It’s disconcerting, no question about it, working with someone who’s antisocial, with real sociopathic qualities (forgetting, again, for the moment, the hell of living with such an individual).
Recently, I’m struck again, in my work with a client I’ll call Howard, by the brew of certain qualities, certain attitudes, certain defenses that strike me as forming a rather sociopathic orientation.
Howard is 19. He understands the suffering he’s causing others in his life: he can “talk the talk,” meaning that he “gets it” on a cognitive level. He can say, for instance, quite accurately, what he’s doing, why it’s wrong, that it’s wrong, even that he feels bad about it.
How badly he really feels is highly debatable. In my view, not nearly as badly as he claims, and certainly not nearly badly enough to make real efforts at change. In our sessions, I confront him regularly with my perception of the discrepancy between his assertions of remorse and regret, and what he’s really willing to do about them?
I see him as someone who can hear my challenges without reacting very defensively. His undefensiveness may seem like a good quality, and maybe it is; but it’s also likely that it stems, to some extent, from his ultimate unconcern with what I feel about, and think, of him. That is, I suspect it stems in part, at least, from his relative indifference to my (or anyone’s) view of him.
When I say he’s undefensive, I mean this specifically with regard to how he fields my confrontations. He is fairly placid in his absorption of them. On another level, though, he’s quite defensive in a classically narcissistic/sociopathic fashion: On one hand, as I’ve noted, he can seem remorseful (quite regretful) for his misbehaviors and abusive attitudes. But if you should probe him at all—not just accept his statements of remorse at face value—he predictably lapses into his truer position: this is a position from which his abusiveness is always, ultimately, rationalized as a response to his perceiving himself as having been victimized, persecuted or otherwise treated unfairly in some fashion.
Now he is canny enough to attempt to disguise this pattern, especially with initial assertions of politically correct sounding accountability. But always, with a little prodding, you will bring him back to his true experience in which self-justification for his abusiveness and an attitude of unaccountability prevail.
Just as noteworthy: no matter how many times you point out to him how rapidly he shifts from taking “seeming” responsibility for his behavior to abruptly abdicating responsibility for the same behavior (again, rationalizing it as a response to others’ persecution), he is rather uninterested in this contradiction and basically unconcerned to reconcile it. He just doesn’t find this contradiction particularly troubling, peculiar, meaningful, or worth his time to look at.
This is a highly sociopathic quality and attitude.
It seems to reflect the “glitch” that allows this personality, in his blithely untroubled, incurious fashion, to verbalize awareness and regret over his abusiveness and exploitiveness on the one hand, while on the other (almost simultaneously) to rationalize it as a valid reaction to his perceived, or contrived, victimization.
When I confront him routinely with this contradiction, he may give lip service to the validity of my observation; but always, his interest to explore it, to own its possible ramifications, is superficial and transient.
Similarly, he will periodically assert his desire to cease his hurtful behaviors; then, in the next minute or so, when presented with evidence that he’s continued the very behaviors he’s claimed to want to cease, he may say something like, “Well, maybe I’m really not that motivated. To be honest, I’m really not.”
The honesty itself could almost be seen as admirable. But the problem lies in his blithe disinterest in the rapid, contradictory nature of his assertions. He isn’t embarrassed by this. Point it out to him and he’s almost bored, like a kid who’ll say, when inconvenienced, “Whatever.”
I regard this pattern as a sociopathic form of indifference to the contradiction between one’s statements, and between one’s statements and ongoing actions. What’s striking isn’t the contradictory content itself, but the missing shame and embarrassment when confronted with the nature of the discrepant communications.
This can leave me shaking my head, privately, in a kind of amazement. But even if I were to shake my head in visible amazement, while Howard might notice it, and might understand why he’s left me shaking my head, you can bet he wouldn’t care to make any more sense of himself to me than he cares to make sense of himself to himself—which is very little.
(This article is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed.)
Steve,
this is very interesting to me too.
I read a book called, “why does he do that? inside the minds of angry men.” It might be helpful to you.
Lundy, the author, says that these abusive men abuse because they feel entitled to. As my xP would say, when I asked him why would he do something so damaging to our finances and our relationship, “because I can.”
Lundy goes on to explain that the abuser benefits from his abuse, or else he wouldn’t do it. How? Depends on the abuser, but ultimately, what they all get is feeling of power. “Because I can” says it all.
So, to follow on that logic, what is it about abuse that makes him feel powerful? OUR REACTIONS. He can make us supply him with DRAMA at the drop of a hat. And he will. I remember the way the exP would wield the TV remote, it was bizarre to watch, when he clicked it, he would wave it like a magic wand. FOR EACH CHANNEL. PICTURE IT. weird. Why? Well, he loved TV, he called it “The TV God” and it provided him with entertainment. They have need to be able to feel powerful and soothe their little infant fears with immediate gratifications. Drama makes him feel better, so he abuses.
One way to make him stop is to not react as he expects or give him a different pacifier.
Well, I went off on a tangent…I really wanted to talk about what makes them feel entitled and why they won’t change.
Since it’s all about them and their power, they will only change if they percieve that their behavior is not most beneficial to them.
You may have read the posts between Kathy Hawk and myself, when I explained that I don’t have boundaries. I’m a door mat sometimes. But not when I’m SHOPPING!
I have been trained that the customer is always right. I FEEL ENTITLED, to “Demand the Best for Less” (Target motto). I’m such a freaking power shopper that I will stack a coupon with a price match and a rebate. Once I made $400 by buying $18 worth of cough drops. Most people are in shock when they see me in action. I’m psycho shopper. This seems normal to me.
the other day my BF pointed out that I act entitled when I shop WHAT? ME? I realized I have a different personality when I shop because the merchants and our society has trained me that way. The customer is always right, He who holds the gold makes the rules. That is a narcissistic hook and I fell for it. When I’m shopping I FEEL MORE POWERFUL. It feels nice. I like it. Why would I change. In fact why not get addicted to shopping? I actually made money sometimes.
But that narcissistic addiction to power “shopping” has gotten many people into debt, just for that “high” and I realized that I didn’t actually GET power when I was shopping, I was GIVING it away as I was lured into one unnecessary purchase after another just because it was free after rebate.
I read in “The Art of Selfishness” that you can’t convince most people not to do evil, but you can convince them not to appear stupid very easily. No one wants to feel stupid, it’s a narcisstic injury.
So my point is that when I try to understand the stupid psychopath, I try to remember when I most acted as stupid as they are. Shopping is my most narcisstic moment.
If you can find a way to convince Howard that he is not gaining POWER, but losing it, when he abuses, you might be able to redirect his need for power. Perhaps point him to the remote control. Show him how to wave it around to get DRAMA.
aussie – donna may ask you to remove his name. i think there is a prohibition against naming them on the site.
Oops! Got carried away and forgot myself. I will try to go back and edit if it will let me. Thanks for letting me know. x
Dear onestep –
it worked. All gone. I will try to be a good girl from now on….
Aussie,
You better be a good girl! LOLOLOL!
OMG… I agree with you…… 50 and in the US and J—. Is his name!!!! What you are calling nonchallant is where in my experience that I inserted “arrogant”, grandiose! And nothing really to be arrogant over! Only the “super hero” in their mind!!!! and NO accountability for their actions or decisions in life! No credit, no money in the bank, no heat in a house where there is winter and cold, a life full of unfinished projects and on Ebay buying more!!!! Level 1 -2 hoarder! WTF? is that? Don’t forget about the porno addiction too!!! OMG!!!! Prince Charming turned into Prince of Darkness! He had a 5 yr plan to fix up the house….RIGHT BUD! The thing is falling down around him to this day! BUT there are big boy toys in the yard!!! IMO… sell the toys, get a job, sell all the crap on ebay, throw away the porno sites and GROW the fark up! 50 years old!!! OMG!!!
Thanks for reading
soimnotthecrazee1!
Thanks Steve for this post!
Reminds me of the time the S lied to me, telling me his friend talked badly of me, because I had “drank too much” on a friday night ( I didn’t act out or anything, at all. I just went to the bathroom and gagged a bit, and when I came out I was confronted by the S who said he was really “disappointed” in me. )
Of course, i did nothing wrong. It was absolutely retarded that i was being talked down to, and blamed for his friend leaving ( it was midnight anyway, so his friend left because it was late. I was talking to his friend the whole night, we were on good terms. ) ..
Oh, and he quite easily let me out the door, while i was drunk. I couldn’t even walk straight. ( I was leaving cause i couldn’t believe that he was blaming me for that.. ) I lived about 20 minutes driving away, so think about how serious that is.. I told him the next day, i wouldn’t even let a friend have driven home drunk. What the hell?
There’s a lot more to it to– i won’t explain it though. Too much to go into. The golden nugget is what he said the next day, after I kept defending myself, saying I didn’t do anything wrong. Everyone gets drunk sometimes, especially in college on a friday night. We were all just sitting on the couch watching a movie. Nothing was even happening. He offers me a drink every time I go to his place! He finally admitted to lying about his friend not really talking badly of me ( because I wouldn’t accept what he said, and he just wanted to “appease” me at that point. ie : my feelings are getting in HIS way… ie : Not simply “forgetting” what he did. ) then he goes, “I’m sorry but the only reason I did that was because you got too drunk.”
I’m sorry… BUT i’m not sorry and it’s really your fault.
Really Repulsive. repulsive isn’t even the word… i didn’t drive home drunk incidentally, i’m not about to put myself at risk and everyone out on the road- Instead i pulled over on a close street and sobbed in the car, and he wouldn’t answer his phone, deliberately. I waited til I was sober which was about an hour or more, and then drove.
He was getting a kick out of hurting me for no reason. And putting my life at risk. And he had the nerve to say I’m sorry, ( after a lot of words had been exchanged and I deleted him from my Facebook ) BUT yada yada yada…
Does that even make sense? “I’m sorry but I did it because you…” That is not even close to an apology, considering I did NOTHING wrong.
The real kicker about sociopaths, the real boundary-crosser is that when they have severely wronged you, they feel ENTITLED to your forgiveness… or they think they don’t have to be forgiven, because they didn’t do anything! I’m sure everyone here has heard, “What do you want from me?” When the situation calls for remorse, sympathy… Imagine hitting a person with your car, then shrugging… expecting them to smile and go “Oh, you’re right. I’m sorry for getting in your way. I’m sorry for possibly marring your car with my epithelial cells and blood.”
Kathy Krajco ( Author of Narc-Attack.blogspot.com ) said it most succinctly … what Sociopaths do are committing the Sin of Sodom ( No, the sin of sodom in the bible is not about God condemning gays… it’s about taking advantage of someone.) In Sodom & Gomorrah it was two angels.. who were offered a place to stay by Lot… Sodom & Gomorrah were subsequently destroyed by God because of the treachery… the people of Sodom & Gomorrah said to Lot, “Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!” even though Lot had promised the angels hospitality, a place to stay for the night. It is a rape of trust. Read the verse here : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19&version=NIV
Kathy Krajco wrote :
” The black art of torture is all about this skill in making the victim offer himself (or seem to offer himself) to the instruments of torture. This is the aspect of torture that torments the victim so for the rest of his or her life.
When you cannot resist, you at least have the comfort of knowing that there was nothing you could do. But when you have the power to put up some resistance and don’t – when you in effect say, “Here, take me and do what you will with me” – you feel like an abject worm.
The SHAME is unbearable. No exaggeration: it drives people to suicide.
For, what does it mean when a person accepts pain for another’s pleasure? That goes against the instinct for self-preservation. So what happens to the victim’s self? The victim no longer belongs to him- or her-self. The victim is possessed by the abuser. Like an arm or leg of his for him to use or abuse as he pleases.
It is the ultimate degradation. The victim ceases to exist as a person. No human being with the ability to resist and a spine will submit to it. You have to (morally) break a person’s back to make them docilely submit to abuse.
So, for the sake of the victim’s mental health, you must NEVER deny him or her the right to put up a fight.
Denying a person under any kind of assault this right is what theologians call the sin of “extreme perversity,” otherwise known as the Sin of Sodom, which a certain kind of rape – RAPE, not sex – is symbolic.
It violates the laws of nature and the innate instinct for self-preservation. If the victim knuckles under to psuedo-moralistic pressure to not lift hand or voice in self defense, he or she will hate themselves and become a suicide risk. That is forcing people to commit the worst breech of faith there is – with one’s very self. It’s self-betrayal, what Joan of Arc called the “most wretched treason.”
The victim NEEDS to know that he or she did what they could to resist their abuser! Don’t EVER try to stop the victim from doing that! ”
read whole article here : http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2008/06/kathy-krajco-self-preservation-under.html ( not krajco’s blog, just a quoted article. Kathy Krajco has passed as of May 2008, Rest in Peace. )
No Aussie Girl (and Steve Becker), You’re mistaken. He’s 50 and it’s not a counselling session. It’s one of MANY discussions I am trying to have with my husband about lying, or about running around with other women, or about withholding info so the wrong financial choice was made, or about, or why people close to him hate me so much, or that our daughter is only going to grow up once, or that abusing our ranch animals is BAD etc. etc. etc.
But no matter what, the outcome was that I was the one making a big deal out of things and why am I so difficult and just can’t move on, must be b/c I am too emotional.
Katy
i love this thread. we can name without naming….what they are, who they were/ are to us.
aussie – i would hate it if someone were ever ‘good’ on my account.
i would love to out the flaming !@.......#$%^&* on lf. donna does case studies, but she hasn’t been inclined to do one on my spath. she’s infamous, so there is press about her, and lots of stuff online – inc. a pending case for fraud. she’s really nasty; her joy in life is to con con con as many peeps as she can, at a time, in a year, with a focus on truly fucking over a few…wonder if she has an actual goal in mind when the year rolls over, or if she just happily gets to a dozen per year and she’s ‘good’?
dancingnancies,
thank you so much for your post.
I had forgotten about Kathy Krojco, she was a fountain of wisdom. So much so that after she passed, some people got together to continue hosting her website.
She really KNEW about narcissists.
I recommend everyone here check out her knowledge.
She was tortured by a narcissistic sister her whole life. The sister bought a house and moved in across the street just so she could torture her. She knew that Kathy had a heart condition and sure enough, she eventually succumbed under the stress. But not before she left her wisdom on a website.
My exP fantasized about surrounding me with neighbors that would hate me. An elderly couple lived next door and they must not have found anything to hate me about. But the old genleman had a heart condition. He went over there and RAGED at the man, then he came back and said to me, “I almost gave him a heart -attack hahahaahha.” They look for weaknesses. God they are soooooo evil.
RED FLAG, shoulda known. But he had convinced me that the couple were vindictive and rotten and I should hate them. It’s called projecting.