Researchers at Yale University developed studies to answer the question: Do babies have a sense of right and wrong? What they came up with may surprise you.
Read The moral life of babies, on NYTimes.com. Be sure to watch the video.
Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader.
buttons 🙂 my best wishes to your transforming rice puddin’.
i have not studied biology – and i think your info. the reappearance of recessive genes fascinating. again, that is a recurrence because of combining DNA (what i remember from high school science ;)) of several individuals – so, if ppathy was wiped out in ALL populations, those factors would not have the opportunity to co mingle and become dominant in any given individual. right?
i have re-jigged my beliefs in many ways after the ppath. death sentence? onside now for spaths. genetic engineering? would consider for spaths. i also beleive that all that we do affects all that we do. but that does not mean that changing something would necessarily bring a negative result. – perhaps, instead it is a cascade of positive that comes tumbling our way.
i do agree that we as humans are always doing things ‘because we can’. just becuase we can build increasingly devastating bombs, we do. what will be the result of that endevour over time? well, that wasn’t taken into consideration by the folks that built the n bomb (and they have said so publicly)…did it because it was science and because like all the other stupid shit we do, ‘because we could.’ and this brings us right back around to ‘conscience’ – and how much we have/ don’t’ have, and how finely we develop and use what we do have.
in general, we are in trouble as a species because we don’t exercise what we do have, and because of THAT, i believe the ppaths get away with a lot more, because we like to think that they are like us, but just ACT less conscientiously than we do, we like to believe they really “ARE just like us” (in part. because it is so hard to contemplate what they may really be), and WE don’t want to look at our morally/ ethically suspect behavior, so we let ppaths have at it…’we’ (humanity) act like a bunch of delinquent children, by and large.
well, don’t know where THAT rant came from….but no, I do. I am thinking about people who run from acknowledging the ppathic behavior in this world, and what that means for all of us. i am thinking that the ‘blame’ of the loss of one of my relationships in the last week or so rests squarely on the shoulders of the ppath. yes, it is MY responsibility to take care of my relationships, and my friend’s responsibility to take care of hers… but it was the ppaths bullshit that caused this probably irreconcilable rupture. i will do what i need to do – but i also NEED to make an account of all that the @.......#$%^ cost me. JUST SO THAT I AM REALLY REALLY CLEAR ON WHAT SHE COST ME.
back to genetic engineering – yes, we suck at evaluating the possible consequences of our scientific actions. but i do not think that monsanto engineering corn so that it has to be grown with their chemicals and rapes the land of nutrients, renders it useless, and injects it with petroleum products that poisons much or the world’s popluation; and is quickly turning it into the world’s monopolizing food producer is the same as removing this gene/ set of gene’s from the pool. i see one application of genetic engineering as negative and the other as potentially positive.
it deserves an enormous amount of consideration, both as a stand alone idea, and as an idea within the context of genetic engineering within humans (and i don’t engage in slippery slope theories).
having this experience with the ppath has meant i look at things differently, and more critically than before. many of my ideas are now in their infancy. need discussion and time to ripen and mature. if it would be possible to stop spathy…
One_step, the most interesting thing of walking the healing path is that our ideas and beliefs are constantly maturing and evolving. With each new person that we come into contact with, we learn something new and valuable.
Good Sunday morning gals,
Well, I think the oil spill is going to wipe out humanity, so it doesn’t matter if Ps are genetic or learned, we are all doomed anyway! How’s that for a cheery good morning!?! LOL
Okay, I’m doing “LF Saturday night Live” on Sunday morning!
I just finished anothr great book called “The Other Brain” which was recommended to my son D by a medical student friend of his (used in their classes) and it went into all this detail about how the brain GROWS new connections, and here-to-fore they didn’t realize that the glia cells in the central nervous system (brain) were anything but insulation for the neurons, but are finding out they are actually controlling the neurons.
Which gives me hope that the Nurture aspects of a child born with the genetic tendency for P-ism can be used to prevent the full blown disorder.
I don’t guess we will ever truly in our life times know the answer to these questions, but at the same time, it gives me so much hope to think (whether it is true or not!) that a child is not born DOOMED to be a psychopath by genetics. That there is some HOPE for that child. I believe in “free will” in that we all have CHOICES in our behavior. Some of us have more of a “load” of genetic and/or “bad childhoods” to contend with (just like some folks are more prone to alcoholism than others) but we still have CHOICES of how we behave.
I DO think though that after a certain period of time, that the CHOICES to change our behavior are pretty slim to none, or that as the Bible says “the heart is hardened” and is NOT going to change. It is kind of like you go so far and there is NO turning back from the brink, once you cross that line it is a done deal.
I also wonder, if genetics + nurture (or lack of it)=psychopath, then does genetics+nurture (or lack of it) also produce the victim? I’m actually starting to lean that direction, because if “they” are produced by a combination of genetics and environment, they why wouldn’t it also hold true for “us”?
Is it also possible that is the reason that so many victims stay in the victim mode “for life”? What is the difference between those victims who WANT and DO change and “escape” and those that never even try to escape (Stockholm syndrome?) Does it have to do with the prey animal’s tendency to “freeze” when trapped and stop struggling?
They have shown that our perception of pain is both a learned perception, (how your culture shows or doesn’t show pain response) but mostly a genetic one. There are two genes for this, one for “wimp” and one for “stoic”, if you get two wimp genes (one from each parent) you will faint dead away from a paper cut, if you get one of each, you are in the middle, and if you get two stoic genes you don’t seem to notice a broken leg (a bit exagerated there! LOL but you get the points)
So maybe our (escaped victims’) “freeze” genes when we are trapped are not as predominant as those of other humans and we don’t surcumb to giving up as easily as some of our fellows to the Stockholm syndrome which would bind us to the abusers.
If you look at my family for example there is a MIX of victims and abusers, almost 50/50 and dominant men seem to choose subservient women to marry, although my egg donor seems to have some dominance and control issues, but I have also seen a great deal of environmental and family role assignment in her behavior, especially since my grandmother (her mother) died and she assumed more of the “peace at any price” role almost in a 180 degree turn around from her previous roles. (if that makes any sense) So assuming that both victim and psychopathic genes are recessive, plus need several of each to produce a totally submissive or dominant person, then it would seem to me that there would be some “ducks” and some “swans” in every litter— or I guess some Pit Bulls and some Beagles would b e more like it. So then if the Pit sought out a submissive mate, and vice versa (due to environment and training) the mix would continue forever.
Just some brain drizzle this morning but sure makes me curious….but you know what curosity did to the cat!
OxD, I’ve finally gotten to responding to your post on this article. I think that there are so many variables involved in the human psyche that genetic/environmental factors contribute to spath behavior. Cultural norms also contribute.
Your mentioning the victim “freeze” gene could truly be genetic, or also ingrained as a learned behavior. My mom was always the “peace at any price” person in our family. She wasn’t spath, but she was diagnosed in the last year of her life with bi-polar disorder, which explained a multitude of her behaviors. She wasn’t cruel, unless she was on a downward spiral, and it was very sad to watch her cycle the way that she did. She is also the person that compelled me to consider the “martyr syndrome” as a personality disorder. Like I’ve said before, I don’t know if this is even recognized in the psychological community, but she would deliberately make emotional, financial, and physical sacrifices in the firm belief that she would finally be appreciated if she could just sacrifice enough so that someone would notice.
Now, having said that, it relates directly to the “learned” aspect of victimization. I was adopted as an infant and, whether there was already a genetic predisposition for victim status or not, I saw the woman who raised me engaging in “martyr syndrome.” And, I honestly believe that this is what I also practiced with the ex spath. I took the abuse because I probably believed that, at some point, he would step back, see (and, acknowledge) my personal sacrifices (education, friends, innocence, etc.) and APPRECIATE me for having made them.
It’s not brain drizzle, at all, OxD! It’s a very astute observation that continues to expose the stinking underbelly of the abuser/spath/victim connection.
Dr. Liane Leedom believes that even though a child is born of a sociopathic parent, and therefore genetically at risk of becoming sociopathic as well, it does not necessarily have to happen. That’s what her book – Just Like His Father? – is all about. It’s a guide to raising children to help prevent the traits from developing. And yes, it’s best to start in infancy.
Dear Buttons,
Oh, yes, I was such a “Martyr” where my P-son was concerned! Definitely there was some Environmental component to this as I was trained that this was my “fate” in the family to “keep the peace at ANY PRICE” when my egg donor passed on. Her mother was the Martyr before her and her mother before that. The P-gene goes back to AT LEAST a man born in about 1800 who was an alcoholic BEAST on the male line (I have court records from 1840s that you would Not even comprehend the violence they showed!) He was murdered at age 60 at his home by parties unknown but the family rumor is that he was such a jack ass that someone put him out of the family’s misery.
The family line also includes several muder/suicides as well and consistent alcoholic abuse, and I think (I can’t prove)at least once case of incest in the 1880s in close lateral branches of this family. There were 3 generations of murder/suicide in that line, ending with a woman about my age whose father was the last male survivor who was orphaned at age 2-3 by his father’s suicide and his grandfather’s suicide, we traced the family line via the “Poor house” records in Tennessee where the kids were sent when they were orphaned. Interesting research. It was sort of the “foster care” of the time, they put the kids into the “poor house” then farmed out the ones who were old enough to work to the “lowest bidder” to feed them. From the records that place must have been a pure hell-hole! The “poor house” was supposed to be self supporting as well, by growing produce and livestock…with kids and 75 year old stroke victims doing the work.
Even in “good” families the kids had a hard time growing up not so very long ago. As late as the 1950s the South was still in a depression from prior to the Civil War, it wasn’t until then that most country people had enough to eat 12 months of the year. Nutritional problems can also cause BIG TIME brain and congnitive problems for as much as three generations if the child is starved before birth (in the female offspring of deprived embryos)
We have a lot to be thankful for today.
We are all born with a moral adjuster at our core (perhaps, the essence of the soul).. then add in genetics and environment.
Nature vs Nurture and all it’s facets…
a good soul can be born into hell and not be corrupted.. another can adapt to survive, another, may become even more evil to get back at.. who knows why certain ones choose what… that is a question as big as the Universe…
The individual moral code, character, intelligence, creativity, tastes, desires, physical, mental, and emotional characteristics are all very individual based on the soul’s core, genetics and environment..
I do believe that most all children respond to kindness and respect. And that a harmed child can be taught through kindess, love and respect to heal themsleves if their core is open to this..
that is why forgiveness of harm done is key.. so as it won’t stay to corrupt your core..
I have done much in spiritual studies..
and all emotions and our feelings about them are good.. it’s that we move through them to release that we can arrive back at peace in our spirit. When a person feels love, loves themself, respects themself and others and feels fulfilled, they are not the ones that do harm to others.. as they have too much respect for human beings and self to harm another.
It’s the damaged ones that cause the most harm to others.
And our escalating loss of morals, values and the tradtional family traditions are causing more people to have little values in themselves and towards others.
Donna, I totally agree with Liane on that, but I’m not sure if it a “good environment” doesn’t need to start prenatally, but at least by birth! I wonder about the “stress hormones” that the psychopath keeping us in distress does to the babies a woman carries while being so stressed.
BTW, Liane’s book is WONDERFUL for all of you with children, and keep in mind that a child’s brain doesn’t fully mature until early 20s as far as some of the higher aspects of cognition. Her web site about raising the “at risk child” is also a great resource. The ongoing research I recently read about in a book called “The Other Brain” seems to point to the fact that the brain is more “plastic” than medicine may have thought up to now so there may be a chance for some “later than infancy” help as well in the environmental departments. Let us hope and pray so!
Ox, we as a society can’t control who gets pregnant. Think of the drug addicts, the alcoholcis, the crazies that are carrying babies soon to be born … the baby had the stress invitro and then look at the enviroment that they land in..
But even then some come out kind, positively directed and okay..sometimes the ‘bad’ example, can create the shift to other choices..
So, what’s the full answer… geez, only God knows…
Donna, I’m sorry that I missed your response – these threads can scroll so quickly, sometimes!
Your comment takes me back to my previous question on this thread about the poor toddler whose parents are convicted rapists. What are this kids’ chances???