This week we are continuing to discuss The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. The author is diplomate in forensic psychology, former Chief of the Forensic Mental Health Division for San Diego County and Past President of the American Academy of Forensic Psychology. As I said last week, my initial reaction to the book was rather negative because I believe this author has made some assertions that have become the basis for inaccurate folklore that has spread over the internet (to be discussed in the coming weeks). But Dr. Meloy made up for all that by setting the record straight on a very important issue—the spectrum of psychopathy.
The idea that psychopathy is a spectrum and that “sociopaths/psychopaths” vary in severity means that there is no real point at which “normal” stops and “sociopath/psychopath” starts. Any decision about where to draw this line (after gathering information on a large group of people) is in a sense arbitrary.
The idea that “psychopathic disturbance” (as Dr. Meloy calls it) is a spectrum can be very confusing. Many people feel a sense of relief when they finally figure out that the person who has harmed them is “a sociopath.” By “sociopath” they mean categorically different from everyone else, a different type of human. Now I am saying there is really no category, just an extreme on a continuum.
I want to point out that we talk about the extremes of the continuum of traits as if they are categories all the time. Think about the adjectives tall, genius, beautiful, athletic etc. and you will realize that although these concepts exist in theory, it can be difficult to correctly place individuals into any of these categories on a strictly yes/no basis. The only time it is easy is when you are dealing with the extreme cases.
It is however; very important to understand how the interaction between spectra and categories affects us. For example, if you are used to being with players in the NBA, most everyone outside of the NBA will seem “short” and the perception of “tall” will also be skewed. To the NBA, 6’2″ is short!
This problem of perception while in the midst of an extreme population has created a problem for forensic psychology. When Dr. Hare first developed the psychopathy checklist, it was thought to differentiate criminals who are “psychopaths” from other criminals who are “not psychopaths.” Well, I maintain that this is exactly the same as calling a 6’2″ NBA player “short.”
I am also concerned with how our perception of psychopathy changes when we see it in the community. When we are in the community a person who has “a little” psychopathy stands out as a 6’2″ person would in a crowd. Many pose the question, “Is my _______ a jerk or a psychopath?” When we understand psychopathy as a spectrum we see that such distinctions are not very useful. It is more useful to ask “How much psychopathic disturbance does my ________ have?”
I have looked extensively in the scientific literature for the exact Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) scores that might indicate mild, moderate and severe psychopathic disturbance. If you are following what I am saying you will immediately realize that these definitions are important in determining just how many “psychopaths” there are. When I searched the literature several years ago, I reported on this blog that about 10% of the population has significant psychopathy. That 10% figure corresponds to a cut-off score of about 12 on the PCL-R.
In The Psychopathic Mind, p. 318 Dr. Meloy says the following:
Mild psychopathic disturbance 10-19
Moderate psychopathic disturbance 20-29
Severe psychopathic disturbance 30-40
This is more or less what I also determined given my clinical experience and reading of the literature. You might ask why I harp on this so much and why am I harping on it again? The reason I bring this all up is to help those of you who are stuck in a relationship with someone who has “mild psychopathic disturbance.” Steve Becker also talked about the problem of “mild psychopathy” this week When he’s just a bad dude, though he did not call it that.
In what I am about to say I depart from Meloy and give you my own opinion.
The nature of “Mild Psychopathy”
Psychopathic disturbance as Meloy also describes it is a disorder of motives. Since we all have these motives psychopathy is a spectrum. Psychopathy is an imbalance between love and power motives along with degrees of poor impulse control.
A person who is severely affected with psychopathy has no love motives at all. If we could perfectly measure the love motive, we could indeed form a category of those who have NO capacity for love. That category probably also includes some individuals with “moderate disturbance” and all with “severe disturbance.”
Individuals with mild psychopathy have some ability to love. Because they can love a little, what they do is particularly harmful to “loved ones.” They switch back and forth, in and out of “loving” states. When they are in a loving state, they truly have no emotional or other memory of their experiences outside of that state. Similarly when they are in the “power mode” they have no access to the memories of the love mode. It’s as if they have a split personality. Their poor partner is left asking, “Will the real ________ please stand up?”
The dilemma for partners and family members, is that both states are real. Those involved with the “mildly psychopathic” have to make a tough decision. They have to decide whether or not to let go of a person who they have shared real intimacy with. That is much harder than letting go of someone with severe psychopathic disturbance where the entire relationship was a sham.
Rosa;
Great post, especially regarding vulnerability (and I would add trust). My x-spath online presence leaves and interesting trail of clues regarding both him and sociopaths in general. While he never really says much, there are some “gems.” In fact, I believe his lack of detail is consistent with sociopathy. One gem is the word “independent,” used in an otherwise terse profile: “I’m a single, independent gay man…” I find this a curious word for a gay man to use, with an underlying implication of power and control.
A relationship with a psychopathic type is always going to be fragmented and unpredictable at best.
Because the psychopath’s power motive is going to take over at inappropriate times, leaving you with that “what the ??” feeling or maybe complete devastation….depending on how well balanced their inner triangle is.
It can also be called the cycle of abuse, right?
And it’s NOT something that’s ever going to change, either.
That’s another thing I’ve noticed about psychopaths, regardless of where they fall on the spectrum…..their ROCK-SOLID personality structure is VERY RESISTANT to change.
That’s another mistake I’ve made in the past.
I fell into the “Hope for Change” mentality, and I tried to make it happen. It never will.
I also mis-interpreted a man’s resistance to change or show vulnerability as “confidence” and “strength”.
But, at the end of the day, it turned out to be neither confidence nor strength…..just dysfunction.
Being the hopeless romantic that I am, I still believe it’s OK to leave yourself vulnerable in the name of Love.
Just make sure you are leaving yourself vulnerable to someone who also has the ability to love….truly love.
Red flags…..they don’t just fly in Russia, you know.
“neveragain says:
No kidding, Rosa. I think they experience OUR love as an attempt to control them and it brings out rage.”
I did not see rage per say but when I hinted that maybe my x-spath should take better car of himself, especially regarding smoking and drinking, his reply was angry: “I need to do that for myself…”
Conversely, I will use an example I told at an AA meeting last night. Right now, I am back up un Montreal for a long weekend. While I was living here last summer, I met this very nice, very caring guy who, if you believe in the AA higher power thing, was sent to me by some higher power to protect me from me long enough until I could make my life manageable. This guy does not drink, and only once did we ever go out where I was drinking.
That night, I had two large glasses of wine at dinner, then one more at the Saint Laurent bar (very famous bar in Quebec City, I used this as an excuse to get him in!!) and then we left for a club. At the club, I went for a beer and he said to me very kindly that he wished I did not have another drink. Instead of being angry, I saw this as care and concern, especially since he knew about my health condition at the time.
With the x-spath, despite my concerns of his and my own drinking, my x-spath was very “in my face” about it, politely, but almost spitefully so.
Don’t you love it when the psychos start touting their “independence” as they suck the life out of everyone & everything around them?
An “independent” psychopath….is that an oxy moron??
Sort of like the “productive” sociopath on the other thread.
Priceless.
this has been a very interesting thread. The spath spectrum….I find myself wondering if all I felt, thought, went through has really happened. He is remarried for the third time, having a third child in five years as well as custody of my daughter…I keep thinking maybe there is nothing wrong with him. Maybe it was me? But when I read these various descriptions I KNOW it wasn’t me. I can love. I have empathy. Huge amounts of empathy. I didn’t want to be divorced and never would have left him had I felt cared for. He would say to anyone who listened that I was needy, and that I expected him to meet all my needs. HUH? Seriously? I am very independent…what I asked from him and what his first wife asked from him too (he told me) was that we wanted our husband to be our friend…I never felt he had my back. He put me in the line of fire with is crazy family, his mother..he would say I am not taking sides. He would allow his only male friend to put me down and not say anything. I’d ask why and he said “You can defend yourself”. So, is that needy that I wanted my husband to side with me? Hell no. But it is the crazy making feeling that he does by putting this on me and by his winning so far….I feel like the crazy one because of the position I am in right now. Yes, he might have had moments of something near to love…but I look back and see the video of him when we got our daughter and the tears are fake. I can see it now. All the crazy push pull he did while dating…he could see how I reacted to know if I was a target…I was…I wasn’t healthy enough at that time I say No to those behaviors. OxDrover is right….there are no second changes any more. I dated one guy that was just about as sick…and I broke up with him, I took him back only to break up again…and then he called my ex spath and they worked together. That was a while ago but the damage is happening now. It is amazing…I am so not ready to date. Mostly because I trust no one and it wouldn’t be fair to anyone that was healthy. Altho I don’t know I can choose healthy yet. Despite five years out. And I wonder, like others have said, he is married again…and five years, three new children..is he making it with this woman. Is it me? Why do I still go there? I think because, as I said, I am losing right now.
I’m feeling confused and wondering if I will ever get out of this. Will it ever get better because five years ago I remember thinking in five years it will be so much better and it is so much worse! Worse than I could ever have imagined.
But, I started my contact with daughter, after having the judge believe him and make me do supervised visits. I have been immobilized after that…after my mom died, my brother started working with spath…all those things that hit me the past 6 months…so unfair and untrue. I set up a time to call her (she lives three hours away by car) three times a week, email daily to new wife (I cannot deal with spath at all), sent her a big care package. talked to her today via phone for an hour…..I cannot let him win any more. I need to reverse this. God, it is a lonely feeling doing this shit. I have to pay to see her and I am not making much money….barely making it and I used to have a life! Wow. It’s hard to even imagine wanting to be with someone. I think I do but I think that is more about having someone help me through this…no one can. It has to be up to me because that is how I will grow. I cannot give anything to anyone except my kids. They are all i care about. And hopefully I will start caring more about me soon. Not a self pity comment, but the truth
Dear Chinagirl,
Sugar I hear a GREAT DEAL of PROGRESS in your post above. A great deal of self awareness about where you are, what you need to do, and you are WORKING on these things (the contact with your daughter) in a HEALTHY WAY.
Working on yourself, your trust issues…..and if my past experience is any guide—-I think the issue of trusting YOURSELF to keep you safe is the biggest issue. We have let ourselves down by allowing these people to abuse us continually. We have lost trust in others, but most, I think, we have lost trust in ourselves.
You can learn to trust yourself again, in a healthy way, by acting in a healthy manner. You are starting to do that. Realizing that you need to focus your energy on yourself and keeping the contact with your daughter. Accepting that there are things you cannot do anything about right NOW but you CAN do other things, like the phone calls, the “care packages” and the letters. GREAT!!!! I think that is SUPER good planning.
Remember on the airlines they tell you if the Oxygen masks fall down, and you are with a child, PUT YOUR MASK ON FIRST rather than putting it on the child first. In order to help your CHILD YOU must take care of YOU FIRST. Hang in there Chinagirl, I feel so uplifted by your post, that you are working a plan, and planning your actions. Using your resources for the best possible uses, taking care of yourself and your daughter! TOWANDA!!!! ((((Hugs))))) and you are in my prayers!
thank you so much. What is TOWANDA? I read it somewhere the first day on the site but cannot remember.
I have decided to use spath’s wife as contact person. evertime I try to just text spath to just call D he texts me 15 texts with a diatribe I do not want to be a part of. so, she is the one I am contacting and so far she seems ok with it. I set up a different email acct, like I said, just for them. I told D today on the phone that I would email her daily and as her step mom to have her copy them for her and she can email me me whenever, as well. I also set up those three times to day. My D told me a better time and we will do that.
My D sounded great. I thought she would be angry, distant….but she was happy and talking about her chickens. She seems to just stay with her kitty and her animals and kind of live there….she is going to a new school for gifted kids and starts tomorrow..Very cool. I was the one who always did everything for her…you know….I taught her everything, set up the house so she could explore, draw, read, write, color, jump, whatever….and I took her to play dates, library, movies, she cooked with me, she and I did everything together. Until I left. I always wanted her to be in a Montessori school…because I know her.. I know how she learns. my spath would always fight me for every single detail of everything. If it wasn’t his idea it wouldn’t happen. Is this common for spaths? Even having a pond! I came up with idea, he laughed and put it down. One month later he says oh let’s have a pond and viola, we had a pond. asshole. But my point is it is so VERY HARD to sit here and have nothing to do with my daughters life. He won’t follow the court orders for example to tell me which airline he flies when he takes her to his home town,,,or what she si doing in school, or any of that. i try to call and talk to teachers so they know I am around but he is now setting it up to tell them I have to be supervised so they think something is wrong with me. Anyway, I got off phone with D today and just allowed myself to cry. So scary to cry because it feels like it won’t ever stop. and the only things I wanted were to be with my dad and my kids and I don’t get to have those right now. It just pains me. As you all know. But, I do feel more empowerd by doing something….by taking action, taking a step forward despite not being able to see into the future..I can’t imagine having to do this for 10 more years….my god….but I can’t go there with my thinking. It’s pointless. I do what I can do now. today. that’s all I can do. Tomorrow I do it again.
Oh, I’m sorry. TOWANDA! is the battle cry of older and wiser people. It comes from a scene in the movie “Fried green tomatoes” where these uppity kids in a VW ram their car into a parking spot ahead of one of the characters who was obviously trying to get into the spot and the kids made some rude remark to the middle aged woman, who yelled TOWANDA and smashed into their car! The kids were WTF???? and basically she said “older smarter, meaner and better insurance” I can’t even remember what she said, but the TOWANDA was used here for the last year or so as our BATTLE CRY!
We also have “relationshit” which I think Henry came up with and
there are others as well. Can’t think of them off the top of my head right now, but if you come across one you don’t understand just ask!
I imagine the cry felt both good and scary at the same time. They say that the tears do wash our souls so I hope it gave you some comfort as well. I suggest though that you live in the NOW and not worry about what will happen in 5 years or 10 years, but just think about TODAY and how you have actually taken some ACTION about keeping in touch with your daughter. You know for now her step mother is being kind and cooperative with you, so that is a good step forward. Your daughter is responding to your calls and e mails so that is good and she knows that you care! Progress. Baby steps, but progress! TOWANDA!!!!!! (((Hugs))))
chinagirl,
You just might end up being a source of support (in the future) for the current wife – you never know what’s up the road, in store for her. I think communicating with your daughter’s step-mother is brilliant, allowing you to interact with another person who hopefully can relate to you as a mother and a human being, avoiding the toxic one (who you cannot handle right now). I pray more things go your way.
Chinagirl,
I hear your pain, but more importantly your strength, insight and intellect. It can be so hard when we aren’t where we want to be, but if you can take it as it comes, hour by hour, one day at a time you will find yourself closer to where you want to be. That is what I have to tell myself, it’s advice from a good friend and sometimes it is the best we can do. All the best in getting to where you want to be.
Ox, thank you for the tips and insights.
Stay STRONG!
-peace