There can be different perspectives of the sociopath (and other seriously exploitive personalities). These perspectives can offer different experiences of these disturbed individuals. At the same time each perspective offers, I suggest by definition, both a somewhat advantageous and yet limited view of the sociopath.
Living with a sociopath, or finding oneself involved deeply in a “committed” relationship with a sociopath, will offer an incomparably intimate experience of the horrors that sociopaths can inflict on their partners.
Clearly no one, and that includes the so-called “experts” on sociopathy (clinicians and researchers, for instance) will be able to appreciate the impact of the sociopath, on this level, like the partner who has lived with, or been closely involved with, one.
This close, personal relationship confers upon the partner of the sociopath a certain knowledge of sociopathy and, I stress, a certain intimate experience of the sociopath that no clinician or “expert” can possibly approximate; thus, the sociopath’s partner’s experience is surely a unique one, qualifying him or her, from this particular intimate vantage point, as really the ultimate “expert” on sociopathy.
Now thankfully I’ve never lived with a sociopath, a fact which also happens to limit my experience with sociopathic personalities—specifically, in this case, the experience of having lived with one, and had my life razed by one.
In this sense my, or anyone’s, clinical experience of sociopathic individuals—just like one’s clinical experience of any individual—is limited by the structure of the clinical relationship. It is a relationship with boundaries provided inherently, so that the clinician or researcher (unlike the sociopath’s partner) is for the most part protected emotionally and physically from the sociopath’s most damaging, hurtful, violating behaviors.
On one hand, the protection to which I refer—again, a protection that’s inherent in the clinical setting—clearly limits the clinician’s capacity to fully experience the sociopath; on the other hand, the very structure of the clinical setting may enhance the clinician’s ability to apprehend aspects of sociopaths that may elude the sociopath’s partner, because he or she—the clinician— again unlike the sociopath’s partner, in operating within a structure of safety and protection, can observe and study the sociopath more freely and through a much wider lens.
The clinican is afforded the chance to observe and study sociopaths’ attitudes, their interactions, their styles, their variations, their differences. And, of course, not just one of these individuals, but many.
And so the clinician’s experience with sociopaths, while less rich and informative in some important ways than the partner’s experience of the sociopath, in other ways yields him or her different, additional opportunities to grasp how sociopathically-oriented individuals think and act.
And yet over and over again, I note it when a Lovefraud member points out, “But what do YOU know? Or what does HE know? You (or HE) never lived with a sociopath!”
And my response, whenever I read these comments, is to agree with them wholeheartedly. They are entirely valid comments and speak a truth that all so-called “experts” on sociopathy should heed well: those who have lived with the sociopath possess a certain knowledge and experience of the sociopath that is not only unique (as I’ve suggested), but non-attainable to a clinician in any sort of safe, protective clinical setting.
In this sense, or certainly in many respects, the clinician has much more to learn from the sociopath’s partner than the other way around.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of the male gender pronouns is strictly for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
There wasn’t a day that went by, that I didn’t experience pure craziness while raising my daughter. I begged for help and no one would listen. Those that did, offered nothing. When I look back (and this is to Rosa) I saw a brief period of time when I could have done something if I had known her true diagnosis. She was 7. Many variables came into play at that time, but its easy now to look back and see where things could have ultimately been different. The younger they are, there is a chance at saving them. Getting them away from the SP influence is the most important. I know you are in a bad position but I would seriously consider bringing it to the attention of family services. I wouldn’t do it anonymously because you want the worker to know the seriousness of the situation and provide documentation.
I am in school now. Working towards a degree in psychology. I hope to someday help children that are high risk. My hope is that I can save at least one child as I truly believe that if there is intervention early on, a child can be saved and it is not something that we just have to accept.
Hi, Me again. Advice please…maybe too late.
Any consolation?
My spath is putting our 2 year old son on his vision/dental insurance.
I tried to argue against it, and I have not aksed him to pay a dime if I got it through my insurance, though I also did not tell him he doesn’t have to pay.
apparently his insurance is “free” for “family”.
Is there a red flag here?
or
a reason I should do anything to stop him from putting our son on HIS insurance?
Thanks as always.
Fight
Thanks, all of you, for your advice & encouragement!
Oxy,
what you said about not going back & re-hurting myself with remembering the 10,000 cruelly deceptive things he did to me was important. I wasn’t able to get those thots out of my mind for the first 2 months after he left. Worse yet, I wasn’t able to stop mourning for what I THOT we had & were supposed to be doing together now (living on the beach in Mexico, as he is w/ the GodlyWife.) I told my therapist yesterday that I’ve gotten both of those things down to only plaguing me like once or twice an hour now, & I can SomeTimes tell myself, “NO! I’m not going to think about that!” And switch to positive, affirming thots—even tho I’m still in the process of convincing myself that those positive, affirming thots are valid. 🙁
But, Oxy, I’m not re-hurting myself because of what I didn’t realize “then”…..what keeps hurting is the other thing you mentioned: The Betrayal. That’s why my name is WhyMe, & until I can let go of the trying to understand “why me”, I can’t change it to NotMe. (But it’s a great positive affirmation of where I’m going, & as soon as I can banish the demons, I Will change it!)
bluejay,
you said, “At the end of the road, when we’ve been burned, we remember the signs that we saw, putting them together, completing the picture ”“ our partner was a no-good person.” That’s what I’m doing now, with remembering those signs I defiantly ignored: continually reminding myself that J was/is a NoGoodPerson! I don’t know how long it’s gonna take to get that firmly planted in *me*—I already recognize it intellectually….it’s the rest of me that still wants to argue about it.
Also, bluejay, you asked me a couple of days ago why he would’ve been making Ecstasy, since he was such an accomplished environmental scientist….I thot I’d posted an answer to that—I remember writing it! Maybe I left it on Preview & it never posted…?? Anyhow, since I can’t find that response, I’ll tell you. He always said that, since he’d been in psychedelic circles for so long, he had many friends who kept prompting him to use his expertise to make pure & perfect MDMA. Now, with what I know about SPs, I recognize that it, also, was something he did for thrill of the risk….the constant adrenalin rush of knowing he was dancing on the razor’s edge….knowing that he could’ve been busted at any time, & that he’d lose his $120k yr legal job/bizness & all the material possessions he’d accumulated….but he reveled in the feeling that he was too damn smart, too frickin clever, to be caught.
one step,
I feel we’re feeling some of the same things…..I, too, am dealing with a degree of poverty—not the worst I’ve ever had to trudge thru—-but a huge $downturn from when J was still here……..& WAY WAY down from what I thot was just ahead of us with his impending success in his work, & our moving to Mexico to live the lovely life of ex-pats. As it is, my son & I are still battling my SP brother who hasn’t put any effort into selling our family ranch & settling my mother’s estate (after 8 yrs) because it allows him to have Control over us & Deny us what should’ve long ago been ours! But there’s also the satisfaction of knowing that J & the GW’s future has been dimmed by the $20mil lawsuit from the biz partner he screwed over, & that the IRS wants $72K in back taxes…..& I know he’s in fear that the GW’s wealthy family will find him out & the playhouse will come tumbling down!
Kathleen,
So Much of what you said today resonated with me! Tho I’ve never read any of your posts until today, I can see why others have said they have missed your insight & wisdom here! But one of the things that struck me most was the emphasis on “survival”:
“my point is that we actually know and understand sociopaths a lot better than we might imagine. And that as we getter better, we may come to recognize that what they do is so outrageous, because they are acting on a level that we ordinarily keep reserved for life-or-death emergencies (or protection of our addictions, whatever they are). No rules, no compassion, totally centered on themselves and whatever they think is important for their impulse-satisfaction or survival.”
In the emails from my ex SP after he left me, he told me time after time that he was “soooo sorry”, that it was so “terribly sad” that he’d abandoned me, but that he “HAD TO SURVIVE!” I kept asking, “so it was okay for you to destroy me for your survival?” In fact, he actually wrote to our SundaySchool class that it was just so “sad & difficult, but sometimes one must put on their own oxygen mask first!” I told him his analogy failed, in that, if he were the adult putting on his own oxygen mask first, he’d allowed “the child” to die!! He used these sorts of comments many times after leaving me…..”I have to survive”….”I’m just a small, quiet man, & all I have is my soul.” And even, “you are a sacred being & you have blessed my life for sure, but I have a life to live!”
Kathleen – I quite like that theory of personality disorders. It resonates with the idea that all people have the full spectrum of both virtue and vice within them but just need to find balance. For sociopaths this might mean developing an empathic side (not sure whether that is possible or not) but for empaths, it means when ending the bloodsucking dynamic that we need to be as strong and cold as the sociopath.
In my case that was the only approach that worked to end the relationship. Any attempt on my part to ‘understand’ or ’empathise’ or ‘support’ was used as a way to manipulate and bully me. It was only when I was ready to shut off my feelings that I was able to make some progress in ending the dynamic. Any opening was used to make me feel bad and responsible for everything that had gone wrong. I hated being cold – it went against everything I believed in, but I had tried being loving and kind and just got used and abused.
I do feel stronger now and like I am more prepared to realistically engage with the world as an adult. But I have lost the illusion that the world is a safe place filled with people who are basically good. And that loss of illusion still makes me very sad.
I don’t think a clinician needs to experience sociopathy firsthand in order to help people. We need them to be objective in order to help us when we’re in the middle of it, buying the sociopath’s version of truth.
If a clinician had been involved personally I don’t see how they could retain any kind of objectivity.
I am just so grateful to my therapist and to anyone in the profession who is aware of these aggressive manipulators and willing to help their victims.
THanks for all your thoughtful comments. I’m on my way to bed, but just wanted to respond quickly.
Oh hens, loooong post, I know. Thanks for reading it. I just had a really big thought to get down. Knowing about those wild cards is sure better than not. Being able to exercise a bit of wildness ourselves is also a good thing. Saying “don’t mess with me” just works better when we look like we’re prepared to do our own enforcing.
Hi FightAnotherDay, nice to meet you. You’re ex apparently was very good at making everything about him, which is the typical attitude of N/S/P types. You don’t have to be “strong and cold” to get better at making your life about you, though it might feel that way at first, because you’re not used to it.
You can train yourself by practicing saying “this doesn’t work for me.” It’s a wonderful all-around response to anything that, well, doesn’t work for you. Notice how you feel when you say it. Initially it just might seem unbelievably nervy and aggressive — like the sky is going to fall and everyone is going to think you’re an selfish bitch. (And the people who don’t want you to have needs or opinions of your own will tell you are. This is actually a test of who you’re dealing with, as well as an exercise is boundary setting.) But once you get over the jitters, notice how it make you feel like your life belongs to you; it’s about your choices and about what you think is good for you or isn’t.
Then when you get relaxed about that, you start working on statements that begin with “I want.” Like I want you to be faithful or show up when you say your’re going to or pay your own way financially or treat me with respect. Just true things that you want. You’ll get pushback on this too from people who don’t want to know what you want (because then they have to actually deal with it, or show you they really don’t care, instead of gaslighting you). They’d also rather keep you focussed on their moods and demands, rather than have you thinking about yourself. You bad, selfish girl. Who’d want a woman who knows how to say I want? Maybe a guy who recognizes that the only person worth loving a woman who respects herself, and is prepared to speak up without a speck of embarrrassment, so that you two can figure out ways to make you both happy.
So, no, not “strong and cold,” just willing to stand your ground for what you want, and toss back the ones who don’t measure up to what you need. Because you’re worth it. (And if you don’t believe that, no one else will.)
Hugs to you, Polly. And good for you. I sounds like you’re getting the technique, but maybe not the rationale behind it. We talked about trust being conditional; we give it when they earn it. But compassion is built in to feeling people; we can’t really turn it off. What we can turn off is feeling in any way responsible for how they feel about what we think, feel, say, way or are.
As long as they have us hooked into believing in some future gratification with them, we are vulnerable to the carrot and the stick. But when we start judging what’s going on in now-time, and demanding of them (and ourselves) that this become reasonable, respectful and enjoyable, at that point we get over this business of “trying being loving and kind.” We are naturally loving and kind when we value what we’re getting back. If we don’t like the way they’re acting, we are fully entitled to suspend being loving and kind, and to stop caring how they feel, since that’s exactly what we’re getting from them.
That may seem scary, especially if you imagine the same philosophy being turned around on you. It may seem to equate to being loved, only if you do what someone else wants. But this is not really about love, or not about that thing we’ve been calling love that is a sort of hormonal obsessive attachment. Real love is based on understanding and trust. And it takes time and experience with each other to evolve. If you’re not prepared to say “I don’t like this” and “I want that,” how is knowledge of each other ever going to grow? And yes, you’ll have arguments, but the right arguments, about things that are really important to each of you, so that you can work things out (or discover that you can’t). But if you act loving when you don’t like what you’re getting, what are you showing someone else other than that you’re a liar and a doormat?
The thing about relationships played out in present tense is that it makes them pretty fluid. If someone is just having a bad day and is unpleasant to be around, you can logically make the choice to walk away and find something better to do. If he’s more pleasant or interesting tomorrow, you can spend time with him if you want. Eventually you’ll start to intuit patterns, and then maybe make larger decisions whether you want to deal with him at all or you’re going to stop worrying about his moodiness because you’re getting so much more from him. But it’s all done in real time. Not dreams or promises.
This is all good reason not to sleep with someone too fast. And to seriously suspect anyone who is trying to rush things. At minimum, suspect that person of being more interest in his own satisfaction that what it does to you or to the relationship. But it can be a lot more serious than that, because predators are fully aware that once the hormones are engaged, self-protective instincts are weakened.
But to get back to what you wrote, you said you hated being cold, it went against everything you believed in. This is not cold. This is fighting for yourself and for the relationship, and refusing to be guilt-tripped, sidetracked or otherwise bamboozled. If you two BOTH are not interested in adult negotiations based on caring about BOTH your needs, then this is not a relationship. It’s usage. Pointing that out is not cold. It’s honest. And if you have to worry about his ability to deal with your honesty, you’re feeling pressure to treat him like an emoitional child. And you have every right to feel disgusted, but not with yourself.
You’re doing well. Don’t sweat how safe the world is. It much more important to stay in touch with what you want and how you feel about what you’re getting back from people. If you can learn to keep your own desires in mind, and deal appropriately with what does and doesn’t match what you want, it will take care of 99.9 percent of the problems you might face. Sociopaths look for low-hanging fruit and you won’t be that anymore. And even better, you won’t be interested in giving endless chances to people who behave badly because your standards are higher and you’ve got more interesting things to do.
And finally, and here’s the good news, when you get all these skills and perspectives down, you’re going to be attracting a better class of people. There is a whole world out there of nice people who are also very responsible about themselves. They want good lives and good relationships and they’re willing to work on them, but they just fade away if they sense lies and disrespect. There are lot of them out there, and it’s not so easy for them to find people like themselves, because most of us don’t have our heads on that straight. But that’s going to be your new natural society. So look forward to it, and keep building healthy skills and attitudes for self-protection and empowerment. The future is going to be good, even better than you imagine.
Kathleen,
Something you just said gave me a real “AHA!!” moment!
Do you remember, you said,{or in so many words}
“When a Lion is bearing down on you,you are not going to think,
“Oh the poor Lion is starving hungry!” especially when you realise that it wants to eat YOU!”
This really resonated to me re my spath daughter.{now 46 yrs old}
I used to feel sorry for her, despite all her woes being of he r own making, and for YEARS and YEARS I let her suck me dry emotionally and financially to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars.
I now see that she did not{and still does not} see me as a person at all, with rights, and feelings, only as a source of supply!
She has no more interest in me than that hungry lion, all I was to her was a food source!
So I cannot afford to feel sorry for her any more ,knowing that I am only a source of supply to her, nothing more, and that shed discard me quicker than a used Kleenex if a better sucker came a long!
So, THANK YOU!! they say a picture says a thousand words, and that mental picture of the hungry Lion was my “AHA!!” moment!!
Love,
Mama gem.
Awesome Kathleeen – just awesome. I struggle to ‘get’ some of your concepts – definitely not you, but rather my coming to grips with a new way of being. I was a doormat and a liar. I was a liar to myself and to others in the people pleaser I presented in return for the crumbs of love left as an afterthought.
I like that phrase “This doesn’t work for me.” I really like that. It’s not hurtful to the other person necessarily and it’s really honest. It’s like an invitation to negotiate as adults to find solutions that do work.
I fully take the point about not moving too fast sexually. It’s hard, but how can you be balanced if you’re entangled to such an extent with one person? How can you make judgements about your future involvement with that person if you’re locked into a stereotyped exclusive monogamous relationship? I thank you for the reminder though … I needed to be reminded of that. Quite apart from the emotional plunge it causes in a woman, there is a biochemical aspect that will make me take my blinkers off and not see reality. I need to be very careful.
When in a dating and sexual relationship with someone you can get behaviours like perhaps a whiff of jealousy if you spend time with male friends … I am so not up for being manipulated in that way. I don’t want jealousy or judgement. Men can get that way even if on the surface they’re accepting and tolerant of other people and activities in your life.
I;ve been feeling lately that my own life I built of blogging here and making music and writing and having projects creatively on the go has been suffering since I met him so I stood up for them. I don;t want the life of thinking and experiencing and growing that I have built to wither and die. Because then what’s the point of life?
I like the life I have built in the absence of the psychopath and I have plans for it. You’re so right that when you’re looking out for yourself and have yourself together, you meet others on the same journey. I have some pretty amazing people in my life and I’m loving spending time with them. I was so isolated and dulled when with the psychopath … life had a terrible sameness in experience. Every day was pretty much the same – tiptoeing around his moods and his needs and having my own ignored even when I spoke vehemently about them. You are right about second chances and endless chances and a life built in the future on the never never. Life is in the now – it is not lived in the future – it is lived in the now. The only possible time is the present.
Life is pretty good now. And it is looking better all the time. To have rejoined the human race in the sun away from the shadow of the psychopath is a beautiful thing. I see lovely experiences in the future and thankyou for seeing them for me. From way back when I was so blue. You always did see that good life when I couldn’t.
Can you share your thoughts about what you think is the best way to approach love with someone else after a relationship with a psychopath? What would you see as a safe timeframe? And I know it’s not about specific time periods, but rather the kind of person you have chosen to pursue relationship with, but … some thoughts would be appreciated. This is a walk into the unknown … as it always is. And I want to continue protecting myself and my own interests despite the entrenched cultural notion that women should be self sacrificing to their men as a show of feminine devotion. I have a right to my life … to the lived experience of day to day life. I don’t ever want to be in that tiny space that I lived before again. I want to live expansively and lovingly and have an amazing life.
Anyways thankyou for the previous advice. It is appreciated and I take on board everything. I know you’re busy, but if you could share a few thoughts it would be much appreciated. The present is pretty splendid and the imagined future is huge!
kim frederick, I think you’re on target in saying that we all must continue working on “getting it” — because there are various layers of denial, confusion, discovery and awareness in the process of coming to terms with it all.
jmb: I agree with you that a clinician may not need to experience sociopathy firsthand in order to help people.
But your other point, “If a clinician had been involved personally, I don’t see how they could retain any kind of objectivity…” doesn’t necessarily apply.
Professionals can practice concerned detachment and being cognizant of the potential for “transference” — clinical terms relevant to respecting self/other boundaries. I think clinicians who’ve had personal encounters with narcissists or sociopaths have a vantage point of both objectivity and subjectivity. But they will have needed to do their own personal healing for the most part, to maintain balance while counseling others.
As you say, the therapist and anyone in other professions who is aware of the nuances of aggression and manipulation inherent in pathological relationships can at least help validate what victims experienced — to know they are not crazy.
Part of that help also involves holding both victims and perpetrators accountable (from different approaches, however) during the counseling process, because even victims have to own what role they play to some extent in maintaining harmful interactions with toxic people.
New research on sociopathy and information shared by people with personal experience help us to integrate various sources for a bigger-picture understanding of these issues. And boy oh boy, it’s ongoing learning — both a humbling and empowering journey.
Hi Pollyanna, thanks your letter. It made me feel really good about you (and about me).
Rather than approaching love, I think it’s better to approach life. Develop yourself. Seek partners in experience — whether it’s adventure or just building something that you need a hand with. Be open to people who want to get involved with you on a limited basis (not sexually, but maybe in work or service activities), and keep your own intentions and boundaries in mind. Take yourself and your own life seriously, and enjoy the expansion and learning that comes with it.
If you find feelings developing for someone, try to keep from “futuring.” Just be authentic, make expression of your feelings part of what you share, and see what comes back to you. (If I had done that in my early dealing with my sociopathic ex, it would have given me the information to back away from that relationship early, because what I got back from him was very odd and left me feeling alone with my feelings.)
Being a grown-up involves learning to live with disappointment without takeing it too personally. Undertanding that other people have their own ways of learning and developing awareness and feelings. You don’t have to control everything. Just enjoy what’s going on, and if you don’t enjoy it, back away from it. And if you enjoy it continually and the other person does too, you both will figure out what you want to do about that. But if it’s lopsided, or the other person seems to be insensitive or unable to step up to a good relationship, you’ll figure out what to do about that too.
I hope this makes sense. I know it’s very abstract, and it doesn’t account for the huge force of sexual attraction and the biological clock issue. But if you have these attitudes toward life and respect for your own needs pretty well established, you can handle things in a way that keeps you solid with yourself and doing the right thing in terms of relationships, new and established.
Kathy