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By | May 31, 2010 44 Comments

Even experts on bullying are clueless about sociopaths

The headline of a New York Times article sent to me by a Lovefraud reader last week was, Maybe bullies just want to be loved.

Yeah, right, I thought.

The article related the findings of two recent studies, one of them about schoolyard bullies. Dutch researchers from the University of Groningen investigated 481 elementary school children. Their findings, according to the Times:

Bullies tended to divide their classmates into potential sources of affection and targets for domination. The latter were children who had already been rejected by kids the bullies cared about: They didn’t count. Interestingly, bullies cared only about the approval of classmates of the same sex. Boys pick on kids whom their male peers disdain, but couldn’t care less what the girls think. Similarly, mean girls disregard their male classmates’ opinions. “Bullies are very strategic in their behavior,” explains the lead author, René Veenstra. “They’re looking for attention and affection from their own peer group.” In other words, bullies want friends.

The idea that bullies wanted affection and friends struck me as a bit odd, so I looked for more information on the study. It was published in the March/April 2010 issue of the journal Child Development. The full title is, The complex relation between bullying, victimization, acceptance, and rejection: Giving special attention to status, affection and sex differences.

Reading the beginning of the study, I came to realize the depth to which even the scientific community does not understand sociopaths. But before I explain this observation, let me provide a bit more background.

Multiple studies

This particular study is one of several published by the same group of Dutch researchers, apparently led by René Veenstra. They are involved in a long-term study of Dutch children called TRAILS (Tracking Adolescents’ Individual Lives Survey), designed to chart and explain the development of mental health and social development from preadolescence into adulthood. It began in 2000 and will continue through 2016.

Veenstra and colleagues published another study in 2005 called Bullying and victimization in elementary schools: A comparison of bullies, victims, bully/victims and uninvolved preadolescents. In the introduction, the study recounted the “Knowledge base on bullying:”

Research suggests that children and adolescents identified as bullies demonstrate poorer psychosocial functioning than their classmates. Bullies have been reported to be aggressive, impulsive, hostile, domineering, antisocial, and uncooperative toward peers and to exhibit little anxiety or insecurity. When they are in control, bullies feel more secure and less anxious. Surprisingly, according to self-reports, bullies make friends easily and obtain classmate support similar to that of uninvolved youth. Bullies believe they will achieve success through their aggression, are unaffected by inflicting pain and suffering, and process information about victims in a rigid and automatic fashion. Bullies believe that they pick on their victim because they are provoked or because they do not like the victim. They show poorer school adjustment, both in terms of achievement and well-being, and perceive less social support from teachers. These children may be more difficult in the classroom and frustrating for teachers. Evidence suggests that bullies come from homes in which parents prefer physical discipline, are sometimes hostile and rejecting, have poor problem-solving skills, and are permissive toward aggressive childhood behavior or even teach their children to strike back at the least provocation. (Citations omitted.)

In other words, schoolyard bullies are budding sociopaths, and often the children of full-fledged sociopaths. Other findings in the 2005 paper include:

  • A boy was more likely to be a bully than was a girl.
  • Parenting characteristics had no impact on bullying and victimization.
  • A main characteristic of bullies was aggressiveness.
  • Although bullies were disliked, they were not marginalized.

All of these findings are consistent with what we at Lovefraud know about sociopaths: They are more likely to be male than female. They do not necessarily come from a disadvantaged background. They make friends easily, even though they can be, when they feel like it, hostile, aggressive and impulsive. They feel entitled to abuse someone, claiming they are provoked.

Veenstra, therefore, is studying people who are high in sociopathic traits.

Seeking affection?

So let’s go back to the most recent study of schoolyard bullying by Veenstra et. al. In the beginning of it, he lays out a “theoretical elaboration” of the background for his study:

When studying interactions among children, what goals should be considered? Status and affection goals have frequently been identified as important for all human beings. Although we do not measure these goals directly, we have good evidence for their importance. Pendell (2002) has reviewed much literature that shows affection to be a universal need. The evolutionary and developmental importance of affection has also been shown. Status has also been established as a universal goal, and the importance of this goal for bullying has recently been directly assessed. Both goals are prominent in childhood and preadolescence as well. Thus, it seems to be a safe assumption that bullies, like other human beings, want to realize status and affection. (Citations omitted.)

This assumption is wrong. Bullies are, most likely, high in sociopathic traits. Sociopaths do not feel empathy for other human beings. They are not capable of love. They don’t want affection; they want narcissistic supply.

This study, however, concluded that bullies chose their victims in order to minimize the loss of affection from other members of their peer group. How did the researchers come to this conclusion? The children filled out self-report surveys in their school class. They were asked to name whom among their classmates were their friends, and whom they disliked. They were asked, “Who do you bully?” and “By whom are you bullied?” Based on the answers from all the participating children in the class, the researchers figured out which children were popular, which were bullies and which were victims, and who was friends with whom.

From this, the researchers determined that the bullies generally picked on the unpopular kids in the class. They wrote:

We predicted that bullies focus strategically on those potential same-gender victims who were rejected by and had low acceptance from same-gender classmates. For potential other-gender victims we hypothesized that children would focus on those who were rejected by the bullies’ same gender classmates. We found that victims of male bullies were indeed rejected by boys only and that male bullies were never low on acceptance. Thus, as expected, boys seem to choose their victims so as to minimize loss of affection.

I don’t know how these researchers made the leap from bullies picking low-status targets to bullies not wanting to lose the affection of their friends. I couldn’t find anyplace in the paper that described the researchers actually asking the bullies how they chose victims. If they had asked, I’m sure the answer would have been this: Unpopular kids were easy targets.

Clueless experts

These researchers are studying bullies. Bullying is a good indication of sociopathy. But the researchers are absolutely clueless about the nature of sociopaths.

Sociopaths do not want affection. They want power, control and sex. I hope these child bullies weren’t demanding sex from their victims, but they were certainly in pursuit of power and control.

If the experts on bullying don’t get it, no wonder the regular people of the world are confused about sociopaths.


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BloggerT7165

Donna,

One problem here is that it appears that there is an assumption being made that psychopathy manifests the same for a youth as it does for an adult. Yet some of the features of psychopathy for adults can be viewed as a norm or grown out of by youth (i.e. lack of long term goals, impulsivity, parasitic lifestyle, etc). And these are elementary school kids in the study so they are not even adolescents yet. There are huge changes that occur in children as they become adults.

In one study, 71% of the adolescents who obtained extremely high scores on a measure of psychopathy at age 13 were not later classified as psychopaths at age 24. Adolescents scores on the PCL have been shown to decrease over time significantly more than those of adults.

So it is hard enough to try and pick out the 1% of adults but with kids you have to try and pick out the 29% of the 1%. Talk about a low base rate nightmare.

I would also add that this is not “experts” as in all experts but rather just those doing a study to test a hypothesis that looks at bullying. There are usually exceptions to the rule when looking at groups and how the data on groups plays out does not always carry over to how an individual will, making it even harder to assess.

There is a new(ish) book out that you might want to read. You can view a piece of it here (talks about psychopathy) http://tinyurl.com/33k5mw3 you may have to click previous and then next. The text starts on pg 179 and I think it is well done. If you scroll through it you will come to the “Myths” section and more that is very good!!

Buttons

Donna, thank you for another outstanding article!

The “bullies” that I have known in my lifetime have bullied people because they could, and not because of any need for attention, affection, etc.

What I found to be most typical was that bullies worked in groups, and not alone. The alpha of the group would hone in on a person who didn’t fall into their category of acceptance and they would goad the rest of the group on to torment these targets.

The term/definition, “sociopath,” is NEVER used to describe these groups of people, especially by media who cover news reports about bullying that results in some sort of violent response.

Very sad, very sick, and very much growing at an exponential rate. Thanks, again, for this enlightening article!

Ox Drover

Dear Blogger and Donna,

I’m like Donna I have seen some kids who were “bullies” at age 10-12 (mostly in inpatient settings) that had I thought full blown “psychopathic traits” that there was little likelyhood they would grow out of, and I’ve seen neighborhood kids who were pretty aggressive that grew up to be pretty OK young adults.

I was the victim of severe bullying by a girl in 2nd grade (my jaw was broken) and have no way to know if she grew up to be a P or not, but she was darned sure aggressive & she didn’t seem to want any affection from me at least. I was one of the younger (by more than a year) of my classmates and also a smaller child and not having any siblings I had no idea of how to “fight back.” I was a perfect victim and didn’t even tell on her until she went a bit far and broke my jaw and it got noticed.

My son who did grow up to be a P was not a bully when he was little, but I think when he reached adolescence he became very aggressive at least with CHOSEN victims rather than generally aggressive. My half brother who I think IS a psychopathic adult was a very aggressive child even in second and third grade and would usually come home with his clothes torn off from fighting in school on a daily basis. Neither of my other two half sibs that grew up to not be Ps were aggressive or bullies.

Liane has written several articles about how the dominance drive is highly represented in psychopathic individuals and there is not a reason I can think of to suspect that it wouldn’t be demonstated in children as in bullying or “picking on the weaker” individuals in a group. Since at that age kids tend to interact more with their own gender it would stand to reason that boys would bully boys and girls girls I would think.

Bully to “seek affection”? Nah, but bully to seek ATTENTION? yea. To feel dominance? Yea. Bully to seek approval from others who would like to bully but don’t have the self assurance to actually do it? Yea.

While most every kid who was somewhat of a bully as a child may grow out of it, or be taught out of it, I would think some of those that ARE bullies are early blooming Ps.

Rosa

Maybe these experts are operating on a faulty premise to begin with.

They are basing their conclusions on the assumption that status and affection are “universal” needs, so bullies must need these things, too.

They are applying this theory to kids who fall OUTSIDE of this “universal” premise….which would be the sociopathic kids.

Whether they realize it or not, it seems like they are trying to include these bullies who possess sociopathic traits in with the empath kids who have the ability to love and a conscience.
That way, they can say that we are all one big human species, and they don’t have to admit that some people in the world are lacking the most basic elements of what makes someone human….a conscience, moral reasoning ability, empathy, and ability to love.

I don’t think these experts can wrap their heads around the fact that there are sociopaths in the world who have no conscience or ability to love.

They would rather come to the conclusion that bullies need affection, too.

It’s like me saying that I love chocolate, so the whole world must love chocolate.
It’s not true. Chocolate makes some people break out in hives.
Most people love chocolate….just like most people want love and affection.
But, it’s not UNIVERSAL. And it’s not always the case.

lostingrief

i don’t think that bullies are looking for friends. i was a bully when i was younger … 12 or 13. but my reason for bullying other girls was that i was being bullied at home; by my father, and two older brothers. i had no way out of being constantly teased, pushed, hit, called names that denigrated both my appearance and my spirit. i was the youngest and most vulnerable in my family. i was also a strong, athletic young girl. i feel as though i just passed it down. i picked on weak girls; threatened to beat them up. my abuse of others at that age was verbal. but when older, stronger girls bullied me, i fought them in physical fights. eventually, i began to identify with the ‘weak’ girls and fought on their behalf. before graduating high school, i apologized to everyone i ever victimized.
this remembrance is very difficult right now. the thought that i hurt others as i was being hurt is terrible, but somehow i grew to be a protector.
the ex-spath was a bully all his life (and still is at 40). there was always a malice about it, but i interpreted it as strength and security.
as a teacher, i see many students who are bullies. the vast majority have terrible home lives, and are themselves, bullied. what a tragic cycle.
it seems that sociopathic bullies would have no remorse. after my anger would subside, i would cry that i hurt someone else’s feelings. bullying is complex, and i believe, often stems from the bully being on the receiving end first. JMHO.

Nicolaid

It reminds me of this article published in Wired about Newman’s work: “Psychos Need a Little Sympathy”

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2006/09/71819

witsend

The problem with the studies is that the experts want a clear and concise end result of these studies. A black and white, concrete, boxed up and tied neatly in a bow, answer.

It’s not that simple. It’s to complex and there isn’t just ONE reason why a bully is a bully.

It is no different than the age old argument nurture or nature question of sociopathic originations. There is no ONE reason nature or nurture for this either.

Lostingrief made a very good point. Of the cycle that she “learned” at home by being on the recieving end. And how in the end she grew up to be a protecter.

Human nature, illnesses and disorders of the brain are so complex and everything can’t be compared to a mathematical problem that has ONE RIGHT answer.

Rosa made a good point that possibly the experts are operating on a faulty premise to begin with.

A family of 5 siblings can grow up in the same alcoholic “abusive” household. Each of thise 5 siblings can grow up and have their own perspective of what they experienced as a child. These perspectives can vary. Each, as adults will take on that childhood experience differently. Some of the siblings might continue the cycle, some will not.
This prooves that nurture can produce different results.

hens

Oh my this subject is very painful for me. The bullying was relentless from older brother, boys at school and from some teachers. I would play hookie or play sick to stay away from school. I guess I was different and weird, quite and reserved…at my age now I still have bad dreams about being taunted, called a sissy..add to that being raised as a Jehovas witness and your mother tells you not to salute the flag or join in pagan holiday stuff at school..this makes me so sad…when my boys were little I took them to karate classes and told them to defend themselves from bullies, and they were never bullied and they are not bullies, I guess I taught them self respect even when I didnt have any…I am still a big misfit in this world, I just make the most of every day..memorial day BAH HUM BUG…

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

Well, my dear, if you are a misfit I wish there were more like you!!!! (((Hugs)))) It is astounding to me that someone with the BULLYING you had as a child came out with a heart and soul, whereas your BULLY brother is still a psychopath without a conscience or a soul! With a P for a father, a P for a brother and an a pathological Narcissist for a mother, I don’t know how you did it, but it proves SOMETHING that you are NOT like them. That you have a conscience and you did raise your kids to not be bullies or be victims of them either.

Dear Learning, I think the examples we have had of others bullying or verbally abusing us have made us do or say things to strike back at what we didn’t (then) understand as our internalized anger and sense of injustice, but in the end, once we understand, also makes us realize that being abused can cause the victims to strike out as abusers themselves. But, understanding that can also ULTIMATELY give us empathy for both the abuser and the abused.

It is the abuser who has no conscience, who never has a conscience, that is unable to have empathy, who is unable to do anything except continue to abuse/bully and seek dominance.

I’ve seen it in various animals (primarily dogs) where an abused dog will become violent, and another one will become a belly crawling peeing on itself subservient animal—I think again, it is the “clay and the wax” lying together in the sunshine, the RESULTS of the same situation and conditions will have different results depending on the make up of the thing to start with. The sun melts the WAX, but it hardens the CLAY.

Sometimes a dog that has become viscious because it was abused can be gentled, and sometimes it can’t. My little dog that is of a breed that is usually aggressive has apparently been abused enough in a previous home that he cowers, and I had a border collie that cowered if anyone talked loudly around her because a previous owner a loud male had abused her.

Her son, a wonderful dog, has no problem with loud voices because he has never been abused by someone with a loud voice.

Plus, different people will react differently in different situations of abuse. There are some things that will or did make me come out fighting like a badger and other times I “cowered down and belly crawled.”

I think about some of the studies that were done a couple of generations ago that were based on the fact that “bad parenting” caused every “bad” out come in children as it was ASSUMED that all babies were BLANK SLATES on which parenting wrote 100% of the programming. We now know that many things HAVE genetic components as well as environmental components, so it is only when we get the basic assumptions (as Rosa pointed out) that there are MULTIPLE components to humans and not all of the “same behaivor” is motivated by the same motivations.

ErinBrock

Witty:
HOW ARE YOU…….

I hope your doing well….and that’s why I haven’t seen ya girl!!!

Hey….I have an 18 year old! I thought of you on jr’s b-day!
It comes fast.

behind_blue_eyes

I continue to maintain that physical abuse and psychopathy do not go hand-in-hand; however, I do agree that most psychopaths do exhibit some such tendencies.

The Wired article mentioned above references Newman’s experience with one “psychopath” described as “a whiny, puny 130-pound male who had probably never physically hurt anyone…” Mine was 10 pounds more who also probably never physically hurt anyone.

As such, I tend to use the label “sociopath” for those who do not exhibit physical abuse and “psychopath” for those who do. In addition, I focus more on lack of empathy and lack of guilt as defining traits, not the driving need for power, sex or control.

Regarding the need for affection, I do agree that some sociopaths-psychopaths do have this need and do seek affection. However, on the “continuum,” those exhibiting the most extreme psychopathic traits probably do not seek affection.

Certainly, in my recent experiences with a probable sociopath, his desire for love and affection was clear, at least from various dating website profile questions and tests. He also at least mirrored my desire for a real and lasting long-term relationship. Whether or not he could actually be loving and affectionate is another discussion.

Equally important, if I limit my criteria to desire for power, sex or control and bullying or some other physical abuse, than Jamie is not a sociopath or psychopath. Yet, what he did to me was callous and without much empathy or guilt. Certainly, at the very least he is “toxic.” Since he also exhibits many of the secondary traits of a sociopath, plus a background consistent with that of a sociopath, its hard for me to think he is not such, right down to his chilling eyes.

GettingIt

Not every bully is a psychopath.
To me, the most important traits are manipulation and impulsive pathological lying for personal gain. A lot of bullies may grow up to exhibit Antisocial Personality disorder, while others will gain self control and impulse control. They may or may not be psychopathic.

GettingIt

On the other hand, my child started lying and manipulating. It is still very easy to spot, but when caught, he gives this look of innocence that pulls at the heart strings. I don’t think he’ll ever bully – he simply does not need to: he always gets his way so far

hens

Dear Oxy Thank you for the kind words. When I was seeing a therapist a few years ago she said the same thing, that she was surprised that I wasnt like them. And I asked the therapist if she was just saying that to be nice..She laughed and said I was nothing like them..
I have to share something with you and those that know my never ending story with my Xspath. When I let the evil one move in with me I was doing just fine finacially, I had a nice pick-up almost paid for. He didnt have a vehicle so for six months I was his chauffer back and forth to work etc etc. Well like a fool I offered to co-sign for him a vehicle..but ended up buying it in my name only. Well I asked for his drivers license for ins. Well duh he didnt have one it was suspended ten years earlier. Oh but he loved me so much and wanted to spend the rest of his life with me..so 2 grand and a few weeks later we get his license. Then we get his teeth fixed 3 grand for that..but he blows all his money at the casinos and etc etc…So suddenly paradise blows up like tornado and I am strapped to make ends meet…BUT~! he loves me so much he cuts his wrist to prove it, cause I had asked him to leave with out the car… well Trying to shorten this story up I sell my nice truck buy something cheap and bail his ass out, because I loved him, but things sure didnt seem right..well in the end i sign his vehicle over too him and kick him out and he moves in with option number 2 or 3 ‘who knows…So here i am in this crappy little truck trying to get my life back in order,,,driving this crappy little truck is a constant reminder of my relationship from hell, a constant “your so stupid’ in my mind…Then one year later he shows up knockin on my door driving a brand fricken new truck just like the one I used to have…!!!! But I didnt answer door, but I saw what he came here for ‘ the black toyota tundra… Well today I bought me a white toyota tundra ‘not new’ and it’s nice..call me what ever but this is a high point for me today.\, a victory, statring over, regaining who I am, what i was and what i had before that imposter walked in my door five years ago and took me on that rollercoaster from hell of a ride…thanks for letting me rant..

ErinBrock

HENS:
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
You sure deserve to be right again!! I think thats fabulous!!!!
You have no more bad reminders……you have a pretty little truck to remind you how far you’ve come.
It all has meaning darlen!

And NO……you are nothing like your family-Give yourself credit……

KUDOS to you baby!!!!

hens

Thank you ErinB..plus this means he has no idea what I drive, not that he would care or that I even want him to know about it..

ErinBrock

incognito all the way baby!!!!!

Rosa

Henry:

Bless you for teaching your boys about respect & self-respect.
You have a great spirit in you.
Happy (early) Father’s Day to you, Henry.

Congratulations on the new Toyota Tundra!!! Nice.
Nothing says “I’ve moved on” like a new vehicle.
And nothing says “Go Away” like a few paint balls exploding all over the enemy’s vehicle….or a taser to the ass (I love tasers 🙂 ).

gypsydi

Hi again…..I am realizing I need to get this whole story out to SOMEONE and be BELIEVED…..I feel weak somehow because I need someone to validate me……I did not make this up…..I have watched it happen.

One year ago…I came back here after leaving him because of his crack cocaine addiction…I left for 9 months…I was totally clean (never did drugs) and alcohol-free….when he begged me to come back and “help” him get off drugs and have a “spiritual” life with him. Within the past year…I have watched myself get all bills caught up….he did not pay while I was gone…..and realized this man I loved and cared about so dearly was a total con……he saw what I wanted and played it.

Now I am drinking…doing some crack….hate it…miss feeling so alive and connected to life itself…..I told him I now know he is a classic sociopath….and he does not deny it…

gypsydi

The most difficult part is I know he wants me to just leave, so he can just continue his charade….but the dangerous part is I DO NOT want him to win……I want to take him down……this feels sicko to me…..and I can’t seem to shake it….

I feel like I will feel tormented forever if I walk with nothing….this kind of thinking has come from him somehow….I have had to become like him to survive…..I actually know I have let him blend his MIND with mine somehow……..YIKES….NO MORE…I want myself back…..is it too late?????

ErinBrock

Gypsi:
I’m gonna ask you a hard question……
WHAT DO YOU HAVE NOW?
You aren’t getting any money from business….he’s holding anything over your head,
HE IS BURYING YOU…..
You MUST save some money, somehow, someway! Just enough to get out.
Do you have ANYONE in the states who can help you?
It’s time to ask for help. FIND IT AND GET IT!!!
I know belize is an insestuous area….and everyone knows everyone else…..can you get to Guatamala?
Can you sell some craft or mangoes on the side of road?
There is only one DV shelter in Cayo….SI area….
LEAVE, RUN, GET OUT!
He will take you down with him……
If you have a car……take a drive and get back into the states….HOME!
Get yourself deported if you can’t find the $$ for a plane tix back to states…..Now it’s a cheap time. Call the airlines and tell them your abused and cry for help….people donate airline miles for such purpose.
Call the Red Cross see if they can ‘evacuate’ you from BC to Florida.
Once back in the states, there is DV help.

Your on a sinking ship…..ask yourself…..how much would you gain selling this business…..and is it really saleable? How much is the property worth…..is anythign selling down there?
IS IT REALLY WORTH THE TIME AND HEALTH YOUR GONNA WASTE WAITING TO SELL…..and that’s IF you can get any money out of him THEN?
I say…..get out!!!!!! Cut your losses….it’ll cost you more in the long run.

ErinBrock

STAY INCOGNITO FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!!

ErinBrock

GYPSI:
Women’s Issues Network of Belize
P.O Box 2471, 28 Dean Street
Belize City, Belize
Email: [email protected]nbelize.bz
Phone: 501-227-1069
Fax: 501-227-1068
http://www.winbelize.bz
———————————–
Good News From Haven House
We are please to inform the
membership that Haven House
Shelter for Battered Women is
steadily developing. To date
one of the transition houses
has a resident and she is doing
well. In addition, the second
house is being expanded to a
three bedroom house and a
fence is being erected around
the property which was funded
by Social Security and the
ride across Belize. Those
funds were also used to
completely furnish both
transition houses, buy
appliances and furniture.
Haven House is also
networking with rotary for the
construction of a child care/
training center. We encourage
all women to speak out about
domestic violence and for
those with the information to
pass on the message that there
is a safe place for women in
situation of domestic violence.
He l p l i n e : 2 2 2 – 4 3 4 3
227-7397

gypsydi

Dear Erin Brock…
I hear you loud and clear….I am on the edge…the shelter is on the next street….along with all the crack dealers….
I am seeing so clearly I am petrified….Still some insane idea that he will “see the light”……you are right……I must get out… I am afraid to feel safe once again…..like I will cry and cry and never stop…..and realize this most unnatural state I have been existing in for far too long…I thought I had healed all this abusive dad stuff…..this bond with this SP is unexplainable, yet deadly.

I will swallow my pride and ask for help (NOT for the first time) I am embarrassed….he actually threw our computer and phone system in to the sea…(so I could not have contact)..You are a lifeline….no one can understand this insanity…..I will keep you posted on my whereabouts….he is trying to reel me in again by rehabilitating himself off drugs and alcohol again!!!!!! Never happen…..

I must rehabilitate myself from him NOW…..it is only going to get worse……I can see that….no more fantasy……that info helpline is a start…….I have had enough mind-fucking for eternity…..these folks are real and they exist…..and they DO NOT WANT HELP……I will take some help and recover…..I did remove that post.

hens

Gypsydi – The only way you will win is to leave him and go no contact..He has your power and he is controlling you. It has taken me two years to climb out of financial ruin. Erin has offered great support and advice. No contact is your only weapon and ultimate salvation.. You can do it..~!

hens

Dear Rosa Thank you for the early father’s day wish.. I love taser’s, specially on those Cop show’s when those Billy bad asses wont cooperate with the cops, that taser makes em wiggle into submission..

Buttons

{{{Gypsydi}}} My positive thoughts and energies are with you during this most frightening time – you will do it to save your very soul.

Make your move YESTERDAY and leave with whatever you can carry. NOTHING is worth the price of your own soul, my dear. “Things” can be replaced. Souls, on the other hand, cannot.

Brightest blessings to you, Gypsydi.

Buttons

Oh……….as for “The Win?” The way to win is to live a happy and productive life. THAT’S the only win possible.

ErinBrock

Gypsi:
Maybe it’s not that you want to win….it’s your definition of winning.
Is winning to you…..taking him ‘down’…..
Girl….that’s happening all by himself anyways….
You will WIN by escaping…..
Nobody does a ‘little crack’…….it’s like being a ‘little’ pregnant.
I know Belize and I know Belize City. Your in a very unhealthy environment…..and I don’t have to tell you.
There is nothing positive about your particular situation in Belize.
I’m also guessing you don’t have equity in the actual property….and from the reviews and visual of the property…..your business has taken a HUGE nosedive with these behaviors . In the service/hospitality business….this property is sunk!!! these reviews will be on the internet for YEARS.
The only guests your going to attract is his like kind.
MUCH EASIER TO START FRESH….YOURSELF……
You are not an expat who is living her dream…..you are not running a resort in a nice area doing jungle/reef tours from your balcony.
Your setup is transient for tourists, with the ‘benefit’ of him being local and ‘in’ with the crackheads in BC.
You are not connected and your environment is NOT EVER going to be conducive to being connected. It’s transient at best.
Do I have to remind you of the HIV situation in Belize? With Crack behaviors…….abuse, drugs, sexual abuse…..
=DEATH!

You left once…..make the FINAL decision of what YOU want out of life…..and go find it!!!!!
It’s up to you and you CAN do whatever you desire…..you just have to commit and move in that direction.

It’s time to be 1000% honest with yourself and take action!!!

Do NOT worry about him……he’ll be dead soon enough with his own behaviors…….
Don’t dig a grave for 2!!!

Good luck….your in my thoughts….I have faith in you!!!!

XXOO
EB

sherry winter

If the experts are as cluless as this, what hope do those of us who have been burned by sociopaths have? We are labled by coworkers as CRAZY, when we warn them about the “charming” leadworker with alterior motives. We are told we are spiteful when we warn current “victims” that the love of their life has 4 other women going behind their backs.

If even the experts can look a sociopath in the face, see every single symptom, and still assume they just want love, what hope do we have to open the eyes of the world to the “danger with a smile,” among us?

I have given up on any hope of being heard, and BELIEVED, in my workplace. I have lost friend after friend, for being SPITEFUL and UNFORGIVING, because I finally see my EX for the dangerous sociopath he is. If I could change things even a little better for those who have been victimized and who WILL be victimized I would dedicate my life to it… just as I had TRIED to dedicate my life to the man who stabbed me in the back… but there is nothing for me to do, but to wish things were different.

At 53 yrs old, I am not going to get a doctorite in phycology, and start a following that will FINALLY educate the world to the TRUTH about the 4% that uses the 96% as their puppets. I wish I could, but the dreamer in me has already died along with my inocence.

Ox Drover

Dear Sherry,

Trying to educate others who are not willing to listen is like throwing pearls before swine.” That is just the truth of the matter and no matter how we like it, we can’t deny it.

People will only listen to the truth when & IF it suits them to believe it.

We SHOOT OURSELVES IN THE FOOT if we try to force others to see a truth that THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR.

I HAVE BEEN THERE BIG TIME!!!! It is not right or fair, but IT IS THE WAY IT IS.

I am at a ipoint now, where I no longer feel a need to be VINDICATED BY OTHERS IN REAL LIFE. I vindicate and validate myself, I accept my own knowledge of MY TRUTH.

I can get vindication and validation here where others do understand.

I NO LONGER REQUIRE VINDICATION OR VALIDATION FROM those around me in life. It isn’t going to come, and by DEMANDING IT and not getting it, I am continually being DEVALUED AND DISCARDED over and over.

It is like a kid at Christmas who WANTS and EXPECTS a live pony for Christmas and if he doesn’t get that, then nothing else is as good. So when he doesn’t get the pony, the new bike is worthless or even the car he gets, he wants a PONY OR NOTHING. Well, if he keeps that attitude, then he will never be happy when he opens his presents.

When we realize we are NOT GOING TO BE VALIDATED OR VINDICATED BY OTHERS —–and stop demanding that for ourselves—-AND VINDICATE AND VALIDATE OURSELVES, then we are happy.

Sure it would be nice if those around you listened but that isn’t your power to make them listen or validate or vindicate you. IT IS IN YOUR POWER THOUGH TO ACCEPT YOUR OWN VALIDATION AS VALID. AS GOOD. AS ENOUGH! Forget the others, let them take care of themselves. YOU take care of YOU.

I had that hard and difficult lesson to learn as well, and it finally came and now I no longer give a rat’s behind what the egg donor, the neighbors or anyone else thinks. I AMNOW FREE OF EXTERNAL CONTROL.

Wini

Oxy, from one survivor to another … GREAT POST.

Piece of cake, piece of pie.

Wini

Hey, is anyone watching the Sarah Ferguson interview with Oprah? Is Sarah a Spath?

Hey, henry!! Im glad to be home, and able to contact my real mates on LF!! Hey, if you were stoopid, and I dont think you were, just kind, in love, and vulnerable, that makes us ALLhere on LF stoopid, as weve ALL done th ese things, and more to those we believed loved us.
Ultimately they are the losers as they have no love of themselves and are total fakes.We are still winners as we can still feel love, compassion and empathy. Our painful life-lessons are priceless, as they have made us into the people we are now.{Stronger in the broken places!} henry, we love you!! Mama gem.XX

Ox Drover

She may not be a psychopath, but she is a STOOOOOOOPID woman that is for sure!!!!! And GREEDY andf SHALLOW and IMMORAL and DISHONEST….but other than that, she might be OKAY.

She just carped in her mess-kit that is for [email protected] What gets me though, is that she doesn’t seem to have a great deal of SHAME about it, I saw an interview of her at the book signing and she was making jjokes about it….some of the commenters thought that was pretty cool of her to joke about it, but I didn’t particularly think it showed anything good. Much less commendable.

hens

Hey Gem Thanx for the nice words, where have you been?
Wini I watch Oprah at 11pm, I am anxious to see the Dutchess of York and here about her money woe’s. I guess it takes alot of cash to be a Dutchess….bet our OxDrover Dutchess of LoveFraud could give her some tips on saving money…:)

one/joy_step_at_a_time

i don’t think she is spathy. stupid for sure. and maybe all those other nice things oxy said.

jeannie812

Yes, The bully never worked alone. Yet the bully lead the pack to bully the lone kid.

I grew up on Milwaukee’s North West Side. I attended Milwaukee Public Schools in the 1960’s. The bully’s were the white kids. Then the busing began and the bully’s became the black kids.

The bully’s were never content to beat up one kid on one. They thought they needed 10 kids to beat up one tiny sized girl.

I remember defending a tiny Jewish girl from the black girls, another time I defended a white Johavah Witness girl from the black girls. Those black girls were 10 in number and ready to pounce on one lone girl. I asked their reason for pouncing on these girls and the bullies stated that one is Jewish and the other is Johavah Witness.

This is not about color. It is about bullies.

As an adult I went to work at a factory. I was leaving my husband. My female supervisor had an attitude towards women who fail with their men. She said it is because they didn’t please their man. She had it out for me.

She harassed me out of my job. I even switched departments to get away from her. But, she befriended my co-workers to get them to do her dirty work.

She reminded me of high school. Well, that was because she also grew up on Milwaukee North West Side. She learned the dysfunction of the North West Side and carried it with her into the job. She chased off so many employees until they were down to a skeleton crew.

Guess what happened to her? She got promoted.

silvermoon

Somewhere in the bully pack, there is always an instigator and somehow, there are others drawn to that form of leadership.

I’ve never understood it, but I have seen it.

You know it gets really ugly when it pervades small towns, churches and anywhere community tries to form.

Our culture respect warrior gods and the more aggressive, the more likely I think we are to promote people. The fact is that in the long run, it doesn’t work.

But it is encouraged. In all aspects of culture. It isn’t about anything smart, its about the perceived value of aggression.

It just doesn’t in the long run play out to have value because when the days come that companies that provide jobs will be supported because they are needed to sustain the fabric of the country, people like your dysfunctional manager aren’t going to be heroes anymore.

Funny how it works….

Ayn Rand was right. At some point the people who object are just going to let them fall on their own swords and it always does happen.

In the long run….

And thinking about the long run brings us back to this NOW and demands that we be present in the moment when we know it to be happening and to do as you did.

Don’t stop. Not for yourself, Not for others.
You were right the first time. And in the long run, it does payback many fold.

Believe it and believe in you!

Genevieve79

Excellent article. As someone who has been bullied both at school and in the adult workplace many times I would say that in my experience the more popular with peers you are the more likely you are to be bullied. Sure I’ve seen the unpopular ‘nerdy’ type kids and adults being bullied but they are the minority of targets. The majority of targets tend to be popular, attractive, socially skilled and competent at school and work. I was bullied not because I was unpopular (I had lots of friends of both sexes and hung out in a big group of us at school) but because I was popular, pretty and got good grades. My first bully when we were age 8, as she dragged me outside the school gate to attack me, slapped me across the face and said angrily ‘Don’t you take my friends off me’ I was the new girl at school and had clearly been getting on with my new classmates a little too much for her liking. She’s not much different as an adult I have to say, seems quite a miserable person actually….
That hasn’t changed much as an adult. Usually what has kicked off bullying from other women for me in the workplace has been one or several of: me visibly getting on very well with same sex colleagues, showing intelligence and competence at the job, getting superiors recognition, a male colleague giving the impression to the bully (however vague) that he thnks I’m attractive.
Basically bullies want narcissistic supply and perceive only one position at the top of the social hierarchy which of course has to belong to them. Those of us who are sane and socially healthy know that co-operation is key, civilised society need not be hierarchical in that way and power is best shared. Bullies, however, need all eyes on them all of the time. Targets like myself who genuinely get on with others and are far from low social status in our majority, take those eyes away from them and they can’t bear it.
I’ve found it only takes one bully by the way – how successful they are in isolating and attacking the target depends on the people around -colleagues etc. If they are weak and insecure themselves, the bully gives them a platform upon whch they can air their petty resentments, using the target as a punch bag to save them from having to look in the mirror at the real problem…and so mobbing starts. If they are not so weak, they will not join in with the bully and the bully will flounder. It’s a question of social dynamics. I’ve seen both in action, both as a target and as a bystander.
It’s a horrible thing and the reason why I haven’t worked a proper job for while. There’s only so much abuse from others one person can stand.
I’m still tryng to figure out how to deal with relational aggression from other women, it’s so subtle, so difficult to confront and so very common. That’s my lifes work lol!
Take it easy xxx

Genevieve79

Silvermoon I just read your first two lines – you’ve experienced the same social dynamic as I have, which I talk about in the second to last paragraph of my post. It’s true it only usually takes one and it really does depend on the people around how far it goes. Crazy isn’t it! xx

Genevieve79

Oxdrover wrote “I was the victim of severe bullying by a girl in 2nd grade (my jaw was broken) and have no way to know if she grew up to be a P or not, but she was darned sure aggressive & she didn’t seem to want any affection from me at least.”
My God Oxy how awful and only 2nd grade too. Makes me shudder to think how much danger I might have been in with my own 4th grade bully. You just don’t think 5 and 6 year olds are capable of breaking another kids jaw, so frightening that it happened to you =O xxx
I wanted to concur completely with your quote above – every female workplace bully I have known as an adult has been the same way. No matter how nice I was to them in my attempts to ‘improve the relationship’ I was rebuffed time and time again. They didn’t want to know me and would give me the cold shoulder. The one I had in 4th grade is the same way towards me as an adult, ignoring me and rebuffing any attempt I’ve made to get on with her. I’m older and wiser now so after a few attempts to ‘connect’ with her in a positive way when we first got back in touch, I’ve just begun to ignore her!
Very sad as all my bullies and I, when I look back, have tended to have alot in common in terms of interests, abilities etc. This is very telling as to why they bullied me – I represented competition to them – and very damning of the scientists theories that targets are of low status.
Namaste xx

Ox Drover

Dear Genevieve,

The worst thing about the bullying episode with me was it went on for months and I felt ashamed of it (me,, feeling guilty like somehow I had caused it) the jaw breaking incidence, she hit me with one of the old style HEAVY glass coke bottles, made my teacher notice the wound, so I had to “tell”—but afterwards, I was told it really wasn’t her fault because she was the youngest of 22 kids in one family (really!) and very poor and since she got bullied at home I had to forgive her and Be nice to her. My own pain, fear, etc. was IGNORED and INVALIDATED–i.e. I WAS PUNISHED FOR HER MISDEEDS. Really, I am not sure why she did it, maybe because she was bullied at home, but in any case, MY FEELINGS WERE VALID, my pain was valid—and it was okay for me not to like her any more. It was only 50+ years later that I realized what my real feelings about that episode were.

I guess my teacher and my parents were sincerely TRYING their best to teach me not to be bitter or unduly angry at the girl, but at the same time, MY feelings were INVALIDATED and, whether or not they realized it, they probably did me more damage than the girl did.

Most “adult” bullying is more subtle than the coke bottle to the jaw type, and is more in line with emotional abuse and passive-aggressive behavior I think, but no less BULLYING. Back stabbing, etc. I’m glad I’m out of the work force now and don’t have to deal with it any more.

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