This week we are continuing to discuss The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. The author is diplomate in forensic psychology, former Chief of the Forensic Mental Health Division for San Diego County and Past President of the American Academy of Forensic Psychology. As I said last week, my initial reaction to the book was rather negative because I believe this author has made some assertions that have become the basis for inaccurate folklore that has spread over the internet (to be discussed in the coming weeks). But Dr. Meloy made up for all that by setting the record straight on a very important issue—the spectrum of psychopathy.
The idea that psychopathy is a spectrum and that “sociopaths/psychopaths” vary in severity means that there is no real point at which “normal” stops and “sociopath/psychopath” starts. Any decision about where to draw this line (after gathering information on a large group of people) is in a sense arbitrary.
The idea that “psychopathic disturbance” (as Dr. Meloy calls it) is a spectrum can be very confusing. Many people feel a sense of relief when they finally figure out that the person who has harmed them is “a sociopath.” By “sociopath” they mean categorically different from everyone else, a different type of human. Now I am saying there is really no category, just an extreme on a continuum.
I want to point out that we talk about the extremes of the continuum of traits as if they are categories all the time. Think about the adjectives tall, genius, beautiful, athletic etc. and you will realize that although these concepts exist in theory, it can be difficult to correctly place individuals into any of these categories on a strictly yes/no basis. The only time it is easy is when you are dealing with the extreme cases.
It is however; very important to understand how the interaction between spectra and categories affects us. For example, if you are used to being with players in the NBA, most everyone outside of the NBA will seem “short” and the perception of “tall” will also be skewed. To the NBA, 6’2″ is short!
This problem of perception while in the midst of an extreme population has created a problem for forensic psychology. When Dr. Hare first developed the psychopathy checklist, it was thought to differentiate criminals who are “psychopaths” from other criminals who are “not psychopaths.” Well, I maintain that this is exactly the same as calling a 6’2″ NBA player “short.”
I am also concerned with how our perception of psychopathy changes when we see it in the community. When we are in the community a person who has “a little” psychopathy stands out as a 6’2″ person would in a crowd. Many pose the question, “Is my _______ a jerk or a psychopath?” When we understand psychopathy as a spectrum we see that such distinctions are not very useful. It is more useful to ask “How much psychopathic disturbance does my ________ have?”
I have looked extensively in the scientific literature for the exact Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) scores that might indicate mild, moderate and severe psychopathic disturbance. If you are following what I am saying you will immediately realize that these definitions are important in determining just how many “psychopaths” there are. When I searched the literature several years ago, I reported on this blog that about 10% of the population has significant psychopathy. That 10% figure corresponds to a cut-off score of about 12 on the PCL-R.
In The Psychopathic Mind, p. 318 Dr. Meloy says the following:
Mild psychopathic disturbance 10-19
Moderate psychopathic disturbance 20-29
Severe psychopathic disturbance 30-40
This is more or less what I also determined given my clinical experience and reading of the literature. You might ask why I harp on this so much and why am I harping on it again? The reason I bring this all up is to help those of you who are stuck in a relationship with someone who has “mild psychopathic disturbance.” Steve Becker also talked about the problem of “mild psychopathy” this week When he’s just a bad dude, though he did not call it that.
In what I am about to say I depart from Meloy and give you my own opinion.
The nature of “Mild Psychopathy”
Psychopathic disturbance as Meloy also describes it is a disorder of motives. Since we all have these motives psychopathy is a spectrum. Psychopathy is an imbalance between love and power motives along with degrees of poor impulse control.
A person who is severely affected with psychopathy has no love motives at all. If we could perfectly measure the love motive, we could indeed form a category of those who have NO capacity for love. That category probably also includes some individuals with “moderate disturbance” and all with “severe disturbance.”
Individuals with mild psychopathy have some ability to love. Because they can love a little, what they do is particularly harmful to “loved ones.” They switch back and forth, in and out of “loving” states. When they are in a loving state, they truly have no emotional or other memory of their experiences outside of that state. Similarly when they are in the “power mode” they have no access to the memories of the love mode. It’s as if they have a split personality. Their poor partner is left asking, “Will the real ________ please stand up?”
The dilemma for partners and family members, is that both states are real. Those involved with the “mildly psychopathic” have to make a tough decision. They have to decide whether or not to let go of a person who they have shared real intimacy with. That is much harder than letting go of someone with severe psychopathic disturbance where the entire relationship was a sham.
This discussion really does get to the heart of my original reluctance to label my guy a sociopath or psychopath or narcissist. While I am certain he fits the criteria and checklists, I believe he lacks the Evil Intent that so many others have described on this site. Like OxDrover just said, he is what he is. For example, a snake. A snake isn’t being evil toward you, he isn’t even thinking about you. He’s just doing what a snake naturally does. So if we don’t want to be bitten, we learn not to mess with snakes.
I think my deepest hurts from this man have come from me expecting him to reciprocate my love. He just simply will not. Neither would a snake. He loves ONE PERSON, first, only, to the exclusion of all others, always, and unnegotiably… HIMSELF.
One of our local businesses has a sign posted:
RULE NUMBER ONE: The customer is always right.
RULE NUMBER TWO: If the customer is ever wrong, refer to rule number one.
Well, my s-path’s number one rule is: PUTTING HIMSELF FIRST. If this hurts me or other people, interferes with anything, causes any problems, if there are any questions… it’s simple: REFER TO RULE NUMBER ONE. No exceptions for love or loyalty or commitment or honesty. His purest and overriding motive in every action is his own self-interest, his personal wants and needs. I really don’t think he weighs the possibility of our hurts or happiness. It doesn’t matter at all. Even if they register a little, his own desire trumps them regardless.
When I understand that the power/self motive ALWAYS overrides the love motive, I can believe that he isn’t hurting me on purpose. It’s just a natural outcome of living by his pure selfishness and greed. This is why I have a hard time calling him Pure Evil, because (at least with my guy) I truly don’t see him acting to intentionally harm me. Even his rages are not constructed to be hurtful to me, but to gain power for him. And I do believe he loves me (as best he can understand it), but not enough to put my needs first, in any situation whatsoever. Dr. Leedom said, “Both states are real (the power drive and the love drive).” I really believe that. I’ve never felt “conned” as if everything he ever told me is a lie. I understand many of you think that they are 100% liars, all the time, and I respect your different situations. This is probably where the spectrum observation is helpful.
Like the typical s-path he does have shallow emotions and lives in an impulsive state. If he thinks of it, and thinks there’s a chance it might make him happy, he will do it. Easy choice. Cheating, stealing, anything. And since his emotions of guilt won’t last long anyway (a couple seconds in my opinion), there’s really nothing holding him back. Yes, his actions may hurt people he loves, but REFER TO RULE NUMBER ONE!
So I wonder if we are perpetuating our hurts by expecting an s-path to fit into our idea of love and loyalty, the way we define it as normal people. Normal authentic love would prevent him from hurting us, we think, and when the result is very different, we can only be left feeling bewildered and betrayed and angry. As neveragain said above, it all makes no sense. Our love motivations have no compatibility whatsoever with his self-driven power motivations.
So while I believe his love is REAL, his selfishness is far more powerful, and he will CHOOSE HIMSELF OVER OTHERS everytime. At this point in my healing I am accepting that fact as an unchangeable fact. He is a “snake” and acting out of his inborn impulses. I don’t know if he can learn to be selfless. I just don’t know. I do know that he can ACT very kind and helpful and loving and considerate. And, I don’t think this is simply an ACT. I think there is a payoff for him when he does these things.
Also, interestingly, I have learned that my needs can sometimes (unintentionally) get met during his self-quest. It’s a happy accident, and it has made things very confusing. He will point to a time that he did something for me, as proof that he loves me. Was he doing this to altruistically help me and love me, or because he stood to benefit?
Plus, I’ve been wearing my love-colored glasses. If he fixes my car’s brakes, I read “love” into that action – “He wants me to be safe, he wants to save me the cost of the repair, he wants to help me, to be there for me, to spend time on this project with me, he generously gives his time and talents to me… on and on.” To him, fixing my brakes means, “I like messing with cars, plus she seems like she’s going to start griping about it if I don’t do it. Saves me trouble to get it done. And, I’ll get her thanks and attention all afternoon.” Guess what – the love motive wasn’t even really there, but I imagined it because that’s my perspective. Now that my eyes are opened I see how virtually all of his actions can also be seen as self-driven too. I have interpreted the happy coincidences of his self-drive as love and caring and loyalty. It’s easy to do that in the start of a relationship anyway. We assume, and trust, and if he seems to “selfishly want us all the time” that sounds pretty flattering too.
Another reason that I don’t feel duped or purposefully hurt by this person is because he is the definition of impulsive. He never knows what he is doing hour to hour. There is no way he sat around many months ago and made up a master plan to hurt me and use me and con me. He just impulsively asks himself, “What do I want to do today, right now, to make myself happy?” That’s the only thing that guides him, not love or loyalty, or commitment or obligation or respect for others. No wonder he is bored all the time. He has ruled out a majority of the activities that normal people routinely do!
Maybe if I can misunderstand his selfish motives as love, I can also misinterpret his actions as purposefully hurting me. Once when I confronted him with an action that was WRONG and very hurtful, and destroyed any shred of trust, his response was in effect, “I know that hurt you, but it’s what I had to do.” He effectively felt he had no choice but to hurt me, because he LOGICALLY had to choose himself. He says he is a survivor. It makes NO SENSE to him to choose any other person over himself. It seems foolish! For example, he goes out and has a one-night stand. To all of us of course, he looks like an opportunistic predator, but he really honestly can’t understand why he should turn down something he wants to do just for my benefit. I’m ME, not him. They’re my feelings, not his. He can’t relate. Besides, REFER TO RULE NUMBER ONE!
In the end, I do still feel pity for him, but not because he had a bad childhood, or is in a bad situation, or the world seems to be against him, as he says. I feel pity in seeing that he CAN be loving and kind (and I don’t think it’s just an act). He really can. He just chooses not to because he chooses himself instead. So many of you say that the s-paths’ behaviors will never change, and I’m understanding that. Even when they straighten up for a while, it’s only to get back in our good graces, or because it suits their purposes. That’s because the behaviors are reflecting their underlying dearest value: ME FIRST. It’s that value itself that will ultimately have to change.
Thanks for reading my observations. I’m still new at this, but am learning very much. Thanks OxDrover for your replies to my previous posts. I broke NC with him to discuss some of what I just wrote. Talking to him cost me two wretched days of withdrawal again, but I think this insight may have been worth it. It feels a little like closure, and I’ve actually had some peace today, something I haven’t felt in months!
Justdreamin – Wow you got it right…they simply do what they do, I have analyzed the carp out him and me and the relationship…I once told him ‘ you are not who I thought you were’ and his reply was ‘ we dont always get what we want do we?’ took me for freakin ever to get him out of my house….he is not my problem anymore and i did learn alot about me..i still have that nagging little ‘i wish he had been real thing’ but not much anymore he is what he is..so i carry on…
Dear Just dreamin,
Darling, trying to discuss things with them is a bit like discussing snakes with a snake, or love with a snake….don’t get a lot of return on investment! But if it gives you some closure, it will be the only closure you will get from him. They just don’t “get it.”
Good luck, and really, it doesn’t matter if he is a low level or a high level, you don’t want a relationshit with either! NC FOREVER!!!!
Well, the peace and closure only lasted hours. Seems the roller coaster is going down another hill…
OxDrover, no he just doesn’t “get it”! At all! And may never!
Hens, “they simply do what they do” … over and over and over apparently!
So yesterday while I was “waxing philosophical” on the post above, and describing that I have to accept him how he is, and basically not expect anything from him, he was meanwhile out running around betraying me, yet again! Even though I thought I had convinced myself to “accept” his faults, and even forgive him, the new betrayal still hurts all over again!
This is the grief process, isn’t it? Fluctuating between denial and acceptance and loss … plus craziness? I’m about to lose it!
I haven’t talked to him, but found out last night through an unusual phone call that he has been seeing the ONE PERSON that a year ago he promised not to see. This was for his own good, because this friend had been a horrible influence on him. I had even told him that if he ever felt tempted to see this person, please be honest and tell me, we would talk about it and work something out. To me, knowing the truth and dealing with it openly, even though it’s bad, was much better than him lying and hiding things. He agreed to be open about it. He has acknowledged in the past months that he has had a little communication with this person (email etc), but yesterday I learned they have been running around together again, just like before! I can see why he wouldn’t tell me, because he didn’t want me to “get mad,” but I had already given him the option of being honest without blame. And he KNEW that this one action was a deal-breaker for me. Why of all things must he choose to do this ONE THING he agreed not to do?
So now, here’s what’s crazy, and sad. I want to talk to him, and have him make me feel better about it. He will explain that it wasn’t all that I was imagining, that it was no big deal, that I always make way too much of everything, that he didn’t lie – just didn’t tell me, etc. He has a perfect way of soothing me when I am upset. And, sadly, I love to believe this! It makes me feel better.
Our unhealthy way of relating to each other all began when I first got to know him. When I was upset BY him, he would comfort me and make me feel better ABOUT him. A weird cycle. I had no one else to talk to about it, so it worked. Here’s the thing: when my husband and I first realized this young man was more than we (or probably anyone) could handle or could keep in line, my husband took a “hands off” approach to him. Oh, he occasionally says something like, “There’s no reason you can’t be home on time from now on,” but that’s about as far as his input goes. And besides my husband is gone away about half the time, so that leaves the enforcing up to me. And my husband is glad because he isn’t an enforcer in the first place. He has worse boundaries than I do!
Anyway, once I was left on my own to deal with this guy, I know this is wrong, but I resorted to my “feminine wiles” or charm or whatever you want to say. I wasn’t trying to be seductive or anything else, just playing along with the guy really. Trying to get along, and relate, and hope that he would cooperate because he liked me. “Liked me” I mean, not anything more!! Maybe I was on some level realizing the danger he represented, and trying to control it however I could. Maybe this is like the Stockholm Syndrome.
So now my husband says he is going to ask the guy to leave, because he keeps going back to the bad friend(s) despite everything we have done to keep him away from all that. I am panicked and don’t know how I am going to handle this. Am I ready? Will it only reinforce the trauma bond between us, to have my husband suddenly step in? And what if anything am I ever going to tell my husband about what is going on? Our marriage is a mess as you can imagine. But telling him all this would only put him through what I’ve been through, and I don’t want him to know even half of it. It’s awful!
My husband says he will defer to whatever I think we should do. So … am I making too much of this? What if he’s only been running with the bad friend the past 3 weeks (my best guess)? He seems to have his life together in so many other ways, should I overlook this as a simple mess-up? I hate to kick him to the curb, he will only latch on to the friend more.
I was just at the point of forgiving him, accepting him as he is, seeing the good things, detaching from him, and personally feeling much better. Now what?
Dear Justdreamin,
This is a typical TRIANGLE OF DRAMA, and if you don’t GET OUT OF this cycle, it is goin to get WORSE not better.
The man has proven he is a liar, and gettting him out of your life is the FIRST STEP to getting your life back in order.
The SECOND step is to get yourself back in order and YOU QUIT PLAYING GAMES.
The THIRD STEP is for you to either get your marriage back on track and honest and/or get a divorce, or keep on playing games for the rest of your life.
Those are your only options.
The postions of TRIANGLE DRAMA are VICTIM, RESCUER and PERSECUTOR/ABUSER.
Right now your “friend/son/lover” is the PERSECUTOR by breakikng his word and running around with this “bad gu” and lying.
You are the VICTIM
Your Husband is the RESCUER and the victim is wanting the rescuer to be the bad guy and put the PERSECUTOR OUT so she doesn’t have to.
But before long there will be other roles, and everyone will play “musical chairs” with the different roles. AND ROUND AND ROUND IT GOES.
This whole situation is nothing but a DRAMA-RAMA and if you truly want to live a healthy life, you need to disengage with this situation. As long as you try to “make sense” out of it, it can only get worse. This may not be what you want to hear, but “the truth will set you free, though first it may pith you off.” God bless. Only you can fix this mess. GEt out of it ASAP!
Jim has no ability to love.
I question if he loves his children. It seemed to me by his actions that his children were property. He didn’t put up enough fight to get visitation. His house was piled up to the rafters which is NOT ideal for a parent desperate to see his kids again. Instead he waits for his opportunity to ‘steal’ them back.
He put me ‘his girlfriend’ on the back burner. He didn’t love me. Yet, he stalked me for 5 years to keep it going. He made sure there was no one else but him. He refused to do nice things so I would love him. No, instead he bulldozed down to be with him.
Jim stole from me every chance he got. Yet he made sure he got every sock he left behind.
And the thing was…. he wasn’t spending the night at my house. He was just dropping his shit off.
Jim is obsessed with internet porn, swingers, and the whole sex scene.
This is what I found on his computer. His email was four pages deep with the filth. I didn’t finally find a clean email until page four of email. It was an email from me. And, that is what he was doing while he was ditching and dodging me.
Oxy, & Hens,
What about the one-eyed trouser snake!?
Some of these need to be avoided, as we dont know where theyve been! AAARRGGGHHH!!
{feeling BAAAD today!}
Love,
gem.XX
MAMMA GEM!!!!!!
(gasp)
Yea EB! I have a BAAD and wicked side to my nature!!
Are you shocked?
Love, Mamagem.
Jeannie:
I was listening to Sade’s ‘new’ song…..
today and wondering really…..if spath has any sort of ‘love’ for his kids…..unfortunately…..I came up with the same answer that was shown me the past few years…..NO!
That is really the sad part…..these kids!
In my heart….i’d move mountains for my kids…..
In his….he was offering to ‘sell’ them to me for 80K in the divorce…..among other things…..but that one really stands out….the offer to sell!
Kids haven’t seen spath in 2.5 years….and they are teens….they’ve all changed so much. He hasn’t had a ‘relationship’ with them since eldest was 14….he’s now 18.
Those are precious years…..all of HS…..gf’s, driving, sports, fun times….sex, open talks, hugs from a kid who outgrew his parents…..so much love he’s missed.
How can a parent NOT be a parent????
Sades’ lyrics~
“Oh child, your daddy love comes with a lifetiime guarentee”
“Even to the angels it may sound like a lie” “For you child, he has the troops and extra backups standing bye”
For you child he’s the best he can be…for you child…..
“Daddy love you……
Its’ only love, love , love….that can make you feel this way.”
LOVE???Hmmmmmmmm
We know they can’t love……our kids are their chess pieces!
Pawns…..just to play with…..and sacrafice when need be….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoHWjG6LUsA