Researchers at Yale University developed studies to answer the question: Do babies have a sense of right and wrong? What they came up with may surprise you.
Read The moral life of babies, on NYTimes.com. Be sure to watch the video.
Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader.
Blue and others: I also think we ‘read’ posts as we interpret others in RL. If I’m on the defense I react with kneejerk responses immediately……
ONE thing LF has fine tuned in me, is to not react and think. Most of the time it’s ME and ‘where’ i’m at at that particular moment in time.
I see my postings….and re read them…..sometimes I’m playful, sometimes I’m direct, sometimes i’m impatient in my own life and respond with same on lf.
I don’t think anyone could ask anything else from us.
I’ve often wondered why society has the popularity contest it does…..and ‘who’ dictates who’s the leaders and whos the followers……and where everyone stands on the ‘totem’ poll.
We ALL find and place ourselves where we think we belong on the ‘chain’ in life…..ourselves.
I believe we get this in highschool.
We are never good enough, pretty enough, smart enough as the next person…….so we place ourselves below them.
We need to pull our self esteem up and not make status important.
I remember a poster (who I won’t name) and when they came to LF. I enjoyed this posters kindness and views. And one day they wrote about the ‘click’ on LF and not feeling welcomed or part of the clan.
I felt bad, because I liked this poster and wanted them to not feel this way…..
I pondered what I could do…….(see lessons in everything)….and I realized…..I couldn’t grovel, I couldn’t do anything more than I had and what was natural and genuine for me to make them feel more welcome, I COULN”T CHANGE THEM!. This was their baggage finding their way. Well…..this poster became more frequent at LF and has offered their genuine support and love to all and i’ve seen posts where others had felt the same as they had expressed in their beginning at LF.
I guess i’m a jump in kinda gal……get er done…..
The reality is…..we are cyber support……and it would be dangerous for any of us to expect anyone here to never say the wrong things…..
There is a lot of insinuations and interpretations and a lot of minds to interpret things differently…..and not knowing each other for reals…..well, that can be a dangerous mix welled up with emotions.
We can’t let others in cyber world knock us down…….there is plenty of that to be had in real world.
If we do find ourselves feeling ‘knocked’ down in cyperspace…..we need to look inwards at what it was that triggered this response.
I don’t think any of us feels ‘adequate’. We can’t assume others do.
Take what we need and cyphen through the rest and let it drop down the drain.
We are ALL head cheerleaders here at LF. Unfortunatley this time…..we ALL made the ‘team’!!!!!
GOOOOO team SURVIVOR!!!
hi jazzy,
just wanted to add in a little bit regarding the list. i drop in and out for all sorts of reasons, but when i do get to hang around for a while, i’ve found a couple of things that make it really worth it.
first though, i should say that i’ve seen some really disturbing posts, where a couple of semi-regulars will actually mock and belittle someone. there was a woman on here very recently, she seemed to me like she was on the edge of suicide and/or a complete mental breakdown. She wasn’t really speaking with the voice of sanity, and it’s clear she was grasping at the last shreds of reality she could see, mixed with some pretty un-real stuff. I tried to say something, anything i could think of to help this woman, or at least to extend some compassion – and could hardly think of a thing to say because she seemed in such serious trouble. And then to my amazement, three old timers/regulars began mocking this woman, and turned the thread into a string of infantile, ‘insider’, clique-ish jokes spinning off one of the nastiest jokes i’ve yet to see on the site. The first and meanest joke was made at her expense. Then, thinking better of it, they did remove the most offensive of their jokes, thank God, but not without adding other posts dripping in thinly veiled sarcasm and juvenile self-importance. I’m talking zero empathy, and worse. And i haven’t seen a post from this woman who was in so much trouble since. I’m not sure anyone here could have helped her, to be honest.
I’ve also had a person read into my posts things I never said, and then ridicule me for those very things (the things she had simply presumed I was saying and/or made up herself). I pointed out the misunderstanding to her, keeping things to the issues as much as possible (instead of personal criticism). Nothing came of it, and I’m not exactly holding my breath for an apology. Bottom line, people will attack, sometimes they’ll come from a place of cruelty, arrogance, and false-assumptions, saying things that have a lot of potential to hurt and/or create confusion, and that are designed to directly or indirectly demonstrate their own personal superiority — they’ll be unfair. It does happen here.
On top of that, misunderstandings in good-faith and mutual respect are easy enough here, too, because we’re not face-to-face. E-communication sometimes causes the important emotional inflections in what we’re saying to be obscure. I suspect that people who end up bickering here may have actually ended up hugging each other if they had had their conversations in person.
BUT, to my main point — what makes encountering the lowest stuff here worth it (for me anyway), is the rare understanding, empathy, kindness and encouragement you can find here. It’s rare in the sense that so few people in our world really understand and can relate to waking up to the reality of sociopathy and narcissism. No one gets it like the people here get it, and it is such a comfort. For me, it’s like finding light in the darkness, when I get to talk with some of the people here. It gives me hope and understanding on days when I can’t find any in my off-line life.
And many kind souls will let you ramble, blather, and expose your most raw and private emotions and experiences, and not even run away screaming once they’ve seen all that stuff 🙂 . They’ll actually stay and talk with you, trying to help, including on those days when you can’t even help yourself. They’ll let your mistakes slide, knowing with compassion that we’re not always going to be at our best and/or say things exactly as we mean them, and try to build you back up when you feel like you’re just a puddle of nothing on the ground. Even finding common-ground with people who have views that I otherwise disagree with has been a great thing.
Just having people to talk with who care means the world to me, because none of my friends in my off-line life (although they care in their own way) can have a real understanding of the kind of stuff that people on this site are dealing with, and having to recover from.
Anyway, this is a good chance for me to thank the kind souls that i’ve come to know on this site for all of their generosity and nobility of spirit. No matter what comes of all the struggles we face, it’s been an honor for me to be able to face my struggles with your decency, encouragements and amazing insights lighting the way. I don’t even want to know how lonely and isolated I’d feel without you. I’m sure I’d hate it.
Psyche
Jazzy129,
I find your posts interesting, helpful. The only times I typically post are when I’m off work (day time hours), sometimes spending my spare time doing errands, housework, etc. When I am on the site, I spend time reading the articles, posts, etc., responding to others at times, becoming more comfortable about doing so, not always sure if my input will be helpful, but hoping it is! Take care, I have to get ready for work.
great post Psyche. Humans tend to get into ‘school bully’ mode or run with the pack everywhere. work, school, home, EVEN here. I am glad you spoke up about that. We ALL need to be mindful of it and say something about it if it comes up… I didnt. You are a good simaritan:)
I think Erin makes a good point too about pulling up our own self esteem! we ALL need to remind ourselves that people come here with NO SELF ESTEEM left sometimes, or having never developed it:(x
Speaking of reading into things based on what youre feeling : I was IM–ing with my friend the other day, best mate since top years infants, and I was telling her that I had signed what I thought was nothing for a local man which turned out to be sponsership for him running as a Christian fundamentalist party MP in our recent elections! (I am not religious) she snapped right back with “I dont know about Christian Fundamentalist but definately a Mentalist!” I had to find a way to quickly end the conversation because I was so hurt! I’ve been going through hell and I was feeling low and needed a friend not someone to ridicule me.
a couple of things came out of it:
1.) I think that she was putting me down to feel better about herself? She has a very different life to me…. maybe she feels guity about that. It is an insecurity reflex?[a different life in that she is in a good place right now and has a good family – she knows about mine….its uncomfortable…like not knowing what to say when someone’s loved ones die and resorting to joking over it? ]
2.) I realise that she has ALWAYS done this, but I’ve only just heard it because I am re-evaluating what IS and IS NOT okay for me in life and my relationships and it upset me.
3.) I realise that a lot of my long standing relationships are set up in the familiar ‘model’ of my childhood and MY behaviour almost encourages it.
So now I am mulling it over … 🙂
Psyche:
You say:
“I’ve also had a person read into my posts things I never said, and then ridicule me for those very things (the things she had simply presumed I was saying and/or made up herself). I pointed out the misunderstanding to her, keeping things to the issues as much as possible (instead of personal criticism). Nothing came of it, and I’m not exactly holding my breath for an apology. Bottom line, people will attack, sometimes they’ll come from a place of cruelty, arrogance, and false-assumptions, saying things that have a lot of potential to hurt and/or create confusion, and that are designed to directly or indirectly demonstrate their own personal superiority they’ll be unfair. It does happen here.”
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you are referring to me in this part of your post.
I resent your malicious implications that I misunderstood what you wrote the other day.
I never ridiculed you, and I never made anything up, either.
I simply responded to your post regarding the 8 bullet points you listed about “testing” people.
I disagree with that view and I voiced my opinion.
EVERYONE can read the exchange for themselves.
It’s over on the “Violence In Sociopaths” thread.
I stand by everything I posted, even MORE SO today.
I only responded to that post ONCE.
The second time I posted to you was in response to YOUR question that YOU directed at ME!
I find your attempt to re-write history, and frame yourself as a victim who is now in need of an apology very disturbing and insidious.
I honestly don’t understand why you continue to fixate on a brief exchange between the two of us that happened the other day.
I gave you the last word in that exchange, so I really don’t understand what your problem is with me.
UNLESS……I said something that struck a nerve.
I’m finished with this discussion.
Rosa, I’d like us to part company. I’m at a loss to really appreciate your issues, and where you’re coming from, and it seems mutual.
I wish you the best, but want it to be from a healthy distance.
Thank your interest in my post, and I hope you find all that you’re looking for on this site.
Let’s not interact anymore, unless one of us has a change of heart, okay?
Psyche
Hi Blueskies,
Moving right along to something more positive, I just wanted to say I can relate – I had school friends like that too, who liked to put me down just to prop themselves up. I just recently started catching on to the dynamic and putting those ‘friendships’ to rest (I still have female friends like this as an adult). I think these ‘friends’ picked me to be their ‘friend’ so that I could be like a prop on their stage. Whenever they wanted to have someone to make a joke about, or put down to feel good about themselves, there I was. I feel like it’s definitely patterned behavior, and I walked right into it, because those same ‘friends’ would prime me, to keep me around, with gifts and favors when they weren’t using me in their superiority shows.
I know my conditioned behavior from childhood encouraged it, mainly because I never really believed in myself, and always felt inferior (Self Esteem, I agree with you and Erin, is essential, –for me, it’s the missing ingredient that could have changed just about everything before things got really ugly in my life). Not having self esteem has pretty much made me an easy target my whole life. Still can’t say I feel good enough about myself to really completely put a stopper in the actions of ‘friends’ like that, but at least I recognize the behavior/tactic when I see it coming now, and can think of some half-effective way of dealing with it (I never saw the dynamic before, for 36 years! I was such a blind fool to it, total sucker, I hate to say).
Anyway, that’s all from me for now, time for some work. xo
Psyche
OMG!!!! We are all on this website because we were somehow damaged by unhealty people, please, please,please, put those differences aside. We should be a sisterhood, brotherhood of survivors. Difference of opinion? That’s ok, but respectfully.
The people on LF are as real to me as some of my real life friends, cuz frankly, unless you have been with a spath, you cannot understand the abuse that goes on. Some of my friends say “Oh, you’re not going to work it out? I guess you decided to divorce?” You try living with senior psychopath and then question that decision.
I have one real life friend who truely ‘gets its’ because she had an emotionally abusive husband, but was that way only in private. She can totally see that people can wear masks.
Now Jazzy was hurt, and I understand her hurt. I hope she still will believe in this place.
There are posters on this site that I question their motives because I’m coming from a place of mis-trust. Maybe they are truely sick and can’t make the next step of getting out of victimhood or maybe they are jacking us around. Not my call. I will just chose not to reply or engage. I do appreciate the ‘old timers’ who have boundaries, it’s positive and necessary. It is how they have had to learn, the hard way, how to weed out people who will take advantage of this system.
I don’t know about anyone else, but right now I am damaged, if people post on LF with evil intent, I want it gone. Perhaps I’ll get to the less ptsd stage, but it isn’t about me. This LF site is about us, all of us. We are each unique and special and deserve a place to heal. If psych gives me 10 steps to protect myself (or whatever # it was) I will listen and learn. I obviously wasn’t able to assess who was good or bad for me before. But if Rosa doesn’t like those steps, that’s ok too.
Don’t you get it? We are in it together. Like it or not.
Hope:
Unfortunatley, there is no ‘screening’
to ‘membership’ on the lf site. This is why Donna has the simple rule of respect and support.
We don’t know what peeps intent is/are when they come here and post.
Initially we can give benefit of doubt……then they quickly reveal themselves. We can use the Report abusive comment button and Donna will take care of.
There are some who come here to raise a ‘devils advocate’ type approach and poke. It’s borderline, but not crossing the line totally……..BUT…..we can also learn from these posters too.
How we respond (whether by posting or just the effect) to anything is a lesson to us……when we get angry, frustrated, whatever…..it’s a good time to self reflect and familiarize ourselves with US!
Bottom line…..there is NO perfect forum….and dynamics will always play a roll everywhere…..
and we just need to do the best for ourselves, because ‘we walk alone….with only our shadow’.
XXOO
EB
Hi Hopeforjoy,
I’m sorry that you’re upset. I just have to be involved in more positive exchanges than the kind above, where people can talk about why an idea, behavior, belief or an issue is flawed, good, bad, harmful, etc. … with respect for why someone thinks an IDEA or BEHAVIOR is messed up. That keeps things impersonal and healthy enough for me to stay involved, and I really like those kinds of exchanges. They’re not always 100% fun and flattering to the people involved, and I don’t think anyone hopes for 100% agreement, just the right to express ourselves as best we can, with the knowledge that sometimes we may need to clarify discussions to keep the peace, and to gain what we do from the exchanges.
But I can’t support personally directed scorn.
Peace out,
Psyche