By | November 30, 2010 36 Comments

No more narcissists in the DSM 5

Earlier in the year, Lovefraud submitted a comment giving our views on the draft of the new Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, DSM 5. We commented on the proposed new term for antisocial personality disorder, “antisocial/psychopathic type,” and the diagnostic criteria.

One of the changes that the DSM 5 committee proposed was eliminating the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. According to an article in the New York Times, not everyone is happy about it.

Read A fate that narcissists will hate: being ignored on

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Ox Drover

I think this article highlights the problems within the mental health professional community.

I see narcissism as a symptom, like fever…it shows something is wrong, but it isn’t the disease itself, just one of the symptoms of the disorder in this case. I realize I don’t have MD or PhD after my name, but I have professional mental health exerpeince and personal experience there as well.

I think the “personality disorders” have been cut up into too many pieces, that over-lap in symptoms.

It would be like if a patient had what we now call pneumonia (one disease) but it was divided into fever, cough, producing sputum, poor oxygen exchange—each one of these things is either a symptom or a result of the disorder but is not a SEPARATE disorder in itself.

Psychopath: can have narcissistic traits very high, or less high, but it is like the “fever” it goes along WITH PERSONALITY DISORDER.

Just like you can have viral pneumonia that has the same symptoms as bacterial pneumonia, there may be a few sub types like what they call “borderline PD” but I don’t think BPD is different enough from PPD or NPD that they are 3 different disorders, I think they are variations on the same THEME of personality disorder with maybe havingmore anxiety issues or abandonment issues in the BPD part, but still the bottom line is PERSONALITY IS DISORDERED.

You can have little horses, and black horses and red horses, and white horses, and big horses, and medium sized horses and ones with long tails and ones with short tails, or curly hair or straight hair, tall thin ones or big solid muscle draft horses, but they are all horses.

To me a personality disorder is a personality disorder is a personality disorder with or without a bunch of narcissistic traits, grandiosity, patholigical lying, violence, criminality…but it is still a personality disorder.

Simplify, rather than make more complex.

But just my opinion. For goodness sakes though I wish they would agree on something, like starting with a NAME. “ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER “SOUNDS LIKE A HERMIT. LOL


Hmm… I have mixed feelings about this. While i agree that NPD is a subset of sociopathy/psychopathy ( IE : all N’s are sociopaths/psychopaths … Lack of empathy being the underlying trait) .. sometimes it helps to put that “grandiosity” thing into perspective. Then it gets confusing because psychopaths/sociopaths are by NATURE grandiose… but yeah, still gotta think about it.

oxdrover said :

lololol yep

this has been coming for a long time and many of those psychopahthic sociopathic types as they call them whatever the label also have narcissistic traits. Steve Becker has long been suggesting that there is a new breed of sociopath. Look up his previous post on the narcissicopath.

If you go the actual criteria most of the traits they have put in the new list called the “psychopathic type” fits well into the narcissist traits. I have just actually been writing an article today about it for a new website if anyone is interested. Its just my own personal view but people can make up their own minds.


What about “psychospathic perthonality dithorder”?

(Okay, that wath jutht plain nathty of me…)
(thorry everybody)
(I thtand corrected)


I’m not sure what to think of the change. It’s nice to be able to label something so we can go “ah ha” that’s what is wrong, now we can treat it. But not everyone fits into the box. I think the main label should be personality disorder with sociopathic traits.

I have been trying to quantify the problem for a long time to find a way to properly deal with it. Spath wouldn’t be a spath on the scale because he is responsible with his obligations. He isn’t grandiose per se but is highly manipulative. All of the emotional traits on the scale, he is defincient in. He would score a 2 on all of them.

So what can I take away from the diagnosis, he is personality disordered to start with. Huge fear of abandonment which is more BPD. But it’s time to start living and stop analyzing things beyond my control.


thank you aussiegirl – your post gave me a really good chuckle this morning!

Ox Drover

Dear Ho0pe4,

The only way to “TREAT” it is treat it like a LEVEL 4 CONTAGIOUS DISEASE, isolate it (in prison sometimes) and STAY AWAY from it and don’t expose yourself to it. TOTAL NC.

We have to treat them like contagious diseases because they ARE and they rub off evil on everything and everyone they touch!

LOL @OxDrover contagious diseases. Hence my references to Darks souls and Black holes. Don’t go there or we’ll never come back again


I would like to see a link or whatever it is that gives you further information on what disorders were taken out, and what disorders were added, if this isn’t too much trouble.

And to add to the conversation, I don’t neccessarily think Antisocial Personality Disorder should be a disorder. From what I know about sociopathy it is something that can not be changed, so why consider it a disorder. Most personalitites can’t be changed, they are personalitites. I don’t want to go as far as saying that ALL personality disorders should be taken out, but there are quite a few that just seem like labels created to place a person who is different in a box for others to understand better. Antisocial does sound like a person who is a hermit when in fact they are everything BUT that.

Ox Drover

Dear Snowflake,

I think they ARE just labels created to place a person who FITS THAT DESCRIPTION in a “box” for others to understand better. We can’t fix them or change them, but we can label them so we can somewhat UNDERSTAND THEM, and how to protect ourselves from them. Can’t “fix” a cobra snake from being poison either, but we can label them so that when we see one we know to RUN! LOL


lol, so true!

In the way you described it, it does make sense, that way. Perhaps it should be in another form of informational book then. Not the DSM. I don’t know, that book seems so legit to me. To add something informative that can not be changed seems pointless.

I have the 4th version. I bought it after finding out about a friend having trichtillomania (sp?). I wanted to understand her more, the disorder more, and the book helped with out her having to talk about it. When I found out abou the narcissism disorder I looked it up there too. The anti-social one I looked up a few days ago, and it seemed pretty vague compared to what you ladies describe it to be here. I always ignored it because I figured it was a person that hates being social.


Btw, thank you for being so formal Od Drover. Makes me feel special 🙂 (sorry, I’m easily amused).


oh my ~! Dark Souls and Black Holes – need we say anything more? run run run run away from their darkness – stay away from the dark soul’s and black hole’s lest you get consumed by their fake light…~!

Ox Drover

Dear Snowflake,

Darlin’ you couldn’t possibly have a more twisted sense of humor or be more easily amused than I am! LOL Henry calls me his “twisted sister”! LOL

Well, there are lots of disorders and diseases for which there are no cures listed and DESCRIBED in medical texts and guides, and diagnosis manuals. The Personality disorders are only ONE kind of thing that there is no “cure” or even “treatment” for.

Before you can FIND a treatment or a cure though, you have to describe and quantify what the PROBLEM IS. So all the DSM-s are are lists of “labels” (names of) different diseases and disorders with the signs and symptoms of those problems.

There was a time that bi-polar had no “name” then they called it “Manic-depressive” which is a sort of descriptive name because the patients have depression at times and at times mania, and there are other descriptive types of bi-polar, like “rapid cycling bi-polar” or with HYPO-mania (a low-level mania not the full blown one) but since there are no blood tests or x-rays that can diagnose bi-polar they have to use DESCRIPTIONS of the behavior to figure out which type of bi-polar it is.

Sometimes bi-polar patients only present to the medical services when they are VERY depressed, so not having seen the mania phase (and the patient generally won’t tell you about them) you may Rx them an antidepressant medication which does improve their depression, but throws them into a FULL BLOWN MANIA—if they come back to see you again, and they are manic (talking rapidly high energy, not sleeping etc) you may then see WOW! This person is probably bi-polar not JUST DEPRESSED, so you give them a mood stabilizer and take them off the antidepressant. May fix them right up, but the medications have to be adjusted from time to time generally.

BUT without a description of this disorder BEFORE there was any treatment or cure, there wouldn’t have been a way to get a treatment (not a cure) at all, so I think it is the same with the personality disorders. It may be “a while” (decades?) before there is a treatment much less a cure, but until you know what is going on ,and are able to quantify and describe it, there’s no way you can even work on a cure. So, yes, there IS BENEFIT in describing a problem that we can’t yet treat or fix…and in the meantime, the rest of us can AVOID THESE PEOPLE LIKE THE PLAGUE!

Ps. I didn’t get your comment about me “being so formal”—don’t think I’ve been “accused” of that before! LOL Usually I’m pretty off the cuff here! (((hugs)))


Od Drover ? was that a typo or is this beat up Oxy week? lmao Od drover how ya doing? Hey my puter died so I went ahead and cancelled internet, so dont email me oxy drover I dont have internet….but if I have a crisis I got yer number…hope everybody get’s a hippo potomus for xmas love and miss you all….

Ox Drover

If you ain’t got internet how in the world are you on Love fraud?

BTW it is ODD DROVER! No one ever said I wasn’t odd!

Nah, I don’t worry about someone getting a bit upset with me, I’ve been down that path before and you can’t please everyone all the time so I don’t worry about the people I can’t please any of the time. When I first came here and got flamed it crushed my soul, but I realize now that people who are in pain themselves strike out at others —remember the article I wrote about forgiving myself?

Like how ANGRY I got at my son D’s friend the night after my husband got killed when she wouldn’t stop chattering away. She was just anxious and upset herself and didn’t know what to say or do but wanted to help, but she wouldn’t shut the Fark up, and I became so angry that I THREATENED TO BREAK HER JAW if she didn’t shut her mouth and not utter another sound! I really would have hit her as hard as I could have because I was so CRAZEE myself, so when people strike out at me, I figure they are in such pain themselves that they almost “need” to find someone else to blame for whatever is hurting them, or why they can’t get the “help” they need here on LF. Sure I’m an opinionated old biddy, but they can ignore me, post around me, whatever…but I figure they are like I was that night, in just so much pain they don’t know which way to turn. So for the time being until if and ever they want to communicate with me, I’ll just do my own thing and they can do theirs. No harm no foul!

Keep in touch Henry, I hope all is well with you and you get your eyes done soon and your vision gets better! I’ll send YOU my hippo potomus for christmas, I already have one, I see it every time I look behind me. (((hugs)))


hens – are you using smoke rising to the ‘U’ww – the universal wide web?

Ox Drover

Well, he’s a registered Native American (really!) so that’s what he is doing, using smoke signals to the UWW! LOL Good pun, One!


yah, i know hens is one of the people. me too – just too little to be registered.


peace out all – i want to go have a soak and a read.


It was a typo, lol, wow. Sorry OX DROVER!

I pointed out your being former because you addressed the notice with a “dear Snowflake”. I found that amusing is al.

The message you wrote was very insightful. Again, thank you.

Ox Drover

Dear Snowflake, I generally do say “dear X” in a post, but didn’t mean it to be “formal” just “nice” Glad you liked my post, and I usually have a smile on my face (or a “chit-eating grin” as my son D says!) Sorry you have a need to join our “club” but there’s a lot of great information for healing here. Welcome.

Ox Drover

ps snowflake, I am a bit “odd” though! LOL

So they are removing NPD but are they adding this new one? This article says that picky eating is a disorder.
It seems to me that all of the “personality disorders” are just people behaving like toddlers.
Check out the foods that these people prefer:
“peanut butter, crackers, grilled cheese sandwiches, chocolate milk…
Selective eaters tend to like similar foods, with an emphasis on the bland and processed. They love salt. French fries are a favorite. Bacon is the only meat many of them will eat.”
My spath would walk around wearing only a tee-shirt, nothing else and eating a bowl of cheerios. He liked bananas too and macaroni and cheese. BLAH!


Ox Drover:

“We have to treat them like contagious diseases because they ARE and they rub off evil on everything and everyone they touch! ” – so true. I kept tabs for a few weeks on my x-spath through Facebook and Myspace, using things that he let slip for my court case evidence against him. Problem was, I have to be very honest here and admit two things – (1) I really didn’t need the extra “information” – I already had enough and (2) It quickly became an obsession with me, needing to check in and see what I could “catch” him at – really unhealthy when I has been NC for so long; it dredged all of the anxiety up again… (silly girl) So – I stopped.

hens :

“Dark Souls and Black Holes … run run run run away from their darkness ”“ stay away from the dark soul’s and black hole’s lest you get consumed by their fake light”~! ” – as serious and as true as this statement was Hens, I couldn’t help giggling, trying to imagine what you look like and imagining you “girding up your loins” and making a run for it with those black clouds and the bright lights chasing you… (very theatrical!) (BTW – don’t panic! In my imaginings, you thoroughly out-ran them!)

kim frederick

On their contagion: I read somewhere that people involved with psychopaths, inevitably become one of two things: victims or accomplices.
I know I was persuaded to do things I never would have done, had I not been involved with him. And as far as becoming a victim, well, yeah, but Thank God I’m not a victim anymore!

Ox Drover

Dear Sky, I had forgotten about the tee shirt and cherrios story you told!!! ROTFLMAO OMG I have a GREAT VISUAL ON THAT!!!! BARF!!!! I’ve seen little kids age 1 1/2 or 2 doing that type of thing but a grown man with his willy wagging and a bowl of cherrios in his hand and nothing but a tee shirt hanging off over his fat belly! ROTFLMAO choke snnort snarf–thanks for reminding me of that Sky, that is one of your better stories and brings on peels of mirth in my head!

The high risk taking and so on is part and parcel with them. Also violating the “RULES” of the FAA is a sign that they are taking unreasonable risks. With the home-built planes or the experimentals where the owner is allowed to build and maintain them (s/he) is supposed to be the only one flying them as well, if you cut corners you are the one who dies–a guy that my Hub and I knew built his out of parts bought at Lowe’s or Home Depot instead of aviation quality stuff and my husband kept tellhing him that the fabric he bought at Wal Marts, and the varnish he bought at Lowe’s were NOT what you built a plane out of even if they did LOOK the same…and his plane got off the ground about 25 feet on it’s first flight and disintergrated! Like a pheasant hit with a big load of 12 ga. shot and the man survived, but lost his teeth, broke both arms, etc. I loved flying too, but my hubby was a professional pilot and didn’t cut corners and neither did I when flying…cutting corners off the rules can get ya killed or in serious trouble. Sorry about Austin.

Aussie yep, checking up on them or “emotional or mental stalking” can become an obscession but we don’t have to continue it. I write to my son’s friend “joe” just to fark with their heads really and give them disinformation. Where my house is located it isn’t visible from the highway and there’s really no way for anyone to know if I am here or in Tim-buck-too, or home or traveling. So I have friends send me picture post cards from all over the states and all over the world, and I write notes to “Joe” on them, and then mail them back to my friends, and have them mail them to Joe from where ever they live with my hand writing on them….that way, my P son and his friends have NO idea where I am—can’t find me, can’t hurt me. So as long as they think I am “traveling” all the time in my retirement they might not be as likely to try to put the hurt on me…in fact, this winter, I am traveling in your part of the world and Joe will receive soon his first of 6 or 7 postal cards telling him how warm and nice it is in your part of the world. When I “return to the states” from there, in a few months I will send him cards from New England for a while. Then I’ll move down to texas for a while… LOL

It’s just little stuff to keep the wolves a bit off balance, and to keep them from thinking they know what I am “up to” or where I am or what I am doing. Keeping your stalker confused or not sure where you are is just a defense tactic, but it can also be an enjoyable “game” as you come up with new ways to spread disinformation…as long as you are out of the ACUTE stage of FEAR…which after almost 4 years I am finally getting there. But I do not discount the fact that I could be facing deadly force at any time, either, but I choose to live in CAUTION not terror.


Oxy, I really like your post on here. Happy belated birthday, by the way. 🙂

“Just like you can have viral pneumonia that has the same symptoms as bacterial pneumonia, there may be a few sub types like what they call “borderline PD” but I don’t think BPD is different enough from PPD or NPD that they are 3 different disorders, I think they are variations on the same THEME of personality disorder with maybe having more anxiety issues or abandonment issues in the BPD part, but still the bottom line is PERSONALITY IS DISORDERED.”

If you read the site ‘marriedtoasexaddict’, the men discussed on there are all behaving in exactly the same way as sociopaths, with their manipulation, blame shifting, denial, out and out mind f***ery, and we know that Narcissism is so often the pre-cursor for sex addiction and that sociopaths are usually highly sexual because it’s a way of having power. Like we were saying on the post from Dr Rubenstein yesterday, it’s all on a continuum.


My ex ‘friend’ admits he uses women and plays mind games on them, but says that he then stays friends with them “to make it right.” As though being allowed to remain his friend is the prize!!! Hahahahahaha! Oh dear, unbelievable.


verity – this is interesting. it sounds like he is trying to imitate some ‘norm’ of what a good person might do – but as he’s a spath, he gets it all wrong.

Ox Drover

Dear verity,

My X BF-P kept saying to me from the FIRST of dating “if we broke up we’d still be FRIENDS” (actually what he was saying was “WHEN we break up we will still be friends WITH BENEFITS.”

He claimed to be “friends” (with benefits of course) with all his X GFs and actually I think even his X wife who had kicked him out for being caught (literally) in bed with another woman was an X wife “with benefits” (at least until she was informed he had an STD)

My definition of a “friend” is someone that I can TRUST, who will not lie to me or use me. It is someone that I would risk my life to save from drowning, someone I would take into my home if theirs burned or got repossessed, and whose home I could count on giving me shelter if I were homeless. It is NOT someone I have ever had sex with or would have sex with in the future.


Hi one_step. I hope you’re doing okay.

I got a pang of sadness for him when I read what you wrote … not that it lasted long!! It soon turned to another ‘spot the pathology’ moment. You’re dead right. His best impression of the right thing, which is actually the exact opposite. I said to him, “WHY DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND???” I still don’t know whether he did and didn’t care, or honestly thought in his narcissism that he was a good chap. The therapist said that abusers *cannot* allow themselves to know that they are abusers. It’s ego dystonic … doesn’t fit in with their self-image so they chuck it out.

The last thing I read from him (I didn’t even read the last letter he sent) was, ‘I am not a liar. I am not a bad person.’ Considering the first sentence was a total lie, that didn’t leave me with much faith in the second one. Heartbreaking to think he doesn’t know what he does wrong. Sickening if he DOES.

He said to me, about his ex, “She was so ANGRY,” with such an aggrieved look on his face. But … he had made her very sick. He lied to us both to hook us and hold us in his net, and he admitted it at the end. It’s NPD. It’s all he can do: catch as many little fish as he can. It’s not pretty.

Thanks one-step, that gave me a chance to have a small rant. I obviously still have things I need to get off my chest.


Oxy, yeah, he’s FWB with his exes. Makes a point of going back to collect them as soon as he can get away with it. To be honest, I think a lot of it is because of his sexual addiction. Intimacy causes him to have ED, so he has to keep it on his terms. Think there’s a big old ‘madonna/whore’ complex going on when it gets too close.

I agree with your definition of a friend. Funny, one of the first things he ever said to me was, “Trust is more important than love. Lose trust and you’ve lost everything.” Well, it works both ways! Apparently I’m not allowed to betray his trust by talking about what he’s done, but he’s allowed to use the sh*t out of me and I mustn’t complain or I’m the spath.

I have to tell you, I was very, very dysfunctional when I met him. I had a skewed relationship with sex myself, because of my childhood. If I’d not, he wouldn’t have got past the front door. He was not the only sick one in our relationship. The difference is that my problem was not a personality disorder, it was complex ptsd from childhood. I owned my part. He could not. If I am completely honest with you, I always knew he was not friend material and it was only trauma bonding that kept me in there.

I don’t read very often now but am always grateful to people who respond when I do show up. Thanks lf people for being there.

Ox Drover

Dear Verity,

I think many of us were “functional in our DYS-function” and learning that and coming out of our own dys-function and working on healing ourselves allows us to move past the psychopathic relationship into something much better.

The difference is that we have the capacity to learn and grow, and the person high in psychopathic traits either doesn’t have the capacity or doesn’t exercise the capacity they do have to learn and grow.

Accepting that I have not exercised my capacity in the past hurts to admit, but if I lie to myself or others I am acting just like the psychopath so it is important to me that I am HONEST WITH MYSELF.

Whether you are here or where ever, keep on learning verity! I think that only through learning and growth can we reach a satisfying and P-free life! It is nice to know that LF is here isn’t it!


Hugs Oxy. It shames me to think of how I behaved with him, but like you I know honesty is the only way to grow and grow I have. My therapist said today that she hardly recognised me. Addicts not in recovery and the personality disordered will do whatever it takes because of their feelings of entitlement, which he described as his ‘needs’. Even in my dysfunction there were lines I would never cross with another person’s rights. He had no such lines. I would never deliberately mess with another person’s thoughts and reality. At every moment I believed what I was saying (although I found out later my love was only trauma bonding), whereas he knew he was deceiving in order to get what he wanted.

Yes, this site is a lifesaver, I know it. Winding my neck in again for a while now. 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear Verity,

Throw that shame in the trash pile! The shame should be HIS not yours. Forgive yourself (that was the hardest part for me! LOL) and then get on with your life! We can’t change the past and I’m not going to feel “shame” about it for the rest of my life. I’ve done the best I can to make amends to those I had any amends to make to, and I’ve changed the way I respond now, so no more shame for anything unless I’ve done something “bad” recently. LOL

I may go on to do something bad again, but it won’t be the SAME mistakes I made before! LOL At least I can make NEW ONES! LOL (((hugs))))

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