By | July 6, 2009 56 Comments

BOOK REVIEW: The Betrayal Bond (redux)

In a post written more than two years ago, Dr. Liane Leedom recommended The Betrayal Bond—Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships to Lovefraud readers. In fact, quite a few of you have been discussing the book in your comments. I finally finished the book, and I strongly agree: The Betrayal Bond, by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D., is must reading for anyone who is having difficulty leaving, or recovering from, a relationship with a sociopath. For this reason, it is now available in the Lovefraud Store.

A betrayal bond, Dr. Carnes explains, is a highly addictive attachment to people who have hurt you. He lists 14 signs that a betrayal bond may be present in your life. Some of them are issues that I’ve frequently seen expressed on Lovefraud:

  1. When everyone around you has strong negative reactions, yet you continue covering up, defending or explaining a relationship.
  2. When there is a constant pattern of nonperformance and yet you continue to believe false promises.
  3. When you obsess over showing someone that he or she is wrong about you, your relationship or the person’s treatment of you.
  4. When you move closer to someone you know is destructive to you with the desire of converting them to a non-abuser.
  5. When you find yourself missing a relationship, even to the point of nostalgia and longing, that was so awful it almost destroyed you.

In boldface type—the only time that I saw Dr. Carnes use boldface in the entire book—he wrote, “You will never mend the wound without dealing with the betrayal bond.” He elaborates:

Like gravity, you may defy it for a while, but ultimately it will pull you back. You cannot walk away from it. Time will not heal it. Burying yourself in compulsive and addictive behaviors will bring no relief, just more pain. Being crazy will not make it better. No amount of therapy, long-term or short-term, will help without confronting it.

Then, Dr. Carnes lays out a step-by-step plan for confronting the betrayal bond. He clearly explains how the bonds are formed, and the effects that they have. To help you unravel the damage, the book has a series of exercises, and Dr. Carnes recommends that you keep a journal while reading the book to record your responses to the exercises.

I was struck by a statement that seems to reflect what so many of us here at Lovefraud have found. Dr. Carnes wrote, “My experience with survivors of trauma is that every journey or recovery depends on the survivor coming to a point where all that person has gone through means something.”

This book can help you come to terms with your experience, so that it does mean something.

The Betrayal Bond—Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships

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This was the first book I read that helped me see the need for breaking free. I wasn’t ready at the time to use the tools suggested, but I shelved it, and later when I was ready, I retrieved it and absorbed it a little at a time. As I read it now, it feels so good to know the mission is complete, and the P is not only no longer in my life, but he is no longer in my soul as well. The relief is incredible.
What I enjoyed most about the book was Dr. Carnes vulnerability in sharing his own story, and also the way he outlined the steps to recovery. Many times I knew what I was supposed to do, but didn’t have a clue as to HOW to do it.
The copy in my bookcase is tattered and outlined and worn, but it remains one of my most favorite. I am glad you have copies available. I found mine when I was at the beach and happened to browse through a book store, finding it in a discount section. I refer to it when I want to feel good about the addiction to the P being healed.


Donna, I’m so glad you are carrying this book now. As I’ve said before, my copy is falling apart, but I no longer am, in no small part due to this book. There are exercises in there that I repeat over and over and get new insights from.

I wish he would now come out with a workbook to go with the book. And expand on some of the recovery exercises, add some more. So if you are in contact with him, please suggest that!

My book is highlighted in three colors, underlined, post it notes all over the place, paper clips!!!!!!!!

The ten steps to stay grounded in reality really helped me! Well, actually it is hard to pick out just one thing. I had to outline the book to really understand it, to be able to see it all in my mind without the book.

The description of anger that it opens with is so validating. And the first example shows how a quick incident can be a major trauma, which is so helpful to those of us who tend to minimize.

My favorite sentence from the whole book is “Your whole emotional and intellectual stance toward that person must be different” (referring to the abuser). I have worked very hard to get to that point and I’m there.

Another great sentence is ” Remember, the principal problem trauma victims have is reactivity.”

And in chapter 7, he reassures us that we are right on schedule when we are at the point that we realize how evil the other person is, how they almost killed us….and can’t wait to see them again and melt in their arms. And he shows us how to get past that.

Wonderful book!


And his book has lots of advise for betrayal bonds at work, in religion, with a parent….it is not just about or for romantic relationships.

Ox Drover

I agree, Donna, this book is a MUST READ for every person who has a “trauma bond”——I had “noticed” a long time ago that the people I feel the closest to are those that I have either been there to support THEM trhough some sort of “trauma” or death in the family etc. or the people who have been there for me to support me through it all, rather than feeling as close to people who have been with me through the good times and vice versa.

There is something about the experiencing HIGH STRESS of any kind that I think makes us bond to whomever is in the vacinity at the time we are experiencing it, sort of liike a baby goose responds to and bonds with the FIRST MOVING OBJECT it sees after hatching. I’m not sure about the genetic tendency for this but I think it also accounts for the closeness some combat veterans feel their entire lives to those people who were with them at such-and-such a battle, that common terror and trauma bonds them like super-glue.

This book makes so much sense and was really very very beneficial to me, my copy was bought on used for 1 cent with #3.99 shipping as were many others of the “self help” books I have bought about psychopaths and trauma, so “anyone” can afford it if they look around for a cheap used copy. My copy was in excellent condition when I received it and like the others mentioned, it is now, ragged, underlined, margin noted, high lighted, pages dog-earred and cover coming loose from many many times of reading and re-reading this wonderful and enlightening book.



Concur. This book is required reading for Sociopath 101. It was a Godsend.

You might want to take a look at Dan Neuharth’s “If You Had Controlling Parents.” Like Carnes so clearly lays out the various responses to trauma, Neuharth clearly lays out the kinds of control that can be used. I found the two were good companion pieces and really helped clarify just how my parents put the trauma/betrayal bonds in place.

Ox Drover


I took your earlier suggestion on the “controlling parents” book and I totally AGREE WITH YOU on that one as well, the two books ARE great companion books.

This “healing” stuff is actually an “education” in itself, and learning about US—“socio-path 101” is only I think a VERY SMALL PART of the “healing” curriculum we need to learn about,.


OxDover—-if the healing curriculum is only a very small part of the education itself—that else do you suggest I read?


OxDover—-if the healing curriculum is only a very small part of the education itself—what else do you suggest I read?


The Emotional Rape Syndrome by Michael Fox, PhD really helped me also.

Ditto on Emotional Rape Syndrome (which I’m reading now), plus The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. If I’d found that last book early in my recovery, I would have gotten through it a lot faster.

Ox Drover

Dear Pesel,

I think I have a PhD in the University of Hard Knocks in psychopath—-but unfortunately, I had to take a lot of REMEDIAL classes because I just didn’t “get” the take home lesson—-LOL

Learning about the psychopaths and how to spot them is part of the learning we need to do, but also LEARNING ABOUT OURSELVES and why we in particular let ourselves be abused over and over and continually—-The Love Fraud Store has several of these books, Women who Love Psychopaths is a great one (even if you are a guy) because it tells us what is it that WE HAVE IN COMMON with other victims….just as the Ps have things in common, so do we.

Learning to set boundasries and to quit enabling and lots of other things that I should have learned when I was a kid and didn’t learn….and learning that HEALING IS A JOURNEY, NOT A DESTINATION is another thing. Also learning about the “grief process” (which is the same in any important LOSS situation) etc. so it is a loooooong hard road to self discovery, and self change. But, it is worth it I think, because I am more secure, more content, and happier now than I have ever been and I am P-FREE!!!!!! TOWANDA!!!!


Yes, a lot in common, just like woman who get raped have a lot in common, like body parts. But there are a lot of women with the SAME body parts that don’t get raped.

And women who get raped usually aren’t martial arts experts. They have that in common. Most of them don’t carry fire arms and are not trained in weapons retention. They have that in common. Most of them didn’t have a personal body guard…they had that in common. Most of them weren’t alert to the fact how easily they could become a rape victim. They had that in common. Most of didn’t size up a restroom, a street, a parking lot, their house, their dorm, their street, etc for safety before walking into the space, they had that in common. Most did not have a big dog with them when they got raped, they had that in common.

Some of those are things they may want to change or improve about themselves, some are not.

My point is, one study is useful, it points the way for more research, but I firmly believe almost any nice, trusting person can become a victim. Truly. Is it easier to rape someone who is frail? yes. Is it easier to emotionally rape or victimize someone who is in a needy spot? Yes. But in neither case would there be a problem without a bad guy.

I’m a broken record, but I know at the beginning, ESPECIALLY, I needed to hear over and over and over that I was a target of a bad guy, that I didn’t deserve years of suffering because I didn’t know how to fight off a bad guy.


And then like Oxy (I HOPE) I have learned how to fight them off!

Oxy, I’m amazed it has only been two years for you. It has taken me two years and what I went through was nothing compared to what you went through!


I think I must be the only LF reader who didn’t get much benefit from this book–maybe I should re-read it. As I remember it, I read this one during the “second shock” period, when I found out that the P had not only lied to me about money, bills, impotence, infidelity, etc., but had molested my daughters. Perhaps I was just too addled at the time to digest the contents.

JAH, I agree with your determination to place the blame squarely on the perpetrators. It is too easy for some of us to slip back into self-hatred and self-negation when we take on the perspective of the blamers and the shamers. It’s a tightrope walk, and it’s always good to regain our balance with the help of fellow LFers.

Ox Drover

Guys, this is not, I repeat, NOT ABOUT BLAMING THE VICTIM, the point is that WE have in common that we are CARING PEOPLE, they have in common that they are NOT caring people, we have in common that we are RELIABLE people, they are not, we have in common that we are LOYAL people, and they are not….and so on….

Sure, we should not desire to become UN-caring, but we should learn to BE CAUTIOUS, and just like the woman who walked down a dark street at night, we might want to decide to stay in the street-lit part of town at night instead of go there at night alone. Even if you walked NAKED IN A BAD PART OF TOWN, THOUGH, YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE RAPED, but the flip side is that if you ALLOW abuse from someone, they will repeat that behavior, so we DO need to learn to WATCH for red flags, and we do need to learn to SET BOUNDARIEs and we do need to elarn that if people don’t respect our boundaries WE DON’T NEED THOSE PEOPLE.

We, in some cases, (me for one) need to learn to put ourselves first and to quit trying to FIX someone else who is “broken”—-the only person I can fix is ME.

Tood, sometimes we may read or hear some GREAT INFORMATION and if we are not in the “right stage” of healing to hear it or to soak it in, it will bounce off like water off a duck’s back. I am finding now that I am further along, that some of the books and information that when I first read or heard them didn’t mean a lot, but NOW I see great insight in them. Just like a kid in the first grade might read “War and Peace” and not get much out of it, but later, in high school or college it makes more sense….just being able to read the words doesn’t necessarily make us understand the content, OR it is possible that maybe that book will never have any meaning for you, cause it doesn’t apply to YOU where it might to me.

I think the main thing that we all need to do is to realize that we have to keep on truckin’ and not give up, or think we are “graduated” too soon. I know one of my biggest problems in getting suckered in again is to get “too cocky” and think, I’m “healed” when it should be I AM HEAL-ING. Just like the AA member has to watch out for booze, I have to watch out for getting involved with Ps—one day at a time.


Hi Everyone,

I want to post a ‘question’ that is really just a thinking/talking point for me. And it has especially come up when reading about everyone’s different experiences with the PD’d (personality disordered). And around these discussions about blame and victimization and accountability.

I am wondering if our experiences, our healing and self awakening, and the things we learn about ourselves differs depending on who we are, and where we came from? Some of you are probably thinking, ‘yeah, well, duh!’. Me too. But I am really interested in hearing what any of you might like to say about this. And in sharing my own thoughts–which are totally open to new input!

First, my own history. I have N/P/S individuals in my childhood (molesting grandfather, highly N mom, others). And I have a loooong history of being in short-term relationships with LOTS of these disordered individuals, both love and friendship. In my early 30’s I enjoyed a 13-year relationship with a nice and normal man. As soon as we decided to end it, I went back in for more Crazies. I was SO surprised that I did, as I thought I was ‘over’ crazy relationships. After all I had been in a regular and conventional, nice even, relationship all those years. Thing is I still didn’t know about N/P/S and personality disorders.

I say this because for me this wasn’t a one time thing, that I found myself involved with a Supercreep. It was more like I had a craving and a compulsion for something I didn’t understand, couldn’t identify. It wasn’t cocaine, or booze. It was a particular kind of person, with a kind of energy and pattern that triggered intense feelings and longings in me. It was a repeating attraction. I wasn’t just ‘targeted’, I unconsciously was attracted.

I am not sure any woman is unconsciously attracted to being raped. But I will stick my neck out and say that some women are attracted to physical violence. I also know that there are women who are raped, or brutalized, who have no such historical conditioning. No such attraction, however unconscious. They therefore do not seek out situations that are a ‘reliving’ of their pasts. And I believe those differences, in circumstance, are what differentiate the healing path of each person.

As I repeated my pattern the aftermath got more and more damaging to me. As I got older, wanted something stable, and had more to lose, the loss I felt was devastating. But it felt absolutely compulsive for me. Despite therapy (off and on for 20+years), and lots of self-help books, I still couldn’t connect my past with my relationship present. It wasn’t until this last man, and someone telling me about narcissism, that I started getting it. And at two years no contact AND no relationship, I can honestly write that saying I am ‘clean and sober’ fits how I feel. And so does saying I was taken advantage of by a predator.

But the clean and sober part is resonating more for me. And I think for me this is because of a relationship pattern that springs from my attempt to recreate and resolve the sadness, neglect, and abuse of my early years.

For others I wonder if this may not be so true. That the experience was a more isolated one, that is being dealt with in the here and now, and is less about looking back, and more like recovering from a tsunami, not a 30-year inebriation.

And if it is more a tsunami experience for you, then knowing about tsunamis and knowing when they are coming, how to get to high water, is what is important. In addition to healing the broken bones and emotional trauma of living through the catastrophe.

It is the same for me. I need those things too. But I am, admittedly, like the drunk. I also need to know that I will take another drink if I don’t identify my own attraction to the toxic, and work on untangling my own toxic past and deprogramming myself from the terrible messages of my upbringing. My first tsunami came when I was too little to make sense of it, and it became a kind of twisted fairy tale for me. My wounds healed poorly and crookedly, leaving me walking wounded. In my ‘ongoing’ fairy tale I finally find the one who will protect me, heal me, cherish me, and make everything OK. AND, in my fairy tale this person is ‘just like’ the ones who inflicted the original wounds. So, my strategy does not heal, but instead inflicts more wounding. Tearing open the old losses and heaping new ones atop.

Some of here really didn’t have lots of neglect and trauma in our backgrounds. Our stories and reactions and development are different. So maybe all of us fall to either side of this ‘dividing’ line with compulsion on one side and natural catastrophe on the other?

Either way, we are all here to find what works for us, not to follow someone else’s healing path. So we have MUCH to gain from each other (for which I am Grateful).

In love and discovery……

I started to write this in response to justabouthealed, but then I saw your post. slimone, and it might be a response to that as well.

I was raped too. Over and over for about four years. It was what I went home to from eighth grade through the day I left for college, and my choices were to kill him and ruin my life or run away and live on the street and ruin my life. So I gritted my teeth, learned to disassociate, to shove it into some closet in my mind and pretend everything else was my “real” life until I could graduate from high school and talk some college fare away into letting me go there for no money.

And I didn’t realize until this round of healing, this determination to figure out what was wrong with my life and fix it, how much of my life had been shaped around proving this was not my fault. Some part of me kept thinking that I should have been able to fix it. That I should have been able to figure it out. To say the magic words that would have stopped him, or found a better place to hide, or maybe I should have just found a shotgun somewhere and killed him. Except then, I would have been a murderer. If I’d run away, I would have starved or turned into a street person who lived off her body. But not running away meant that I would have to protect everyone I cared about for the rest of my life from the truth about me.

In reopening those memories, I had to face exactly what you’re talking about. That I really had no choices that would have saved me. And more, that the only reason it happened to me was bad luck. I was run down by the proverbial Mack truck. It was totally out of my control. And the truck drove off, leaving me to bear the damage. And that damage affected more of my life than I can begin to describe.

But in getting over the relationships with the sociopath, I began to think that what happened to me with him, nearly forty years later, might have something to do with all that horrible history. That maybe it had something to do with why I was vulnerable to the sociopath, the reasons I didn’t recognize what was going on, why I tolerated things that I knew at the time were abusive, and why I couldn’t get away. And if it was related, maybe I could do something to change how it was affecting me now.

It wasn’t blaming the victim. It was trying to understand if there was something I could do that would make me more of a survivor, someone who valued her life and resources more than I apparently did, someone who wasn’t so inclined to find a rescuer outside myself, and who was more able to envision, plan and control my life.

There were times when I was frustrated with myself. Times when I beat myself up for being too stupid to live. But the more I looked at what happened with him, the more I saw beliefs the world and about my place in it that originated in that awful time. And I saw how the surrounding circumstances — circumstances in my life that made me want someone like him — also came from all that.

It’s not that a totally balanced, secure and confident person couldn’t have been bamboozled by someone like him. He was attractive, amusing, plausible and clever at finding the areas of need where he could set his hook. All of us have dreams that can be exploited. But I’d seen other woman walk away from him. The difference with me was that, when he started to hurt me, I didn’t react. My tolerance for pain was so high, my need for safety and love so huge and so unmoored from a normal self-protective instinct, that instead of running for my life, I just kept giving more.

Which is why I say that he was the lesson I needed to change my life. He was the worst person I’ve ever been involved with. But the involvement itself followed a pattern that ran through my whole life. Seeing my lovers as the carriers of personal transformation, emotional safety and help with my unmanagable life. Not valuing myself or my life, because I was supposed to be doing better. Being willing to pay so much for validation and security that always came from outside of me.

I don’t assume that anyone else here got into relationships with sociopaths and couldn’t get out for the same reason as me. But it turns out that there are a lot of us who have found reason to look at our own participation in these relationships — not because we were bad or stupid people, but because we were carrying damage that the sociopath could exploit.

I’m reading Emotional Rape, because you recommended it, in relationship to blaming the victim. The author writes that we may come to look at our own roles in these relationships, but only after we’re clear that this was not our fault. We have reason to be angry, and to learn how to identify these people and defend ourselves. That comes first.

In a way, this self-examination is an extension of learning to defend ourselves. But it’s never, ever blaming the victim. It’s about doing some kind of alchemy — lead into gold — that gives this pain meaning in our lives. It changes us from victims if we find a gift in this experience that outweighs the pain and loss that sent us looking for it.

There is no “official” ending place in recovery. There’s no rule that we have to go beyond knowing it wasn’t our fault, getting really angry, and using that anger to take back our power. That’s a lot.

But when we get tired of carrying the damage, or we imagine another life on the other side of anger, or we see that this is still too important to us, it may be reason to start turning our attention toward what we can change in ourselves. We get there when we get there. And there are reasons people never move into this internal work. They live with recurring abuse, and they never have the peace of mind to get past anger. Or they make careers as great warriors. Or they’re just not ready, ever, to deal with old memories that were put away for good reason.

There is no hierarchy of healing, except what makes us happy and peaceful with ourselves. If we see a piece of the recovery path that seems to offer a little more, we may decide to explore it. Or we may be fine where we are. There is no right or wrong of it, only what we want for ourselves now.


That really didn’t respond to you. And yes, I know exactly what you mean.

I had masochistic fantasies all my life. When I talked to therapists about them, they seemed to brush them off as less important than my PSTD issues. Now I understand why, but at the time I would have done anything to get rid of them.

I knew I was on the right path, when those masochistic fantasies lost their power. I saw through them, and they were just one of the ways that I’d tried to relieve the confusion, shame and pain about not being able to escape.

Like you, I realize that I’m an addict. Not to anything in particular, but more to seeking relief when I get too stressed, too overwhelmed, too afraid I’m going to finally terminally mess up and lose everything. I have to keep training myself to look inside me, rather than outside me for solutions. To say, “Okay, Kathy, what have you done to your life, and how are we going to take better care of you.” Releasing the self-judgments. Practicing compassion.

The inside of my head is in pretty good shape, but I’m still learning how to live it.




Yes, I think your response does speak to my ideas and questions regarding individual healing paths. And I think your path is a similar one to mine. So for me I have been able to absorb much, if not all, you have written.

And I think I can say that any of us, whether with more compulsive involvement, or less, can find places in ouselves that need our loving attention and redirection–to avoid future predatorial entanglements, and to generally improve our lives. IMO it is in degrees. My ‘complicity’ however unconscious was of a high degree, and requires much of my attention and understanding. I would guess for others this piece of the work may take a less pronounced role, if they do not have as much of a ‘need’ to recreate and resolve old traumas.

I think it is incredible that each of us can come here, and to other sources of knowledge and healing, and find our own way, to our own healing.

Alone together.


Thanks for reading that book. He writes “They do not recognize that what happened to them was rape (emotional rape); rather they rationalize that is was simply an instance of personal failing. This is a destructive fallacy.” He other words about that elsewhere. I’m way behind in my work, so rushing here.

Are you saying that everyone who didn’t avoid your bad man has healing from their childhood to do? That everyone who avoided him was “chit together”?

I agree with what your wrote above that some of us are carrying damage that the sociopath could exploit. But your second to the last paragraph is where I start saying “wait a minute”…Because not EVERYONE is carrying damage that caused the Bad Man to be able to get to us. Some were just vulnerable…physically sick, or too grief stricken about something else to be thinking straight. There are things that make people vulnerable besides childhood issues.

I think you want honest feedback, because you are trying to make sure you communicate your meaning clearly. So if I tell you where I start getting lost, maybe it is me, but there will probably be some other readers like me when your book comes out, so I hope the feedback is helpful, not hurtful. I’m used to having an editor tear apart my writing (and my writing often IS bad), so I don’t take it personally anymore and I hope you don’t either.

I think you outline a wonderful path for anyone carrying childhood issues of abuse or previous trauma and I thank you for it. You have truly helped me many times.

Another path might be living with a mentally healthy role model for 40 years and you gradually “get” it. You get what integrity is about. You get what REAL love is about. You get what self respect is about. One day your past just simply loses its power to define you today.

LOL!!! Maybe I just have a huge chip on my shoulder that says NO ONE, even someone who is kind and loving and on my side, and who says there is no right or wrong, still raises concerns if they hint at a path to take. I guess I have the part down about not blindly accepting anyone else’s opinion. LOL! So forgive me. Sad part is, if you were a man, I’d probably just be saying how wise you are. Sigh. Actually, I think I’m getting better about that. Not perfect, but better. Sometimes I’m great. Other times, I slip again.

PS…I was a couple of years younger than you the first time I got raped. But it was years before I was attacked again, by someone else. I can’t imagine your pain, but I do understand some of it, and I am just in awe of the woman you are today and your tremendous gift for writing.

Ox Drover

Dear Slimone,

There are those like you described yourself that are “addicted” to the rush of the adreniline, consciously or unconsciously. If you read “Women who love psychopaths” I think that many of us are BRIGHT and ADVENTUREOUS which makes us perfect “targets” for psychopaths.

No bright woman I know of wants to date some guy who is “dumber than a pet rock”—and so we will seek out bright guys, also we will seek out guys who are adventureous or interesting=—–sometimes those same guys are “high risk” for psychopathy as well—-Or, it may be that we are “fixers” and have so much caring and compassion that we want to “help” the poor guy down on his luck, to fix his problems with X, Y or Z.

Or maybe it is because we feel unloveable or undesirable and we know the guy isn’t much, but we don’t feel we deserve any better.

Whatever it is that makes us “vulnerable” to being abused, used, etc. finding out what it is, and working on that aspect of our personalities is I think a great idea.

WHATEVER it is, though, IT IS NOT OKAY FOR ANYONE TO ABUSE US—their behavior is NOT OUR FAULT. The shame belongs to them. But, THEY HAVE NO SHAME.

What Kathy said about “there are reasons people never move into this internal network. They live with recurring abuse and they never have the peace of mind to get past anger.” “They’re just not ready ever to deal with old memories….” Those statements bring to mind my life…there was a time when the REALITY of my life was too painful to contemplate and every time it reared its ugly head I pushed it down.

But one day, I got tired of “pretending it never happened” and “pretending we are a nice normal family” when IT DID HAPPEN, and we are NOT a “nice normal family” we are infested with as many psychopaths as a coon dog has fleas!

My childhood was not the idolic myth I had made up, and my egg donor was more like “mommie dearest’ than the Virgin Mary, and my sperm donor was a monster, and my youngest son was just as bad. But I finally got it through my head that it was NOT my JOB to keep up the FALSE FRONT any more. None of the behavior of these people was my responsibility or my fault, and I was only responsible for myself. I did not have to continue to allow others to use me for a door mat….I came out of the FOG–FEAR, OBLIGATION AND GUILT.

I no longer had to feel guilty or shamed because of my family, I no longer had to feel obligated to take care of them and clean up their messes, and I will be damned before I will live in TERROR of them either. I broke free.

One of the instinctive things about prey animals is that when they are held securely, they will stop struggling. If they would continue to struggle they might actually get away, but this self pacification instinct holds them tight. Dr. Temple Grandlin noticed this and used it to design chutes to handle cattle and calm and quiet them by holding them firmly in “squeeze chutes.”

I decided I would no longer self-pacify and I would FIGHT LIKE HELL TO GET AWAY rather than freeze like a deer in the headlights or a heifer in a squeeze chute. The FOG keeps us frozen, unable to muster the will to fight or flee, but when we can start to see through the “squeeze chute” of the FEAR OBLIGATION AND GUILT, we can break free.

If you feel attracted to the “bad guys” then I suggest you read the “Betrayal Bond” about trauma bonding. I don’t think, though, that it is the ONLY reason some of us stay with our abusers. Each of us in an individual, but there are some similarities in us just as there are with them. God bless us all!


LOL! I didn’t mean YOUR writing is bad, at worst you may need to qualify something a bit more. Mine is BAD, often grammatical errors, too simple of language. I hate the verbal word, it is so easy to misinterpret because we hear all our back story in the background for the right context, but the reader often doesn’t.

I AM seeing the point you are making…and then it slips out of my grasp again..



What you just wrote to slimone about masochistic fantasies is a huge, huge help to me.

I hope you can discuss that some more. That has bothered me a long time . I talked to a therapist once who said “just be glad something turns you on, many women would be grateful for that” and I never dared bring it up again.

In actually reality, I do NOT like that at all!!!!!!!!!!!! Anything resembling it in reality scares me. But I hate those fantasies. They pop into my head unbidden when I AM enjoying sex, and then I enjoy it more, but ONLY as a fantasy. It has really distressed me.


Hey Oxy,

Boy I have read the Betrayal Bond, and it is one of the books that got my eyes open. I love that book. Actually doing more of the ‘work’ in it, just this last month or so. I guess at this point I am not far enough along, with eyes open, that I feel I wouldn’t be taken in, yet again. I still have some fear, and I am letting that be OK, and staying out of the frey, kind of living a bit of a ‘cloistered’ life.

I, like you, had some difficulty finding my way ‘inside’. I kept focusing outside to find the fix I needed, to ease my way. I would go in, and HAD to come out because I could only do so much work at any given point before it just hurt too much, or became an exercise in futility, cause I just wasn’t ready yet.

Now. Now it feels like the door is wide open, and there is no closing it for a respite.

I also have read Women Who Love…..another Fab-u-lous book. I do characterize myself as someone who is bright and likes people/men who have a certain dynamism and energy to them. And I get, as you say and the book talks about, how that kind of man is just as likely to have p traits.

As you say it is lots of reasons that we may find ourselves attracted. I find I relate to many of the reasons that were outlined in WWLP’s.

Matter of fact this is just my type: dynamic, smart, verbal, and doesn’t have a pot to piss in. Those that have a**loads of energy and dynamism, and not squat to show for it. Generally those slightly out-of-mainstream creative types: musicians, dancers, painters, and performers. My therapist pointed out that I love an outsider. Takes one to know one.

I know some of these p’s have oodles of belongings, and are dentists/doctors and all manner of ‘successful’. But the one’s I always found attractive were the lost puppies, who had grown up to be strong dominant dogs, but were still pissing in their own beds. Guess even the ‘successful’ ones are still pissing their beds, they just aren’t sleeping bags or futons!

justabouthealed, I want to hug you. Is there an emoticon for that?

In response to your long post. I agree that my path is definitely about healing from old stuff. And that for someone who just got blindsided — and we have a people here who have stories like that — there might not be the need or motivation to do all the work to get clear.

As the same time — and this is not an argument, just me thinking out loud — I think we live in a culture that makes it very hard to be “clear.” The ambient values are unhealthy in many ways, though people who are, either by history or temperament, more stable, happy and self-referenced may be able to choose what’s healthy for them, and what’s meaningful in terms of reaching out through their careers or other work in ways to do good in the world. Reading the biographies of people who started early to accomplish this sort of thing, I see that, for whatever reason, they didn’t live with the demons and self-sabotage that I did.

And then, there is the fact that these relationships are traumatic and force us to deal with the effect of that trauma on our wiring. Martha Stout wrote a book called “The Paranoia Swith: How Terror Rewires Our Brains and Reshapes Our Behavior — And How We Can Reclaim Our Courage.” It’s on my reading pile, because I’m interested in this. Part of my premise is that the sociopaths make use of rewiring that already exists from previous trauma. But I’m open to the idea that this is new trauma on a previously untraumatized psyche. But in a way, the problems are the same. How do we resolve it? And can we do it completely, extracting the learning and stepping up to greater power and awareness, or is it always going to be psychic baggage?

So, as I said, I don’t know. Don’t know if my path is relevant to anyone. Don’t assume anything about what brought people here. I just found something that brought me where I needed to go, so I’m sharing it. I don’t mean to make it sound like universal truth, or make myself sound like a great guru. I’m not. I’m just one person whacking at the weeds in my head.

Regarding the masochistic fantasies, I agree with the way you feel about them. Except that I went a lot farther than imagining them when I was having sex. And I don’t really feel comfortable discussing it here, but if you want to chat, my contact information is in the author’s section.

From a really simple perspective they’re about power. Polarized power. It’s not hard to understand why we would associate heavy power dynamics with sex. But I think that, with me at least, the powerful draw was directly related to my shame and fear. Stuff I didn’t recognize on the surface of my mind. I was in major denial, imagining myself to be totally in control of myself and my life and totally comfortable with my life choices, no matter how unconventional.

It still kind of astounds me how much internal incongruity I lived with. I was arrogant but totally vulnerable to criticism. I never got angry but I was choked with resentment about so many things. I thought I was just fine and I thought there was something incurable wrong with me. I didn’t trust anyone else and I didn’t trust myself. I was extremely competitive, but I virtually always arranged to lose.

I was just a mess. And after the sociopath showed me what a mess I really was, I just had to go back and sort this old stuff out. I didn’t want to live like that anymore.

And in a way, it was all about power. That’s why I have so much respect for what you’re doing. Power is crucial. The incisiveness that goes with it. If we can’t reclaim our power, we can’t move on to anything else. (Well, we can leapfrog it into that kind of ungrounded spirituality that abuse victims do so well, while they can’t take care of their own lives.) But we have to get power down — get from that blast of backed-up rage to a mature, controlled use of anger and power — to ever trust ourselves and trust that we can keep ourselves safe while we move on to the more optional aspects of self development.

People told me that submissives eventually switch to being tops. I never believed it until I surfaced my anger and began to develop my power. I found the sociopath in me, and thank heavens my psyche finally began to be more rounded out. Though I wouldn’t claim I can’t be frightened, I am generally not someone a predator wants to mess with now.

And I think that balancing of power inside of me was what made those masochistic fantasies fade. Except for academically, I’m not interested in shame anymore. My concept of surrender is more about giving in to reality than any big bad man. At my deepest involvement with this stuff, I used to imagine being driven past my tolerance level through some kind of looking glass, where I would be free of tension and shame, awake and alert and loving myself and connected with the world. And I could do that, but it was like a drug high, transient and not real.

This path is the real way to that state, the way to own it, rather than earn it through expensive addictions and ultimately self-defeating excesses. For me anyway.



Thanks Kathy, that is very helpful. I will write more after I’m off my deadline project, I’m getting hopelessly behind! But this gives my brain something to chew on in the background. Heavy stuff! More later!!!


I have not read this book yet but I do feel that I need it. I am still married 2 the sociopath. I have been struggling breaking free of this toxic relationship. I cried when I read just five of the betrayal bonds. They all describe me. The last sign.. Longing for and nastalga relationship that almost destroyed you.. He tried 2 kill me in our home and I still 4gave him.. Even though he never said he was sorry, because he wasn’t. It is so hard because he has moments when we do laugh and things are nice. But deep in my heart I do not feel his equal. I do not feel like I really matter. I have a hard time excepting the fact that the past older memories are gone. He is mental and I can’t help him.. I try 2 tell myself, you can except the fact that my son has special needs and as hard as that was to do I did it. I live in reality of it. Why can’t I except the fact that this relationship is so toxic. Recently I found out he had been cheating on me while I was pregnant.. This happenend last month.. Now I believe he is cheating again with someone else. I found a reciept that proved he had lied.. He never explained the hard evidence just the fact that I got in his stuff.. I came our looking like a bad guy.. I do not want 2 have a relationship with someone I have 2 always check their story out.. Not good at all.. Not good for our children.. I really do want 2 walk away.. I just feel that and this is gonna sounds crazy, but I feel that if he has relationship with someone else and both happy that I failed.. That maybe if I had tried harder I cld have made him happy.. I know it sounds sick. I just want 2 be happy and 4 my children 2 have a stable happy home. I so much want 2 break this toxic bond.


It’s late here but I can’t go to bed without acknowledging your post.

My heart cries out to yours. I’ve been “out” for 7 years but I stayed TOO long and my health is shot and so is my money. I could have written your history as if it were my own.

I can only caution you that if he tried to kill you twice already you are not safe. NORMAL men do not try to kill their wives!!!

As for feeling that his relationship with someone else will be good, please look up all the posts about this normal fear. They aren’t capable of feeling happiness (as we feel it anyway) and he will treat a new target the same or worse than he has mistreated you. They don’t change.

YOU are NOT a failure. You were dealing with a disordered person and duped by the lies. YOU are NOT to blame.

This is a great place to come for advice on how to plan your exit. (Don’t reveal your plans, though, to keep yourself safe.)

YOU CAN BREAK THIS TOXIC BOND. All of us that have gotten out already have done it. You can, too! Trust your instincts.

super chic

kate09: May I gently suggets that you read an article that is in the May 2009 archives? It is called Marriage to a Sociopath Ends in Murder. I’m not trying to scare you, but you did say he has tried to kill you twice. If you are still sitting on the fence wondering what to do, please read the article, it was written by Kelsi’s Mom.


You are not the one…’s not you. EVERYTHING you have described is what I too have lived. EVERY PART OF IT!
It’s the crazymaking, it’s the gaslighting, it’s that you will never please him. Life is a game and you and the kids are pawns……Read, read read……all the posts, all the articles, just ramble on through LF. You will connect. You will find answers, you will find a way to plan an exit strategy.
You owe it to yourself, and your children.
You are not crazy, you are not imagining these things….I think this is why we get so good at ‘recon’…..because we are always ‘chasing’ after their stories…..they say we are wrong, we have proof, they say we are snooping and they will ‘leave’ if we don’t trust them…’s all a throwback….its projection.
I did it for 28 years…..I am no different than you. None of us are. We all have similar stories, all horrifying to the outside world. DIfferent players, same game.
Its not ‘sick’ to want the father of your children and your husband to be the man you ‘imagined’, the give and take in a relationship, the loyalty, the honor, the love……..YOU WILL NEVER GET IT FROM HIM!!! HE HAS SHOWN YOU HIS TRUE BEING!!!!!!
HE WILL NOT CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I heard this for YEARS, and each time we could laugh and ‘share a moment’, I thought…..gee, see he is making progress…..IT”S ONLY TO APPEASE YOU WHEN HE FEELS HE IS LOSING HIS SUPPYLY (YOU). It’s temporary, you see this. It manipulative, you see this.
I suggest you educate yourself all you can on the S, and plan an exit.
You need to be stealth and do not let him know what you are up to… along with him, don’t address the ‘other’ women…let him think your ‘happy’…..while you put money aside, remove jewelry or valuables out of the home, copy bank records, titles, investments etc, get a P.O box in another town…find a safe place to go, find a good therapist and a good attorney YOU MUST BE STEALTH ABOUT IT,…..There will be times when you get so pissed at his actions you will want to confront him…..DO NOT…..HE WILL NOT CHANGE, you will only be feeding him information about WHAT you know. SLITHER LIKE A SNAKE, and strike when the time is right (with leaving/divorce). NEVER LET THEM SEE YOU SWEAT! EVER! It will all be used against you. STAY IN CONTROL OF YOUR EMOTIONS (hard part), but he will set you up to look like the ‘crazy’ person to the outside world…..DO NOT FALL FOR IT!!!!!
if you read back on threads… will find some wonderful advice you can relate to……DON”T DO ANYTHING RASH AND GIVE YOURSELF AWAY….YOU MUST BE SMART ABOUT THIS!!!!!
Change email passwords and internet passwords, get a CC in your name only, change the title on your vehicle into YOUR name only. Send all mail to your new P.o Box.
Make a decision and never look back. Life does get better, BUT it takes some work and educating yourself on what your dealing with.
Please do not wait until it’s too late….your kids need a healthy and happy mamma. You are NOT NEVER EVER GOING TO CHANGE HIM!!!!! Let him do his thing…..thinking he is getting away with it all…….as YOU DO YOURS!!!!
It won’t be easy, BUT……..
You will never regret leaving.
We are here, bounce of us… all you can, ask questions and take control of your life/emotions and future!
You will never be judged here.


Erin – absolutely fantastic advice:)x I ditto what she said!:)

Kate –
I am glad you have come here and you will get a lot of strength and clarity here ( it might not be instant! and you might fall off the ‘wagon’ – like me) but just by coming here and starting this process you are setting things in motion for a much healthier and happier life:)xx

I am a little worried about something,ndid I read on another thread that ‘he’ has seen this site…does he know you are blogging?


Erin – absolutely fantastic advice:)x I ditto what she said!:)

Kate –
I am glad you have come here and you will get a lot of strength and clarity here ( it might not be instant! and you might fall off the ‘wagon’ – like me) but just by coming here and starting this process you are setting things in motion for a much healthier and happier life:)xx

I am a little worried about something,ndid I read on another thread that ‘he’ has seen this site…does he know you are blogging?


Another Great resource for Healing and Compassion and Understanding! At best Awareness vs understanding!

Dang!!! Some more triggers!!! The masochistic piece is presenting itself before us. I was raped more than once, and just chalked it up to my weirdness or something I invited. Interesting timing – today I got a tooth pulled. While reading this blog I spotted this section on masochism and had a memory of when I was 19 and in bed one afternoon, as I had just had 4 wisdom teeth pulled. My “boyfriend aka abuser) came to the door, and when I didn’t answer, he went around to the back of the house and climbed in a kitchen window. He also climbed in my bed. As I told him no, my mind was thinking yes, as I was so desperate for someone to love me. To me that was love back in those days. Today I realize it was rape. My body was never mine, but whoever wanted it for whatever they wished to do with it. Wonder where I got THAT message??
Also, something’s been bugging me alot. I have been watching Bachelorette Show on t.v. with cute little Jillian. She has narrowed her search for a husband down to three guys. I am so excited, as I was able to spot out the sociopath from the first. What a slimebag he is. Watching him made my skin crawl, and I thought, “Girlie, you have some work to do”. Has anyone else picked up on that? My radar’s working!!!!

Wes is the name of the slick, sick, creepy dirtbag above on the Bachelorette Show!!



I also saw The Bachelorette Monday night. I spotted him, too!!!
Did you see his behavior in the Limo?!?!?!?

RAGING SOCIOPATH/NARCISSIST on display for the nation to see!!!!!

Is that going to be good for CD sales?



hello everyone, i haven’t been posting in quite some time and am in a terrible mess as my dad is dying of cancer and they my brother, my dad’s executor etc. twice have tried to pressure me and without even allowing me legal advice to sign papers giving my stepmother and brother life lease of my grandmothers farm. I am the one who my grandmother had to look after her as they never bothered to visit only took money. They took my mothers money and she died penniless and this shit for brains executor of my dad’s is power tripping (my mother despised him) and he brought up how my mother was burried like a pauper and did i know what that was . I can’t get into all the details but in short my brother has taken everyones money his whole life(fullblown alcoholic) and my dad has enabled him all the way. I asked for nothing and even now they want me to foreit my 1/3 it’s dispicable to say the least and im so mixed. One day they are telling me that my dad loves us equally and the next they are throwing papers in front of me to sign or else im left out of his 1/3. My son who is a decent boy waiting to ggo into military as an officer had had enough and said im going out to talk my paul(never called him grandpa) resonably to explain that my mom is single and she was the one who my grandma turned to and my brother is a total fuckup. My brother saw us in town and threatened to run us off the road if we upset hiim as he knew seeing my son meant someone with common sense was going to talk to my dad. I knew my brother was a coward but my son said he was not risking his career with these rednecks etc. We get there and my step mother is outside and she doesn’t realize my brother is just using her to stay there thinking he will eventually get her out as she can’t afford and isn’t intending to stay on farm. In essence they didn’t let my son or i see my dad but some local guy pulled in and my stepmom said he had woken up and he could see him. My grandmother and my mother never saw a dime off of two farms that they owned in there lifemtimes and they think they can blow me off too. Im so weak after all the shit ive been through with the sociopath but i don’t think he was as bad as all this shit with my family. So much for the trauma program, my life has gotten worse , still not back to work(they are holding thngs up with economy too many want the hours) and im getting longterm but my mind is going crazy with all the shit i’ve had thrown at me , im down to 100 lbs and trying to eat and i can’t beleive that every man i’ve ever had in my life other than my sons has betrayed me and screwed me over. I was in bed earlier today as i was spinning and even driving im so distracted knowing my dad is ill and i really am contimplating not even going to the wake(another excuse to blow more money) they have treated me so shitty. Then i get so angry i think i could literally go out there and tell my brother to go ahead and drink himself to death as he deserves to . My one gf said no wonder your poor mom drank herself to death having to deal with these idiots. My ex sister in law is behind me and my step mother has all along told me not to go along with different ideas(severing farm etc.) they have. I am not exaggerating when i say my brother has blown through over half a million and is not behind in child support and my dad is worried aobut him and our family name. Wtf is wrong with these idiots. I’ve tried all my life to get the approval from them and my brother is sickeningly jealous of me and for what . I asked for not a dime and have always tried to be good to them. It makes me sick to think and then i worry about what people will think but i don’t even want to deal with them and they have not done right by any of the women in their lives. They are rednecks with no brains and when i was married i at least had my husband(banker who twice refinanced them to get them out of trouble) but now im on my own, I don’t even know how my dad is doing and then i think why the hell am i caring. They should be sick with shame for the way they have treated me but they can’t stand the fact that im the executor of my grandmas will and it’s in trust to me a woman. I dkon’t know how im going to make it through all the shit i have ahead of me, my brother is telling people im on drugs to boot as i’ve lost so much weight. I keep thinking of my mom and my grandma and that motivates me to try and stay strong and not let them get the best of me but my feelings get in the way . I flip from wanting to literally hate them to feeling pity for myself and them. love kindheart

I DID see him in the limo and also throughout the show. I smelled him like a rat throughout the whole show. I have empathy for Jillian, as she obviously has some unresolved issues in her life to be attracted to him. What I observed in him was such a lack of heartfelt emotion. He said the words, but he was hollow inside. He reminded me of my ex and only continued to reinforce what I was feeling in my ex’s lack of emotional connection. It seemed my ex got much worse the last 18 years, but I think that I had gotten much better and was better able to recognize it.
I was aghast at the really neat guys like Jake who genuinely cared for Jillian, had a stable job as an airline pilot and obviously knew what compassion meant, cast aside in favor of a dude with a line of lies and a wannabe career as a musician. I can’t fix her, but I can pray for her. Thanks, Rosa, for your neat comments.


Lisa Scott is the author about “It’s all About Him” @

The members there are pretty much having the same opinion about the show Wes on “The Bachelorette” is a Raging Narcissist as the member here at LoveFraud.

I haven’t see the show myself but know the member here at LoveFraud so I no doubt believe their assumption as being correct. I am not much of a reality show watcher myself just to note.



Yeah, poor Jake!!
They should make him the next bachelor.

Jillian definitely needs to educate herself about the S/P/N. That was way to close for comfort.

P.S. And it wouldn’t hurt the producers of the show or whoever picks these guys to educate themselves, too.

Thanks for the link, James.

super chic

kindheart: I don’t know if you can see it yourself, but to me you seem much stronger than you were before. I know you want to see your father, is there any way to avoid talking much with the others? Maybe you should get an attorney (after your father passes away??) and then you won’t have to talk to them at all. Don’t sign anything!!!!! Please write again soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Just back from holiday (didn’t realise how much I needed to get away and relax – had lots of laughs too, which has been a great tonic).

Just read your post of the 7th and, once again, got great clarity from your ‘spot on’ insights re: adventurous women and that, perhaps, being the reason we attract these ‘types’. Also, the analogy about an animal ‘holding its prey’ struck a note with me and made real sense of why we/I ‘froze’ and allowed it to continue (always making excuses for unacceptable behaviour/verbal and physical abuse. Definitely am going to get a copy of The Betrayal Bond – I think it might help me with the next stage of healing – there is still stuff I HAVE to understand about myself/the whole dynamic of what happened to move on to what I hope will be the ‘self-forgiveness’.

Thanks Oxy.

All good wishes.


Welcome back Escapee:)x So happy to hear you got away and had a relaxing time:)x

‘there is still stuff I HAVE to understand about myself/the whole dynamic of what happened to move on to what I hope will be the ‘self-forgiveness’.

I totally get this. I am at this point with my family.I have begun with completely rejecting a continuation of the b/s and now have requested my social care records and health records, contacted old social workers to try and just put the puzzle pieces together…for myself.I worry a little whether I should be opening this ‘can of worms’ and should just ditch it move on…but that feels like putting a band aid on a broken leg. I really feel it will help me in my next stage of healing, they’ve spent so long spinning their self serving webs I never knew which way was up- doubted my own memories…

Anyway, beautifully put.

The Betrayal bond is on my long list of LF recomended reading sitting in my Amazon basket waiting for me to be able to afford it:)



blueskies and all,

Don’t forget your local library. Even if they do not have a particular title in their collection, you can get many books through a service called interlibrary loan. The cost is minimal. I got “Betrayal Bond” through interlibrary loan; the fee was around $2.00.



It’s sounding like a real trip into the unknown for you. If you do decide you need to ‘open the can of worms’, before you do – make sure you have as much support from those who have your best interests at heart.

I identify with ‘doubting your own memory’ – the great thing about how I am starting to feel is that (and I can’t remember who said this – maybe Oxy or Steve Becker) is that it helped me to reclaim the integrity of my own judgement and rebuild my confidence. They twist your mind around so much that you have no trust in your feelings or intuition. Reclaim it – I say – but, as with everything, when you are coming out the other side of S/N/Ps – do it on your own terms and in your own time – another great healing realisation is that you are on your schedule NOT theirs!

Be kind to yourself wherever possible.

All Love to you.


Right now I’m reading “Freeing Yourself from the Narcissist in Your Life”..It is about “high-level narcissists” . It is unexpectedly spiritual it seems, jumping to the end!

Has anyone else read it?


Well I went out and bought this book The Betrayal Bond. I am reading it now. One of my main issues dealing with the S in my life is the projection issues.. The S in my life is so good at it.. Any time I try 2 show or share emotions he turns it around on me.. I always end up feeling like I am the unstable one or maybe I ask 2 much.. I used 2 feel weak but I am starting 2 see that I am getting stronger. I have often wonderd why I picked or stayed with a S.. It’s strange how my identical twin sister also is in an abusive relationship. So glad I bought this book.

Ox Drover

Dear Escapee,

Just got to your post to me about my earlier post…glad you had a good time away….we definitely need that sometimes.

There comes a time I think in our healing from the Ps that it is NO LONGER about THEM, but about US.

There is a great deal of evidence that their behaviors and aggression are genetic, and I wonder if there is something about our passivity that is also genetic. There was a study done by a man at Ft. Roots Veterans Administration Center in Little Rock, AR that spanned two decades, he was breeding a “race” of dogs, starting from one litter, breeding the more aggressive to the more aggressive and the more timid and passive ones to the more timind and passive ones and after about 20 generations, he had two groups of dogs that though they all had the SAME TWO common ancestors 20 generations back, were totally different in temperment. One group viscious and the other so passive that they woujld “belly crawl and whine” at anything. If my P-son could inherit the genes from my P-sperm donor and his ancestors and from his father’s P-father and be aggressive, what is to say that I didn’t inherit the genes, along with the socialization I got to be the “caregiver” and patsy to the aggressive ones?

Makes me wonder, though, if there isn’t some genetic links in at least SOME OF THE VICTIMS too.


I just watched the clip on CNN from the Joy Behar Show about sex trafficking. What an idiot Joy appeared to me, and judgmental, though I think she SORT OF realized her mistake, but not totally. She said something like “Now you know you should have called the police earlier”.

I think there is very little understanding of trauma bonds and maybe they ought to be called trauma chains!!!!


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