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By | December 1, 2007 48 Comments

Choosing a love partner? Beware of The Dark Triad

Choosing a life partner is the most difficult task young adults face. Furthermore, due to mistakes in choices, older adults also find themselves single and choosing again. The desire to have a life partner comes from our needs for sex and companionship; but, given how difficult it is to compete in society, the desire for a mate also may be influenced by more practical matters. In choosing a mate, sexual attractiveness, compatibility and social status all factor in to the equation. To avoid a mistake, then, it is necessary to be aware how sexual attractiveness, compatibility and social status influence our choices, and to couple this awareness with an understanding of the qualities that make a good life partner.

The problem with sexual attractiveness is that “beauty is only skin deep,” and many people, especially men, place too much of an emphasis on sexual attractiveness when choosing a mate. A choice based on sexual attractiveness has a high likelihood of being an incorrect one. Erotic passion clouds judgment and prevents us from considering compatibility and practical matters in our choices. The good news is that we do not have to allow ourselves to be seduced by beauty, and if we are, we have only ourselves to blame.

Once we get beyond sexual attractiveness, compatibility and status concerns weigh into our decisions. This is where the Dark Triad comes in. The Dark Triad of personality represents those who make their partners miserable. The Dark Triad is Psychopathy, Narcissism and Machiavellianism. To varying degrees, all three personality types entail a dark, interpersonally destructive character with tendencies toward grandiosity, emotional callousness, manipulation and dominance. Psychopaths and Machiavellians have high self- esteem, and are charming and fun but psychopaths are also impulsive and cunning. Narcissists are grandiose and have high self esteem, and may also be intellectually gifted. Research has shown that these three personality types are all a bit different and yet also highly overlap.

A common theme underlies The Dark Triad; that theme is a preoccupation with dominance and power. Personality tests of Machiavellianism come the closest to identifying non-criminal psychopaths. There are high correlations between these three personality tests in college students who take all three tests. The numbers indicate that these three concepts are different but have some common underlying theme. That theme is pleasure in power.

The Dark Triad

I want to explain why a preoccupation with dominance and power makes a person a poor mate. A gut level, emotional understanding of this subject (as opposed to an intellectual understanding) is especially important for women who very often choose mates on the basis of status concerns. Psychopaths, Machiavellians and Narcissists all commit love fraud in that these people also want mates but are incapable of love. Many people, especially women, naively believe that all people who claim to want a mate, and say “I love you,” do indeed, love. Why would an unloving person even want a mate? The answer is power.

Within every person there are two levels to social motives. The first, superficial level is a general desire to be around people. It is rare for people to be so disordered that they lack the desire to be around others. A temporary lack of desire can come with depression and other illness, but I am referring to a constitutional lack of desire. This is only seen in schizophrenia and autism spectrum disorders. It is important to know, then, that there is a whole host of disordered people who want to be around others and who do not enjoy being alone—among these are Psychopaths, Machiavellians and Narcissists.

The second, deeper, social motives are sex, affection/love and dominance/power. A romantic relationship that is based on sex and love is pleasant, fulfilling and leads to well-being. Please hear me, a romantic relationship can also be based on sex and dominance/power. These relationships undermine the well-being of the subordinate partner. Since people who are motivated a great deal by personal dominance do not really like being around other dominant people, they are less likely to get caught up in or stay in a relationship with a power-hungry dominant. It is loving people who end up trapped with a member of The Dark Triad.

People who are more loving may still want status, they just prefer not to personally compete for it. This preference also attracts them to The Dark Triad. It might seem good to have a mate who does the competing and goes after the status. There are studies showing that Machiavellians who are stockbrokers, bankers and salespersons make more money. Psychopaths and Machiavellians often do better than control subjects in competitive laboratory games.

The conditions of The Dark Triad are especially common in America. Our child rearing practices deemphasize love and communion, and train children to be competitive and independent. Rarely, we produce individuals who are great leaders, who are loving and yet effectively competitive. We would all probably want such a person as a mate, but please realize that these individuals are relatively rare. More likely, we face a choice between loving and competitive traits.

Many women are turned off by “nice guys” who are lower in status drive. Guess what, though, studies of college students show that guys who are high in Machiavellian traits are very likely to coerce sex and commit date rape. The acceptance of competitive men who do this is so ingrained in our society that many blame the woman who made the mistake of going to the guy’s apartment.

I was out biking with a male friend the other day and we discussed the subject of sexual attraction and dominance motives. My friend also said that some men are “attracted to bitches.” “Some men really like that,” he said, referring to dominant women. It appears, then, that both men and women may be attracted to those who behave dominantly, even though this may actually signal the person’s undesirability.

Why is it so hard to have it all? Why is it rare that a person is both loving/empathetic and effectively dominant/competitive? The reason is that affection and dominance motives are not compatible. We can be motivated by a combination of sex and love or a combination of sex and power, but we cannot simultaneously experience love and power motives.

Furthermore, dwelling in the power realm suppresses the development of empathy. Empathy is a skill that must be nurtured and practiced. Empathy, if not practiced, diminishes. We are designed this way because assertion of dominance often necessitates overt or covert aggression. How can we be aggressive toward someone we have empathy for? We can’t, thus the most loving people are the least aggressive and the least domineering.

If you are in a relationship and are considering a deeper commitment, or are attracted to someone and considering a relationship, please take stock of what I have said. Consider the person’s Inner Triangle, don’t go after The Dark Triad.

The Inner Triangle is our Ability to Love, Impulse Control and Moral Reasoning. Seek to surround yourself with loving people who have morals and impulse control. Avoid, at all costs, connecting with a member of The Dark Triad.


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What if you are a member of the Dark Triad? What if all of a sudden you wake up at 40 and realize all your life you’ve been controlling, domineering, lacking in real empathy, lacking a real connection to family and friends that is deeper than what you can get out of the relationship?

What if something wakes you up – a traumatic event, the relationships you’ve destroyed, the friends you’ve lost, and the trust of your family?

What if you read this and said… this is saying that others should avoid you..that you are somehow not worthy of other’s friendship or love?

This would be it’s own hell wouldn’t it? It would feel like all the hurt you’ve caused over your life coming back to you all at once. You’d say to yourself..”My God what have I done?” The pain would be too much to bear, too horrible to endure, wouldn’t it?

I see in myself how domineering, controlling, and somewhat insincere I have been in my life. I look back and see the hurt I have caused to others with my words, my lack of understanding that what I was doing was actually causing another pain.

Why did I do it? Fear, insecurity, it’s actually lack of self-esteem, self-loathing and a deep desire not to look at myself?

It was always the “other” that was unattractive, dirty, incompetent, stupid, selfish, greedy or unworthy. It was always, “Why do all these stupid people get to live happy lives with nice homes and I have to suffer worrying over paying my bills?”

What if all of a sudden, you realized it was YOU who was the ugly, stupid, selfish one?

What if one day you woke up and looked in the mirror and realized how much it was yourself you actually hated?

I have woken up and seen myself and don’t like what I see. Don’t like what I have done out of fear or desire for security and approval of others.

All the guilt and empathy I rarely if ever felt has come upon me all at one time. It is unbearable.

All my impulsiveness and lack of self-control have brought me to where I am today. Alone, aging, sick, thin, pallad and depressed.

I could blame my ex and say he was the sociopath and yes – he has those tendencies, but his was different, he was the people-pleaser, the everyone loves him guy, the one who may or may not have stolen from his employers, lied and did some horrific things to me at the end of our relationship.

I treated him like crap just about every day we were together because I felt he was “not good enough for me.” No matter how he tried to love me show me affection buy me things… nothing was good enough. To me he would never amount to anything…he would always have a “record” would never get a real job, would always squander his money, would make us live in poverty and fear.

I failed to see – that it was me…I was not good enough for me. I pushed away his affection which made his issues worsen. I made him feel worse about himself.

I pushed and pushed and pushed until we both just snapped. He is now living in a welfare motel and has a 21 year old “fiance” who would do anything for him. She has a menial job, and is looking for a new apartment so they can live happily ever after.

Where am I? Still living with my roommate who I used to date. My business is not doing well, I got a parttime job paying $25 an hour and I am miserable, lonely and jealous. I feel ugly, old and stupid. In short, I don’t want to live with myself anymore. I am afriad to go out because I don’t want anyone to see me.

I fear all I have left to look forward too is more suffering, wrinkles, disease, misery and eventually a painful death.

I thought I was “it.” I thought I had it all, I thought I was better than everyone else, smarter, cuter, funnier, that I would always look 25. I was the “bitch” and he was the “sweet one.” Who was acting and who was real is hard to tell anymore.

I look around and everyone is suffering and I was indifferent to their suffering. Now I “feel” for everyone. I talk to friends whose hopes and dreams of marriage with someone has ended or whose son’s girlfriend killed their baby, or whose daughter’s boyfriend is abusive, or my sister who has no money and is a single mother raising two kids…it goes on and on and on.

The reason I was the way I was…is because I didn’t want to suffer like these people. I didn’t want to feel that pain and hurt… I didn’t want to be a victim. To me to have empathy for others was to have to “feel their pain.” In my mind, I had enough of my own pain.

I am sick of all the suffering. I am tired of all the pain. How much longer can this go on?

Thank you for listening.

Beverly

Strangely, within the last week, I was looking at a website about narcissism, thinking that I thought my ex was a sociopath, but now thinking his behaviour equates more to narcissism, then I realised it doesnt really matter what label he has, they all belong to the same group. I have been away from him for 3 months now, but my friends say that I am still constantly talking about him – trying to piece together what he has actually been up to, especially as when things got too close for comfort he would ‘run for th hills’. Even raised concern in my voice about his behaviour, would usually result in him stopping communication – he used to hide behind his mobile phones – and then I would find a bag of my things dumped on my doorstep the next morning – followed by a barrage of abusive text messages, intimating that he was going to bin all traces of me – hardly the behaviour of a loving partner! The strange thing, is then when we first met, I was very unsure of him and he said things to me that put me on red alert. I remember him telling me that he was ‘very dominant’ in relationships – I was quite scared about this, but he never justified what he meant. He was also into S & M, so I thought it might be something to do with that. About 6 weeks into the relationship he told me he loved me, and when he used to say this, I used to look back at him in disbelief because there was not feeling with it. The he would tell me ‘Believe me – I really really really love you’. Something inside me was not convinced. I have not see nor heard from him in the last 3 months, but he sent a message through a mutual friend, saying that he had found a younger girlfriend. Most of my friends do not understand and have not heard of a sociopath and dont undersand the insidious mental torment he put me under.

I have had other broken relationships in the past, but none of them have had this kind of emotional effect on me, and for so long afterwards. If I could only find a way of wiping him out of my thoughts. I had alot of bad dreams when I was with him too. One of the dreams I had, was that I was in a house with large windows and the devil was throwing stones at the windows trying to menace me. I still question how I got sucked in as I am an intelligent woman – although I wasnt totally fooled, because I checked up on him alot and I knew that it would only be a matter of time before I found out – although I dont truly know the full extent of what he has been up to. At first, although he was not the kind of man I had in mind, I had not been in a relationship for 19 years – bringing up my child. But then he seemed decent enough, reliable, attentive, seemed to have personal integrity, clean and tidy, giving me lots of compliments.

After the first few months, I decided to sleep with him – but he started messing me around sexually, tired, unavailable etc, which I thought was very strange. Then I thought he didnt fancy me. Then of course I was suspicious about the 11 mobile phones he had. When he then invited me to his room in a shared house, I was shocked at how squalid it was. For a man who had worked over 20 years and 60 hours a week – he had next to nothing. Also he would often run out of money quite quickly after being paid, he also gambled on slot machines and I wondered whether he had hidden expenditure. His S & M habits are not easily satisfied by main stream women – so I actually wondered whether he was paying a prostitute, especially as he would be unavailable one day a week after being paid on a Monday – and that was why he was always broke. I felt like I was on an emotional roller coaster with him, and remember telling him this, together with statements, like ‘you are constantly sending me mixed messages’.

In the early stages, I was aware that some of his behaviour felt ‘WRONG’ but I kept some of my thoughts to myself and just observed him. If I mentioned any of it to him, he always seemed to have a reasonable excuse. So I went from feeling extremely concerned to then feeling ok, from thinking the worst to thinking that maybe I was over reacting. I realised that he was extremely devious and had used words in our relationship that I would never think of using. He even criticised a friend of his who was having an affair,saying he couldnt abide infidelity – to give me the impression he was honourable. What deceit. In the end, when I was onto his deceit and invited him to talk things over – he declined and I gave him an ultimatum – either you tell me about all these loose ends or you collect your stuff from my house! He ecided to collect his stuff, and without waiting for me to come home, I came back to my house to find my front door open and he was bundling his stuff in the bag as fast as he could to get away. He said not a word to me and left. A month later I remembered I had a mobile phone he asked to borrow back in May – I thought this a strange request, because the phone was a cheap phone – nothing like his expensive ones. I checked it and he had left intimate messages on it which he had sent out to a woman at work. I rang her – she denied it. I kept thinking why would a man who is very familiar with his phones not check to erase the messages or the womens phone numbers I had found on his other phone – probably because that was his cowardly and sardonic way of telling me. I then wrote him an angry letter telling him what a deceitful coward he was, enclosing the mobile phone smashed into pieces. I felt so angry and betrayed, I wanted to smash him to pieces. He then sent his sister round to warn me off and she said that if I contacted him anymore I could be accused of harrassment – bearing in mind I had only ever written to him twice over that time. I realised he knew the rules of his game very well – then the awful realisation hit me, that I had been part of a hurtful game and I had been manipulated and treated badly and that he had carefully prepared all his exit routes. When I realised that, I had to get rid of him – it almost felt like a life or death struggle. I already looked ill and depleted, friends were telling me I looked so exhausted. I had so many bad dreams and signs that he was an emotional vampire. I felt that if I stayed with him, he would drain the life out of me – IT WAS EITHER HIM OR ME – AND IT HAD TO BE ME!

Beverly

He would say that some women were predatory. He said that all women are manipulative. I have never heard these terms used before. I now realise that these were his own projections of himself.

apt/mgr

I so agree with your comments. After suffering years of emotional abuse by my husband, I met a man who I thought was truly my knight and he became my knightmare. He was wrapped in such a nice package and he noticed me. He said he had been married 3 times, but in my needy state of mind and brokenness, my first thought was what woman in her right mind would let a man like this go and if he had that many women, he must know how to treat a woman. I was so incredibly naive and so very vulnerable. He saw all that and used it all against me. He knew what he was doing and I didn’t.

Once this man gained my trust and knew that I found him sexually attractive, he almost made mince meat out of my emotions. I figured because I only had such negative experience with men and he’s had so much experience with women, it had to be me. I again, was jumping through hoops to try and please this gorgeous looking man. I went through my own metamorphosis to try and make myself so much better for him, physically. I changed my hairstyle, added makeup, lost weight. I was looking real good. Others told me, but I didn’t care what others thought. I wanted this man to want me, because my husband hadn’t and even though I changed, my husband still didn’t but this new man, saw me and he seemed to like what he saw.

But all he saw was an easy target. He had so many ulterior motives and I didn’t see what he was about, because I was in the depths of despair and truly thought he was my answer. Through the course of his attention, he played so many mind games, that he had to lay awake at nights to figure out new ways to get to me.

I went through a 7 month period where he wouldn’t come around to see me, but he would drive past my office 3-4 times a day to see if I was there but wouldn’t stop. If I saw him out, I would ask, why. He would always say he’s been so busy. I just wanted to have this friendship with him that he said we had. I didn’t know he was playing this horrible hard to get game. He was wearing me down, to the point where I’d be so desperate to see him, I’d do almost anything to keep him around. That’s what he did and I had no idea until many years later, when my pain had subsided, and I was finally able to see through eyes wide open. He got over $12,000 out of me, plus interest on my credit cards. I maxed out cards for him, to pay his bills. Basically what I paid for was a stupid friendship.

I ended up having to file bankruptcy, but I turned the tables on him and got half of my money back. I knew by then that he was playing games, so I played some of my own and messed with his head. I knew he wanted sex, but he knew I wouldn’t have sex outside of marriage. I had talked with his third wife and she told me that he doesn’t want a friendship unless he gets sex. That’s a sick kind of man, but I was too blinded and inexperienced to know what to look for, so I fell hard for him, only because of the state of my neediness. So I kind of led him on and told him that I was divorcing my husband, which is my plan, and I needed my money to get my start in life. I don’t where he got the money,but suddenly I had the half. The other half had been put on my mortgage and that didn’t go into the bankruptcy. But I did get that much from him.

I’ve since learned that he basically is the kind of man who lets the woman pay. He’s so full of himself, that when I complained of how little time he devotes to me as a friend and that he doesn’t reciprocate, he went so far as to say that I should be glad he even stops. I said he should be glad I let him.

I have learned the hard way that all that glitters really isn’t gold. I’ve learned that this man, who I thought really had it together, is very paranoid, insecure, a cheater, lies, was told by several that he’s very lazy, etc. I hate so badly to label someone, but that’s his character, according to his behavior. That’s other’s opinions, too, based on his behavior. He, too, almost did me in, but with God’s help, he didn’t break me. He is a major control freak. Everything has to be according to his schedule and time table. He has no respect for a woman’s time, unless he can use her. She usually doesn’t know what hit her. I talked with his third wife, after the fact, and she said he’ll nail you to the wall with words. She said, too, that she was on the verge of a nervous break down after she got away from him. I urge anyone to look behind the scenes before they get involved with anyone. Check out the courthouse for records.

I did afterwards and wasn’t impressed with what I found. I checked out his divorces and found all three divorced him for the same reason. Indignities. Mental cruelty. And he is a very cruel man. He uses a woman until he drains her so dry, that she cracks. But in the meantime he’s cheating on her and using up her resources. He does it all in such a way, that a lot is difficult to prove. That is the most frustrating part. I’ve said that he has such a way with words, that he could talk the pants off a nun. What an experience. It took so long to get back what he took and I don’t just mean the money. They have a way of causing one to doubt their own sanity.

I could see something with my own eyes, and he’d deny it. What a mess he caused and I’m sure he’s causing it for someone else too. I could write a book on the happenings of what should have been a simple, platonic friendship. He is sexually driven and has way too many secrets to have a normal relationship. I’ve learned that no matter what the outside looks like, it’s the inside that says it all. And if they start out mentioning sex and money in almost the same breath, run. If you get stood up once, run. He’ll just keep on doing it. I had no idea that people could call themselves human and do such inhumane things to a woman. Overt and covert abuse. I’ve experienced it all.

When I tried to get my money back, we fought. A lot. I would threaten him and he would get almost violent. He threw me against my refrigerator then wanted to hug me and me hug him back. Is that sick or what? I could go on and on, but I have learned a valuable lesson. These men are out there preying on women like myself. They use our weaknesses to extract money. They tell us what we want to hear. If I could only go back. I can’t but I have sure learned. If I hadn’t lived it I wouldn’t have believed it, so I know why people are skeptical. I have promised myself that I will never be that needy again. Sex without real love is nothing more than a bodily function. Before one gets involved, it’s perfectly alright to go behind the scenes and see firsthand how this person conducts his personal life. What he says isn’t necessarily what he means and just maybe isn’t who he is.

Beverly

To holehearted. My ex told me early on, that he had ‘demons in a box’. I probed him alot about this and he said it was to do with the abusive childhood he had to stomach. I thought he had a firm grip on his past. Then I realised that his demons were leaking out all over the place. In my mind, the only way forward is to look those demons in the face, like the rest of us, feel the pain and bear the responsibility instead of using other people as surrogates, otherwise the hell just gets perpetuated. I was trying to get my ex to confront his demons to stop running away – he was well aware that his past has ruined his life – he is 41 and very lonely and craves love, all his relationships have never lasted long – when women see what he is like, they make excuses and leave. He had that love and companionship from me – I vowed to stand by him – but then his demons got the better of him and he reverted to his old habits. I felt I was sacrificing myself for him and that is not right, I was relating to his demons, but he sidetracked me, because not only was it about his childhood, but it was also about his coping behavior after that, but he kept that secret. I think he had long periods where he was not in a relationship because he knows what damage he causes, but then his loneliness gets the better of him. Because I had a dysfunctional childhood, I thought, I better than anybody could understand and support him, but the one thing he couldnt do, was admit his vulnerability and his pain to me.

Beverly

Apt/mgr. I called my ex my Knight in rusty armour – its strange reading other people’s accounts how we all seem to use similar descriptions. The other thing I kept saying to him at the time when i first met him, was that he reminded me of Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer – the vampire who lives in the dark but tries to hang out with the good guys. When I first met him, I thought perhaps he was on his own because he had high ideals in a woman, hadnt met the right one, childhood holding him back. I am a kind person who always wants to give the ‘underdog’ a chance. I think I knew early on I was playing with fire. I too could write a book about all the bizarre things that happened. I invited him for a drink, he declined and then he let me know he was sitting in the pub opposite but he wouldnt come over to me – and I was dammed if I was going to go over to him. I sat in my pub and watched him cycle past where I was – and he knew I was there – I knew from that he was playing mind games. What loving boyfriend wouldnt want to visit their love. I was about to inherit some money and he bought me flowers, gave me gifts and money and I think he had finally (if temporarily) decided that I was the one- but I dropped him from a great height, dumped him – so I guess in some ways I got my own back. Maybe I wasnt so daft after all. What I have done though is to turn this experience to my advantage to learn how I perform in relationships, how healthy relationships work, how my childhood has affected my life and at 54 this is something I never thought I would experience. I understand your shock at being betrayed and abused – but I was a person with very soft boundaries – I would overlook people’s faults, give them the benefit of the doubt. In my best interests I have had to toughen up my act. He was written me off in favour of another and probably hasnt learned anything – but I have learnt a huge amount as a result of this, and probably if we are going to be the winners – this is what we have to do.

apt/mgr

Beverly,
It’s comforting to know we haven’t really been duped. It has nothing to with being a dumb blond. I, too, am just a kind person who wants to believe in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. The one of whom I speak has run out of benefits. It feels so good to say take a hike. I am 57 and sure don’t have to take anything from anyone anymore. He is going to be 60 and he’s very sensitive about his age, so I like to remind him. I kind of dumped him by sending him a text message and told him that I don’t like the person he’s become. I told him he’s a mean,nasty, grumpy old man. He’s started hanging out with 2 gay senior citizens. I’m not sure what that means. But he gets very defensive when I mention their friendship must mean more to him than I do, because he won’t even initiate a lunch with me and seems to spend time with them, and he hasn’t had that relationship for long. But then again he’s always kept secrets.

I finally got back bone and when I found out something that he lied to me about, I took great pleasure in bringing into conversation what I know, just to get his reaction. I used to be intimidated by him, but I can match him word for word. He can’t talk me down anymore. I finally realized I had nothing to lose. From what I’ve found out, he’s lost the only one who ever liked him. So he can live his phony life and live with himself, because no one else wants to. I actually feel sorry for people like him. It must be a miserable existence to have to deceive people to relate to them. I sometimes thought they think we think like they do, so they are going to get to us before we can do them. It’s just some big stupid game, and someone eventually gets hurt.

He might have gotten money from me, but he didn’t achieve his ultimate goal, which I feel was to finally marry me, to control me and get more money. No way. I’ve told him I’m on to him and he has to get up mighty early to do what he used to do. I don’t need him. And I have won. I have come away intact. I never got a college education, but I gained more knowledge from dealing with him. It gave me the strength I needed to survive. I’m to the point now where if anyone wants something they have to ask, and I have the prerogative of saying, NO. The control is in my hands. Oh,if I could have just known all this 30 years ago. My youngest daughter wouldn’t have had to go through what she did.

I always thought when you had a man and woman, you had the main ingredients for family. I was the one who should have been the insecure one. My mother died when I was seven. My dad had his own agenda and sent another sister and I to live with our older sister the day my mom was buried. So I kind of lost both parents the same day. I come from a very dysfunctional family, but for some reason I knew how I wanted to do life to avoid all that. I did, but my husband didn’t. He’s the one who changed so drastically almost immediately after we married and it just kept getting worse. But as I’ve said, I didn’t have to die to prove anything. I’m much older and wiser and know what to look for now. I’m so glad for this site and a few others that keep us informed. It’s good to be in the know. I don’t say what I say to pass judgment. I think their actions judge them and we discern what kinds of people we are dealing with and if we are on the same page. I guess I’ll miss the person my husband and the friend, were to begin with. Too bad that wasn’t real.

Beverly

apt/manager
From your words, I connect with what you say. My ex kept telling me that gay men were attracted to him. This freaked me out, because I suspected he was concealing his sexual identity. In the end you just dont know what is hype, manipulation or what is real. He was mentioning things to me,, I think he was testing me out, he was cooking up ideas of things he wanted to do to test my reaction. That day in the market when I am convinced he asked to go there, so he could meet a woman, perhaps to show her who I was. It was an unreal situation and there were many other bizarre events, some of which are unmentionable. He was very agitated when he found out I spoke to his ex girlfriend. I asked her what he was like with her and she told me that he was very controlling and possessive. With me he was the opposite, in terms of being distant and when I tested him by saying that men were showing an interest in me, he didnt seem that bothered. I realised that from his x to me, he had modified his approach. I tested him out many times and as much as he was being devious, he didnt know the half of what I did to check on him. I was almost on the point of hiring a detective. Luckily he never got any money out of me, but he was constantly borrowing money from other people and selling possessions he had just bought. I agree it is sad, that he may never live a normal life and yes, they almost perpetuate the very thing they fear and yes that shows deep fear of abandonment and rejection and at the start I was detrmined to be the one who wouldnt do that. But for my own sanity, I had to look out for myself. You have got to have lived through the experience to understand what it is truly like and how bizzare some of it is. My ex was not at all wealthy or high status, the opposite. Many times I questioned what I actually found attractive about him. He had a gruff irritable temperament, would comment out loud to people/strangers he found irritating. He had a particular dislike of children. His manner was very black and white, rigid and he always seemed tense. It had been a long time since I had a boyfriend, and I think that by choosing a low status mate I somehow thought that he knew what was good for him, he would submit/committ to me – guaranteed. My life is technicolour, his is grey – at the start he liked my technicolour world. But he never ever shared his inner self with me. He kept his thoughts strictly private. On asking him what he dreams about when asleep – he told me he didnt dream. He didnt permit me access to his inner world, but he used that as a carrot, that I might be the one who had the key to unlock him. Why I got so bound up in all his drama I will never know. But from studying a little Buddhist info, I have really come to know what the dangers of attachment are to people. I felt a double whammy of pain, because whilst this went on, it regurgitated childhood pain around my father who was a controlling, cold, superior man – and although at the start of the relationship I was alert for signs of not getting with someone like my dad, the weird thing is that they are both very similar.

EnnLondon

I’m amused you mention dreams. My boyfriend really was brilliant at analysing dreams(genuinely) using Freud. It was another way to control!

I wish I could speak to a sociopath and get an honest response (is it possible, ever?) to know exactly what they feel like and where their happiness comes from. They can’t know sadness like we do, but they do panic like mad sometimes don’t they and do more and more bizarre things? If they like the melodrama do they ever actually suffer? They want so much, yet they all seem (however talented they are) to end up with very little, seems to be out of choice as well. How is this?!

apt/mgr

Beverly,
You must have been going with the man who insisted we were friends. He, too, wouldn’t talk about his inner self. I thought that so weird, because in my work, I’m around men a lot and they want to talk. If I asked him too what he dreams, he said he doesn’t or just doesn’t pay attention. He would give rather arrogant remarks or just plain haughty comments. I would have to say the only period of time I saw what might have been a sense of closeness, was when he was manipulating me to get money, hoping for sex. But to exhibit real emotions, I kept getting the feeling that he was pretending.

He went through a time where he was always having kidney stones and wanted my reaction. He even went so far as to call me from the hospital and left me a message to the effect, I don’t know if you’re interested or not, but I’m in the hospital. I called him and asked his problem. He was rather vague, and said, you know. The usual. I said and what would that be. Of course, kidney stones. But then my husband imagined he had bone cancer and was off work for several months. I feel in my experiences with men, that they have wanted a mother figure. I’m a rather motherly person, but only to children and my children. Certainly not to a man I might consider for a partner.

As for his sexual preference, I have to really question that, too. There was a time, many years ago, that I slipped but I didn’t fall. I really wanted to consummate our relationship simply because I wanted so badly to feel like a woman and just wanted that intimacy. Well it turns out his idea of sex was rather bizarre. It had nothing to do with what I would consider normal relations. He wanted to masturbate on my body. That’s when I realized that I was nothing more than an object to him and he just wanted to use a body for his pleasure. I was so thankful at that point that nothing more happened and asked God’s forgiveness for wanting something that was wrong in His sight.

That in itself opened my eyes even more to his bizarre behavior and caused me to start watching him even more closely. I think, and I’m sure sex experts would disagree, but what a man thinks of when he is having sex, kind of determines his preference and just how he wants sex. This man showed me a side to him, that kind of made me uncomfortable. Then when he just suddenly becomes friends with two old gay guys, I really questioned him. He said if he was friends with six coal miners, would that make him a coal miner? He just didn’t get it. As I said, I’m not judging him for him, but for me. I don’t want to align myself with someone who can’t be trusted, does really weird things, keeps secrets, and resents any question. He takes exception to most anything you ask.

I thought when I met him, that he had to have it together. That he would be so much fun to do life with. Thank God, He spared me that. I guess I needed to go through all this to be able to take care of myself. I really had no idea that men could and would do the things they do. At first this man who was also my insurance agent, would make appointments and not show up, or be late. Anything for a show. I realize now. I got onto his games and if he was late, I’d leave. Then he’d wonder where I was. He didn’t like it when I did it to him.

The thing too, I’ve noticed is they think they are an original, but they just do what so many do and they aren’t in the least unique. I told him one time to try the truth. It’s much more fun than playing his baby games.

But I’ve thought, too, if deep inside, he might represent an image of my father. This man is tall and so was my dad. This man sells insurance and so did my dad at one time. But I don’t really look at this man as a father figure. I don’t know. I just know I’ve been saved from an awful fate. I’m so thankful my eyes have been fully opened before I made a move in his direction. I’m so glad I’ve been able to observe him from a distance and see what he does that I think isn’t of the norm.

He too, got livid when I told him I talked with his exes. He didn’t want me to find out just what kind of man he really is. But truth always prevails. They can’t wear that facade forever. It slips and the real emerges and it’s not a pretty picture. He takes very good care of the outside, but the inside is very messed up. He is very nice to men, but it seems he’s only nice to women when he can dominate them and use them. Once he’s had his fill and he’s bored, he treats them with contempt. Sad commentary for a life lived.

Only someone who has been around this type of person knows what an empty way of life it is. You have to weigh each word, because they take exception to most anything, although they can say what they want. When I was trying to get my money back, and resorted to threatening, he came storming into my office and said he ought to kill me, gut me and stuff it down my throat. I said go ahead. I’d just vomit all over him. But it was that kind of talk, that made me wonder where it came from and just what else might be there. Al least we can all feel each other’s pain. It’s just sad to go through all those years and have them lived in vain, as far as connecting to a mate. Turns me off.

apt/mgr

Question, If a sociopath, narcissist, etc., read a description of their behavior as viewed through their partners, parents, etc., could they see themselves as we do or would they just distort that, too? I know when I’ve tried to point out a behavior, he would turn it around and said I imagined it. Can they really not see themselves for the horrible actions they perform, or are they so full of themselves, that to them, we are just singling them out to pick them apart?

Beverly

The only emotion I ever saw my ex show – was irritation and anger. He had a rigid personality, he treated everything and everyone in a black and white way, and was a master of using his ‘brick wall’ to distance or block. He said to me once ‘I aint kow towing to no-one,, especially you!’ I misread this at the start, thinking that he was assertive, together, principled, not realising this is his defence. I was often on tender hooks, being careful what I said and I constantly had a lump in my throat. I felt at times, he was like a snake that I didnt want to antagonise. When I did speak up for myself, he would say to me ‘if you keep your mouth shut everything will be fine’. I am not to person to keep my mouth shut for long, and as soon as I raised concerns about his hint dropping, bizarre behaviour he would punish me by restricting communication. I know what normal loving behaviour should be and he couldnt maintain the pretense for very long. At first I thought he was committment phobic, but it wasnt until the end that I realised the real extent of what he had been doing and who he truly was – this I found truly shocking

Beverly

I was fooled at the beginning – he doesnt hit women – he must be safe, not realising that he planned to chip away at my mental health to weaken me. How I stopped my life falling apart I will never know. I still went to work, but he wanted me to give up work, but I knew he was too unstable to put my security in his hands. We had so many break ups, it was like he was pressing the reset button each time, creating turbulent undercurrents that I knew were wrong but couldnt put my finger on. Each time, after a short while, when I thought it was all over, he would contact me out of the blue, not discussing what had passed, but seeming pleased to have got me back. Then he would ask me if he could punish me through his S & M behaviours. I would say absolutely not, that I had done nothing to be punished for.

My question is:- when they have moved onto the next person, as he has, is it likely he might try to come back and carry out some kind of revenge. He has gone to ground at the moment and is keeping a low profile, which is making me feel nervous.

EnnLondone,

If you want to talk to a sociopath and ask him a question – go to http://www.sociopathic.net/

At the top he has ASK as an option and you can ask him anything you want. I have had some email correspondence with him. He’s very intelligent…knows his disorder very well, and has a journal on there. His handle is Petronix.

If you want proof he’s a sociopath… read this section of his journal… where he is on a bus and gets all the people talking to one another… you feel a sense of kindness… then read his reactions to it afterwards. Clearly this is someone who hates the human race and has not yet realized he is part of the human race and thus – hates himself.

http://www.sociopathic.net/enter.htm

His blogs will sicken and delight you at the same time.

T

Beverly

What I have realised from my last comment is that, it is the perpetuation of the fear that keeps me hooked in the energy – ultimate control of another. When I was thinking of a mate, I had an idea of the kinds of qualities I would like – and that is exactly what I got – but with a twist. I am not a bible basher but I have faith, what I have realised is that I am limited and I have learnt alot through this. You truly get what you fear – in attracting someone with particular qualities, you think you have got yourself covered but in essence you are broadcasting the fear of the opposite of what you say you want in a person. The only thing I can do now, is to realise that I am limited and offer myself, to a good higher power in my life’s choices. People dont realise that this is deep stuff, it is soul work. If I am going to reconstruct myself – I am aiming to put myself back together better – but with higher power to guide me.

Beverly

I have read the blog from sociopath.net and whilst read where Petronix is coming from – ultimately he has a personality disorder and will play that out. My mother had schizophrenia and was well aware of it, but knowing it did not stop her acting out the symptoms. We hear the pain and that is why some of us have tried to rescue those in pain. Broadly speaking, our mannerisms and thinking patterns are different to those of a sociopath, we dont operate by stealth and manipulation. But some of us know what healthy love is – it is fulfilling, is sustaining and nourishing. Sick love is the opposite, it takes away, it depletes and erodes. In duality, there are always two sides – What is real- we have a choice in the side of the duality we choose

Beverly

I am a complex thinker – I think I am probably the only girlfriend who has actually sussed him out. I was onto his charade fairly early on. He may think that he has the better of me – but as I told him, he is no better than the sum total of his life behaviour – the proof is all there. There is no triumph in sick love, temporary satisfaction maybe, but it doesnt last. This is dark stuff – not good stuff – they can never win their game.

Beverly,

Yes he does play that out… but some of his blogs are honest and real and show glimpses of truth. Yes they are in pain, everyone is in pain. This is the universal truth. Everyone suffers and is looking for a way out.

Healthy love is unknown to me… thought I see it in other people’s lives and sometimes actually “feel” it. I am very used to “sick love” it is what I know…. it is as painful as anything you can imagine.

We are in this world of duality – pleasure/pain, love/hate, good/bad, high/low…. You say we can choose which side of the duality we are on… not true… one side will always pendulum swing you back to the other side.

Think of a bi-polar person… Excited, Happy, all the way to one extreme and then BLAM…down to the other extreme..depressed low as low. The higher the bi-polar gets… the lower their lows will be. Because the momentum of the pendulum swing propells you back to the other side…..

So the key is to make the swing less and less wide until it is somewhere down in the middle with little swings left right instead of HUGE swings.

That is I think what Buddha meant about the middle path.

“If the string is too loose it won’t play and if is is too tight it will SNAP.”

If we are too loose or too depressed or too low or too whatever… we can’t “play” can’t feel joy, can’t feel love, can’t have “fun”. However if we are too tight… too “high strung”, too far the other way… we will SNAP.

Wow… that really helped me…

I feel a little better today.

It’s snowing and I don’t have to do anything but stay in and drink hot cocoa. I love that feeling.

apt/mgr

As I continue to read the blogs, I feel like I am seeing myself in one way or other. I have always been a deep thinker. I think being left without a mother and father at an early age, caused me to think outside the box. I feel that I know how to love and to love without smothering, but I know so few men who do the same. I think so many of them are blinded by the lust that burns in their bodies and don’t know how to process the emotions that come out of that lust. So many of them acquaint affection with sex, so a normal woman, who just wants to hug and kiss her man, to show some semblance of the love inside, is bound to be subject to his lust at that very moment. They just don’t get it and don’t want to.

To the ones that had been in my life, I was just the object of their lust, but as for the rest of me, that didn’t count. I, too, walked around with a knot in my stomach waiting for the verbal eruptions. I’m not an angry person, and can’t relate to someone who screams for no known reason. Then after he was heard, would go off whistling and the rest of us wondered what just happened. I always loved the day to day routine of living. I never minded cooking and cleaning and all the rest, but my husband hated everything, except what he or others wanted. I felt for a very long time that I must be the most unlovable person ever, because he seemed to begrudge me everything, but willingly do for others. It took me finally getting out in the world to work, to find out just how messed up my marriage was.

That’s when I met this man who wanted us to be friends. Boy. Talk about a roller coaster ride. This, all before I knew what to look for in the way of red flags. I thought a man was just a man. This man has had so many relationships, but I figured he was the cause of the breakups, because he wouldn’t just trash them. He still knew what he did. He didn’t take the blame, but he didn’t blame either. He is just so warped in his thinking. He has very little to show for his 60 years of living. I know men and women think differently, but there shouldn’t be such a vast difference in the basic emotions.

Common courtesy and consideration shouldn’t be dictated by gender. I shudder when I think I thought for a long time this man was my destiny. The pretend him, was fun and seemed full of life or something. I’ve found the real him now, and I told him he’s a mean man. A very surly attitude. But he says it’s because of me being negative. I told him it’s because all he hands me is negative. He just can’t see it. I’m tired of the frustration of trying to get him to see that I’m every bit as human as he is.

He has a very weird thought process. He will say things that seem so out of character with someone of his bearing. He comes from a father who is a very well known architect in the area. I figured that in itself should count for something. This friend was in Vietnam, and I think that might have done something to, to his mind. We were having lunch last year and out of the blue, he said he has a trunk full of Vietcong ears of the men that were killed. He said, too, that he has a trunk full of AK-47’s. I’m like, what? He said, well the rats probably ate the ears. I’m still like, what? Where did that come from? I read that some Vets would cut off the ears, but they weren’t allowed to do anything with them and if they continued they could face a court martial. I could never follow his line of thinking. There have been many more statements, but I kind of let it go in my ear and out. I naively thought with the outside looking so good, the inside should be in line. Again, that’s before I knew about the signs. We really can’t judge a book by the cover. All those old cliches still work. All that glitters really isn’t gold.

I, too, think the only real emotion I ever saw, was the anger. When they are angry, the real feeling of what’s inside comes out. I’ve actually tried to anger my friend just to know what he was harboring towards me, so I could prepare myself. He’s just too “out there” for me. Now I’m so skeptical, that I look for those red flags with all men. I listen, because I sure have learned.

Beverly

My childhood too was dysfunctional, bought up initially by a narcissistic father and schizophrenic mother – I have the ability to think around corners. But that is only any good, if you back it up with action. With the figures of people with full or partial neurosis quite high, I have spoken to at least 3 other close friends of mine of have encountered similar behaviours and are having to move area or hide from their ex partners. Two of these women had children with these men, and have the double hardship of having to bring the kids up alone. My ex absolutely hated children and I always felt he was jealous of them. Although I am still in recovery, I no longer have to bend myself out of shape for this man – the one I called my knight in rusty armor. In a strange way and off the back of him and some of his comments, I have used this as a learning experience.

Even when I think back to last summer, he suddenly vacated his room, finished his job, moved in with a family member – makes sure he has so few possessions he can up and move easily. He refuses to have his name on anything official, used elaborate excuses to say why he didnt want a passport, doesnt have a driving licence. Apart from his obligatory work taxes, he is virtually untraceable. He has moved all over the place and has had 85 pages of jobs (I know of about 5 jobs) and goodness knows what mayhem he has caused.

apt/mgr

Reading the comments by so many here, makes it so much easier for me to process the weirdness of the one relationship I’ve had after my husband left me at the curb. This man who kept calling us friends, did everything that didn’t mean friendship. He figured if he showed up, he did his part, and let the party begin. I’ve known him for twelve years and he’s moved 12 times in the time I’ve known him. I did some background checking and found he’s had over 20 addresses in probably that many years. I don’t know if he moves to stay one step ahead of the bill collectors or he wears out his welcome.

I’ve always been someone who wonders why people do what they do. I know why I do everything I do and can prove it. But watching from a distance and being subject to odd behavior, makes me wonder what could possibly be going on in their minds. I’ve said as long as they bring nothing to a relationship, they can leave without leaving anything behind, and the partner is glad to see the last of them.

I think this friend of mine does so much for reaction. His behavior is a combination of narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, and just confusing. He’s one who when he leaves, you wonder what just happened and what did you even talk about. His comments are so vague and you know you don’t connect. With normal people, you can talk and walk away, knowing you really talked, but with him, he leaves one guessing. That’s when I would call and say what did you mean? He would say, I didn’t say whatever.

Knowing the friendship is over, makes me feel so free. To know I don’t have to participate in inane conversations that only make sense to him. My opinion is that he seems like he can only relate to a woman, when he is cheating on his current one. He doesn’t know how to relate in a normal sense, and only if he’s following his agenda. It’s about the thrill of the chase, but once he achieves his goal, he’s run out of ideas.

As I read all these comments, it’s bringing it all back to me, just how warped this whole debacle has been. Nothing has made sense to me, so how could it make sense to him. But to him, I’m the one with the problem. I know now that it’s not me. We all can’t be wrong. He would tell me I imagined a lot of what he said or did. I actually kept journals when he started to do weird things. After the years of living with my husband and being subjected to daily changes, and I didn’t record anything, I figured I wasn’t taking any more chances. The most of the entries pertain to his negative treatment of me. I look back and wonder why it took me so long to say, get out of my life. But I kept waiting and every now and then, he would exhibit something that suggested that I must have gotten through. Then just that quick, we were back to square one and nothing had changed. I finally realized that he was trying to mold me into something, but I never knew what. I have no desire to stick around to find out. How I thank God that my divorce hasn’t happened and my house isn’t sold yet. I was very weak last year, and had everything been finished of my marriage, I probably would be taking care of him. I’m so onto him that I don’t want anything with him. I refuse to do life his way. I will do it the way that works for me.

I don’t want to be with someone who has lots of secrets and resents being asked a simple question. I thought good conversation consisted of asking questions to find out about each other’s lives. Asking questions says that you are interested. To him, I was digging. That’s only because he had lots to hide. I uncovered a lot of garbage about him. That made him mad. He would tell me I had no right. I told him, when a man messes with a woman’s money, sex, emotions, she has every right to find out what he’s all about. I feel so much better though, knowing that he is the one with the problem and that’s why all his women finally dumped him. He can’t seem to understand that you don’t cheat on or lie to your wife, friend or lover. He has his guards up, and won’t let anyone in, but he wants to be in someone else’s life. What a bizarre existence.

I treasure God’s words and they have been my mainstay, and I always figured God gave us words to live by, so if we follow His precepts, we can have a normal life. It’s worked and works for my children, but not me because the men I’ve been around have the problems talked of here. They have great husbands. They talk together. But if I had to pay the price so they didn’t, it was a worthy sacrifice. I was able to come to terms with the oddity of these men, by doing comparisons and seeking my own counsel, through God. It worked. I have peace about so many things. I’ve been able to ditch the guilt. I refuse to buy into what is placed at my feet. If I didn’t do it, I will no longer accept it. Freedom. You got to love it!!

Beverly

Apt/Mgr.
I think that through this website, we realise that there is a pattern of behaviour and that we are not crazy or insecure. We can see that there is alot of familiarity between these people – the way they act. Its the superiority of keeping your prey in the dark, throwing them off balance into turmoil and torment – getting one over someone else. He used words in the relationship like predatory – I have never heard these kinds of words used in my other relationships. My ex was cheating too, but he cleverly let me know it by giving me his old phone with his womens phone numbers on it, and leaving intimate text messages to a married woman on a phone he borrowed from me. I will never fully know what he got up to and what he has been up to. But when a man who goes to great lengths to cover his traceability and even on his death wants his body donated to medical science so there is no trace of him – he must have a deep self loathing to behave like that. I tried to question him on many occasions, and he cleverly kept the information back he didnt want me to know – he told me what he wanted me to know. Like you, he hated it when I started to probe about him. I think the shock at the end was realising that I never fully realised what pereson he was till afterwards – however I did watch him closely and I checked on him alot. – and I didnt surrender everything. He wanted a joint bank account – I said no, he wanted me to give up work – I refused. The physical side of our life was very strange too – very mechanical, devoid of emotion – he professed ‘heartfelt love’ but then he would disappear, push and pull, hot and cold. I was on an emotional roller coaster with him punishing me from the background – I think they call that ambient abuse, its the kind of abuse that is very hidden, but it insidiously bends you out of shape, until you forget the person that you were. Physically your body hurts, symptoms start manifesting, I still have chronic backache and when we split I felt like I had been punched all over. Sick love just makes you sick, there is no getting away from it, you cannot ignore the signals from your body. But then I had signals from my body early on, I even went to an acupuncturist 6 weeks into the relationship telling him that it felt like my body was over revving, this was due to the intensity of the relationship. I misread that intensity, but I didnt reciprocate at first, but he worked on me to break down my defences, he behaved like the perfect partner, reliable, polite. But he couldnt keep it up and then there were the bizarre comments, the disappearing. I learnt alot about passive anger from his behaviour, by reading up on it. I expressed my anger outwardly and thank God I did, because it was my ultimate protection. I heard rumours that he had left the pub with a woman, I challenged him about it, he told me I was a sad pathetic b…ch and then I pushed him over so easily, he flew into a rage. I too kept a journal of these bizarre happenings, and I started to keep a diary of his patterns of behaviours and I checked on him at different times. I also kept a log of my dreams as I had some pretty nasty ones.

apt/mgr

Beverly,
I too, suffered physically, during the most of the years with my husband. I had migraines, horrible menstrual periods, bouts of cramps and diarrhea. etc. I jumped through hoops hoping my husband would just show some sign of real love. We were working on our house, and I worked like a man, to try and impress him with my abilities. But the more I did, the more he expected me to do. I humiliated myself on more than one occasion to try and get through to him. Nothing worked. He used me for sex and services, but if I was sick, he treated me with disdain. I thought, what a cold person I’ve married. It’s like I didn’t dare get sick, because my duty was to take care of him.

Several years ago, I started to hemorrhage and had lost over half of my blood. I needed transfusions. A few months after that incident, I got a tumor in my back. I thought it was God allowing something to happen to me to get my husband to see that I had worth and he would quit taking me and the children for granted. So I had surgery to have it removed. Two months after that I had a D&C, then two months later, a hysterectomy. That period of 6 months, were probably the best of my life as far as being a wife went. He was so nice and solicitous and it was like we were a real family. But after I healed and he knew he wouldn’t have to take care of me, he went back to his old, miserable way of treating us. Nasty demeanor, caustic way of talking. That’s when I finally realized that all those years of living as husband and wife was about him. He has since mellowed, but it’s too late for us.

I tried to be a good wife and mother, but nothing made a difference. I almost ruined my health to get someone’s love. I always felt he was jealous of my mothering the children, but I was their mother, not his. That’s when I started to see him differently. I think there is something so messed up inside of him that pertains to his own mother. She’s been dead for 44 years and if he mentions her in any way, he breaks down. It’s just unsettling being with someone who isn’t in touch with their emotions and just imitate others.

That’s why this man I met who wanted us to be friends, was welcome in my life. I truly thought he was the one to take me away. What a mess he made. I’m so glad I never got to the place where we would have gotten together. All in all, the time we spent together over the last 12 years, consisted of him having lunch with me or just stopping in to make sure I hadn’t forgotten him, and if it were added up, would have amounted to maybe 2-3 months, had we been together as a couple. But he sure did a number on me. He was a lesson well learned.

He was a very unfeeling man too. It’s like they resented me for having any physical problem. Very little sympathy. No empathy for me. I was on my own. How I thank God for healing my mind and brokenness. I’m much better for it and I’ve found the greatest panacea is talking and writing, until we get it out of our systems. With God’s help and mercy, I want to begin the new year, taking better care of me. I want to lose the weight again, that I lost before the tumor and other problems and get me back again. I find I eat for comfort and I needed a lot of comfort. That’s my worst vice, but I want to take care of me. They can take care of themselves or find someone else who wants to be a glutton for punishment do it. I want to get my life in order for me. I will look at all this as a lesson to me. I’ve learned where my strengths and weaknesses are and to change my weaknesses to strengths and to recognize the signs and not allow someone to take advantage of me. I thought for so long that in order to please God, I have to please people, but that was before I knew people have their own agendas and I have to protect my own boundaries. And it’s okay to say NO WAY. If I don’t receive some benefit from it, then I’m done. I won’t deplete my stores anymore.

Beverly

Apt/mgr

Cold and calculating is their demeamour. He told me at the beginning he was a cold hearted b….d. My ex has severe angst with his mother too – she abused him when he was young, and so did his father. The sheer bad luck of thinking that someone who has befriended you to take you away from one demon to find out you have been befriended by another is the clever twist of the evil energy at work. My goodness what suffering these people cause, which is their own suffering deferred. Like you, I will be pleased to see the back of 2007, but I will be putting all my energies into myself to my own healing and wellbeing and this is something I shall continue to do whether in a relationship or not. I shall be number one in my life and this is a great gift of learning to caretakers and messiahs out there – most of whom are women.

apt/mgr

Beverly,
It’s comforting to know there really are kindred spirits out here. I’ve always been a believer in good vs evil and that those spirits do inhabit people. The twisted minds just pass it on to their children and continue the cycle of dysfunction. Someone has to stop it. I feel sure that it stopped for my children. I don’t say self righteously, but I guess I suffered so my children didn’t have to.
Sometimes I feel this guilt for what my youngest endured, but she has to overcome like I did. We both forgave her father, but he did so much damage to me, because of the sexual relationship. He didn’t want me for anything but that, and I truly don’t think he realizes just how messed up he is. But he doesn’t ask for help, so I guess he doesn’t think he needs it. I just know that I want peace in my life and if it means just me, then so be it. I will not be the court jester for any man or anyone else for that matter. If they don’t want me out of bed and don’t want to do life with me, then they aren’t going to satisfy their lust at my expense.

Our society has put such a stigma on the people because they have this standard of living and so many people don’t have minds of their own so they adhere to that standard. It says if you aren’t sexually active by 21, you’ll suffer for it. If you aren’t having sex this many times a week, there’s something wrong. So society is using sex as a gauge to determine a person’s worth and people fall for it. From my observations of people, the most of their problems start once sex enters the picture. In my case, the only one who was punished was me and that was after sex or lack there of. I watched my husband and how he treated others, and they were treated with respect. I got nothing, unless he wanted sex. Then afterwards, it was the usual garbage. So if before and after stink, then sex is meaningless and is just a physical release.

I have watched so many people make fools of themselves over sex. Like it was the main ingredient for living. I’ve often asked what they did with the other 23 hours and 55 minutes. They put so much emphasis on the little bitty part of time, that everything else is left go. I think there is a way to make everything a priority, but that’s how I choose to live. But I refuse to be at a man’s disposal anymore. I tried it their way and it didn’t work and I was excluded. What a dismal excuse for a life lived. But I don’t have to put myself in that category. I choose to do it differently. Life is so short that I want to get the most while I can and it has nothing to do with messing with other’s lives. If they don’t want to include me, I move on. I refuse to invest anymore of my time on negative people. They will no longer drag me down with them. I refuse too, to be a battering ram for anyone again. I guess I have become a mouth, but only if necessary. I have ripped the welcome off my mat and will only allow those who want to be on the same page, in my life.

I want to take back what was taken from me and the most of that is peace of mind. I will no longer try for a place in someone’s life. I have a quote that goes, never make someone a priority in your life if you are only an option in theirs. I’ve read about emotional unavailability and commitment phobes and have found more information that I wish had been there for me years ago. When I was young enough to really do something about my lot in life. I had no idea there were so many mentally deformed people out here, who are disguised as normal men looking for a mate for life. What a joke. I use to think it had something to do with my extra poundage, but I’ve found size has little to do with it. It’s about choices. And I’ve finally realized that I too, have choices.

gettingoverthetrauma

me again. sorry to beat a dead horse, but i still wonder…am I the only person so traumatized by what happened to me that I think holehearted is the sociopath himself, the actual author of the blog, sociopath.net?

she/ he? seems over the top.

Holehearted has been posting for a couple of months. She’s not the author of sociopath.net.

Isabel

“At the top he has ASK as an option and you can ask him anything you want. I have had some email correspondence with him. He’s very intelligent”knows his disorder very well, and has a journal on there.”

I didn’t know an intelligent person would debunk what is officially diagnosed as sociopathy.

“His blogs will sicken and delight you at the same time.”

What a load of hogwash.

loux2

“Why would an unloving person even want a mate? The answer is power.”

AND to appear normal to everyone else. They know they are freaks… they just don’t want everyone ELSE to know they are freaks too.

Either way, it’s manipulation.

Great blog!

Ox Drover

You can’t be a bully if you don’t have a victim.

You can’t feel “superior” if there isn’t an “inferior”

You can’t be a “winner” if there isn’t a “loser”

You can’t be “right” unless someone else is “wrong”

It IS all about the POWER.

loux2

Hey Ox 🙂

So you are saying that your opinion is = it is MORE about having someone to project their own weaknesses on (punish someone else for their own inadequacies/ impulsivity or lack of impulse control, self loathing. etc…) – than anyone else’s perception of how ‘normal’ or ‘abnormal’ they are?

My ex – he is all about image. He wants to have uncommon wealth, a trophy wife at his side – the younger the better b/c (he thinks) that makes him admirable and appear more virile (to other disordered, power hungry, perverted old MEN). Thing is – he’s never satisfied. Once the new gets old; or when he has a kid with her ASAP to trap/ hook her even further into the relationship – WHICH takes all the attention OFF of him (he is self defeating) – then it’s time to line up the back up b/c D&D is not far off. Which, of course, depreciates his wealth accumulation – ex’s and kids are not cheap!

He is his own worst enemy!

loux

loux2

Hey Ox 🙂

So you are saying that your opinion is = it is MORE about having someone to project their own weaknesses on (punish someone else for their own inadequacies/ impulsivity or lack of impulse control, self loathing. etc…) – than anyone else’s perception of how ‘normal’ or ‘abnormal’ they are?

My ex – he is all about image. He wants to have uncommon wealth, a trophy wife at his side – the younger the better b/c (he thinks) that makes him admirable and appear more virile (to other disordered, power hungry, perverted old MEN). Thing is – he’s never satisfied. Once the new gets old; or when he has a kid with her ASAP to trap/ hook her even further into the relationship – WHICH takes all the attention OFF of him (he is self defeating) – then it’s time to line up the back up b/c D&D is not far off. Which, of course, depreciates his wealth accumulation – ex’s and kids are not cheap!

He is his own worst enemy!

But, disordered people have their priorities too, I guess. Some are more concerned about Image; others about the power trippin.

loux

Wini

I think when my EX got involved with me was my easy nature. Thinking he liked me for that. In hindsight, he was just divorced (lied to me about the time frame of the divorce), didn’t have a pot to pee in (lied to me about that), was looking for someone easy going as a stepping stone to get where he wanted to go.

Pretended to be in love with me. Worked with my managers to bring me down telling them what got to me and what didn’t work. Destroyed my personal possessions that I am now, years later, finding in my garage behind his possessions he left here. So in reality, was I a stepping stone and someone he also was jealous of and hated? Hating me for being independent, owning my own house, vehicles, money in the bank? Stole money from me under false pretenses … dated other women, spending my money on them? Stole money out of my bank account … that I never checked since I was busy licking my wounds over what my managers did to me. Makes up stories to new people he meets about his family and pretends that he comes from a different background than average American working family? I’m hearing more and more of stories as people he’s met in different states eventually contact me (for which we’re all friends now, haven’t met, but we chat on the phone and e-mails). Is he doing the same to his new wife as he did to me? My heart goes out to her and I hope she has the support of family and friends like I do and I hope she eventually logs on to this site so she too, can help herself like we’re all doing. My EX has perfected his game. He was everything to me. Best friend, lover, confident … everything you could hope for. Then when it’s over for them … they’ve used you for what they wanted … they already move on … behind your back with other relationships … so they are at an advantage stage of picking and choosing from this level … moving on without letting you know they’ve moved on … still playing you … if you question them what is wrong .. they patronize you … tell you nothing is wrong … still nice to you, stroking you as they slowing … slip out of your life. That’s why people are so devastated. They don’t realize how they were used and abused from the very start. We (loving individuals) are used for what they can get from us, home to live in, our finances, what we buy them, what they steal … better their life conditions … find new people so they can get even more … then on and on … until they are sitting on their thrones … what they bought and traded in over the years off of everyone else’s blood, sweat and tears. Donna is right … they pretend to have businesses or starting up business … WE are their business. That’s how they get their money and power in society … by stepping on and over all of us “normal” folks.

Peace everyone. I’m doing my breathing excercises. In-hale, ex-hale.

And for everyone on this site, from my heart to yours. Do not waste any more of your tears and heartaches over these ruthless slimy creatures. You’re too good for any of them. I promise you are pure at heart. Peace to everyone.

loux2

wooops! how’d I do that? lol

loux2

just found a Machiavellian self-test on the web:

Machiavelli personality test
Are you a cutthroat or a pussycat? Find out, if you dare.

– – – – – – – – – – – –
By Richard Christie

Sept. 13, 1999 | MACH-IV (Test of Machiavellianism)

To what extent do each of the following statements accurately describe you? Please indicate the degree to which you personally agree or disagree with each of the following statements by choosing a number from the scale below that reflects your opinion.

1=strongly disagree, 2=disagree, 3=neutral, 4=agree, 5=strongly agree

1) Never tell anyone the real reason you did something unless it is useful to do so.
1 2 3 4 5

2) The best way to handle people is to tell them what they want to hear.
1 2 3 4 5

3) One should take action only when sure it is morally right.
1 2 3 4 5

4) Most people are basically good and kind.
1 2 3 4 5

5) It is safest to assume that all people have a vicious streak and it will come out when they are given a chance.
1 2 3 4 5

6) Honesty is the best policy in all cases.
1 2 3 4 5

7) There is no excuse for lying to someone else.
1 2 3 4 5

8) Generally speaking, people won’t work hard unless they’re forced to do so.
1 2 3 4 5

9) All in all, it is better to be humble and honest than to be important and dishonest.
1 2 3 4 5

10) When you ask someone to do something for you, it is best to give the real reasons for wanting it rather than giving reasons which carry more weight.
1 2 3 4 5

11) Most people who get ahead in the world lead clean, moral lives.
1 2 3 4 5

12) Anyone who completely trusts anyone else is asking for trouble.
1 2 3 4 5

13) The biggest difference between most criminals and other people is that the criminals are stupid enough to get caught.
1 2 3 4 5

14) Most people are brave.
1 2 3 4 5

15) It is wise to flatter important people.
1 2 3 4 5

16) It is possible to be good in all respects.
1 2 3 4 5

17) P.T. Barnum was wrong when he said that there’s a sucker born every minute.
1 2 3 4 5

18) It is hard to get ahead without cutting corners here and there.
1 2 3 4 5

19) People suffering from incurable diseases should have the choice of being put painlessly to death.
1 2 3 4 5

20) Most people forget more easily the death of their parents than the loss of their property.
1 2 3 4 5

This survey itself measures only one thing — whether you subscribe to the ideas of a 16th century Italian political philosopher. But experiments have shown that reactions to Machiavelli act as a kind of litmus test, delineating differences in temperament that can be confirmed with more traditional personality inventories. High Machs constitute a distinct type: charming, confident and glib, but also arrogant, calculating and cynical, prone to manipulate and exploit. (Think Rupert Murdoch, or if your politics permit it, President Clinton.)

True low Machs, however, can be kind of dependent, submissive and socially inept. So be sure to invite a high Mach or two to your next dinner party.

http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/09/13/machtest/

my score was 46

Wini

Dear loux2: Interesting test. Thanks for sharing it with the rest of us.

Peace.

Ox Drover

Dear Loux,

Image I think for some of them is what they perceive as power, and they like control as well–they have to have it.

I know my X-BF-P it was about IMAGE. He grew up in what he condisdered “poor” circumstances, he wasn’t any more poor than the rest of us in this area at the time (we are about the same age) it is just that HE PERCEIVED that “rich” people looked “down” on poor people. I never grew up with that feeling that money made you “better” or “more status” so he wanted to be perceived of as “rich” and Education, he flunked out of his first semester in collge, so he wanted to appear “smart” and knowledgable. He was threatened by anyone with a “college education” and perceived that anyone with more formal education than he had (females at least) were “talking down” to him. Yet, he wanted to be arond others that he perceived were “educated” He would become irate if any conversation showed he didn’t know something, anything. Anyone else knowing something he didn’t was a threat to him.

Several judges and others in “power positions” that he had gone to school with he thought were his “friends” and he was always name dropping with these people. In fact, they weren’t really “friends” but he perceived they were.

He was conspicuous with buying “toys”—an expensive sports car, and other obvious signs, to him at least, of “wealth”–

But unless the P have someone to feel superior to, they can’t function, or someone to bully. If they had no one to “admire” their “success” they can’t function to make themselves appear better TO THEMSELVES.

What good would it do them to be alone on an island without someone to bully, to feel superior to? Now matter how the island was equipped? An actor has to have an audience!

My P-bio father did the same thing, conspicuous spending for “toys” and bigger airplanes, younger women, etc. If no one “envies” you for your younger women and bigger toys what good are they? The admiration from others I think is a big thing with many Ps. Maybe not all of them, but many. The power and control is all about it as well.

The Ps in lower socioeconomic brackets by exerting control can even experience the “superiority” of having SOMEONE lower than they are, so they perceive themselves at least Not on the BOTTOM.

Thanks for the test too, Loux. Interesting.

passer-by

To holehearted:

> this is saying that others should avoid you..that you are somehow not worthy of other’s friendship or love

I think that the member of Dark Triad is not worthy of other’s friendship or love – as long as he/she is the member of Dark Triad. You wrote that something woke you up, so probably it is not about you anymore, is it?

“Somehow” is not an appropriate word here. It’s not that such a person “somehow” is unworthy of other people’s friendship and love; they are unworthy of it exactly because they make the ones who love them suffer because of that love. Other people are not obliged to suffer just to let the member of Dark Triad avoid his personal hell he wilfully (albeit not intentionally) brought upon himself.

> It was always, “Why do all these stupid people get to live happy lives with nice homes and I have to suffer worrying over paying my bills?”

It’s called envy. But if you are that good, that smart, that funny etc. why do you need to be envious? It means that you are rich, that you have things that really matter. But rich people don’t have a reason to envy the poorer ones.

> I was not good enough for me.

It may be so that you still are not good enough for you. After doing all those things and after finding yourself in the circumstances you are now it’s hardly possible to feel that you are good enough.

> I feel ugly, old and stupid.

Probably that’s the way you are. But you can change that except for being old. And being old is relative: probably in ten years you will think that you were young at that time, that is, now.

> Now I “feel” for everyone.

I think it’s too grandiose to be true. Probably you are as human as anybody else, and humans have limited capacity for empathy. I think you are ovewhelmed with feelings that are relatively new for you because you tried to avoid them.

> whose son’s girlfriend killed their baby

Is she in prison? Or is this the euphemism for having an abortion? Do you really think that 10 week old human embryo has emotions and experiences like a year old baby? Or maybe you just choose to avoid the empathy towards the girl facing for the first time in her life the scary situation when another life inhabits her body and lays claim to irreversibly change her life?

> I didn’t want to suffer like these people

It’s absolutely normal. Nobody wants to suffer. There is nothing bad in that you didn’t want to suffer like the people you observed. There is nothing dark in it. But this is not enough to make you behave the way you wrote you behaved. There must be something else to contribute to that your behavior, because when you face another human being you understand that he/she doesn’t want to suffer either. And if you are an ordinary human being, there are times when you just can’t say: “It’s your turn to suffer; it’s always your turn because I don’t want to suffer at all”. There are times when something in your soul makes this stance impossible. Although nobody wants to suffer at all.

> How much longer can this go on?

It will go on at least as long as you don’t agree to be an ordinary human being. By the way, every ordinary human being is unique and has some special talents and abilities to be proud of; maybe you have them too. Maybe you’ll find some real reason to be proud of yourself. It makes life bearable.

> Thank you for listening.

It looks as if you needed some compassion. You have mine, but what will it change in your life? I’m just a stranger, a passer-by in the huge maze of Internet. Maybe the thing you really need is somewhere in your own soul?

Ox Drover

passer by,

I’m not sure holehearted is still around, but your response is interesting to a very good thread and article. We all need to re-read this article from time to time to refersh our memories, especially those of us that are starting to date again. Thanks for your comments.

Wini

I don’t know about anyone else, but I LOVE getting older. I’m more sure of myself. I like myself. I love talking and exchanging ideas with older folks … because they have the wisdom that they acquired from living a full life! I don’t know how being elderly became a dirty word … not in my book! Never would I not respect a wiser individual. Never!

Peace.

Matt

My ex is a pure sociopath. However, his favorite book was Machiavelli’s “The Prince.” Telling, isn’t it?

passer-by

> I’m not sure holehearted is still around, but your response is interesting to a very good thread and article

I understand. But I can’t start new thread if all I want is to respond to some specific comment. Maybe she will read it, or maybe not. In any case you read it and found it interesting 🙂

Wini

Hey Matt: My EX loved John Wayne. Go figure?

hens

The more I read the more I just want to give up on a committed relationship – it’s all just to confusing – is it just me or does it seem like russian roulette? – I think being a sociopath would be less painful, how do you get rid of a conscience?

blackrose

Thanks for being here. After almost one year of not talking to my ex, I’m still struggling with the hurt. I have gone into counseling, and working on my issues. The best defense against these lesser beings is to educate ourselves so we avoid them in the future. The truth is, that as much as I miss him sometimes, I know that there is no way that my life would be happy with him. I still miss the man i thought he was, but not the real him, because I don’t know who the real man is. My hate for him is gone, but I also don’t feel pity for him, although my counselor said he’s still a dangerous man to me. I have sorrounded myself with a good support system, family and friends who have been very supportive, so it is getting better, and it will get better for you too. Slowly, you will reclaim the little pieces of your soul, and be whole again.

hens

Blackrose – [The truth is, as much as I miss him sometimes, I know that there is no way my life would be happy with him.] I relate, I don’t hate him even if he deserves nothing but that, has been 9 months no contact for me. Slowly I am recovering myself. I think part of the pain of loving a sociopath is realizing we were in love with (our) fantasy, (our) ideal of true love. I have to stop loving fantasy people and love real people. It’s work I must do on me – I have to fix me – take care of me. It’s like oop’s I have had it all wrong – it doesn’t work like that..

blackrose

Henry, you are right about learning to love people who are real. I’ve decided to stay away from dating for a while until I learn more about myself, and what attracted me to this man, and what makes it hurt so much is that we feel we’ve lost, not just our lover, but our best friend. My ex and I shared the same interests, family values, political views, but they were my interest, family values, etc. I used to feel sorry for him, but I don’t anymore, he didn’t even have the decency to call me and tell me it was over, the lack of respect, lack of remorse. People ask me if I’ll ever forgive him, I forgave myself, I don’t owe him that much. But, to keep hating him wasn’t healthy for me, and he doesn’t even deserve that kind of emotion from me.

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