By | April 3, 2012 48 Comments

Deliberate Cruelty From Someone Who Is Meant To Care


Last week I found myself in an intimidating situation that required me to put all my skills of resilience in to practice. I was in the hands of a professional person who should be there to care for others. I was in a hugely vulnerable position, yet instead of receiving care, I felt myself being belittled, bullied and threatened. The person dishing out this particularly cruel treatment was a senior doctor in a private clinic, where I am a patient. A few years ago I would probably have put up with his behaviour, or brushed it off as being just something I mis-read — but not this time. Not now. Not ever again.

So I thought I’d share my story here on Lovefraud.

As you already know, I had a health scare that was resolved a couple of weeks ago. Whilst I was given the all-clear at the time, the doctor said it would make sense to arrange for a biopsy to double-check and to put my mind at rest; purely, he reassured me, because of my family medical history (mum had died of breast cancer at the age of 44). The straight forward needle-biopsy would be done under local anesthetic and would take less than half an hour. So last Thursday, I trotted off to the clinic expecting a purely routine, simple procedure that would prove beyond doubt that I have a clean bill of health.

I felt chirpy, relaxed, and perfectly ready for whatever they wanted to do — a marked difference from my previous visit where I was uptight, frightened and full of dread. They’re a great bunch of people there, and I chatted away happily to the receptionists and also to the technician who came in to explain the details of what was going to happen.

All fine, all good, all dandy — everything made perfect sense (although I felt a little unnerved by the technician’s statement that nobody can be sure that the lump is not cancerous until the tests are completed in the laboratory) and I went in to the doctor’s surgery feeling calm and prepared.

Just When You Least Expect It

I am making a point of telling you this, because I am keen to make it clear why I felt so totally blindsided by what happened next. The friendly technician (Thomas), thank goodness, was still in the room when the doctor arrived. The very moment he walked in, though, the atmosphere changed. The smile went from Thomas’ face, and I felt him tighten up as the doctor criticized everything he had done to prepare me. The cleaning and sterilization wasn’t correct, the anesthetic wasn’t the right one”¦ even the fact that Thomas had allowed me to keep my shoes on was wrong!

Bear in mind I’m lying half naked on a table, my arm above my head with my breast covered in yellow iodine — and here was this so-called professional (who hadn’t even had the courtesy to greet me or even give me a smile) throwing disapproving comments to the friendly technician who had done everything he could to put me at ease. It was a hugely uncomfortable atmosphere, and I felt myself stiffening. I was in a physically vulnerable situation, but there was no way I was going to let myself be bullied by this rude man.

So I started chit-chatting to break the tension. The doctor was sitting next to me but still would not look at me — although I was looking straight up in to his eyes. Can you guess what I saw? The familiar empty, cold and emotionless expression that sent a shiver of recognition down my spine.

I knew how important it was to get this biopsy over and done with, so I kept on looking at the doctor and kept asking questions. He asked me to point out the lump because he was having difficulty finding it on the ultrasound. When I moved my hand towards the area he huffed, rolled his eyes and told me off for accidentally touching a part of my skin. “Now look what she’s done” he spat at Thomas “we’re going to have to sterilize all over again!”

It carried on like that for a good few minutes more. I asked what he could see on the screen and said to him that I’d been told that there was nothing to worry about

“Well, Madame” he sneered, pushing the scanner just a little harder than necessary in to my breast “it doesn’t look like ”˜nothing’ to me — you have lots of cysts, but this”¦ this is something quite different!”

Deliberate Cruelty

He seemed to take pleasure brandishing his power, and deliberately making me nervous. It was working on Thomas, but it wasn’t going to work on me. I kept my focus strong and refused to look away from his eyes — still keeping my expression relaxed and my breathing regular as he picked up a huge needle and brought it close to my breast.

“And now, Madame” he said, fixing me with cold eyes and a straight face “you have to shut your mouth and shut your eyes”

Taking a deep breath and maintaining eye contact, I calmly said no. “I can give you silence” I said “but I am not closing my eyes”

“Well you have to” he replied, a little taken aback by what he probably saw as insolence “I have to work in silence and it annoys me if a patient watches what I am doing. I must instruct you now to close your eyes and keep your mouth shut while I do my work. I need you to do this or I cannot do my work”

“And I need someone who can reassure me and put me at ease” I replied, still staying calm, still smiling, and still fixing him with my gaze “this is my body, and I would like to watch what is happening”

With that, his mask slipped. Blinking furiously, he threw down his instruments, stood up, huffed and puffed and spat out the words “I won’t work in this way Madame, you’ve ruined it. You’ve messed it up, this is your problem. I am leaving – good day Madame!”

And with that he flounced out of the room, slamming the door behind him like a petulant teenager, leaving Thomas and I open-mouthed in the silence that remained.

So that was the end of my biopsy. I sat up, covering myself as best I could and looked to Thomas for some kind of explanation. I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong, but still the whispering questions had already threatened to surface “Is this my fault? Could I have handled this differently?” — but those questions were instantly silenced when I saw Thomas’s face. He was mortified.

“I am so sorry Madame” he said, reaching out to touch my shoulder “this is nothing to do with you. He is a very difficult man and we have had many problems with him. He’s the same with all of us, it’s very bad”

“But this is not right!” I replied, tears of frustration pricking in my eyes and uncontrollable shakes by now beginning to show in my hands “It’s not right that he’s allowed to do this! Why is he in this job? How can he be allowed to treat people this way? It’s totally unacceptable!”

And then came the response I have now become accustomed to hearing

“But he’s our boss. We know it’s wrong, but what can we do?”

Standing Up For What Is Right

This monster works in a clinic that specializes in detecting and treating breast cancer. My heart sank, imagining how many people — staff as well as numerous vulnerable patients — this so-called professional is bullying and criticizing every day of his life. How many people leave the clinic feeling a little less confident, a little more worthless, and in some cases physically abused. People who go there expecting help and support in their darkest moments, and end up feeling belittled and humiliated! But because this man is an educated, revered professional, nobody is standing up to him — so he gets away with it!

I understand that I am the first person this man has actually walked out on. Good, so he’ll remember me. Because I’m also the first person who is going to stand up, speak out, and make certain this man is held accountable for his actions.

The experience shook me enormously. For the next couple of days I found myself bursting in to tears for no apparent reason. But you know what? I’m now back on track and taking the first steps towards dealing with the authorities who are responsible for this man. I’ll let you know how I get on.

In the meantime, my biopsy has been rescheduled with another doctor for Friday 13th April — lucky for some, and super-lucky for me. Well, at least that’s what I’m choosing to think in any case!

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Mel – What a story! Good for you! we should all be so brave!

I hope the guy gets reprimanded – although, of course it’s unlikely to change him. Maybe a whisper campaign is needed – when you hear of another woman in your position, just say, don’t go to Dr. Bully.


What an absolute terrible ordeal for you to have to go through, as if the scare of breast cancer and the biopsy weren’t enough.

I am so glad you stayed strong and that you are standing up for not only yourself, but for other patients as well, in doing what is right to remediate this situation.

i know there have been times when I was not strong enough to stand up for what was right, due to still feeling weak from all the emotional damage sustained.

Your story is inspiring me to continue getting back to who I really am at my core, which is not someone who is afraid to speak up about what’s right either.

It is appalling that someone like him would be employed in such a profession, but I also realize there are no boundaries where spaths are concerned, as far as where they might turn up. They are indeed everywhere, it seems, and esp. where you would least expect.



I am SO amazed at your response and your determination! It is awesome and inspiring. I am sorry you had to be in the room with this horror. But you really stayed in your truth, and I am proud you were able. Every time a LF blogger stays centered and grounded I feel proud and cheered by their success!

OMgosh, I have GOT to get back to work!



Wow. What a story. That’s horrible. Can you report him to the Board of Health? Make a complaint? Get something on record about this SOB?

There are very warped people out there. A year ago January, one of my closest friends was admitted to the cardiac ICU. It was totally unexpected and very upsetting initially.

She would end up dying in a few weeks and she never left that bed alive, but one of the nurses put me through hell.

You could hear the delight in her voice telling me that my friend was probably “going to go,” it really didn’t look that good, but she couldn’t share the patient’s medical condition with me, but she said enough that led me to believe that possibly would happen within hours. This is an ICU nurse. I was so upset that even though I caught the delight in her voice, I was more interested in my friend’s health. I dismissed it because my friend was in such a bad state and I wanted to know her medical status.

I called back within an hour and asked if I should come in and sit with her. I didn’t want her to die alone.

Then the half-laugh came. The gloating was unmistakable, “Oh, you don’t have to come back this evening. I didn’t mean she’d go tonight.”

That’s when I realized what I was dealing with and thought, “Oh yes you did, you bitch.”

Thanks, Mel, for your story and taking the time to write it. I’ve been on a table like that except the surgeon in my case said to the others, even though they knew I was awake, “She’s going to have to come back to have it taken off.” He wasn’t being cruel. Just stupid.

Your ability to speak up for yourself is admirable. Good for you.


Thank you for sharing this “in the moment” and not as a “years afterwards and in retrospect, this is what happened to me” story. It is very, very powerful. Especially your refusal to close your eyes. Your refusal to submit to anyone’s sovereignty over your Self. Amen. And good luck at your try-again biopsy soon. And blessings to Thomas and all others who deal with this beastly man on a daily or one-time basis.


I’m so proud of you! (((hugs)))
The man is spath with no empathy for his patients. They often go into jobs like that. And you don’t know if he would have purposely hurt you or turned in the wrong sample.

When I was 15, someone at a health clinic found ONE lump in my breast and made a big deal. Then I went to my family doctor who did the needle biopsy without anasthetic and told me while he was doing it, that it was probably cancer. WTF?

I got a referral to a surgeon who measured it and said not to worry, it would go away.

the initial family doc was a spath trying to scare me. There are lots of those out there. If a person is evil enough to play with your fear, they are evil enough to do anything.

You did the right thing. That doctor needs to get a job cleaning toilets.


TOWANDA, Mel! What an inspiring story. I’m sorry you had to go through that shit treatment, but wow you did ABSOLUTELY RIGHT by yourself.

I’ve noticed in little ways that I’ve been able to stay incredibly centered when people pressure/bully me into some shitty situation or attempt to manipulate me, on the job, in the classroom, towards my ex-spath’s sister/cousin etc… And if I don’t like what’s going on, I stop everything and just plainly tell people, “This is not ok, not right, and I want you to stop doing this.” I say it calmly, friendly, but I call them on it, and I stop participating in the drama and events. AND it feels SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SELF-EMPOWERING when I do it. Sometimes it has positive results, sometimes it has non other than like that HORRID doctor to run off like a spoiled child, but at the very least I did not end up feeling bullied by people.

I hope you can make an official complaint about this horrid professional.

Ox Drover


It makes me so angry when people who are smart and talented but without empathy become physicans and nurses and health care professionals. The medical profession in particular, and surgeons for some reason, seem to be filled with this type of person. I am so sorry you ahd such a horrible experience…I hope you will get your biopsy in another clinic and do report him to the medical board.

Even many medical schools seem to encourage the GOD complex in their graduates, though this is decreasing somewhat I think in my time as a Registered Nurse Practitioner, as other health care professionals, APNs, PAs are becoming recognized as health care advocates and providers.

Great article and I hope it will encourage more people to stand up for themselves and their own medical care. Unfortunately too many people don’t have your spunk! Good job!!!!


I am a long time reader of LF and have found it a very helpful resourse, I once thought husband here was a spath, he is however Aspergers according to my therapist, he is 68 and has lived all his life without awareness of his condition and is also a Vietnam vet with PTSD although how much is his AS and how much is PTSD is questionable, sadly I will need to leave him because living with him is toxic for me.

The reason I wanted to comment here is that the doctors response of asking the patient to close their eyes is very AS most likely felt uncomfortable being watched, they can also have very harsh and abrupt manner.

As has only been diagnosed in children since the early 90’s with help they can learn to mimic empathy but still can’t feel it, of course there are many adults undiagnosed and many are in medicine as well as IT and engineering. I hasten to add here that it makes very little difference to the experience whether it AS or something else.

There is another site that I usually post on and many of the parents there hope their children to not choose medicince because of thier poor people skills, not good thing in a doctor!

I can imagine what a horrible experience this must have been, and what label we stick on the doctor doesn’t matter, good on you Mel for standing up for yourself, many of us may have complied, although I may have before, but not now.

It’s amazing how people like these are acceptable to practise with people they should be in a lab, where a lot of them would be much happier, of course I understand that many doctors maybe spath as well, this just struck me as AS.

Believe me AS can be incrediblebly toxic in a relationship there may be, and often is porn addiction, major meltdowns, circular crazy making arguments, sex addiction or no interest, and usually high conflict divorce, and did I mention lies, and recreating history, yep it is easy to confuse them but in the end it’s all toxic to live with.

Thanks for this great site I have learned so much, you all rock.



you are right, the doctor does sound like Aspergers. My BF can’t work while being watched and he is very exacting too.

There are plenty of jobs that a doctor without people skills can take, he doesn’t have to make human beings who are already suffering, more miserable.

Lady Ruiz

Great post!!! The late Mary Kay Ash chose 13 as her lucky number. I hope you find great results and a compassionate doctor.

mmmary, you bring up a valid point — the end result being that regardless of the dx, the resulting environment is toxic for YOU. That’s what I see time and time again on these boards whenever other disorders are mentioned. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter whether someone is hurting you out of ignorance, incapability, or sport — it hurts.

the sisterhood

GOOD FOR YOU, Mel!! I so admire the way you stood your ground. All the best for the 13th. You have many supporters here that will be thinking of you and sending good vibes, prayers, and wishes your way.

Lady Ruiz, I totally agree, “At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter whether someone is hurting you out of ignorance, incapability, or sport it hurts.” -Well said!

Lady Ruiz

the sisterhood: I would say this to the bf time and time again, when he would say, mad that I was hurt, “But I didn’t mean to hurt you when I did/said that.” I would say, “What does a cop say when you say, “I didn’t MEAN to drive so fast!”? You still drove too fast. You still have to pay the ticket.


A retired nurse told me that what she was starting out, nurses not only had to hold doors open in a hospital to let the MDs pass, but they had to bow their heads and curtsey in acknowledgment as well.

I’ve found that god-thinking present in the psychology field as well. Boy, do we give away our power there. We lay ourselves bare, seek explanations, and hold what the therapists say as gospel. Not everybody is like that, but there are a good number who are.

A question for you, mmmary, how did your therapist determine that about your husband? Did she ever meet or evaluate your husband? Most mental health professionals that I know are adamant against diagnosing anyone that they have never seen (or only have second-hand information about.) And when it comes to psychopathy, most of them are not trained in that area at all.

One reason that I ask is that my S mother and P sister went to the P’s therapist to get “family therapy” about me meaning they think you can go to a therapist, describe what you think is wrong with someone, and the therapist will tell you what’s wrong with that person and how to handle them. You do NOT want to know what my P sister thought “tough love” entitled her to do-and she thought I needed it.

Anyway, whenever I got around them, I’d shut down and withdraw. Not in an emotionally disturbed fashion, more in a gray rock manner. They decided that meant I had multiple personalities because they had heard and seen me act differently with others.

My P sister actually reported back to me (shows you how much she knows) that the therapist said, “I doubt that she (me) has multiple personalities, but I wouldn’t doubt that she dissociates.” As in mentally escaping from these people.

I found that hysterically funny because obviously the therapist had a good clue what I was up against.


Mel, you are an inspiration. I love your articles and get something timely in each one I read (coincidence?). This one inspires me to stand up to a “friend” who belittles me constantly. I have avoided it too long.

Thank you for the push I’ve been needing.


Dear Mel, I am sorry you experienced this horrible man, and I commend you for acting as you did; it is a very tough thing to do specially when you are in the most vulnerable position and in profound doubt about everything and forced to undergo terrible exams. ((((((Hugs))))) After all you are the customer and he has to provide a service that is worth the price you pay, and you are entitled to report bad service provided. These clinics all have quality control programs and they take complaints VERY seriously! Customer satisfaction is one of the very important benchmark items!

Spath or Asperger or bad hair day, he has to be empathetic and understanding or he is in the wrong place. Specially if he is in a breast cancer clinics where he can’t avoid dealing with conscious anxious hypervigilant women all the time.

And I am sure he is not THE boss but just one small to the maximum inflated Nought who has other bosses above him who do the same onto him as he did onto you.

When I watched for the first time “Dr. House” I was shocked because he acted SO REAL (I encountered in every hospital I worked at least two or three of them) and I thought the script writer was a traitor revealing the TRUE medical profession behind the facade… Later I learned that patients adored House for his cleveness and hoped for a brain like him in OUR hospital too!) They saw the fiction and not behind the mask.

Dear Mel, I wish you all the best for your exam, and keep my fingers crossed!


MEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE A HEROIINE!!!! Good for YOU!!! I was just talking with a dear friend the other day about just such people in positions of power. We are SO vulnerable when we are at the mercy of physicians and some of these people take their power and narcissism to such a level that it’s terrifying.

GOOD for you, Mel, honestly. It’s SO good to read that someone has had the cheek and righteous indignation to remind these demi-gods that the only thing that they have that we don’t is an education. Not everyone is meant to practice medicine, especially the jackass that you’ve described! I hope he NEVER forgets you OR your unsterlized breast!!!!



That just horrifies me, Mel! You really did everything right, and I would strongly encourage you to report him as well. To think of all the poor women who didn’t have your strength and had to be violated by him is appalling! “First do no harm”, right? He should be removed from that practice.


Yes, I do love stories of appropriately “standing up for yourself.” Bullies hate to be exposed. Get ready that he will make up some lie about you in the exam room….. that “you were difficult, uncooperative, non-compliant, refused proper treatment,” etc.

That is how these monsters operate, with an air of authority. I think go online and write a review about Dr. Monster. Expose, expose, expose.

It is the people that keep the “people” (monsters) in line.
Here is a quote by Edmund Burke:
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

One More by Winston Churchill:
“Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never in nothing,
great or small, large or petty never give in except to convictions of
honor and good sense.”

Ox Drover

When I had my cataract surgery recently they gave me a double hand full of papers to sign and read when I was at the outpatient surgery center.

In the US and I am sure in other countries as well there are PEER REVIEW ORGANIZATIONS (PRO) who go over complaints about care.

In the US all hospitals and clinics that receive Federal MEDICARE funds or payments must agree to a PRO and so any complaints are investigated.

The PRO for my state reports to the Health Facilities Services at the STate Department of health for my state. The papers I was given gave me the address of this office to send any complaints in, and my medical record number and account number to give them.


It’s funny how, once you understand sociopathy, you can look back over your life and make sense of certain interactions. I think I have come across several such people, and administering injections was involved twice. This is such a means of control, as most people have some degree of fear or discomfort with a needle looming down on them. Particularly in the mouth! I had a dentist who was doing some pretty horrible work on a cracked tooth, it involved drilling down deep. During the drilling it became evident that there had not been enough anaesthetic (on purpose?), or enough time for it to work. I was unable to keep still and cried out in pain. He pretty much slammed me back down and spoke to me in a very inappropriate way, telling me he had ‘told me not to move’. The nurse by his side was smiling. They were a team. In a way, spotting these people now is both scarey as there are so many (in positions of power and influence often), and revealing. The world makes more sense, my past makes more sense, but I feel a loss of innocence, and a sense of great danger. I feel I am almost luminous to them, as if they see me in a crowd. Also, is it just me, or is there a kind of spectrum, with a great many people, perhaps most, having some of these awful characteristics. The world seems such a hostile place right now.

Ox Drover


Welcome to LF.

You asked is there a spectrum of these characteristics? The answer I think is a resounding YES!

It is possible that you moving at a critical time in the procedure might have endangered the success of the procedure, BUT that said, the dentist should have not treated you like that and should have made sure you had plenty of medication.

I understand that such behavior can make the world appear a very scary place and medical/dental procedures as well.

Again, welcome.


Hi there, thanks for your welcome and comment. Thanks for getting my name right as well, even though I spelt it wrong :).

I have found myself going back over my whole life to seek out these people. I know my sister (3 years older) is, and feel this set the template perhaps for attracting them in later life. Being three years older, I never knew any different. One good thing that has come out of all this is that I have now detached with NC, and no guilt about this!

I have had 10 months of therapy following three years of hell, but because the therapist didn’t understand, it was quite frustrating at times. Mostly I have read as much as possible. I’m lucky in that my ex had a diagnosis in the ‘cluster B’ category. It was easy to then see that she actually had all the other ‘symptoms’ of a sociopath.

In terms of the dentist, I appreciate what you are saying, but it is a ‘feeling’, that feeling of being in the presence of people that are enjoying their job for the wrong reasons – of giving pain. An unmistakeable sadistic quality that leaves you feeling helpless. Your primeval ‘fight or flight’ kicks in. But, unless you understand that people like this really do exist, your mind fights with what your body tells you.

I have always found myself asking a question. If Nazi germany came here and now, to where I live, what roles would the people around me take? Who would be the concentration camp guards? Who would turn on their neighbours?

The other doctor I spoke of was found guilty of serious professional misconduct, but not struck off. He had detached from the national health service and gone out on his own. He didn’t use the usual guidelines set down which meant that everyone with this problem went to him, knowing they would be treated on the first appointment instead of having to wait. He set himself up in a position of enormous power, being feted as the foremost authority on the subject, and appearing on TV chat shows many times. Again, injections were involved. He became very rich, and at his trial, was surrounded by those he had treated who were his enablers. They believed they were his ‘friends’.

I have a sense that there is a battle between good and evil. Evil has had the upper hand in that it is hidden. If you are knocking around playing tennis, and really one side is playing a game in their head, and playing to win, then there is an unfair advantage. I hope with the internet and flurry of books that this advantage will be lost over time. Is that why so many are driven to write to help others understand?


I should add that I am a woman, and it was a gay ‘relationship’, we had a civil partnership. My name is derived from Aesop’s fables, specifically ‘The Tortoise and the Hare’. At the moment, I am the Hare, trailing somewhat behind, but catching the ‘Hares’ up in my own time (I hope!).

Ox Drover


Funny, I didn’t even realize that you had spelled it wrong. That is how our eyes are, if the first letter and the last letter of a word are correct, we can “read” it as totally correct. LOL Well, glad I got it right anyway.

Also glad that you are here. Gay straight doesn’t make a hill of beans where a psychopath or Cluster B of any kind is concerned. they are all TOXIC. That’s what I think is so out of sight with therapists, what difference does it make what the “diagnosis” is as long as that person is TOXIC, the relationship isn’t going to work.

I too have often wondered about if Nazis came to my town (if I lived in town) so I will say COMMUNITY…and I can I think figure out who would be what….scary really, because you never know when such a thing WILL happen. It has happened over and over in the history of man kind. Look at the interment camps for Japanese in the US during WWII…I’m reading a book now about the union versus non union miners in Idaho in the early 1900s and the killing of a former governor of that state by union members he had offended when he was governor. It happens, it can happen. There are people in many walks of life who are psychopaths who will take advantage of that position to use/abuse others and the cycles of abuse continue in homes, schools, politics, business and any venue you can imagine.

I hope “education” will help, but actually I’m not sure that it will help a great deal except in RETROSPECT…people are not much interested in what doesn’t directly effect them.

There is a story about a Jewish family that emigrated to canada BEFORE the Nazis started arresting Jews, the man “saw it coming” and tried to WARN his friends and family members to FLEE while they could, even with the clothes on their backs, but no one wanted to listen, they said to him “But what would we do with the furniture?” Well, sadly he departed, walking with his family with just their clothes and what valuables they could carry. The daughter remembered her mother giving a man her wedding ring for ferry passage but they survived, their friends died and no longer had to worry about what to do with the furniture.

Too many of us were warned (one way or another) but we did not heed those warnings—we ignored the red flags we saw.

Now, though, we will no longer ignore that kind of warning notice. But the education had to come AFTER we were willing to listen. “Life is a tough teacher, she gives the test first and the lesson afterward.” (don’t know who said that, but I will always remember it.)

Again, welcome.


I like that: “Life is a tough teacher, she gives the test first and the lesson afterward.” It’s all a bit fresh still, but I get glimpses of a spiritual jump, like an electrical surge, while everyone else around me carries on at the ‘usual’ evolutionary pace. Also, a real feeling of good and evil at play, which, given that everything seems to have an opposite, I guess should be no surprise. I just never realised it was right under my nose!

Thankyou for the welcome. I’m at a bit of a loose end these days, having lost my car, licence, business, savings, and sanity to this women, so reading about other people’s experiences and insights is a good way to start getting back on track again.

Ox Drover

Sorry Aesop, they do seem to try to clean us out and leave us destitute if they can. It is amazing really how entitled they feel to what we have…what we worked for.

So far I have retained my home, but can still lose it. During the worst of teh chaos I had to leave to be safe, and am prepared to leave again if I need to to be safe…but also realize that it is not STUFF that makes us happy or secure. It is what is inside us, ourselves that is important. I am no longer dependent on STUFF to feel secure. I can literally walk away with what I have on my back if I must. It is more a different state of mind now than anything. So I’ve been broke before, may be again, but as long as I have myself then I am okay.

So hang on to yourself Aesop. Also I suggest that you read “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Dr. Viktor Frankl, he wrote it affter getting out of the Nazi death camps, lost everything….and he looked at the way he and others coped with the horror there, and found meaning in it. We can too.

No one else’s pain is more or less than anyone else’s not even considering what they have lost. Even a baby’s pain is TOTAL when he drops his passie….each of us has total pain.

It is a great book for survivors of any kind of trauma/drama.


Loved what you said about STUFF, Oxy. I agree. 1,000%.


Well, I know this is going off the topic a bit, but i’m going to jump right in here, and then never mention it again. I kind of want to know if you understand what happened and why. I know you all know what it is like to be taken in by one of these kind, so I don’t need to tell you about the lies, cheating, stealiing, and abuse. I had already been driven into a psychiatric hospital after 18 months. She came back when I was discharged. I was too ill to know what was happening, and she did the whole thing again. I had a relapse and became ill again, and slapped her in the street when she approached me. By this point she was stalking me. Long story short, she overpowered me, laughing, then phoned the police and I was charged with assault. I was too ill to understand what a solicitor was and so was interviewed without representation, then released. A few hours later I wrote my car off by crashing it into a dead end, I don’t really remember it. There followed a further four weeks of hospital, then six months of court. She turned up at court to watch from the gallery. She had lied throughout her statement. She continued to harrass me with letters, phonecalls, emails, drive bys etc, until eventually serving me with a petition for divorce – the grounds being unreasonable behaviour! All I had ever done was been a complete sucker and loved her and tried to help her (my problem, I know). Finally, after being convicted and given a years probation, the judge put a restraining order on ME (she is still harrassing me, and the police will do nothing), and she had him say it was ‘indefinate’ on her request. As if I wanted her in my life. Rant over. I am getting there. She is still stalking me and I have had to have the locks changed again (she broke into my house at one point in the middle of the night, she’d had a key cut). Her past includes being held hostage at knife point, battery acid on the bonnet of her car, and two other exes self-harming after being in a ‘relationship’ with her. She told me all this, blaming them, and I believed her. No doubt she has now added me to that list. My past is boring by the way, and I hope it soon gets back to that. I don’t regret anything though, as torturous as it has all been, I know these things make us stronger. Ok, I shan’t mention it again, just had to get it off my chest. Hope you understand, I have struggled with the stigma of a conviction, it’s hard to explain to people because, as you know, unless you have been with people like this, you can’t really understand the madness of it all. I never knew I had a breaking point.


Aesop, I got a restraining order because the ex spath had damaged my car pretty bad with his fists and key and later came back to break in my house to rob me for the second time.

The ex spath wanted nothing to do with me at that point except pure outright harm and destruction. I was too afraid to tell the police about my car or the break-in because he has a long criminal record and was taking and dealing drugs. These psychopaths are evil dangerous people and you NEED to keep all evidence of her harassing you and take it to the police as many times as it takes to get a protective order for yourself.

They don’t scare easily when it comes to restraining orders, though, so be prepared. Look up Gray Rock here on lovefraud. It might be your only option. If you bore her she might tire of you and the endless source of blood-pumping, life-giving drama they so crave.

Good luck.

Ox Drover

Woundlicker, Just an “educated guess” but it doesn’t sound to me like Aesop’s psychopath is the type to just get bored and go away, it sounds to me that vengeance is her motive and she enjoys that. So physical and other damage is the motivating factor. Also I have a feeling that all the “crazy” ex’s are people she is A) either lying about and SHE is the crazy one, or she has B) driven them to the brink of suicide with her stalking etc.

This woman sounds to me both cunning and DANGEROUS.

I suggest that if at all possible Aesop that you leave the area and move somewhere she can’t find you.

I had to do that and fortunately without kids, I left in the middle of the night and “disappeared” and I was actually only a few miles away living in a recreational area in a recreational vehicle and where I was no one thought anything about a new person moving on to the lake and no one here knew I was gone as I left in the middle of the night. Only my stalker knew because he sneaked up to my house…but it was too late. I was GONE until he went to jail.

So take a “powder” as we say here and disappear. If she got all your “stuff” and you dont have anything to worry about head for the hills. Even if you have some stuff, don’t worry about it, it is just “stuff” and can be replaced. Your life and safety is more important.


I can’t imagine what you must have felt to have left like that in the middle of the night Ox Drover. My ex always appeared to fear the police. It has always been driving other people to either harm themselves or lash out at her. She is physically very strong but plays the victim amazingly. It’s sickening to watch a bully switch to coward mode in this way. Its the ‘unknown quantity’ that I see. I think she got her jollies from seeing me dragged through the court system, and by showing up every now and then she retains control. It means I am always hypervigilant when out (or in, as she broke in).

I am working on trying to ‘use it’, the whole experience, so that I can make a success out of it. It’s just kind of hard at the moment, because it has been a case of going over and over every second of it. It is triggered all the time by just about everything around me. Just waking up in the morning triggers it! There is so much to process, knowing that everything in those first few months was a lie, then the utter madness and betrayel that followed. I think because she managed to get the courts and police to abuse and punish me by playing the victim, there is a feeling that this ‘evil’ pervades all areas of society. After I had crashed the car, and while horizontal on a hospital bed and ‘insane’, I reached out to grab a policeman’s torch. There were three in the cubicle, waitiing to take me to the psychiatric hospital again (complete breakdown), and one of them got on the bed and leant on me until he broke a rib, while another held down my other side so I couldn’t breathe. So, it’s everywhere I fear!

Sorry to bang on. I really haven’t been able to find anyone that could understand. I guess reading as much as possible and trying to figure out what it means in terms of spiritually moving on is the way to go. Hard to feel spiritual with so much anger. I hate that I am so angry (more anger :)), because I wasn’t before.



Yes, you said, “I hate that I am so angry, …because I wasn’t before.” It was only after my spath-encounter that I had so much anger, being hard to deal with it. The awful experiences that they inflict upon us makes us that way. In my case, I’m still working through the anger.

Ox Drover


The anger will come and go I think, it is part of the grieving process. I think from what you describe you’ve had a difficult time of it.

I hope you are still getting some therapy in addiction to being here on LF.

LF can teach you how to spot these people and be supportive to you while you learn, but sometimes we also need real world support. God bless.


Freudian slip Ox Drover – ‘therapy in addiction’, instead of addition? So true though, I was definately addicted. She knew it too, taunted me by saying so. It is like being given a shot of heroin, then depending on them for the next hits, which are never as good. Not that I have ever tried heroin etc. Anyways, thankyou.

The therapy over here isn’t as good as the USA, I have seen two therapists, but noone seems to understand this particular problem. Over here they downplay ‘personality disorders’. They ignore the more serious ones completely, unless murder etc is a factor. I know narcissism is hard to spot, but they also call Borderline ’emotional dysregulation disorder’. I feel their approach is too soft, and certainly not helpful to those targetted.

The internet is more representative, thousands of websites for those who have fallen prey, but few to those who are disordered – what would be the point, as if they would read them, let alone take heed.

It will get better though, I feel it. Like coming through a long tunnel. 🙂

Ox Drover


I suggest that you learn all you can. Knowledge is power, indeed. Learning to spot the red flags before you get involved with the person is very protective. I actually advise people against getting involved in dating again for at least a year post P experience due to the stress and trauma leaves you open to being “love bombed” successfully by the next one. They seem to know when you have been injured by one, you are easier prey for the next one…but some people (I did it after my husband died) jump into a new relationship before the healing is “sufficient” (I say that instead of “done” because I think healing is a forever process) to protect you from being sucked in again.

Well, the healing starts out in learning about them then progresses to learning about US so maybe the therapist can help you learn why you were vulnerable to the P in the first place. That would be a big help. Good luck.


I’m glad you set some good boundaries for yourself and stood your ground. But, on the other hand what you may be looking at may not be s Spath at all. Instead it may be burn out level grief, AKA:TS. Ongoing Traumatic Grief and Stress.

It is a very, very difficult job this man has. One where he has to detect and treat a devistating disease. It can be overwhelming. Emotionally distancing is one way of protecting oneself from the overwhelming pain that comes from the multiple emotional soul ties; and from taking God-like responsibility for each one.

It comes from a heart that has been broken over and over again from not being able to save patients that became dear to him. Grief, stuck, building up and overwhelming, can present as coldness.

Please think about this.

I know that you are hurting right now. And right now it is very important for you to stand up for yourself. But, please be careful not to project onto the people you meet the load put on you from the Spaths who have done you such harm.

With love from experience,


BB, from what was described, it wasn’t burnout but arrogance. And, there are counseling therapists trained to assist surgeons, social workers, child protective workers, and other professionals to manage burnout.

While burnout might explain the surgeon’s behaviors (though, I distinctly doubt it), it should not excuse or allow it, under any circumstances. ANY surgeon who has been identified by coworkers and colleagues as someone who is very difficult to work with should be ON NOTICE to get therapy and do some desk work for a while before they inflict serious damage upon an unsuspecting patient who, oh-by-the-way, is paying THEIR salary.

I don’t believe that there’s any “projection” going on, here. The surgeon behaved badly, and that’s the bottom line.

Ox Drover

Truthspeak, I agree with you. No matter WHAT the reason, the surgeon should not have treated the patient if his command of his behavior was such that he would treat a patient in that manner.

Demonstrating compassion for the patients who are anxious, scared, etc. is PART OF THE TREATMENT, not just the biopsy.

As a medical professional, I can say without qualification that man’s behavior was 100% abusive.


OxD….absolutely abusive. And, when this surgeon’s own colleagues and “underlings” have him pegged as “difficult,” then an Administrative decision needs to be made to order that surgeon behind a desk or in a lab, and into some counseling therapy.

By proxy, physicians, surgeons, and other “professionals” wield incredible power – THEY are the ones who have the knowledge to tell us whether we have a serious illness or not, and what our options are if we do. That, alone, puts them into a position of extreme power and control, BY PROXY.

OxD….100% abusive, yep.


Dear BB, you are to commend to try to walk in this man’s shoes. That you (from experience) try to understand him, make excuses for his behaviour, could be percieved as enabling, (maybe your own MD treated you in the same way? I hope not!) . To me it is cold abuse of the most vulnerable and executing power at its worst. Disgusting!

This man earns a lot of money from the patient’s fees, and nobody has forced him to be a MD in a breast clinic. It is so well payed BECAUSE it is difficult, so just the most dedicated and mentally fit should work there!

He has to be told how his behaviour is percieved by his clients. When it is really that

….”It comes from a heart that has been broken over and over again from not being able to save patients that became dear to him. Grief, stuck, building up and overwhelming, can present as coldness.”…..,

then this man urgently needs professional coaching if not treatment for burn out or depression. And he has to be removed ASAP from any patient contact.

As Mel stated it is so for years and it is affecting the whole team. So my opinion is that this man is not in the right place, BECAUSE this man has a very very difficult job. I commend Mel for calling a spade a spade.

Ox Drover

Libelle, You as an MD having worked with cancer patients, I respect your opinion on this absolutely and totally agree with you. I imagine the problem is though that this man owns the clinic or the practice. Maybe not, if not maybe something can be done. It is very unfortunate in any case.

I think part of the problem in our society today is that we “excuse” the bad behavior of young gangs by saying “they don’t have a father” or “no one encouraged them to stay in school” and it seems that there is an ‘excuse” for every person’s bad behavior. But to me, I propose that each person be responsibile for their own behavior and the consequences of it.


OxD – BRAVO!!!! If only there WERE consequences.


Dear Oxy, you are so right: to excuse is a very difficult topic. When we excuse we take a part of the responsibility of the wrongdoer and we give away a part of our own power, and the wrongdoer by excusing himself is giving away some of the responsibility and the consequences he had to resume alone.

Therefore it is always very embarrassing for the wrongdoer and difficult for the “excuser” NOT to accept an excuse even when it does not come from a sincere heart, because it is a very strong statement of the excuser executing the power of discerning right from wrong and placing the responsibility where it belongs. So we have to take good care whom we absolve or not.

Truthspeak: I strongly believe in karma.


A guy like this? Fire him on the spot and refuse to pay the bill.

I get this from teachers we work with all the time. Like an excuse makes it ok to do something that is not only rude, but technically illegal when it comes to educating the disabled.

As though an excuse and some shmooze is supposed to make it ok?

Um, I’m thinking not so much.

That kind of Jedi magic doesn’t work with me…..

When that kind of thing happens its critical to remember that the real power lies in the hands with a customer and we can vote with our dollars.

We have no obligation to keep bad people in business or to go back for more mistreatment.

Its easy with Doctors.

Try to get a teacher disciplined or fired….
That is much more difficult and what they do to abuse students is much more subtle often.

But, if we as “customers” keep going back and accepting the excuses, then the continuation is something we have fostered.

Its come up before on love fraud… “No is a complete sentence”.


Dear Silver, my point was to NOT excuse this kind of behaviour. In fact that we must be very careful whom we grant an excuse, as we give away power with it.

And you are perfectly right that teachers are a complete other league to deal with when it comes to discipline or have them fired, even when they abuse children for years. (I have first hand experience in a country that is said to have one of the best public schooling systems in the world. It is pathetic, how power is executed by authorities on the backs of the most vulnerable just to save one’s behind because of bad judgement for years)

It takes lots of stamina and firmness to stick to the non-excuse, as Mel did, specially in her dire circumstances (this is what such rats are counting on, that people are so shocked that they do not say anything).

Mel, you should report this incident to either the supervisors of this clinic or the national board and the health authorities and furthermore refuse to see this particular MD and change clinics alltogether when he is the owner.

I chuckled as I read about you chit-chating and refusing to close your eyes “because you wanted to watch what was being done to your body”.You deserve an Oscar!
Because of things I’ve been through in my life,I prefer female Drs,if I have a choice.They understand how a woman feels and it’s easier to converse with them;especially if something is worrying you.
A few monthes ago I underwent a hysteroscopy & d&c .The gynecologist was male.Nice enough I guess.His motto is “Honest & Compassionate Care”.I was just disappointed that he barely even looked at me or talked when I went back for my checkup 2 wks later.


Thx to Mel,

What a great story of courage under cruelty….that man is in a position of power, that he uses to abuse his pateints and subordinate staff. That you did not tolerate his treatment is a testament to how we can go beyond the frail-creature state that a spath wants us to stay in!
I tolerated much cruelty from the man I thought I was in love with….this is not going to happen again. I intend to come out of this stronger.


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