrill from hearing where you are with yourself.
Do you remember that thing we did as kids, standing inside a doorframe with our hands down at our sides, then pushing hard against the frame with the backs of our hands for a few minutes? When we stepped out of the doorframe, our arms would rise all by themselves, like wings?
My first experiences feeling like this — experiencing myself with love and acceptance, without all the nattering negativity — reminded me of that. Or maybe falling in love. Effervescent. Zingy.
And isn’t it cool how this love makes us humble and grateful? Your words just went right to my heart. Because I feel like that so often here. My heart just blows open. We are so lucky to have each other.
Thank you so much for posting. It doesn’t seem like many people are reading this one, but the responses have just been amazing.
Namaste, Kimberly. May what you’ve got be contagious.
Kathy
JaneSmith,
Wow! I got big ole’ happy tears reading your post. I am not where you are, but not so far away that I don’t feel it, and recognize the wonder of the distance you have come. Thank-you for the ‘long view’ of healing, and I look forward to getting to a place where I find more ease in my self-loving.
lyj Joy,
Another possible love blooming here on the pages of Lovefraud. Matt too. So happy for your excitement and for asserting your lovely importance into the grand scheme. I get so lost in all the posts here, I have a hard time keeping track of people’s comings and goings (I have thought of a LF journal, so I can remember each person….). But I understand you have been hospitalized, and I am glad that you are out, and well…..and following a bit of bliss. Take good care.
Let us all learn to assert ourselves, properly, into this grand wonder!
So I hate to hijack the happy thread, I haven’t read anything in this thread yet, just glanced over it. For some reason I am having an especially hard day today. After several days of hardly thinking about the S I feel right now like I need a straight jacket to keep me from calling him!
It’s been two months now NC and that is the longest ever, it’s been much easier than I expected it to be. But I had a dream about him last night and all day I can’t get him out of my head. Then I went out with a friend and was reminded of him by where we went out, and I almost called him on my drive home. I don’t know what I am thinking I hate him and I know he is no good, but I’m feeling almost compelled to call him. WTF is wrong with me!!!!! So here I am, typing instead of texting. Please send me some willpower vibes and common sense!
I’ve been there, and caved! Don’t!!! It just will make you feel worse. BELIEVE ME. I think part of it is grief….the loss of the dream. When someone dies, we will forget and start to reach for the phone to call them and then it hits us….oh yeah, they are dead, I will never see them again. And it hurts. But who you thought he was is not who he was. It was a mask, a lie. Stay strong. For me, I know I had the betrayal bond thing going on, where we are addicted to something very bad for us. Start writing a list of every horrible thing he ever did to you. Read it over and over. Let anger replace longing. Let self-respect replace longing. You are in your integrity now. The shame and blame belong to him. You are an awesome person, you really are. We all are!
Dear done,
I’m not instantly on line with you, but I second what JAH said, do not call him, come here and type and scream and pound your keyboard but DO NOT CALL HIM—it is like an “addiction”and if you hang on, the craving will pass.
Walk, take la bath, jump rope, pet your dog, cuddle your pillow, read a book, sing a song, cuss and scream, but DON’T CALL HIM. ((((((HUGS))))))
Hello Done!
Ditto, ditto, ditto. DO NOT CALL OR CONTACT IN ANYWAY. You will be made to feel like total shit, and you will be more confused and angry than you are now. I absolutely know this for certain.
I understand your longing for him to be alchemically changed from old piss to a bottle of Dom. But he is just getting more rank as the minutes fly by, and old piss is toxic to anyone, not just you.
JAH is SO right. The shame and blame belong squarely on him….BUT contact and nice words WILL NOT solicit his remorse and tenderness. He has neither of these feelings in his toolbox. He only has anger, envy, resentment, fear, hate, disdain, disgust, and vengence brewing in him. And if you give him even the smallest window of opportunity he will inject you with some of these feelings.
Two months really isn’t long. I know I fought these feelings terribly. But I didn’t give in and I am SO glad I didn’t. You will be too. It is one of the ways you can begin and continue to maintain your sense of dignity and self-love.
Take good care of your heart…..
Thank you thank you, all of you, especially Oxy,just about healed, slomone. I havent weakened and called my daughter, whose 45th Birthday was on the 6th. I know you are all right, I know she will only try to “gaslight” me one more time,that Ill probably end up apologising to HER! {For what?} they get your thinking so screwed.Inow know that Nss are not normal, they are emotionally flat, they have no conscience, no feelings of remorse. Ill only end up with an “explanation” as to why she is so ill done by, and misunderstood. I have to stay strong for the sake of my sanity and my bank balance! My darling adopted adult “kids”, Roya and Abbas, are coming here to celebrate their first wedding anniversary with us this coming sunday.They are only 23 and 24, so young, full of life, faith and hope! they kiss and embrace us, and call us Mama and daddy. They are as desperate for a real family as we are.
From now on, I intend to give my love and affection to people like them, who truly appreciate us, not waste it on selfish ingrates who care less about our lives.Onwards and upwards,! Life is good, after all! Time to take care of me, get healed, and move on. We leave for our holiday in S. Africa on Monday the 13th. We will have a great time,looking forward to it! Love and light to all you great guys!!geminigirl
Thank you all for your support. I have not called although I did google him and search him on Twitter =( I know if I call I will hate myself bc even though these last two months have been hard they were also filled with a sense of relief that I hadn’t felt in years. It’s so frustrating bc just when I felt I was making progress all these feelings came back full force today seemingly out of nowhere. Just bc of a stupid dream? UHG. I am just so sick of missing him, I’m scared today bc since NC I hadn’t really wanted to call him until today, I felt almost certain that I would end up calling. That’s how it used to be before, I would know something was wrong and that I shouldn’t want to call/be with him, but I felt COMPELLED to be with him against my better judgement. I used to tell myself, ‘don’t do this’ as I was driving to his house. It scares me that the ‘out of control’ feeling is creeping back today.
I was thinking of calling and asking for the money for the stupid U2 tix he promised to pay for, or for the mattress his drunk friend ruined on his last night over. Who am I kidding, he would never pay me anyway and I thought I’d already decided I’d be better off paying for it myself than trying to squeeze water from a stone. Insanity tonight I guess.
Thus far I’ve kept control (at least the NC part) so hopefully I will feel better in the morning and the urges will pass. Until then I pre-apologize for any excessive posting that might happen tonight.
Slimone, thank you for reminding me he is old piss in a jar.
JAH, if I start that list tonight I will never sleep bc it would take me the rest of my life to finish it.
OxDrover-those hugs are what I needed thank you!
Done, did you ever read here that that when we fall in love with these people, we’re really falling in love with ourselves? In the seduction phase, they are mirroring our dreams, our values, our ideas about what is good and true and beautiful.
We tell each other that none of this is real, because it’s not real in them. It’s just a false front. But it is real in us.
So maybe when you have these attacks of longing, it might be helpful to find a mirror somewhere and remind yourself that these are your dreams, not his. Your capacity to love, not his. You ability to provide comfort and warmth, not his. Your strength and purpose, not his.
And then go do whatever you do to comfort yourself. Take a bath. Or wrap yourself up in a cozy blanket on the sofa with a cup of tea, and think about all the good things you are. And how you truly deserve more than this lie masquerading as a person.
Because that’s what’s real. He was just an empty shell with a vacuum cleaner mouth. Shiny like mirrored sunglasses so that what you thought was the best in him was just a reflection of you. That’s the truth. And you deserve all the love and comfort for yourself.
Namaste, Done. I like your name. It’s something like Perfect.
Kathy
Done:
Your blogger name is “Done”, so please BE DONE WITH HIM!!
I have been where you are, and I also caved so many times. This is not the path you want to take.
This is the road to misery, heartache, and a never-ending cycle of abuse.
To call him after being in NC for 2 months (longest ever!!) is like ripping the stitches on a deep wound that has just begun to heal.
I understand your “addiction”. It will pass if you stay in No Contact. Consider this place your “rehab center”. OK?
Slimone,
Just re-read your post, and you really hit the nail on the head with that list of emotions the S harbors (anger, envy, resentment, fear, hate, disdain, disgust, and vengence) that describes him perfectly, one more I would ad would be ‘blame’. Every time I re-read your list I can see his face clearly expressing each one of these in my mind.
And Gemini, I just saw your post and thank you for reminding me of the gaslighting. I’m sure if I were to cave tonight and call I would somehow end up apologizing for God knows what. I’d probably end up apologizing to him for him cheating on me. What a despicable beings these ppl are!
Thank God for this place.
Rosa,
Thank you, I feel like you are holding me accountable. I would hate to not live up to my screen name =) And this is my rehab, I am really so thankful for all of you being here.
Kathleen,
That mirroring does sound familiar. I love the sunglasses analogy and thinking back he did mirror me. I remember him ‘sharing’ my beliefs, but then I’d see him with someone who didn’t share my morals and he’d be ‘sharing’ their perspective. He told me he could never be with (the woman he left me for) bc they didn’t share the same belief system. I bet he just told me that bc he knew I thought she was crazy and I bet he tells her that he believes all her psychic ways. For some reason I always thought he really did share my beliefs, even when I would see him acting in ways that would be inconstant with someone who actually kept the same values as me. Not sure if I never saw this before or if I just forgot about it, it seems so obvious now I can’t believe it never crossed my mind. I probably just shoved it aside with all the rest of the red flags.
Done,
So good to hear you have not called. You sound so nice and smart and aware……Kathy is right you know, they do mimick our qualities and we fall in love with our own selves in the initial phase. That is SO what we want all the time. To be ‘in love’ with ourselves.
Imagine. Anything you ‘thought’ you loved about the old piss, was REALLY you loving what he imitated by watching you. I bet you are lots of wonderful things!
And any lying, cheating, manipulating, stealing, hurting, and gaslighting you can place back behind those mirrored sunglasses he wore!
“…when we fall in love with these people, we are really falling in love with ourselves.”
I must REALLY love myself, because it took me almost 10 years to get rid of the asshole.
Maybe I should move this over to the “self-love” thread and get some therapy for myself.
Rosa,
You crack me up!
IN THE BEGINNING!
The rest is pure torture, as you know.
Slimone:
Oh, that’s right. I forgot.
Still, close to 10 years down the drain with the asshole.
A lot of people on this site want their money back, or whatever they lost in their ordeal.
I WANT MY TIME BACK!!!!
Rose,
May I ditto you on that!!!
17 YEARS AND I WANT MY TIME BACK!!!!!
I am new here so thank you all for the wisdom, this is to Done… and any one else with advice…. Its only been 6 days and we have a 12 year old son, who thinks his life is turned upside down now.. How I try to explain to him , Dad is not the same person to me that he is to you, how can I make him see this?
Im done, Done…. he wants his “stuff” but he has no place to keep it, I have to have contact with him until his “stuff” is gone, then again we have a child together…. I wonder why he cant understand why his name was not on the birth certificate, because he was with his next victim he left 3 days before… and I guess in a way its a blessing for me… he has no rights unless he goes to court, which he is a coward and has been in trouble before .. anyway Im rambaling… I just wanted to say… Thanks for all the comments and wisdom it helps a new person like me make sense…. We were seperated until my father died 3 years ago, it was my mistake that I called the jerk thought he could give me the support I needed not drain my spirit and soul… and turn me into a shell of a person…. Then my mother died… my family is mostly gone…nephews, brother sister I dont get along with… this is support that I need, I wake up crying and wonder why, how could I not see I have known him since I was a teenager. I will be 40 next week, Oh according to him I will be an overweight single mother and 40 who will want me ? I want me ! I like me! I know me! Thanks again
Rosa, James,
I want my 23 years on and off back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now must not be a good time for me to quit smoking and take yoga is it?
Well…I finally read it, Kathleen. Too bad it couldn’t have been written and read by me a year ago. I could have used the “what I want/what you want skills” then…but I can still use them everyday now…next time…and in every situation. Better late then never.
Rosa (funny and to the point as always) and James…yes, I’d like the time back, but with what I’ve learned over the years. But looking back, I look at what I didn’t know, overlooked, tolerated, and how I sabotaged myself, too.
So I take out the good (and there was a lot), let time heal the bad, look at myself…what I want, what’s fair, and what I need to do to get where I should be…for me…and anyone I find who agrees to go there with me…for them.
I still have a lot to do. And I have a new day to do it in.
It could have been worse. We’re survivors, by the virtue of the fact we’re here, have found each other, and we have a lot more help and good advice to work with…and a chance to really celebrate on the next Independence Day.
Thanks again, everybody…Lovefraud IS WORKING FOR ME!
Jim
Spirit40…LOL…I’m still actively smoking and not taking yoga. Quitting smoking is on my list. Yoga might have been there, but slipped off the page. “The List” is long…I’ve got to check off some of the really big items I’ve been NOT DOING at the top, then maybe it can get back on….
One step at a time, baby steps to start…again. Don’t rinse/repeat Jim!
The email bull s–t has begun
I cant take it anymore, i miss my family so much it hurts. i
spend alot of time alone here cryinig, thinking about alll the crap io
have done over the years ans it makes me sick to think that i always
took you for granted.
I dont know if this matters but i am going to councling by myself,
i also think that you and i should go as well as allltogether as a
family. i know thats not an instant solution butr i am willing to do
what ever it takes. i plan on going to meetings here to try and get my
sobriety back on track, but i am already doing much much better. i am
out of the woods physcally and i should be able to get a temp job at
the home depot down the street (fingers crossed). I love you and d
and our little place and the dog and everything (cept the bugs), but
that is an easy fix. now that io am sober again, i just wish you would
give it some thought. i promise you if i ever take a drink in that
house you can hit me with a bat (and keep a copy of this for leagel
reasons).
Anyway, iall i want to say is that i miss you waaay more then you
would thikn by the way we talk on the phone, just please dont do
anything drastic (like move in the next three days) and then i hope we
can at least for a minute or two, have a reasonable takeyou can do
what you want with the jeep (although i think you know that would
really really bum me out plus be dangerous for the fam), also as an
asided i am going to assume that you got the check from daddy and
managed to cash it without probs.if you give me a chance i will not
even take keys to the house, i will stay out all day everyday untill i
fdind one. i love you so much and i am sorry that we getin the
arguments that we do. please forgive me for my drunkness.
—
The best thing about me is you.
Spirit40:
Welcome to the overweight, 40 something, ugly and single parent club….shall we add ass as big as a house or just leave it as a cow that NO ONE would/could ever want!
Once again…..he’s wrong…..another projection……oh the inner shame and guilt they hold! It’s so ugly when it oozes out of them in this fashion….I remember mine saying he same thing. Oh, of course, this was after he said a few days earlier that he would love me at any weight…..
I’m glad to see your not buying into that……it makes you love you more when he says stupid crapioli like this……You come to a point when it very obviously a huge attempt at digging to manipulate and control you hitting the self esteem button.
OMG….you sound as if you have a pretty good handle on what you need to do.
Sounds as if you have been grieving for years and know its time….or well beyond time to take care of YOU!
I’m proud of you for that.
They attack our self esteem…..I have said many times….I should be ‘fetal in the corner’…..BUT, I”M NOT!!!!!! Far from it!
Not saying it’s easy…..oh quite contrair……but well worth getting away from the crazymaking eggshell dinners they serve up.
I too was with my ex S since young teens…..I too an early 40…..
Boy….all the promises, promises, promises…..yada, yada, yackydydackidy, blah, blah, blah….. This should be a sociopaths song…..give it a good beat and we might be on to something!
Oh…..how many times have you heard the same thing over and over through the years.
But….you know what’s going to happen if you buy into his guilt trip….youve lived it already!
I got rid of mine and the blubbering by challenging him on making good on the promises…..although I already knew and had lost hope it would ever come to fruition….at least it kept him away…..I wanted reports….he couldn’t provide. He did go see a Psychologist 3 times…..ooooohhhh! The psych called ME asking to come in….all S would do in the sessions is try and illicit info about the counselors private life! Counselor knew nothing of the S….after 3 visits…..no worries….they won’t even if they made it to 1000 visits!
I like how you phrase the post about the email…..this shows great strength on your part!
EMAIL BULLSHIT STARTS……some of us would fall for all those fantasy promises….because this is all we ever wanted.
It sounds as if you may have fallen for the promises ONCE to many times. And he’s not able to ‘show me the money’…..
Welcome, and your off to a great start girl!!!!!
Stay strong and stay in control of YOU!
XXOO
Dear Erin, Thank you so much! if I wasnt crying so much I could type a nice note back! well I will ball and type and get all wet… who cares . I want to move, I saw this cute house for rent, and I am seriously considering it cept its in the worst neighboorhood assured that its a business section so not too many people no traffic area but the house is sooo cute I just want to start over ! My mind is saying dont run away stay here and stick it out but the reminders of him and he knows where we are! The only good thing are the neighbors who I could probably get support from here… I guess I just made my choice instead of moving into a horrible neighborhood/ but cute house ,I should stay around here for if I need witness’s they are around! Thank you for all your kind words and support I really needed it !
My response to his BS email :
I think your last email was total bullshit and I do not believe for a second that you can or will change. Its the way your programmed since you were a child. The things you have told me, they way you were raised, abused, unloved….
I will not accept your lies. I do not forgive you for targeting me . You saw a good hearted loving caring person and turned her into a shell of a person, by manipulating my love for you to your advantage/s.
I will not let you abuse myself or my child.
I will not let you back into my heart that bridge has burned down.
I do not think there is help for someone like you . Maybe years of therapy …
I can recall all of the horrible things you have done and said to me and that is my strength and hope and courage. You will not do it to me ever again.
I kept taking you back, I called you because I thought I could trust you, I thought you were capable of love and being loved. But you have no true real emotions… Its all a game to you, and you have told me this yourself.
You know its a game, a game you think you can win but not this time. My eyes are open! wide open and Im not getting into it with you.
I am working on myself. You should do the same, I am not letting you move in , I am not going to counseling with you. And if and when you see David it will be supervised/mediated and trust me if that happens you wont be manipulating, and gaslighting me. Look that one up! Your not going to blame me for your horrible behaviors.
I do not forgive you. I do not beleive your empty promises are just more lies to try and sucker me back. You dont want me you want a sucker which I am not anymore! Go play your game on someone else, it wont work here.
-Do you not know I am a woman? when I think I must speak.
William Shakespeare
An email from his sister… when I told her I kicked him out…
Hi L
I don’t know what to say. I’m sure living with him is not fun and I am sorry.
I do wish you the best. I do hope he is able to see son and I
know he loves him very much.
Well, take care. J
WTF, he still has his family fooled, shouldnt they know who he is? Oh thats right he is an ALCOHOLIC
I need to stop focusing on this so much I have two weeks left of my 8 week ACE accelerated BLS (Bach lib Science) two final presentations and cant focus at all on any of my assignments…. I know what I need to do I just keep procratinating…ugghhhhhh
Spirit40,
Well, the timing is hard, but you did it. Congratulations on throwing him out and on the letter.
Now the challenge is to keep him out of your life, while you get your presentations done. And if you can’t focus, and can’t feel safe, is there any way you can get your work postponed for a family emergency?
If not, maybe it will help if you work out of the house. At the library, perhaps. There may be fewer triggers there, and you may feel less vulnerable.
If your son doesn’t understand what’s going on, you may have to have a few family counseling sessions with him. He needs to know that you were not safe, and he needs to hear it in a way that doesn’t make any of it his fault. At minimum, he is a child of an alcoholic and probably way too tolerant of abusive behavior. If he’s witnessed his father physically abusing you, there may be other issues.
For you, it might help to sit down and make a list of things you need to do. It will help keep your mind from flying around. The reality is that you did one thing. Just one thing. You put this man out of the house. All the previous drama and the feelings you have about it make it seem bigger and more complicated than that. And alcoholics and sociopaths both are masters at creating drama. But right now, the main thing is that he was there and now he’s not.
You’re going to have some healing to do, but right now, you need to keep your head together. We’ve been talking about posting messages to ourselves around the house. You might consider posting “No chaos. No drama.” messages.
Your response to his message was good, but I’d suggest one more piece of information to give him, before you shut down communications. And that is, that he is not getting well on your time. If and when he has established a history of sobriety, when his life is a model of personal responsibility, and when his behavior indicates that he is prepared to make amends and earn his way back to a position of trust, he can reach out to you. Until then, he needs to work on himself and you want no contact with him.
Find someone who can stand between the two of you as a contact point, so that he can take care of any business with you. Like getting his stuff. If possible, arrange for a third party to collect whatever is his. Or if you can afford it, rent a storage unit for a couple of months, move his stuff there and leave the key for him at the storage unit office. Then wash your hands of it.
Other things to put on the list are financial things that you need to decouple, if there are any. If you have shared accounts, close them.
If you want to move, put that on the list as something you can do later. But you know already that a cute house in a bad neighborhood with no neighbors around is not the right answer.
Make a separate list of what you need or want to do for yourself. What you couldn’t do because he was taking up so much of your time and head space. Like yoga, like quitting smoking. Stuff you’ll get around to, when you can.
Making the lists will make you feel better. Because you’ll be focusing on you, not him.
You know, he doesn’t have to be a sociopath for you to decide that you don’t want to live with him anymore. I’m not saying that he isn’t. But I’m trying to put this into perspective for you. You made a decision for yourself. This relationship isn’t working, and you’re moving on.
The rest of it, the drama and annoyance you’re expecting, you’ll deal with it when it happens. And one of the things to put on your to-do list is a stop at the local police station to let them know about the previous abuse, and your concerns that he may show up drunk and violent. Just to alert them. And to prepare for an order of no contact, if you need one.
Finally, as other people have said, you know logically nothing he says about you is real. It is all manipulative, in terms of trying to get you do submit to what he wants. Or it’s projections of his miserable mind. Abusers and addicts think in terms of what is going to get them what they want. The fact that they can be “nice” sometimes doesn’t change that.
We tend to look at their bad behavior and think “they’re not really like that.” And give more weight to the good behavior. It doesn’t matter what they’re “really like.” What matters is that they are capable of abusing us, and that they will do it.
Take care of yourself. First take care of your mind — quieting your emotions so that you can focus on what’s important — and then take care of yourself physically. If you really don’t feel safe there but feel you can’t move, consider moving a friend in for a couple of weeks. Or alerting your neighbors. One more thing to put on your list.
Our hearts are with you. The good news is that you’ve taken action. I know you feel emotional now, but the reality is that you’ve just taking your life back.
Kathy
spirit40:
When I read your S’s email I was struck by how similar it was to emails my S would send me. Whether you realize it or not, it contains all the tactics used by sociopaths to manipulate their victims.
First, the pure pity play — I miss my family so much it hurts, yada, yada, yada. Mine would always run this when he knew I was at the end of my rope with his antics. The pity play always leads to…
Second, the “you’re right – I need therapy, AA, whatever” stop is pulled out when they know they’ve exhausted our infinite patience and now know they have to throw us a psychological bone to get us back by telling us just what we want to hear. I always got the “you’re right. I’ve been running from my problems. I”m going to call one of the therapists whose names you got me. They are going to call nobody. They are perfectly happy with themselves. You are the problem. Which leads to…
Third is what I call the “turn back” — don’t YOU do anything that I feel is dangerous for the family. Read this closely. This is where a S starts reasserting his control. And the “turn back” always leads to the…
Fourth is the “I’m still not going to make any changes in my life” — I’m going to get a TEMP job, the I’m still drinking, etc. And oh, yes — I expect you to accomodate me by continuing to support my antics, support me (because I will be quitting this shitty temp job as soon as you are back in the fold) and go right on doing whatever the hell I feel like. And now that S has laid out all HIS terms, this leads to…
Fifth — the contact from his dupes. In your case the letter from his sister — classic getting others to do his dirty work.
I agree with Kathy’s advice. Also, I want to add that his timing the most recent donnybrook doesn’t surprise me. You are facing your final 2 exams to get your BS. If you successfully complete your program this is a direct threat to his control over you and he is going into overdrive to make you fail.
Make no mistake, your success is a direct threat to your S. I can guarantee it. You will be getting a job where you make real money. YOu will be working with a group of educated people who (in his pathetic little mind) will outshine him and thus lessen his control. If his control lessens, you will start to realize that you don’t need to put up with his bullshit. And when you realize that, his days on the gravy train (aka your paycheck) are over.
So, you have to shut out all his nonsense and finish your BS. Hell or high water. If you need to take a study break every hour or two, then shove some of his crap into a bag or a box for ultimate removal. But, you have got to operate in S mode now — pure survival, all about you.
Thank you Matt, I got goose bumps! Your right! and I am grateful for the support I am receiving here… I was looking into PODS but no way am I dishing out any cash for it. I could just get a huge box and mail everything but his precious bike that he built. Of course he wants his computer and all his “private” data …. anyhow I know I need to stop procrastinating its soo hard ! Thanks for the solid advice and support. Survival mode
Kathleen Hawk
The post you wrote Done on Tuesday night hit home for me too. I need to take the focus off him and put it on me. I was the kind, caring, loving person, not him. He took my good qualities and used them for his own sick games. I promised myself that I’m going to stop feeling bad when I think of the way he treated and used me and instead focus on what I want in my life.
Astrology… something he told me is stupid… my horoscope for today
You may be in a peculiar state of mind today as you become aware of how isolated you feel, even if you have close family and friends. There are parts of your life that you choose to keep to yourself and your secrecy adds distance between you and others. But you may also be in touch with an inner strength that makes you feel good about the choices you have made. Put your quiet confidence to work by making another difficult decision that you have been postponing.