This week we are continuing to discuss The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. The author is diplomate in forensic psychology, former Chief of the Forensic Mental Health Division for San Diego County and Past President of the American Academy of Forensic Psychology. As I said last week, my initial reaction to the book was rather negative because I believe this author has made some assertions that have become the basis for inaccurate folklore that has spread over the internet (to be discussed in the coming weeks). But Dr. Meloy made up for all that by setting the record straight on a very important issue—the spectrum of psychopathy.
The idea that psychopathy is a spectrum and that “sociopaths/psychopaths” vary in severity means that there is no real point at which “normal” stops and “sociopath/psychopath” starts. Any decision about where to draw this line (after gathering information on a large group of people) is in a sense arbitrary.
The idea that “psychopathic disturbance” (as Dr. Meloy calls it) is a spectrum can be very confusing. Many people feel a sense of relief when they finally figure out that the person who has harmed them is “a sociopath.” By “sociopath” they mean categorically different from everyone else, a different type of human. Now I am saying there is really no category, just an extreme on a continuum.
I want to point out that we talk about the extremes of the continuum of traits as if they are categories all the time. Think about the adjectives tall, genius, beautiful, athletic etc. and you will realize that although these concepts exist in theory, it can be difficult to correctly place individuals into any of these categories on a strictly yes/no basis. The only time it is easy is when you are dealing with the extreme cases.
It is however; very important to understand how the interaction between spectra and categories affects us. For example, if you are used to being with players in the NBA, most everyone outside of the NBA will seem “short” and the perception of “tall” will also be skewed. To the NBA, 6’2″ is short!
This problem of perception while in the midst of an extreme population has created a problem for forensic psychology. When Dr. Hare first developed the psychopathy checklist, it was thought to differentiate criminals who are “psychopaths” from other criminals who are “not psychopaths.” Well, I maintain that this is exactly the same as calling a 6’2″ NBA player “short.”
I am also concerned with how our perception of psychopathy changes when we see it in the community. When we are in the community a person who has “a little” psychopathy stands out as a 6’2″ person would in a crowd. Many pose the question, “Is my _______ a jerk or a psychopath?” When we understand psychopathy as a spectrum we see that such distinctions are not very useful. It is more useful to ask “How much psychopathic disturbance does my ________ have?”
I have looked extensively in the scientific literature for the exact Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) scores that might indicate mild, moderate and severe psychopathic disturbance. If you are following what I am saying you will immediately realize that these definitions are important in determining just how many “psychopaths” there are. When I searched the literature several years ago, I reported on this blog that about 10% of the population has significant psychopathy. That 10% figure corresponds to a cut-off score of about 12 on the PCL-R.
In The Psychopathic Mind, p. 318 Dr. Meloy says the following:
Mild psychopathic disturbance 10-19
Moderate psychopathic disturbance 20-29
Severe psychopathic disturbance 30-40
This is more or less what I also determined given my clinical experience and reading of the literature. You might ask why I harp on this so much and why am I harping on it again? The reason I bring this all up is to help those of you who are stuck in a relationship with someone who has “mild psychopathic disturbance.” Steve Becker also talked about the problem of “mild psychopathy” this week When he’s just a bad dude, though he did not call it that.
In what I am about to say I depart from Meloy and give you my own opinion.
The nature of “Mild Psychopathy”
Psychopathic disturbance as Meloy also describes it is a disorder of motives. Since we all have these motives psychopathy is a spectrum. Psychopathy is an imbalance between love and power motives along with degrees of poor impulse control.
A person who is severely affected with psychopathy has no love motives at all. If we could perfectly measure the love motive, we could indeed form a category of those who have NO capacity for love. That category probably also includes some individuals with “moderate disturbance” and all with “severe disturbance.”
Individuals with mild psychopathy have some ability to love. Because they can love a little, what they do is particularly harmful to “loved ones.” They switch back and forth, in and out of “loving” states. When they are in a loving state, they truly have no emotional or other memory of their experiences outside of that state. Similarly when they are in the “power mode” they have no access to the memories of the love mode. It’s as if they have a split personality. Their poor partner is left asking, “Will the real ________ please stand up?”
The dilemma for partners and family members, is that both states are real. Those involved with the “mildly psychopathic” have to make a tough decision. They have to decide whether or not to let go of a person who they have shared real intimacy with. That is much harder than letting go of someone with severe psychopathic disturbance where the entire relationship was a sham.
Dear One step,
When I was a small kid we lived out in the sticks where I didn’t have daily play mates, so I had an imaginary friend, actually two, one male and one female. Their “names” weren’t even real names but words that I had heard that I didn’t know the meaning of but thought the word was cool. I also had a pet pig once named “tissue” when I was about 3. I actually remember her and petting her—before she became BACON! I guess at the time I didn’t connect the BACON to the TISSUE! LOL
Well possibly what the PERP was getting out of the “relationship” on the phone and over the internet was the “fake love” I don’t know–I wasn’t there, and even though you were “there” you weren’t inside her head, just like the rest of us you can only surmise their “motive” whatever it is—I don’t think they think like the rest of the human race, so how could we get inside their heads?
Oh, well,k too much drama for me! I think your PERP was a pretty sick-o creep-o and wish she was in the cell with Brunhilda. May the fleas of a thousand camels infect her arm pits!
Those involved with the “mildly psychopathic” have to make a tough decision. They have to decide whether or not to let go of a person who they have shared real intimacy with. That is much harder than letting go of someone with severe psychopathic disturbance where the entire relationship was a sham.
I agree so totally with that statement and THANK YOU for stating that! Agree with Oxy. This is vitally imprt!
One step….For me it is pretty simple. If someone is pulling something over on you, no matter what else they are doing, that’s not being loving. That’s similar to what apparently happened to Tiger’s wife. It doesn’t matter how loving he was with her when he was with her. The fact that he was pulling one over on her makes the WHOLE THING, even the SUPPOSEDLY good parts, a lie. Anytime we find out someone has hid a secret from us, that they KNOW would matter to us in a major way, it is a HUGE betrayal and they have NOT been loving towards us. What they are hiding matters. The more the truth would disorient us, the bigger deal it is and the less forgivable it becomes. Does it mean everything Tiger did with his wife was NOT loving? To me, yes, it does. (Put aside the controversy about she married him for his money, etc. etc. …this kind of scenario happens in the middle class too). To me, it would mean he hasn’t a clue about what love is. Maybe I am wrong, but if I were her, it wouldn’t matter what he MIGHT be capable of, he sure wasn’t demonstrating love to her, with that going on in the background. PULLING ONE OVER ON SOMEONE IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH LOVING THEM…unless you are planning a surprise party, and even in that case, the person is usually pretty shocked that you could lie right to their face!
Oxy,
You were so proud of me with my last post, and I am now I am feeling confused again, and when I am confused I have difficulty with thinking rationally if my anxiety is high. I’m working on this and my therapist has given me a few helpful suggestions to alleviate anxiety. With that said, I am still confused.
My spath was a patho liar and womanizer who could sound sincere and self aware. Before I knew about the lying, I stayed because sometimes I felt so cared for, but realized that he had what I thought were intimacy problems. But, in my experience, even during those times where he was affectionate and I felt close to him, he was lying and womanizing the entire time, telling another woman he loved her–lying and playing around on her as well. He deliberately manipulated me and I got the distinct feeling he got enjoyment out of it. He did say something that I remembered when I read this post–I had told him that I don’t even know who he is and he said that it isn’t black and white and that ALL of it is part of him. So then I read the above post, and I feel sick thinking that he could possibly love someone. It’s easier to think that he can’t. 🙁
Hopeful6596
Hopleful, sugar, don’t worry about him loving someone else “better than he loved you” that’s for sure—he will “love” the next one just like he loved you with LIES AND MORE LIES. Don’t let this spectrum thing throw you for a loop.
Okay, there are baby camels and baby horses who are not really very big, and there are medium sized camels and medium sized horses that are medium big and there are big horses BIG and there are REALLY REALLY BIG camels and horses that are REALLY REALLY BIG and all sizes in between, but they are all horses and camels no matter what the size.
Now let’s say that a horse or a camel kicks you—well a baby camel or a horse that kicks you might hurt you a little bit but if a REALLY BIG camel or horse kicked you you might be in the hospital with a broken skull. Yet they are all still horses and camels. Same way with psychopaths, the “little bitty” ones might just get off on one-uppiing you at work, but the REALLY BIG ones might need to cut your throat and rape you to “get off” but you don’t want ANYTHING THAT IS TRYING TO HURT YOU in your life and “circle of trust.”
Here on my farm we have THE RULE! as we call it. ANYTHING that is BIGGER AND MEANER than I am goes to the happy hunting ground in the sky! NO second chances.l No excuses. If it is BIGGER A*n*d meaner than I am it GOES. I can handle something that is smaller than I am that might be meaner (well, except for a cat!) but if something is bigger than me and not as mean I can still handle it, but if it is BOTH bigger and meaner than I am, I am not going to take the chance it hurts me.
That “rule” kind of came about as a joke, when a pair of oxen I had trained one of them started kicking. It really wasn’t entirely his fault, because a man at an event had “goosed him” and he had reflexly kicked back, actually lifted the man off his feet by the BALLS, it sounded like a sledge hammer hitting a side of beef. I didn’t get sued or anything because it was at a rodeo held on the man’s own farm and he had poked the steer so he deserved what he got and actually 500 people would have bought the steer a beer because he wasn’t well liked anyway.
But the steer never quit kicking after that, and I could NOT have anything that I was going to get close to (and believe me they can kick in almost a 360 circle around themselves out about 3 ft in ANY direction except right in front of their nose.) So I sent him to the butcher and the “rule” was born. It broke up a wonderful pair of steers I had worked for 3 years to train but I couldn’t take the chance in getting my brains bashed out by a well placed kick of an animal that had a HISTORY OF STRIKING OUT.
It is the same way with a person who is “near you” who STRIKES out even every once in a while. Say he is great 99 percent of the time, but about 3 times a year he beats you black and blue and you never know what days those days will be.
It is like saying “Ted Bundy was a really good guy when he wasn’t raping and killing girls. He and Ann Rule were great friends.”
So I hope you get my meaning, you are not losing anything any more than someone who has hurt you and WILL HURT YOU AGAIN. Even Ted Bundy didn’t kill every day, but even one time is too many to keep him around! Same with your X. You didn’t lose anything worthwhile. ((((Hugs))))) Now take 3 deep breaths and say “I’m doing fine!@”
Hopeful….He COULD ” love” someone….if she was a megamillionaire interested in him. Until the $$ ran out. IF you define love as an emotion, as many do, then emotions come and go….but most that can “love” a little, can do it like you can “hate” a little. Maybe you could hate someone enough to punch them in the face in a flash of emotion….but it is going to be RARE and it won’t last, AND you will never sustain it long enough to kill someone. Is it part of you? Yeah, a tiny tiny part that rarely manifests itself, and so what does it really matter?
If you define love as “commitment”…a decision you make, in which the other person’s happiness is almost as important to you as your own, then you see that love is something that develops slowly and proves itself through actions.
I doubt your spath can sustain any good change for long at all. THAT is the crux of who he is, regardless of which “side” he is showing. The defining characteristics are his inability to sustain positive change, his inability to realize the impact he has on others, and shallow “love” feelings that can change on a dime. THAT is what is consistent in him, always.
Sounds like what you want is for him to love YOU. The thought that he could have loved YOU but didn’t, isn’t that what really gets under your skin? I HATED that feeling. It is part of what being with a man who has two, three, four sides to him does to you. IT IS NOT A NORMAL AND HEALTHY LOVE RELATIONSHIP. That is why these breakups hurt so bad and are not normal breakups. If you could just break up with the “good” side (that is, if he were a normal guy), you might hurt for a week or two, but then it is over. BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE. Because you don’t have to keep replaying it to make it make sense! These kinds of relationships you have to replay and replay and say wait…when I thought x, it was really y, so what does that mean about the thing I did next. You can go on for years and years with that thinking. I KNOW. Try to go no contact in your head as soon as possible.
And you are kinda proving the point of the article. The more that there is a tiny bit of good in them regarding something….he was kind to my cat……the harder it is to really believe that the evil is there and will NOT change and is not worth the few pets to your cat!
Neveragain and Hopeful,
My maternal grandmother was a great enabler, she was THE best. No matter what someone did, even if he had murdered his wife and family with an ax, she would say “well, he was good to his dog.” Or some other such statement! She would find something “good” in every person…that may sound “nice” but it was TERRIBLE. When her son was trying to kill her baby infant daughter she would not let his father know because he “might get a spanking” and “he might run a way from home” so she allowed him to smother his sister on a regular basis until he was 14 and the sister (my egg donor) was 7 before his father caught him and put a STOP to it. Was that a “Kind” or “good” thing she did for her daughter? Or her son really? He grew up to be a monster wife and child abuser but no matter what horrible thing he did she “saw the good” even when he held her hostage once at gun point in a drunken rage for three days.
We must look at the ENTIRE person, just like neveragain said! The good and the bad, and we need to see which part out weighs the other. Like I said in the post about my late husband, we had a good marriage but there were some things he did that drove me bat guano but they were small things, and I’m SURE he had something about me that drove him ape manure (don’t know what, I’m actually kind of perfect LOL) but I’m sure he had something! LOL
There are some things that are DEAL breakers. I am now sure of what my deal breakers are—-anything dishonest! OUT and gone! No second chances!
Oxy,
You’re absolutely right. I love your metaphors and it certainly gets the point across. I hope you know how appreciated you are here on LF. It’s so easy to see. You put in such genuine effort–and INTEREST in the people here, and it’s why people “gravitate” towards you. Moreover, your particular experience with Spathiness seems so extreme, yet you’ve kept your sense of humor and realism about the situation. That said, I think that it gives people hope that they CAN get through their experience with a Spath. I really am doing much better, although I think it’s a two step forward, one step back sort of process.
Also wanted to mention that I did get even more validation that my XSpath is still Spathing. I know. BOINK! Like I should expect him to do anything else. But, when he showed up here a month ago saying he was going to therapy (impression management since I outed his ass to his “girlfriend” who then dumped him and to others he was conning, including a male friend who will now have nothing more to do with him), he said that he wasn’t going to be dating since he needed to get himself together. I should have known, since I’ve heard that exact same thing each time we broke up when I caught him doing his spathiness thing. He’d say with such sincerity, “The last thing I should be doing is dating, so I’m not going to date for a while.” Anyway, so he said it for the 3rd time this last time he came by. He also said that he had a new roommate, a redheaded woman, and he made sure to point out that he’s not attracted to redheads or blondes. He also said that once a week he plays board games with a group of women who all have boyfriends. (That never stopped him before, BTW). SO THEN…just two days ago I get on a dating site I had been on before because I’m thinking about finally starting to date. Well, guess who pops up on the dating site!!!!! He’s still lying about his age by 2 years–says he’s 37 when he’s actually 39 1/2. He used to lie by 4 years. He’s using a photo from about 10 years ago. AND where it says what he wants in a dates–he is NOT excluding redheads and blondes. He also says he speaks 4 languages fluently, which is not true. And ya know what got me? He used to say that I was too short at 5″2. His last “GF” wasn’t any taller than me and he puts on his criteria of what he is looking for anyone that is 5″2 or taller. In his profile, there is nothing written about WHO he is. And he says he is looking for someone who is naughty, nice, and saucy. Hell, I am! F**cker. He also writes that among all the fun things they’d do together–“of course, money business indoors and outdoors.” F**cker! Anyway–NOT dating my butt! So, is it any surprise he is STILL lying?? Dr. Steve wrote a great article on here about the pathological lying of the Spath. He writes that even if they were to lie less, it doesn’t make them less spathy because they use TRUTH TO MANIPULATE just as they use lies. Oxy, this is SOOOOOO TRUE. They use truth to sound more credible. My therapist says she has no doubt he’s going to play the “I’m going to therapy” gig with people he’s dating. I have no doubt either. Anyway, I am okay and I’m going to continue to get even more okay-er! 🙂 TOWANDA!!
Hopeful6596~
Dear Hopeful,
I don’t ask much but pleassssse do NOT cyber date, it is so dangerous and your own x P is a perfect example of the guys you will find out there! We have got to get our own cheet together before we will even be a good partner to an honest partner. I got involved with a P about 8 months after my husband died, and I thought I was OK, but BOY was I fooling myself. Paddling down that river DENIAL and it wasn’t in Egypt! I felt so needy. I realized finally that I needed to put my energy into taking care of me, not trying to handle a relationship. Until I was OK by myself, depending on ME to supply my happiness, not a new relationship, then I wouldn’t be emotionally ready.
A new relationshit will not make you happy, or whole. We have got to do that for ourselves BY ourselves. SO right now focus all that wonderful energy on The best person you know YOUU!!!!! ((((hugs)))))
And, you are RIGHT, he will GO ON LYING until his last breath.
Oxy,
Okay, I won’t cyber date. I promise. I have heard it’s where the P’s love to congregate and “fish”. In fact, I met him online, but on a totally different site than I saw him on.
I do have male friends that are wonderful, so perhaps I may just stick with that for right now. And yes, I SOOO know that nobody can make me whole. In fact, if a guy starts putting me on a pedestal, which may be part of the honeymoon period of any relationshit, I don’t necessarily discount the person, but I WATCH, because it may be a sign that the person can only do the honeymoon period and can’t do the real part of the relationship. Don’t wanna sound pessimistic, but something tells me you get the gist.
Okay, no dating on the internet. School starts soon so maybe I can score a cute, smart guy in class! 🙂
hopeful6596~