By | October 1, 2009 137 Comments

Experiencing the impact of grief, Part 1

By Ox Drover

Many of the people who have been victims of a sociopath have commented here at Lovefraud about how much “different” breaking up with a sociopath is than a “regular” break up, how much more painful. I’ve read comments from former victims about how intense the feelings are after being conned by a sociopath whatever the relationship has been, whether family member, spouse, lover, or child.

I have also felt these same profoundly hurtful feelings as I have worked my way along the difficult and rocky road toward healing. Even though my profession was as a registered nurse practitioner, and I’ve studied “the grief process” as outlined by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, one of the people who has defined and studied “grief” for many years, knowing about something and experiencing it are two different things. However, learning about and naming some of the feelings we have as we progress through this painful period and resolve the feelings and pain of profound loss does at least let us know that what we are experiencing is expected, and though painful, is very “normal” and that it will not last forever.

What is grief?

In an article called “The agony of grief” for the magazine Utne Reader (Sept/Oct 1991), the author, Stephanie Ericsson, who had suddenly lost her beloved husband while pregnant with their first child, stated, “Grief is a tidal wave that overtakes you with unimaginable force, sweeps you up into its darkness, where you tumble and crash against unidentifiable surfaces only to be thrown out on an unknown beach, bruised, reshaped”¦.” “Grief is utter aloneness that razes the rational mind”¦.”

Just exactly what is grief, though? Most of us know that “grief” is a sadness we feel when someone we love dies, or even when we lose a beloved pet, or something in our life that we value is taken away, but grief is much more than just sadness and tears when someone we love dies. Grief is a predictable cycle of feelings we have as we resolve the loss of anything that is important to us. Grief over the loss of something or someone very important to us may actually take many months, or even years, to resolve into acceptance of that loss.

Grief that is not fully and completely resolved can last a lifetime, and cause a lifetime of continual pain. Resolving and processing the cycle of emotions caused by the loss of an important part of our lives, is a valuable addition to the healing we need to experience after the sociopath is gone.

Wikipedia defines grief as a “multi-faceted response to loss, particularly the loss of someone or something to which we have formed a bond of attachment.” The few words to describe something so profoundly emotional and deeply painful still doesn’t scratch the surface of such an important concept.

In some way, a relationship with a psychopath has hooked us so deeply, that when that relationship turns from “wonderful” into deep emotional and/or physical abuse, we are devastated, I think, more than with the loss by death of a loved one (with the exception of a suicide possibly), because we know that the loved one didn’t die to hurt us, to leave us, but left us unwillingly. Realizing that a psychopath seems to enjoy hurting us or is totally uncaring about our pain caused by their abuse is some how a deeper, more significant loss than an “ordinary” loss of something important.

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, in her 1969 book On Death and Dying, described grief as a “five step process.” Her focus was on people who knew they were terminally ill, however, later she expanded this to include the feelings of anyone experiencing a profound and deep loss.

The stages of grief

According to Kubler-Ross’s model, the five stages of grief are:

  1. Denial: The grieving person will use the temporary defense mechanism to diminish the huge loss that is being suffered. “I feel fine,” or “This isn’t really happening to me,” are some of the responses a person in this stage would feel.
  2. Anger: “Why me?” “Who do I blame?” are some of the questions the person in the second stage would ask themselves as they recognize that denial is futile and replace the denial with anger and a hyper-awareness. This stage of anger may be demonstrated by bouts of rage and anger at anyone or anything that can be “blamed” as having caused the loss that led to the grief. This is why many people become angry at the physician over the loss of their loved one, or the hospital, nursing home, etc.
  3. Bargaining: “Ill do anything ”¦ to reverse or postpone the loss.” The person grieving may at this time frantically search for some way to alleviate their suffering by regaining what was lost. Anxiety will be high.
  4. Depression and sadness: “Why bother? There’s nothing left to live for. I can’t go on.” Crying and depressed moods are the hallmark of this stage and are an important part of the process. Many people who care and attempt to be supportive of the grieving party may try to “cheer them up” in some way. Feeling, processing and experiencing the sadness is an integral part of the process though for the grieving individual.
  5. Acceptance: The grieving party comes at last to peace, acceptance and understanding of the importance of the loss.

While there is some debate about the “five stages of grief” as described by Kubler-Ross, and though each person experiences grief in a unique and individual manner, there is much commonality in our experiences. The one thing that is almost universal, however, is that the stages are not in order, but a cycle of “roller coaster” rides that repeat the up and down, and changes from one stage to another and back again.

What is the best way to support a grieving person?

Being able to verbalize our feelings and having those feelings validated by others is one of the most healing salves that can be applied to grief. Each of us must do our own grieving, but having someone to whom we can verbalize our feelings, and feel in turn that they validate our feelings as legitimate and real, is the best medicine for grief.

The person listening doesn’t have to do anything, but rather be an active listener. To be present for us. Just their presence says to the grieving, “I hear your pain, and I am sorry you are hurting.”

Not setting time limits is essential in the grief process, either for ourselves if we are grieving, or for others. Unfortunately, “bereavement leave” for most jobs is three days paid leave for the death of a spouse, child or parent.

Disenfranchised grief

“Disenfranchised grief” is the term denoting grief that is not acknowledged by society. For example, when one has had an affair, and it is discovered and broken off suddenly and the secret is kept as quiet as possible, open grieving for the loss is not acceptable. Shame and guilt contribute to the disenfranchised guilt as well and make it difficult to process.

Grief for unmarried partners in the event of the death of one of them is many times disenfranchised since the union was not a “legal” one, whether the partners were heterosexual or not.

Setting “artificial time limits” on grieving will also cause it to become disenfranchised grief, as the normal societal support network will withdraw support for the grieving individual by saying “It’s time you get on with your life and get over this.”

Not having closure is another cause for the disenfranchisement of grief.

In Part 2, we’ll explore some of the ways we can help ourselves with our own grieving process, and to be a presence for others in their grieving.

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I am grieving over the loss of everything I held dear. I have studied Elizabeth Kubler Ross and some others, but I think grieving is a very individual thing and “it takes as long as it takes. I like the “wave” analogy. Grief comes in waves. You have to ride whichever wave is coming. Sometimes we do it well, sometimes not.


thank you Oxy, for your time, your thoughts and your constant support. As usual, your post has given me much food for thought.

without LF, I could not have have come as far as I have with my grieving process.

sometimes I think that the P became a P because he experienced grief that he could not resolve as a child, a disenfranchised grief. It seems like a common thread in the P’s to believe that they have a “grievance” or “injury”. This is what I perceived in my P from the moment I met him, although he never said such a thing. This was the root of my pity for him and this is why I believe him to be dangerous.

It seems like he came to the 5th stage and instead of acceptance he chose hate for his mother and revenge. It’s too bad he didn’t have someone like LF to help him when he was a boy.

super chic

Yes, Thank You Oxy for such an insightful article! I am stuck in the wave, grieving over my choices.


This was on tonight on Snapped

Some people say they can read others by their tone , body lanuage. I am not so sure? When I watched it on TV I could just imagine that the Guy is who had everyone fooled! I think the judge got this one right this time. We will see if she gets her 3 girls back.

super chic

Easy, there is no video on the first link you posted, and IE wouldn’t display the second link. 🙁


Excellent article. I recognize all the stages as I went through them last year. Every single one. I look forward to reading part 2.


That ‘utter aloneness’ is what I’ve been feeling lately, like I’m functioning on auto pilot but that I no longer have that #1 person out there who I thought really cared and
even if we didn’t speak each day, I felt was my ‘mate’ in a way. Then last week I picked up when he called, mainly because i thought it would give me some kind of closure
to actually tell him briefly WHY I would not be speaking with him in the future (I know this goes against what you all advise but it was a personal thing and I still have some
possessions of his, etc.). At any rate, his first words were again – ‘So you can’t pick up a phone and call someone (like him) to check on me’…and I just called him on that
and said ‘why does this situation always get turned back on me? I have been sick and really didn’t feel like talking to anyone. So how ARE you?’ and of course he said
‘Terrible’ and ‘this f—ing phone’ blah blah. And I stayed calm and then he said he had to buy more minutes and he’d call me in 2 hours and that didn’t happen – it’s been several days since that call. But in the meantime, I had a day off and was paying my bills and happened to look at my satellite tv bill…lo and behold – it was rather large and I found charges from the last time he was here – he’d been at my house overnight and then part of next day while I was at work. So there were several ‘adult’ movies
and two regular ones which cost an extra $56.00! Something about that inconsiderate action, especially when he knows I’m barely making it myself financially and have
other challenges with extra travel to see my sister – I’m a pretty forgiving person but it just gave me the clarity I’ve needed – i’ve had those feelings of being ‘Punk’d” before
but this really just made me realize that I have been with someone who just does not ‘get’ it and has no impulse control if he felt he needed to watch all these at once at my
house. I admit I’d like to call him on this but I don’t think it’s worth it, I’d rather just move on – I’m not a prude but the fact he even wanted to watch those type of movies
just made me feel so alienated from him as well.

And I realize I’ve been just as guilty in having no impulse control – I just kept making wrong, ‘think I’ll feel good right now’ choices – even knowing I’d feel bad pretty soon if things played out as they usually did – how very sick of me – so with the grief, I’m doing my best to just not beat myself up. I was told I need a root canal this week as well as a crown, but thinking about what Oxy’s title says about ‘still being upright’ has to be the way to look at it. For me it’s been 7 years and I’m not ready to say it’s all been bad, all been a lie, but this latest truth is a kind of gift and in a way, I’m thankful for the real grief I’m feeling for this loss of illusion.

So please don’t be tough on me about breaking NC, I just wanted to share this, get it off my chest and perhaps someone else can benefit from seeing how dysfunctional
I let this be. The other crazy thing is – I actually gave him a ride back to where he lives and on the way back I was caught on camera speeding through freeway con-
struction zone (I was probably so deep in thought and so tired from recent trip, just wanted to get home – was actually going usual freeway speed and didn’t realize I was
even in that zone) Anyway, got notice in mail yesterday and now I owe $180.00 on that ticket. Talk about ‘stupid tax’.


Oxy, this was another one of your great articles – thanks for taking the time to express these thoughts so well. I have not looked at all the different posts and threads, am wondering how Lily is doing – really hope she is all right. Will read more and see.


No Punishment! This time , If I told you how many times it took me to Face the truth you would understand why!

Any relationship should be a partnership! To help each other, to build each other UP! not a one way street!


Listen…..don’t think for a minute that you are alone in the breaking NC…..
I went back and forth for years! YEARS!!!!
I didn’t know about the NC rule, but I have to tell you, there are things we need to see to evolve…..for some reason we all feel that ‘this’ might be different……
Eventually all of these relationships end the same….generally.
Speaking with him, then opening the cable bill…..was, i believe, a sign…..remember how I say…..everything happens for a reason???? WELL!
The traffic ticket………hmmmmm…….
Ofcourse this is all negotiable…..but I learned to listen and see these signals ‘from the universe’ or whatever…..
I find I am much better off when I pay attention to all of these types of things.
So…..what I ‘hear’ in your post is…..
YOUR LEARNING, your exploring the process and ALL OF THIS IS WONDERFUL…..
It’s growth and cause for celebration…..
You are no longer living with the blinders on!
So….I sure won’t be the one to bust your balls about breaking NC…..
I think you have and continue to learn valuable lessons for your journey out!
Good luck and stay positive….
Your doing fine!


“having someone to whom we can verbalize our feelings, and feel in turn that they validate our feelings as legitimate and real, is the best”, I have one friend who does this for me and its true


Why do we need to tell our X’s how do we feel and explain them what they have done to us? Why do we need validation from someone who made us feel like chit?
Many of us wrote/sent mails,letters. I did it, too, and than i asked myself: WHY ?
I am not sure. Can someone who wrote such mails give some sight?

Ox Drover

I haven’t talked to Lilly since yesterday morning (still didn’t have the results of angiogram) surgery was tenatively scheduled for cancer this a.m. but will wait and call out there when the time gets at least a reasonable time—will report back as soon as I know anything.

My best friend unexpectedly rolled in from Texas yesterday, a SUPRISE VISIT! I can’t believe she was able to keep the secret for so long and not tell me she was coming! I was on the phone with her and caught a glimpse of someone driving into t he yard and I said “got to go, someone came up!” She said, “It’s me, stupid!” LOL ROTFLMAO

It was just a quick trip, she and hubby were passing through, so they leave this morning.

Persephone, they will never “give you” Closure, you pretty much have to make it yourself.

Erin gave you some great advice and I second her post! I don’t think I need to boink you for breaking NC on this one either, I think you boinked yourself for that one, and if it is a lesson learned, it was worth it! ((((hugs)))))

Ox Drover

Dear ThornBud,

I think it is back to seeking “validation” for our pain, in other words, someone we love (even the one who hurt us) to validate and say “yes, I hurt you, and I am so sorry” (and mean it) To say our pain is REAL, but instead, they make our pain seem small, or our own fault, or not even real, or…they say we have hurt them, all of which makes us feel worse.

I think the desire to do this (for us) is almost universal. whatever it is that drives it, overcoming it and not contacting them is usually best. But very difficult. I do know though that NC is the worst thing we can do to them if they are still trying to use and con us, as it takes away all their power. (((hugs))))

kim frederick

I actually visited a blog for sociopaths, and a young woman was saying that even though she had no feelings for a partner, when she ended the relationship, if the partner didn’t seem sufficienly upset, and if they wouldn’t go for the “friend” card, it enraged her. She went so far as to admit that the friend card was just an attempt to keep them under her control, so she could have her way. Incredible. All the more reason to stay NC.


Erin: Thanks so much, your words make me feel better and ok with this. I know I’m finally getting my emotional ‘I.Q.’ up to speed (oops, hopefully no ticket for that…), or growing up, or ‘getting it’ myself.

Getting ready for work, thanks to everyone here, will check in later for any word of Lily – thanks Oxy for holding back the skillet. And reading Kim’s post, I know it’s part of
my own control issue to want to keep him in my life, but that is slowly ebbing away and reading here has helped me get the right focus.

Ox Drover

Have a good day persephone! It’s all part of the process, I know I thought I could FIX ANYTHING, it was a sort of arrogance on my part, but I am realizign that there are some things I CANNOT FIX, and another person is one of the things I can’t fix….I have to work on ME! I CAN FIX ME!!!!

Getting over wanting to fix them is difficult some time! I kept thinking I should find this “magic” word, phrase etc. that would “make it all better”—-and there IS NO MAGIC with them. ONLY PAIN! (((hugs))))

kim frederick

Dear Persephone, You misunderstood, I wasn’t saying YOU were doing those things…I was just commenting on how THEY operate. I think knowing this stuff helps us stay away from them, and for those of us who are angry cause we can’t have closure, its one way of feeling like we finally made our point.

No, Sweetie, I’m not here to critisize you, okay?



Don’t worry – I didn’t take wrong way, I actually just saw that what the S does, I do in a way – I want to have some control over him, which time after time has not worked.
You’re all great, see you here later – and I’d say I’m more sad than angry with him and myself – I think I know him well enough to know why he is the way he is – he’s hurtful to himself
at this point and I can help both of us by staying NC and addressing my own life.

Ox Drover


I just spoke with Lily, she is scheduled for surgery at 2 p.m. central daylight time for the bowel cancer.

She is still a bit confused about time, she was talking about what her kids did and said “yesterday” and it was actually two days ago, but that is NORMAL for her to be confused about the time, so I am not concerned about that.

However, she is SEVERELY depressed and at one point said “I don’t want to survive the surgery”—the staff of the hospital is aware of this, so PLEASE PRAY FOR HER PEACE OF MIND, whatever happens.

I gave her all the messages from all of you and assured her that we are praying for her, and her faith in God is at least still strong, but giving up hope at this point (for her children) and the betrayal that they did of telling her X (who is probably jumping up and down with glee as if she dies, he can stop paying her part of his retirement) has really depressed her and given her emotional injury.

By the end of the call she sounded better and stronger than at the first of the call. Thank you all for caring! Love, (((hugs))) and prayers Oxy


Hi LF….I’m in need of inspiration! I don’t know why I did it… stupid of me. I still have the pw to his phone bill (from the days I paid it for him). I looked at his bill and saw ALL of his calls and texts to her (the one he was screwing behind my back)! It just hurts so bad to see all the time he spends talking to her when he never had time for me. He used to have time for me …..then she came along. I was totally removed! Like a piece of trash….so easy to throw away. I saw the date of the last time he was with me (a little over a month ago). He was with me and calling her the next day….and ignoring me as if I didn’t exist!!!! I’m assuming he only came to me bc they had a disagreement or he was mad at her. He told me once that when he was mad at his other girlfriend, he would go to “a different” old girlfriend just to “knock his rocks”! Can you believe it? HELLO big red flag – RIGHT?? I’ve been doing so good and now TODAY! If anyone can give a helping word I’d be so appreciative! 🙁


Every time I SEE it (ie things like the phone bill)….it brings all of the horrible feelings back. My stomach gets sick and I feel like throwing up. He’s not attractive to me any longer and I’d never take him back… WHY does it hurt so bad?


Sarasims, BLESS YOUR SOUL that you got that the liar, cheat, manipulating, selfish SOB is out of your life. Don’t view others that are currently in his life as winners. Look at all people that are currently in his life as his next VICTIM. This guy is NO prize. He’s a spoiled, selfish, self centered brat that will smile and talk so sweetly while he knows he’s conning everyone so that his skanky butt can get what he wants, any time he wants, from any person (cough victim) he wants. Look at her for what she truly is … his current victim that is living his lie for as long as he can keep her in the dark with his lies and deception.

Feel sorry for her or any person that comes in his space (man or woman) … for she too will soon be blogging on this site asking “what happened”.

Peace to your heart and soul as you heal from being manipulated by a master manipulator like him. HE IS THE LIE … LIE … LIE in life.


Thank you Wini! I really needed a friend right now … and you are here! Sounds like you know him personally….ha! You know, when I realized how he operated, what he wanted from me, I almost “compromised my morals” just to keep him and make him happy. Until I shook myself and said…..HELLO!…..he is disgusting! What are you doing to yourself?? We went from a “so-called” loving couple to him asking me a few months ago to be his “sex partner”…..just someone to F**K…and I was so desperate to feel his love that I ALMOST gave in. I guess in a way I did by being with him the most recent times that I have. It’s just disgusting!!! But I think the one he’s with now IS an SP also… I think they connect well. That’s why he will spend hours and hours talking to her. She too is off screwing other men and that drives him crazy….he told me so. Guess I should look at it as a blessing …..he’s getting a taste of his own medicine!

At the moment – it just hurts like HELL!


Sarasims, the reason you get sick to your stomach is because you bought into all his lies, hook, line and sinker. He lied that he was a decent man. He’s not. He lied that he loved you. He does not. He promised he’d pay his bills. Another lie. He promised to be faithful. Another lie. He promised, promised, promised. Everything he told you from hello to goodbye is a lie. Why? That’s what selfish people do to get their way in life. Oh, those few nice things he did at the beginning of your relationship … that’s called the hook to catch his fish (you are the fish by the way).

You need to see through the lies and view the real BAD MAN that stood before you. BAD PEOPLE don’t come with fangs that drip blood, have a horrible disfigured face and body … and odor so bad you can’t get close for fear of heaving. BAD people smile to your face and talking so sweetly, you seemed you died and went to heaven. What did you ever do to deserve such a great guy. That’s their hook … they put their best foot forward and shower you with compliments and attention … all to have you focus on that illusion while they do what they came in your life to do … take you (and others) for what they can get as long as they can get you to stay focused on the illusion.


P.S. They (these men and women) should all get an academy award for all their acting and DRAMA they do to others lives.

Repeat after me … HE IS SELFISH, SELF CENTERED, SELF ABSORBED, LIAR, THIEF, CHEAT AND CON. Any time you waste your precious tears to flow down your face over this BAD GUY … remember this e-mail.


Sara I know it hurt like hell I’m feeling your pain please stay strong!!!!!!You give me strength. I really don’t know your situtation because I’m new here, but from reading what you’ve said he is an asshole. I’m so sorry that he’s hurting your feelings, keep your head up he will get what’s coming to him. These men are evil and wicked to treat good woman the way they do.


Sarasims, you hurt like hell because YOU CAN FEEL. That’s what makes us whole people. “They” on the other hand don’t feel a thing, except for frustration. When they cry, it’s just a ploy to make you feel sorry for them. A ploy of manipulation again and again and again. Number 1 rule about “them” … it’s all about them. There is no one else in life except for them, them, them.

As far as the new woman in his life and her games and his. Sit back, the two users will do each other in. She will get over on him and he back on her …

I’d wished they’d all get together with kindred spirits so they can all do each other in. Unfortunately, this will only go on for a while … they will both retreat and go looking for other innocent victims to get their way. Because that’s what they are all about … getting their own way in life.

Whatever you do … don’t answer the phone, e-mails, the door or see him in any way, shape or form. Go through your grieving and get him out of your life for good…. because, no matter how low he went the first round with you … he will always go lower the next time around. STOP him and don’t give him this chance. Be strong … because he will come on strong … so sweet, so nice, so caring … stand on your feet and tell this vampire to go. Actually, don’t even speak … no use wasting any of your precious words … just turn on your heels and walk away … as far away as possible. That’s the only dance we should all learn … turning on our heels and walking away. Let him guess what you have to say.



I am sorry you are hurting…..
Don’t allow your pain to take you down today!!!

You read the phone bill for confirmation… now have the confirmation.
Bottome line….it is what it is!
It’s not You….IT”S HIM.
Do not take it personal……anything he say’s, does or looks like!
You are doing and feeling everything you are, so you can heal… is a process and you must feel the process.
I wish I had an ‘easy’ button for you…..but it doesn’t exist!
With each tear, you are growing, realizing, learning and becoming aware of your own boundaries.
THis is good….not bad…..BUT YES, it does hurt like hell!

Re: HER…I’ts not about Her either…it’s about HIM… know the reality…..he even confirmed his own behaviors you see currently with his words to you. Don’t dwell or fantasize that she is any different than you….she is not…..she only the current, latest supply….but there are others lined up…..and more after that.
I agree….it only ecourages more future LF members!
Like wini posted….she is the current victim…..
he could be with the queen of sheeba…….and he will continue to be the down and dirty, asswipe of a sociopath that he is!
His world is all about HIM, HIM, HIM…..and ONLY HIM!

Okay girl….you know what he is doing…..NOW ITS TIME FOR YOU….look in that mirror and see the beautiful Sarasims…..go out and do something nice for yourself today…..regroup your self worth and know you are on your way to conquering your world!
You are worthy, beautiful and aware….
Make it about YOU now!
Stay strong and try to change your tears to laughter…..


Wini I will remember this email very well put because I dealing with a SP also thats a very BAD person I refuse to call him a man because a real man wouldna had done what he’s done to me.


Luv716, yes, we need a simple mantra to repeat to ourselves. How about “_______ (name of the person) IS A SELFISH LIAR”.

That should do it. (SMILE).


Thank you for the Lily update…..
It is heartwrenching to know she is in such poor heath and facing these challenges both emotionally and physically!
By my calculations she is an hour away from the surgery.
It is just so confusing to wrap my arms around why these things happen……some are clear to me, some become clear….
I think we all should have a licence for compassion at least in dire medical situations……
But not all humans feel this way…..
I have lived it, others here have lived it and lily is living it and I hope she can muster the internal strength to continue her fight!
People just shouldn’t be allowed to ‘leave’ this world alone!
I know I had wished, deep down, I wouldn’t survive……at times…..THANK GOD I DID!
I knew there was more work to do…..I was just downtrodden and beat up……and I knew I had a mountain to climb…barefoot!
This is what taught me……the clock doesn’t stop ticking for any of us…..

Oxy, thanks for being such a support to Lily, you are a wonderful person with a huge heart! You are a true friend in the realest sense!

I know you will keep us posted….THANK YOU!


There is so much wisdom, insight, and compassion on this site, it really warms my heart. You guys are all just so amazing! I appreciate each and every one of these posts.

Sarasims, I’m so very sorry about your pain. This is such a good place to come to heal; the support is so strengthening. And for me, it really does help to understand what happened; the confusion can be very hard to deal with. As someone posted earlier, maybe somebody remembers who, it’s so painful to be constantly thinking “Why on Earth would he . . . ?” “How COULD he . . . ?” Starting to understand the psychology behind this depravity does help a lot.

Wini, Erin, you guys so totally rock.

As do you, Oxy! Terrific post with so much to ponder.

Holding out good thoughts for Lily. I can’t believe she had to deal with that terrible psychological blow before her surgery. She sure deserves a break and some happiness.


To ThornBud, who says: Why do we need to tell our X’s how do we feel and explain them what they have done to us? Why do we need validation from someone who made us feel like chit? Many of us wrote/sent mails,letters. I did it, too, and than i asked myself: WHY? I am not sure. Can someone who wrote such mails give some sight?

I think it’s a need for expression — part of the healing process toward accepting/understanding reality — so that we don’t go crazy by holding everything in that happened to us. It can be helpful to vent (whether by phone or email) even when one does not get validation from the person who did harm. I think their responses also help us to see their flawed approach/views more objectively.

When someone can deny/pretend to have done nothing, it provides insight into who they are and helps me appreciate that I can and have a right to make a judgment about the person and situation without needing their approval/understanding. For me, at least, verbally getting it out of my system and directing the anger toward the person who caused me harm (rather than dump on someone innocent) felt like giving back the negativity to the person who tried to make me “own” their shit.

As a result of rejecting ownership for someone else’s behavior, I was able to become clearer about what I needed to do to take care of myself/ to own my part in allowing boundary violations. And in seeing the lack of perspective/decency of the manipulator/abuser, it also helped me to lose respect for the individual and detach more from a person who could not “own” their own bullshit.


Wini – again, thank you for your words of wisdom and support. Some days it all seems so crystal clear….others (like today) a big blur. I NOW know what he did to me and the why…..of course, I know too! Bc of who he is.

When he wanted to “do away” with me the first time, he had HER call me and threaten me. She told me that “he could not live without her….that he NEEDED her and no longer wanted me…..but when they fought or she got tired of him…..she didn’t care who he F**KED and knew he would probably come back to me”. I couldn’t believe the words I was hearing. I was blown away that people could live their lives like that. And most of the time he was with me….that’s exactly how HE was living his life. And even though I had this sick to my stomach feeling it was going on…..I never wanted to believe it. But it was true and very real.

And EVERY time I think our relationship has sunk to the lowest rung possible, and that I will NEVER hear from him again, I do. Part of me has always wanted that but now, I just want to stop FEELING. I want this pain in my stomach to go away. I want the tears that I’m crying (today…for the first time in about two weeks) to go away forever. I know I can make that choice but from here to there seems like a neverending road.

Ox Drover

I think she is just TIRED, from 42 years with that creep she was married to, and 7 years of living on her own, trying to hope that he kids would one day see (or care about) the TRUTH.

NOT BEING VALIDATED makes our grief so much worse, but we must learn to VALIDATE ourselves even if no one else does. BUT IT IS SO DIFFICULT to do so! It takes a certain amount of arrogance I think to be ABLE to validate yourself when “all the world” is against you—i.e. no one else shares your ‘reality” and you begin to wonder if you are crazy after all.

Yep, about 1 hour from now is the surgery so I imagine she is being prepped for the surgery now…

Skippy, thanks! Hope my insights help, learning about grief doesn’t keep us from experiencing it, but I think it does make it easier if we have a “name” to what we are feeling and especially the “roller coaster” part. Keep on trucking! (((Hugs))) and Prayers for us all and for Lily!

Ox Drover

Dear Sara,

I can relate to the wanting the pain to stop and to not feel, but unfortunately we must go through our pain, but it WILL stop if we work at it.

Whatever you do, do not let him back in, and start to look at when you are thinking about him—instead of focusing on how much YOU hurt, look at the things he has done TO HURT YOU. Make a list of the things he has done to hurt you, and the pain will start to lessen.

WHY on earth would you want someone who deliberately hurts you in your life? Make yourself dislike him, it will help I hope. ((((hugs))))


Luv – you are awesome! Thanks for sharing your strength and words!! I know we are going through this together – I feel from your posts (and as we talked yesterday) that we are about in the same place in healing. We can make it – I know! But it really helps to see your words – esp today. Yes, he is the biggest asshole you can imagine. I know his day will come – I just wish it would be sooner than later. The one he is with now is as evil as he…..but there are others he hurt that did not deserve it and there will be more like you and me that he will hurt. I just wish I could warn them all!


Telephone bills – i am jumping at the very thought! He used to tell me he is not calling me (we were in different countries) cz he cant afford international calls, and his mobile doesnt support international calls. I bought him new mobile and payed his old bills, and supported him in paying new bills. NOTHING changed! I got to know that he made 300$ phone bill he made by phone sex which i payed! Can u imagine how it made me feel? I was working day and night to earn that money, in return i did not get one single sms.
He used to say he needs internet for work and asked me to borrow him money to pay it. I landed that money and saw that over just one month his friends list grew for more than 200 contacts. Not to mention he never payed it back


Dear Oxy, please hold Lily for all of us! Sometimes i am thinking that she took on herself all our pain, and it made her ill. Stress is huge trigger for terrible deseases, it is a price our body has to pay for our empathy. What happened to Lily could happen to every one of us. I believe that God will have mercy and that Lily’s condition is warning to all of us to run away from those bastards.
To all: i would like to share this with u:
God protect and save.
Lets pray for Lily and for our well being!


yep, mine had to use 3000 minutes every month. At first it was because he just can’t stand to be alone, but when he saw how it bothered me to pay such high bills, he just used it as a way to make me sick.


Erin…you are my idol (and many others here too!)….you ARE so STRONG and DETERMINEd in your thinking!! In the knowledge you have! And the way you seem to make it work for you! I hope that one day I too can be in a place like you. I’ve read many of your posts and you continually encourage those newbies like me and with you we couldn’t make it. Today is the first day in many (since being here at LF) that I’ve shed a tear. And I realize that I did it to myself. Why do what I know is going to hurt? For confirmation – yes. But I know that time and time again it will hurt. I guess what I really wanted to know is if he was still with her – while at the same time he was trying to be with me. And he WAS. When he comes back he tells me how very sorry he is. The last time he (in August) he said, “I was lost, confused….but I need you so badly, I miss you sooooo badly” He hugged me and wouldn’t let go. He told me that “he was back – the real him that I knew before”. I told him that I remembered him once telling me that “he would never do anything to hurt me” and his response was “and I never will”. Then after falling for all that bs and allowing him to sucker me back into bed he looked at me (during the act) and said “please tell me you never want this to end”…….how can someone REALLY do and say all those things then a week later tell you “i’ll call you when I can call you, don’t call me” and then tell you that you are crazy and to leave them alone forever! HOW CAN SOMEONE LIKE THAT REALLY EXIST??? ITS JUST NOT RIGHT!




Sarasims, I’m so sorry you experienced that. what he said (during the act) was just him living out his fantasy. Like someone who might say, “talk dirty to me”. Except his fantasy is controlling your emotions.

Thornbud, thanks for the link, I’m definitely an intuitive empath: I was always told I was too sensitive, I have to be alone to recharge, and I absolutely PANIC at the thought of not having my car near by.


OxDrover, you too are one of my idols…..I want to just go to sleep and wake up when I’m where you are!!! Your posts are full of wisdom and help me put things into perspective. Today, I did this to myself…..but I really want to be where I don’t care to look. Don’t care what he’s doing or who he’s talking to. My mind is starting to clear…at least every waking moment is no longer dedicated to thoughts of him. But I’m so awaiting the day to stand in your shoes….helping others to see the path to recovery. You all are so important in my life right now…..this is my safe place.

Ox Drover

Dear Sara,

How can someone like that exist?
1. Because he has no conscience
2. because he can not love
3. because he will say whatever he has to to get laid
4. because you mean nothing to him
5. because he enjoys rubbing your nose in his not caring
6. because, because,. because there is evil in the world.

It’s not right!

It is NOT fair, it is not right, but IT IS.

YOU DESERVE BETTER, but he will treat you that way as long as you allow it. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN LIFE, take it back from him! He is NOT worth the dirt under your pinky nail.


Ox Drover

Dear Sara,

I think we posted right over each other! (((hugs)))) I’m glad that my words help you, but sweetie, don’t put me up on a pedestal cause I slip and fall on my face (or other parts of my body) more often than I like and it is a STEP process….two steps forward and 1 or 2 back, even sometimes 3 backwards, but keep on the ROAD to healing. It’s a journey and by holding hands, by encouraging others even when we ourselves are feeling down, we can get there—-don’t give up!!! That’s the main thing, DON’T GIVE UP!!! Stay here and read and read the old archived articles, there is so much wisdom in them and healing salve! (((hugs))))


OxDrover, I know your right. And getting my heart to agree with my head will be my victory.

The last thing I heard from him (as every time) was to leave him the F alone (bc I actually expected a relationship after being intimate….imagine that??)…..I never expect to hear from him again, but so far he eventually finds a way to contact me.

Whether he’ll ever contact me again after the last time remains to be seen…..but I’m here and reading all these books and LF posts and articles bc I want to be prepared. I want to be STRONG and never look back.

Ox Drover

Dear Sara,

YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER IF HE CONTACTS YOU OR NOT, you can A) not answer the phone B) block his calls to your phone C) not answer the door/email/text etc.

He only has control if YOU give it to him. I imagine he WILL contact you the next time he wants a “booty call” cause he is mad at her/or she him….just think of how mad he will be if he can’t get through to you? If YOU have taken control of yourself away from HIM? Oh, my gosh! HOW DARE YOU TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE—he is supposed to have that, right? LOL (((Hugs))) and stay strong, sweetie, you can do it!!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Sara,

Next time with the next guy, get the relationship FIRST….or there IS NO INTIMACY, just sex (as far as the Ps are concerned).

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