By | January 9, 2012 81 Comments

Food for thought: I am fishead movie

It’s an ambitious project—attempting to explain psychopaths in global leadership positions, a possible cause of what looks like psychopathic behavior, and what to do about it all. This is the documentary film, I am <fishead(, produced and directed by Misha Votruba and Vaclav Dejcmar.

Here’s a clip, featuring Dr. Robert Hare, the guru of psychopathy:

Corporate psychopaths

Fishead is divided into three parts. Part 1 is about psychopaths, specifically corporate psychopaths, who are blamed for the global financial meltdown that began in 2008. This is probably true, although the only individual named is Bernie Madoff.

The authors of Snakes in Suits, Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak, explain psychopathy, and how psychopaths in business claw and backstab their way to the top of organizations. Hare and Babiak certainly know their stuff, and you’ll recognize their descriptions of psychopathic behavior.

But then Hare and Babiak start talking about the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths. This is a matter of debate and disagreement in the mental health field, so essentially they are expressing their opinions and preferences, not fact. Hare mentions that the film Reservoir Dogs highlights the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths—apparently one kills because he has to and another kills because he likes it. But Hare didn’t specify which was which, and I wasn’t sure. My contention, of course, is that from the point of view of the dead guy, it doesn’t matter.


Part 2 of Fishead goes off in a different direction. It’s about “happy pills—”antidepressants. As you watch, you may wonder if the filmmakers are claiming that antidepressants cause psychopathy, but they don’t quite go that far. Here’s what they write:

The second part of the film touches on how, for a small number of people, overuse of antidepressants can result in behaviors that appear to mimic some psychopathic features. Although overuse of these medications will not produce psychopathy, they may stifle emotion and decrease the user’s ability to feel empathy.

Actually, I think the real problem with antidepressants may not be that it makes users behave in sociopathic ways, but rather, antidepressants enable victims to tolerate sociopathic behavior in others.

For example, in my upcoming book, Red Flags of Lovefraud, I have a chapter on protecting yourself from predators. In the Internet survey that Lovefraud conducted last year, we asked if people involved in romantic relationships with sociopaths had an intuition or gut feeling early on that something was wrong. A whopping 71 percent of respondents answered yes. And 40 percent ignored their intuition.

Why? One woman explained:

I ignored it because I loved him. After a time he convinced me there was something wrong with ME and convinced me to go on antidepressants. The drugs mellowed me and I lost that feeling.

I’ve heard stories like this one many times—sociopaths are causing distress and to cope with it, the victims go on drugs. This can be the problem with antidepressants. We are upset because something is WRONG! If we no longer feel upset, we don’t try to change what is WRONG!


The third part of the documentary asks the question, “So what do we do about all of this?”

Fishead talks about the work of Dr. Stanley Milgram, who conducted numerous famous experiments showing that most people will administer electric shocks to others, even though they know the person is being hurt, if they are directed to do it by someone in authority. But it points out an interesting experiment that is not as well known. Dr. Milgram also found that if the experiment subjects first saw someone refuse to administer the shocks, they were much more likely to refuse as well.

The point is that when people stand up to authority, or evil, it gives others the courage to stand up as well. In fact, the filmmakers say it only takes 5 percent of the people in a group to behave differently for the entire group to be influenced.

Food for thought

I am <fishead( is a well-made film. Artistically, it has an art-house feel to it, with stark backdrops for the guest expert interviews and clever animation. And, the film is narrated by the actor Peter Coyote.

Although I don’t agree with all the points, the film does a good job of drawing attention to what is probably the biggest hidden problem facing our society: the outsized damage caused by psychopaths (sociopaths). And it challenges us: What are we going to do about it?

For more about the movie, visit the website:

You can watch the movie on the Internet—the length is 1 hour, 17 minutes. Just click the “where to see” link, and email the producers to get your free password.

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Ox Drover

I will have to go to a Starbucks, but I want to see this movie.

As for Dr. Hare’s differences between a Psycho- and a socio-path (and I think the man is a genius, don’t get me wrong) is because one HAS to kill and the other ENJOYS killing….I think that is splitting hairs, just as not all “depressed” people are depressed exactly the same way it doesn’t mean we need to split hairs on calling the patients d-pressed and e-pressed LOL

There needs to be SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT between professionals on the NAME FOR THIS DISORDER….as it is right now, the public has NOT GOT A CLUE what a psycho- socio-path or ANTI-SOCIAL personality disorder. Frankly the last one sounds like a guy who is a HERMIT to me and I am somewhat “trained” in psychology. LOL

I WILL do what I have to to see this movie though. Thanks Donna.


I loved this movie! It is fantastic to get the names of the disorder “out there”. Most people have NO idea they have ever met a psychopath and prefer to not even think about the possibility.
I didn’t agree with everything in the movie, either, but I thought it was very good for “challenging our thinking” and something to get discussions going. The only problems is, it is hard to get people to watch something that long because they are used to watching “clips” instead of a movie over one hour long. One night , we had a “girls night out” with some friends and snacks and drinks and watched the movie on a friend’s TV. It was an idea I would like to share and see if you can get other people to watch it with you!


emailing to get the password is slow, a pain in the butt. so here it is: fhmovie -all lower case letters.

GREAT movie, makes ya think and more important, makes ya ADAMENT to be one of the 5%!


I saw the movie and enjoyed it. It was informative. Oxy, I hope you get to watch it soon.


Yes, the movie is excellent and gives us more validation and not just from one anothers experiences, but from a scientific perception. It helps a lot when you change your whole perception of the experience. When you see it for what it really is and recognize that the only sensible thing to do is to sever yourself from the environment for your own safety, psychologically or otherwise.

I think this movie should be shown in all high school health classes across the United States and that we owe it to our children and our children’s children to make this recognizable to those we love.

If we take our bad experience and grab a hold of it and pull it to a complete stop and redirect all this negative energy we have expended thus far on these cold people, just think of all the good we could achieve in the world with the positivity! Perhaps it would become so positive, these pathetic souls would not have room to flourish among us.




thank you for writing about our film on your blog. We appreciate it very much.

I want to invite all viewers of the film to become fans on facebook and stay connected.

I agree with KatyDid that emailing for the password is inconvenient. We have a standing agreement with some film festivals and global distributors. We agreed to limit the free spread of the film on the internet in exchange for the opportunity to be shown at their venues.

On the other hand we are glad that so many people have seen I am <fishead( "unofficially" and found the experience worthwhile.

Misha V.


Thank you for your work spreading the news about psychopaths. Nothing could be more important.

I wish you would make this film available to the Occupy Wall street Movement. They seem unaware that they are fighting psychopaths, consequently, they don’t know how to go about winning. One of the most important things to know about winning against spaths, is that you CANNOT GIVE THEM DRAMA. Yet, that is exactly what the occupy movement brings to the table. A strategy for dealing with the spath has to include a coordinated effort AGAINST FEEDING THEM OUR EMOTIONS.


OH Wow. A msg from Misha.

I’d love to know what inspired them to make this particular movie.
And has it gone viral like I’d hope? Are they able to track geographic viewing, who/where it’s watched most?
Maybe this movie will make a difference in this indifferent world? … encouraging people to make the decision to BE one of the 5% b/c they Won’t be alone.

Ox Drover

Dupey, I do intend to watch this movie, but I will have to go to a wi-fi spot in order to watch it.

Today was a REALLY DIFFICULT DAY for me today…my son D and I went to town and on the way out of town we stopped by this display of “yard art” which was cast aluminum animals (llife sized buffalos, elk, deer, horses, etc. and weren’t planning to buy, but just walk around and look….and I glanced up in time to see the man who was the pilot that killed my husband, and he is also the father of the psychopathic girl that my son D was engaged to, and is married to a “card carrying” psychopathic wife….who is the “county punch board” and every one including him knows it but he stays anyway. He is also unethical and very greedy and after his incompetence killed my husband, he tried to cheat me out of a few thousand dollars that he owed me, admitted he owed me, had plenty of money with which to pay me, but tried to cheat me out of it. Fortunately, he was not able to because even then, I wasn’t a complete fool.

Before running into this jerk and his jerket wife, I had been to the taxidermy store where the guy had ruined a long-haired Scottish Highland cow hide I had sent to be tanned (over two years ago and am just now getting back) and he tried to blame me for the hair slippage and the large bald spots on the hide….when you don’t want to take responsibility for the bad quality of your work, blame the customer. If that dog won’t hunt, you tell the customer that your mother had to pay for the hides being shipped and tanned and that she is now out all this money. That dog wouldn’t hunt either. I didn’t pay for the hide and told him to stick it. Unfortunately, I still have two hides in process and a steer head, so not sure what will happen with all that.


Dearest Oxy,
I can’t imagine your heart right now. Well, can a little b/c the mom in me makes me want to ROAR up on the MFr for messing with you. But I know it’s a lot more than that. I wish I were nearby so I could run over and be there for you face to face. It’s late so I hope you see this post and that you remember, you are not alone.

With all my best care and concern,


Ox: (((sorry you had a bad day)))
I hope the Angels will bring you a better tomorrow, Dear…

You aren’t alone, like KatyDid says…


Ox Drover

Dear Katy and Dupey,

Yep, I know I am NOT “alone” and tomorrow will be a better day, it was just sort of a SHOCK to run into the guy. I hadn’t thought of him in a long time. Heck hadn’t seen or talked to him since June of 2005, that’s a long time really. I know he didn’t “mean” to crash the plane, it was sheer incompetence, he FROZE out of fear….but you know, the trying to cheat me out of a few thousand bucks and asking me (when I asked him to pay me) “Well, what do you need it for?” DUH? it was my money, I didn’t have to tell him what I NEEDED IT FOR.

I know I need to get my shiat all in one sock and not let this bring up bad memories and bad feelings on my part, so thanks guys, it is now my responsibility to get my self back in line! (((hugs)) and my thanks. Love Oxy


Ox: one day at a time…….
So sorry but you are right: tomorrow WILL be a better day!
I can imagine what a shock for you and then the rudeness!!!!!!
OMG: I thought “I” was the only person who ran into those kind of people. What an inconsiderate JERKAZOID.

You got it going on and together, Ox, just need to put it all in one sock, like you said…me too! It’s coming fast now. The chapters in the book are whizzing by like the wind is blowing the pages…hard to recall details much anymore…this is good…times scars over the hurts…stops the bleed.

Don’t make me get out the frying pan, Ox…
You have helped me more than you will ever know…

Love ya lots ~ what does hens say? — “Big girl britches..”
hahahaha Yah, I tell myself that all the time now. Makes me laugh every time, too.

Sweetest of dreams, Dear Ox…
Tomorrow is another day…

Good Night.


“What do you need it for?”
that’s classic spath. CLASSIC.

years ago, my spath bro (who lives in my parents basement, drinks, watches porn and online gambling and has kicked kittens to death) was looking for a job. He said he found one but would need new shoes in order to get it. I had no money, but I had a credit card, so I offered to pay for his shoes as long as he paid me back.

I drove 80 miles EACH WAY. 160 miles round trip, to pick him up and take him to the shoe store and buy his shoes. We parked far from the store. As we were walking back, a homeless drug addicted woman asked for money. He had $1.25 on him. He began to give it to her…. I freaked out! I tried to stop him. “Rick what the fuck are you doing? I need that money too!” The homeless bitch began to abuse me for attempting to block access to the $1.25. They both pushed me out of the way. He gave her what she wanted. I was flabbergasted. BUT STILL I DIDN’T UNDERSTAND.

Fast forward about a year or two. I asked Rick to repay me for the shoes I bought him. His response? Are you ready? …..


“Do you have a receipt?” He asked.


Luckily, I DID have a receipt.

Any questions as to whether my brother is a spath?

Edit: In case anyone gets the wrong idea about my brother: he has a VERY high IQ, was near the top of his class and a spelling bee champion. Spaths keep you confused because nothing they do makes sense – until you understand what an emotional vampire is.


Hi Donna,

I saw this and felt very critical of it. I emailed one of the contact to express my thoughts. Here is part of what I said:

I am very familiar with exploitive personality disorders. I learned the hard way about 7 years ago when I became romantically involved with one of these characters. This experience definately changed my life and the way I see the world. In the aftermath, I spent all my free time, for a couple of years, reading about the topic. And eventually, I decided to enroll in Grad School because of it. I also work in Mental Health already.

I have read the Robert Hare books and I am familier with several of the other books mentioned. Currently, I am reading for a class. In class, we have discussed the ramifications of these kinds of drugs on inividuals and society. But still, somehow, you lost me when the movie started talking about Prozac. Are you saying we will all turn into Psychopaths because of Prozac? Or are you saying we will all get taken advantage of by Psychopaths because too many people take Prozac?

At the beginning of the movie, I was happy to see an attempt to illustrate and explain a sociopath and a psychopath. As your clips show from street side interviews, the average person does not know. But, as you were trying to explain that Sociopaths and Psychopaths are not all murders and killers, you had the red and black cartoon icons showing over and over symbolic violent attacks (like blowing the head off). I felt this was a confusing message.

After that, I felt like the movie went all over the place and for me, it did not bring home a clear message and it was unclear what you (whomever you are) really cared about most.

So, if we all stop taking Prozac and be kind to our neighbor, what? There will be no psychopaths to hurt people? Psychopaths will not be able to hurt people? People can band together and stop psychopaths?

This just went all over the place for me.

I took the time to comment on this movie because I think that educating people about damaging exploitive people is very important and it something I feel very passionate about. This movie started out explaining a problem but then it lost track and went all over the place. I still thought there were some good parts too it but it definately did not go in the direction I was expecting.

I know a sociopath or psychopath (or narcissist or borderline) when I interact with one. Just like Dr. Hare, maybe not right away, but I do know the behaviors and in time, I can tell when something isn’t right. However, I don’t know if this movie will help the average person very much to understand the problem. Perhaps that was not your intent. I guess that is what I was hoping for.

Thanks for sharing your movie. I will still recommend that people watch it but I was disappointed and confused by the intent of the movie.


yah…emotional vampire…


I am just curious what others thought of this movie and if anyone understands what I am saying about it? Or is it just me?


I think this movie was good, but it could have been better. I wanted there to be more info about sociopaths. It seemed a bit thin, and then the end of the movie sort of muddled the message, I thought. But any movie that spreads any awareness at all is a positive thing, IMHO.


I take Prozac. I haven’t seen the movie, but I’m concerned that I am not well enough or far enough along in my recovery from a psychopath to NOT be influenced against taking antidepressants. In my case, as I believe is true in every case since we are all different, I needed to be on antidepressants because I am DEPRESSED. Not because I wanted to turn into a robot and not feel any emotion. I didn’t get on them to escape memories, regret and guilt, or growth and learning.
I was depressed before ever meeting “IT” (ex psychopath). Perhaps it is in some people depression without treatment that ALLOWS them to become victims of psychopaths.
A year ago I had heart surgery, my heart had to be shocked on two
different occasions before that and it was due IMHO to stress caused by
the psychopath, even though IT had been out of my life for a couple of years. I was not healing from that massive nightmare properly and I
truly believe my heart couldn’t take the heavy burden anymore. After myCoupons surgery I was put on 20mg Prozac and have been doing a little better. I had it increased to 40mg in Nov 2011 because I felt I needed to find the right dose for me and this has proven to be it. That was one month before “discovering” by the grace of God that the reason IT was that way was because IT was a psychopath. Since then I have dove head first into every but of information I can read on the subject. I have even tried to stay off the blog comments so I can concentrate more on reading all the wonderfully informative articles, thanks to Oxy’s suggestion. But this is a subject I feel strongly about and must comment.
I know I should watch the movie first before finding any fault with it and I would LOVE to watch a documentary film on psychopathy instead of the usual Hollywood film that depicts psychopaths as one of the main characters, however, I don’t want to be dissuaded from taking Prozac. I believe in my case, it has helped me much more than hindered me. I took a different type of antidepressant before and it was awful. This one worked for my chemical make up and my mother has been on it a lot longer than me (my doctor said Prozac works on me because it works on my mother). Without it I’m not sure I would have had a clear enough mind to research so much and absorb the info I have on psychopaths.
Anyway, I would suggest deciding for yourself if something works for you before letting anybody else influence you. It might be more damaging to
get off antidepressants in the long run. I have not noticed at all, any lack of empathy, none whatsoever. Nor has my judgment seem clouded. But
what I have noticed is that I don’t get worked up on a scary out of control rollercoaster of anxiety, anger, and hopelessness. On Prozac my negative emotions are more like a kiddie ride.
I’d love to take my own advice about deciding for myself that my
medication works for me and doesn’t turn me into a psychopath or a victim of one again. Prozac has been one of many tools I’ve had to use in my healing process. I just don’t think I’m far enough along to be able to handle being told that what I have done so far to help me recover is bad for me or will inevitably make me do the wrong thing, much less turn all of society into psychopaths. I think I will stay on track and read what I can and skip over the stuff the I don’t believe is necessarily healthy for me personally. We are all different, yes, and we have to recover in healthy ways. If antidepressants made me behave, think, or feel in any way more negative than I started out feeling before taking them I would have stopped months ago.
Ugh, sorry to get in my soapbox and go on for so ling. But just like I was embarrassed and ashamed to admit I was duped by a psychopath, I was also embarrassed and ashamed to admit to anyone I was taking Prozac. Enough of that, I am not going to hide anymore. That’s what psychopaths do.


Woundlicker and AlohaTraveler
I thought the part of the movie discussing antidepressants was about the ABUSE of antidepressants. The movie made a very good point with their example of the person passing out valium so that people would mellow out and not feel sad AT A FUNERAL.

Like many who end up here on LF, the trauma from my years with my X! husband caused severe stress and years of insomnia, like the fright in me was switched on and I could not switch it off. I was prescribed an antianxiety med. Your prescription and mine were appropriate. Taking an anti in order to chill is NOT.

I will say my X! MIL was a prozac B*. If her personality was the chilled version, God help us for what she was like without it. BUT… I had a problem with her use of Prozac. She had not seen a doctor in the last FIVE years. That’s a bigtime drug and that means she was not being monitored at all. She may have needed it in the beginning, but it wasn’t working for her in all the years I knew her and I was amazed she continued to receive refills year after year. Her drug use was another example of inappropriate ABUSE of Prozac.

Yes the movie takes to task the ABUSE of drugs, but does not say NO ONE should take them. I am sure you are able to discern the difference. Please don’t let this one segment put you off.

I took the msg of the movie to be that evil is running rampant and we as solo people feel helpless to stop it. But we aren’t solo, we’re silent. And that it only takes 5% to shift society from complacency to accountability. It’s up to us to decide if we want to be one of the 5% and stop the madness…. or will we decide to think things “aren’t that bad” after all?

Who better to stand up and be one of the 5% than those of us who KNOW the NIGHTMARE?


About Prozac,

One of the arguements in Listening to Prozac is that it changes people’s personalities. I did not finish the book. It was boring as heck but I guess I will get around to it. It’s still on my bedside table.

Another good read is “Crazy Like Us.” This is an interesting book if you are working in Mental Health. It is not about personality disorders.



I loved the first part of the movie, and the last part about how taking a stand about what you know is right can have an influence.

I agree that the comic-type guys massacring the other in a “psycho” way stood opposite the message of that of a psychopath being unrecognizable, and more do not murder than not… although they could, even when they are not corporate psychopaths.

The second part about the anti-depressants I liked. While evidence pointed to a flattening of emotions, I didn’t think the movie being anti “anti-depressants”, but it being used as a remedy to any moments of being down, anti this idea that we should regard ourselves as sick when we are deeply grieving over traumati events in our lives.

It’s one of the things I like about my therapist. She’s a psychiatrist and so can prescribe medication if there is need for it in her opinion. The first time I ever went to therapy to her, I was actually taking anti-depressants (2 months) prescribed by the house doctor. And yes depressed feelings were a symptom of my id-crisis. But she started a program where I had to downsize the intake in half a year… coincidentally, just the time I needed to graduate my master.

I’ve now been depressed four times in my life for several months, but each time it was as a response to events in my life… reactive depression, often a symptom of a development crisis: identity, sense-of-life, etc… heck or even from lack of minerals in your blood (that wa my first). Most of those cases don’t need anti-depressant medicine, but someone to help you through the tunnel vision and help you make start sense again of what happened to you in your life.

That doesn’t mean anti-depressants can not be of help in certain cases of depression… but the proportion of prescription of it nowadays is ridiculous, and in many cases should not be prescribed. Anti-depressants are more appropriate in pathological cases, where the cause of the depression is an innate imbalance of hormones in the brain without an actual life-event cause. These have the purpose to make a patient feel less of their non-causated blues, and thus flatten the piques and deep lows. In some cases they might even help someone who has a life-reactive depression to give them that little extra to start get their life back in order, but this should be treated with caution.

And the problem is that these emotion flattening medicines are majorly being used on people who would benefit probably much more with therapy and evolving from their crisis.

The message to me wasn’t that it “made” spaths, but rather that there is
a) this spathic belief it’s weak and wrong to feel pain and grief (when it’s actually VERY normal)
b) that the emotional flattening effect in people who don’t need it, creates for an apathy and dulling of the senses so that actual spaths have free reign

Ox Drover

On the use of anti-depressants and other psychotropic medications:

The APPROPRIATE use and MONITORING of antidepressant and other medications should be done by a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL or at LEAST by a family practice provider with MENTAL HEALTH TRAINING. It should be done on a regular and systematic basis and not done as just writing an Rx and a 6 minute office visit.

In my own practice, I frequently referred patients to a psychiatrist or to a therapist and very rarely prescribed psychotropic medications when I was in family practice without CLOSELY monitoring them myself or sending them ALSO to a PhD therapist as well. In severely depressed patients when antidepressants are given to them they may IMPROVE enough and get the ENERGY enough to KILL THEMSELVES. One of my former foster kids actually killed himself after his family doctor prescribed an antidepressant and he was NOT monitored, and didn’t give anyone a clue what he had in mind. He had been deeply depressed, and most VERY DEEPLY depressed patients don’t have the energy to kill themselves, but if they are given antidepressants and start to feel better, they may actually get the energy necessary to do suicide.

I take an antidepressant and have for several years, but I am closely monitored by my mental health care professional. I don’t try to “treat myself.”

Tranqualizers like valium, etc. are not the same as “antidepressants” and valium has some actual medical uses for a few problems but giving it to someone who is grieving is NOT one of those legitimate uses.

We DO need to experience our feelings, which includes deeply felt grief, and proper prescriptions of antidepressant medications do not keep a person from either feeling those feelings or being able to work through the grief process.

For those people who are bi-polar there are also medications that will help keep them from doing either the deep depressions or the manic highs..unfortunately, too many times the patients actually ENJOY the manic highs and will refuse to take the medications. Many psychopaths are ALSO bi-polar so they have the double whammy–or they are ALSO ADHD as well, so they can have MULTIPLE mental health issues in addition to a personality disorder….so add in SUBSTANCE ABUSE and/or SEXUAL ADDICTION and you have a person who is doing a lot of really BAD stuff.

Our own mental health issues which may be precipitated by the trauma and emotional turmoil from associating with a psychopath, or may be an inborn tendency for depression etc. can be treated or helped sometimes with psychotropic medications, but I think they need to be Rx’d by a qualified mental health professional who continues to monitor the person’s progress.


Oh yes, A LOT of spaths have many mental health issues all going on at once. Depression, bi polar, you name it. Right, add in substance abuse and/or sexual addiction and you do have a person who is doing some really, really, bad stuff. I seen it, witnessed it and experienced it, first hand. Like a wild animal on the loose almost. Not a very stable person.

I tried every depressant that exists, it seems and they all made me severely ill. I had to quit the therapist I was originally seeing because all they wanted to do was drug me to death. I went to a non drug therapist and we have tried some amazing approaches to therapy. I am real anti anti depressant for myself, personally, as I am so sensitive to so many different medications, I was never able to find one right for me. Although valium is an option, I don’t want to cloud my thoughts when I can stand meeting them head on.

Yes, we DO need to experience our feelings and come to deal with them. Grief is one of those, unfortunately.

Hope your day was a good one, Ox…
mine seems to be looking bright more and more everyday…((hugs)) ~ Dupey

I want to thank you all for a your feedback. It is a great privilege to have a group of attentive and active viewers like yourselves.

Donna, thanks for answering some of the questions of the viewers on our behalf. You are doing a great job!

In the beginning we didn’t know that there was such a large community of people — mostly women, who by sharing their personal experiences over the internet make the problem more visible . We didn’t know that we would find such a great and passionate “inner crowd”.

Our interest was to point out psychopathy as a glaring example of our cultural indifference. We believe that it is this globalized indifference and lack of empathy, which allows the really ‘bad apples’ to hide amongst our midst and spread evil.

I am <fishead( is therefore more about us than it is about them.

Your personal experience, your stories and your activity will be crucial for the future well being of our civilization. In the words of Robert Hare: "Psychopaths destroy the lives of people closest to them. Corporate and powerful psychopaths destroy entire cultures and societies."

The problem is that those who don't know about the danger, don't want to see it either.

That was the main reason for us to make the film. Thanks for watching and spreading the message.

Best, Misha

…and yes the film is having a very good viral uptake, which we have less and less control over every day.

Since it has been placed on the internet in November it has been seen by about 35.000 people and since the beginning of 2012 almost 3 000 a day.

Thank you all.


New Beginning

(((Oxy))), for the sad and frustrating day you experienced Monday.

In regards to the movie and antidepressants, I was on zoloft for a couple of years and it did help. Oxy, I also agree with your statement that anti-depressents can give a person enough energy to carry out a suicide. I don’t think anyone including mental health professionals can completely understand that until they have lived it. Sadly, I stopped seeing my therapist when I started to share the times my ex P tried to kill me. She said I was being delusional. Easy to say if you’re not the one that someone is trying to eliminate.

I’ve stopped the zoloft and believe I am doing ok without it though I still take xanax on occasion in order to sleep.

I have reached the conclusion I will never be completely back to the optomistic and happy person I was for most of my life……..and I believe everyone here has been forever changed by psychopaths.

Oxy, I hope today was a better day for you. *hugs*


Ox Drover

Dear New Beginnings,

THANK YOU for the hug! Today actually was a great day. I felt better physically than I had in quite some time (getting old is NOT for sissies! LOL) and I accomplished more than I had in I can’t remember when. I’m turning my spare bedroom (read: junk storage) into an exercise room…so moved out the bed that was in there (have plenty of extra sleeping in the Large RV (it sleeps 8 comfortably and non crowded) cleaned out the closet and dressers, and started fitting in the exercise equipment my son and I have scattered around the house. It is going to be really cool! We’re both excited about it! Framed and hung some pictures I like and just had a good time in there. Then decided to cook the afternoon away and ended up making several dishes for my son which are his favorites, and even made two pumpkin pies (not sure what possessed me to make them, haven’t made a pie in years!) but they were sodium free and low calorie even! LOL

Yea, today has been a great day actually and tomorrow and Thursday are going to some friend’s house to help with their butchering and cutting up meat! Will take one of the pumpkin pies to share! Actually I love the communal butchering, it brings back memories of the neighbors getting together and butchering hogs or making kraut or quilting…whatever they were doing when I was a kid!

You know, we may not ever be “the same” but that doesn’t mean we haven’t grown!~ You know I’m not the “same” as I was when I was 10, or 20, or 30 or 50, I’m different than Ii was at any age, but that doesn’t mean I am “not as good” or that I haven’t learned things I didn’t know when I was 10 or 20 or 30….CHANGE IS THE ONLY CONSTANT IN THE WORLD. Everything is changing, and change is NOT A BAD THING….neither is growth!

So don’t despair that you are “not the same” it is OKAY TO NOT BE THE SAME…in fact, I’m glad I’m not the same girl I was at 20, or even the woman I was at 40….I’m working on being a smiling old lady who is happy most of the time, and peaceful all the time! Content and satisfied!

New Beginning

Oxy, I’m glad today was so much better for you. Interestingly, in recent months I’ve found the truly bad days are usually followed by an exceptionally good day. A vast improvement from the time when EVERY day was absolutely horrid.

Regarding my opinion that I will never be the same person, it was referring to a deep inner peace and joy I’ve had ever since I can remember. I thought that’s how it was for everyone and have since learned otherwise so I am aware of how fortunate I have been in my 50+ years. The inner joy is gone. A spiritual intuitive captured how I had always felt by comparing it to me as a very young girl standing at the top of a grassy hill with my arms raised up to the blue sky in utter joy as the sun shone down……something like the visual from the Sound of Music. I was astounded by this comparison as I was never able to capture it in a way that I could convey. I admit, I now realize I lead a charmed life right up until I discovered who I was married to. Now I live my days watching my back. I have reached a type of acceptance and some days there is contentment however the inner joy I’d known throughout most of my life is gone…..completely gone, and I feel so very lost. I do expect that some of this also has to do with losing my Mom in April and am hoping the grief support group will be beneficial.

Oxy, enjoy the companionship over the next couple of days. Any day we can feel connected to others is a wonderful day. 🙂



I can’t wait to see the movie. Maybe this weekend. I like the theme of standing up and taking responsibility – this is a timeless theme.

The few times in my life I’ve been on anti-depressants, I found a slight benefit for a very short time in the beginning. After that I just began to feel toxic and only started feeling better once they were out of my system. It was very strange. I tried to self-monitor my use for a while, only taking a half a zoloft when I thought I needed it. This had mixed results. Eventually, I discovered a homeopathic doctor who prescribed a remedy that helped with both anxiety and depression. I was on it for a year or two. The nice thing about those is that there are no side effects. I really had a hard time with the sexual side effects of anti-depressants and preferred to take my chances on the depression without them.

I’ve been med-free now for many years. I am exploring different “technologies” for healing and having good luck with them. And I’m able to heal a lot through meditation. Simple awareness is a very powerful tool. Sometimes the awareness is of something really specific, like a belief or a feeling. Sometimes I just use a “wider angle lens” and just be aware that I’m tired or overwhelmed, and that’s enough. Patience with myself and self-acceptance seem to help me get through without meds. I’ve also discovered that daily exercise can raise endorphin levels, which really helps with stress.

Oxy, do you think it’s possible to forgive that guy who caused the plane crash? I know that’s a pretty tall order.

Ox Drover

Dear New,

The grief, and the lack of “joy” that goes with it will also pass, and as you recover, believe me your feelings of contentment, joy and spreading your arms wide to the world will return. It won’t be the Pollyanna-ish feelings of the “sound of Music” but it is still going to be good, believe me….it will come. It takes time, TIME T-I-M-E, and that is the thing we don’t want to give it, is the time it takes to heal.

I do think the grief support groups are beneficial. Also google Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, she worked with medical personnel with grief support, so she has some good stuff out there. She is gone now, but her work continues in helping others.

Yea, got to get to bed now and get rested up. I was on my feet today so long the bottoms of my feet are sore! Got a lot done though, and a satisfied feeling at night and being tired to he bone is still good….it is a great way to get to bed to rest up for the next day!

Yea, it will be bone breaking tired at the end of the day, but that is okay as well….goodnight!

Ox Drover

Star we posted over each other….yes, I have “forgiven” the man who caused the crash…as far as generally getting the bitterness about that out of my heart, I knew from the get go that he did not intend to cause the crash. In fact, he and his wife came over here every day and I dressed his wounds and burns for 6 weeks daily after the crash….

The dishonesty he displayed after the crash and the simple greed….surprised me and disappointed me frankly. He had done business with us at the airport for a couple of years. My husband had given his son lessons, worked on his plane and done the upkeep and examinations required on aircraft and he had always been a “slow pay” with his bill….though he has PLENTY OF MONEY….but after the crash when months had gone by and he had not paid me I asked him for the money and his answer was “why do you need the money?”

Then the day the agent came to get the plane he had bought for his son he sent a POST DATED CHECK with the agent….and I could not let the airplane go until I had the cash or Ii would have lost my right to sue under a mechanic’s lien if I had released the plane with the bill unpaid. In my state a post dated check is no good…and if he had stopped payment on it, I would have had no recourse. Plus, I found that he had also done something unethical with a patient’s law suit…the patient had promised him a percentage of the judgment if he testified for her against the nursing home where he worked as a supervisor. He thought this was just fine and dandy when it was a total violation of ethics.

So I do not think this man is the kind of man I want for a friend, or his wife or daughter (that my son D dated and was very much in love with) but at the same time, “out of sight out of mind” so hadn’t thought about him in a long time…and SUDDENLY seeing him fed the “angry/bitter wolf” inside me and so I had to take charge of myself and my feelings. Today has actually been a good day Star, and I’m looking forward to the rest of the week and our plans for it. Good night!

Ox Drover

ps Star, most psychotropic medications (with the exceptions of valium and other short acting anti-anxiety meds) are TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE if taken on an “as needed” basis, Zoloft is one of those that doesn’t give you immediate or even “Today” help….it takes time for the medications to build up in to a theraputic dose….2+ weeks or more and in some cases a month or more to see if the medication is going to help with that individual. Psychotropic medications should not be started or stopped suddenly or without consulting your health care provider and the person who Rx’d the medication.


Oxy, you are so inspiring in how you handle the challenges in your life. Denver is big enough so that I could roam the city for years and never run into anyone I know, far less an enemy. I’m glad you had a good day and hope it continues into tomorrow.


iamfishhead movie,

First I want to say I admire Donna for starting and maintaining this site. I have benefitted from many articles and discussions, though I am not a regular.

I am currently caught by a highlevel narcissistic-psychopathic brother in an inherited business that he is trying to destroy and make me financially responsible for either sibling jealousy (he was not a favored child in my father’s eyes, not that I was either, but not to the extent that he ingratiated himself when his issues started coming out). or he is just doing it to ‘win’ and have me lose. Who knows what motivates the specific behaviors. I have a lawyer and am trying to get out as fast as I can with as little liability for the business as possible.

So my P is not a love interest.

I have several thoughts on the iamfishhead movie:

I liked it, but I also thought it did not go far enough.

I liked the representation of the P climbing the corporate ladder, but I agree that the bloody cartoon violence will confuse the issue of most of them not being violent. The problem is that it is so hard to show how they really behave since they hide it so well. Like a thousand sharp tentacles woven into a toxic tapestry that must be looked at closely in detail to see what it really is….but then, of course….it is too late if you get that close.

What I though they were saying in the section on anti depressants is that these types of drugs remove the user’s ability to care, albeit in order that they not hurt from the thing causing them anxiety or depression. That part is good, but the unintended consequence is that removing the part of us that cares compromises our empathy. I don’t think they were saying it turns us into full blown psychopaths, but just that it temporarily removes our empathy, thus we temporarily lose our empathy. Those that read ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ may recall that even normal people under certain circumstances can lose their ability to empathize (recall the story of the man forgetting to feed his dog and in one hypothetical case, empathizing with the dog, but in another where he gets the flu on top of everything else, then he loses his empathy for the dog). I have not taken any antidepressants, so I do not have any experience with this, but I certainly wish I could ‘not care’ about the things that are bringing me anxiety sometimes. But who among us would want to lose our empathy?

Finally, I was very encouraged by the studies they referred to that indicate we only need 5 or 6 percent of us to turn the tide. I love the idea of 3 degrees of separation. I don’t remember exactly what that was about, but I liked it.

We may not be able to ‘convert’ the world to what we are trying to shed light on, but if enough of us learn and spread the word, maybe we have a shot.

O.k., one more shot at my thoughts on the nomenclature issue, as I can be stubborn to a fault when I get my mind set on it. Most people really do not even want to talk about or hear about the psychopath/personality disorder issue. This prevents us from getting the word out and, in my opinion, makes it a futile effort to spin our wheel on ‘official’ terminology and getting down to what to call the different flavors of personality disorders. I think we should use the term toxic and refer to them as tox’s and get on with the business of spreading the word. My reasoning is that it quickly alerts the listener that these are poisonous people and does not have the violent connotations of pyschopath, misleading ‘social’ connotations of sociopath or the also misleading ‘auntie-social’ of anti-social. I did several ‘counts’ on various sections of the blog and the word toxic is usually the most used word of the group, thought not as nomenclature, but only in a descriptive term. Just my two cents.

Thanks everybody for participating. Keep the warming fires burning!


KatyDid, thank you for clarifying the portion of the movie discussing antidepressants and the abuse of them in society and over prescribing of them for the wrong reasons. That is perfectly logical and I agree with that. I should not have presumed to know what the point was in the movie.
It seems everyone I know or have ever met is either on medication for anxiety or depression or they’re even selling drugs (painkillers from surgery, etc) and it’s rampant. It’s depressing- no pun intended.
I have to go for a check up every 6 months to get my prescription refilled. It never ceases to amaze me how addicts or people who self medicate know how to abuse or use the system to get their fix. I would never take prozac if I didn’t need to, if I didn’t feel it worked for me. Why bother? At 40 I was overdo in my opinion, on getting help from antidepressants, like I said even before meeting the psychopath. I still think my being depressed made my more vulnerable to”IT”‘s manipulation.
Yes, abuse of antidepressants as well as many other drugs, is a big problem in today’s society and the ramifications canNOT be good!

Mrs. Purple

I’m not sure how the differences between psychopaths and sociopaths is still up for debate. In Without Conscience doesn’t Hare talk about a study where psychopaths, sociopaths and schizophrenics all tested the same within their groups? This study had to be in the late ’80’s. Since then Blair has done lots of study on psychopaths, sociopaths and has come to the same conclusion. This is all part of the update to the DSM that will occur in 2013. Unless I’m missing something.

I think the part about the meds refers to all the “doctors” who put profits over people. And that’s a substantial amount of psychopaths right there! Big Pharma is making big bucks off people who are “depressed”. I’m sure clinical depression is serious, don’t get me wrong there. But depression stems from trauma and should be treated with trauma therapy. It’s way easier and less time consuming for any doctor to just write a script and send the patient on his way with nothing more. It’s a disservice to people and society. I think that’s a valid point. I totally agree that antidepressants enable victims to tolerate sociopathic behavior in others.

If you don’t think Fishead went far enough please let me recommend the movie Shame, directed by Steve McQueen. This movie is about the sex lives of psychopaths. Reviews say the movie is about sex addiction but this is only this particular manifestation of psychopathy. Shame takes the part where Fishead mentions promiscuity and brings this to the forefront. For anyone who has experienced Love Fraud this is a must-see.

Ox Drover

Dear Woundlicker,

I’m glad that your prescriber is keeping an eye on your medication and effectiveness. Yes, depression does make us more vulnerable. And the residual effects of prior trauma as well. Good [email protected]


Dear Oxy,

In a response to the other day, the one where you ran into your nemesis, well, how hard that was to face….Year: 2000….My second husband secretly planned to leave me plotting with his toxic family and tricked me into going on a visit to them in Florida. He then filed for divorce in Fl claiming I lived there.

We came back and he then left me. taking his daughter who was my stepdaughter, she was 8 then and knew me as Mommy, as I cared for her from age 4….all the while her and I, would hug each other and cry, knowing we would soon be separated…My other daughter was troubled, age 17, into drugs and I had to help her to get off them etc….(I had left my career to care for his daughter)….SOOO….the day he was going to leave with my stepdaughter, I put her upon my lap, kissing her cheeks, her eyes, her head, her lips, and he screamed at us saying that He wasn’t the one creating all this emotion!”….we parted and her big blue eyes looking up at him in disbelief as she walked past him to the car…she was holding a little pillow I had bought for her to squeeze when she felt lost or sad…it read: Miracles happen to those who Believe…

When he returned from taking her to Florida and to get his stuff, I tried to call her since he told me she was very sad. He pulled the phone away, and shoved me. I went to give him a pop in the jaw, which I did, and he threw hot tea in my face….Then he called the police and he got arrested…jerk….I hightailed it to a friends, and after one week, went back to the apartment finding I had been locked out….I went to my Landlords, husband and wife team, to demand the key as the lease was in both of our names….no dice…they said i might go back and murder him….

At the time, i was so beaten and I wasn’t thinking straight….I just waited until he left for good, stayed away, and then came back to get what he left me…so stupid I was….The landlords would not give me our security and so on…..They were so horrible to me and I had been such a good tenant, even washing the outside of the house, planting roses, etc…He had convinced them I was a crazy woman…..

Well, anyhow, after I moved on in my life, I found out my stepdaughter had sent a letter to one of my friends asking where she “could find my mommy”. Makes one feel kicked in the gut…..I still cry over it….But the good news was that we reconnected this past year and will be seeing each other again…

Oxy, the reason I am saying all this is because when I moved back into the area where the Landlords live, I knew that one day I would run into them again…..So, I came up with a few words I would say….That day happened when I went to a hardware store and looked up and there was the husband landlord….He smirked and gave me a big hello….I gave back my Clint Eastwood squint and coldly said “Well, well, if it isn’t the lynch mob…where’s your other half of the mob?”……He looked shocked and threw down the stuff he had in his hand and ran out of the store…..Of course, not to compare with your story, losing your husband to incompetence on the part of a neglectful man, but I was reminded of my face to face encounter…..

The hides: If the guy has the rest of your hides, he probably will make some agreement with you…too bad we can’t wear our six shooters on our belts anymore….

hugs((((()))))…..You are one of the strongest women I know….always look up to you and so do all of us here at LF…


Donna, upcoming Monday will be your episode of “Who the bleep did I marry.”


SNAG!! I’ve copied your comeback! Your Words ROCK!

I have been wondering what I’d be like if I ever ran into people who were so cruel to me. I didn’t want to fall apart. Your Clint Eastwood moment has become MY empowerment ammo.

I am locked and loaded with GREAT words. Thanks to you! TOWANDA!!


woundlicker –

“I don’t want to be dissuaded from taking Prozac. …helped me much more than hindered me….worked for my chemical make up…might be more damaging to get off antidepressants in the long run. I have not noticed … lack of empathy…Nor has my judgment seem clouded. ..We are all different…have to recover in healthy ways. If antidepressants made me behave, think, or feel in any way more negative than I started out feeling before taking them I would have stopped …..I was also embarrassed and ashamed to admit to anyone I was taking Prozac. ”

This is such a balanced outlook! And may I just say that NOTHING in any of your posts that I have read on LF remotely suggest that you are anything other than an articulate, clear-thinking, compassionate and sensible person. Obviously, the medication you are taking IS the right fit for you.

I have taken anti-anxiety meds on and off over the years to help me to cope with several issues, including a miscarriage (BTW the meds did NOT stop me from grieving; I still grieve today, although in a sensible, time-worn fashion that no longer overwhelms and paralyses me) and then because of being spathed twice (clever girl that I am, I married (and divorced!) TWO of the monsters…)

The one that eventually proved to be my “best fit” did not prevent me from feeling anything; it simply altered my management of existing emotions so that I was neither roller-coaster high nor roller-coaster low; there were stills peaks and troughs in my emotions but they were more balanced and I “flat-lined” from the ups and downs more quickly than I had been able to prior to being on the meds. I also had counselling/”talk therapy” and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy which helped me to learn to self-manage without the benefit of drugs.

Interestingly, at my very worst (about 4 years back in 2007) and before I was diagnosed with PTSD and referred for more counselling (just over 2 years back, end of 2009) I was managing to the point where I was able to come off the anti-anxiety meds. I spent about 8 months back on them again after the PTSD diagnosis but have been able to manage without them for well over a year now, even though some really distressing and awful things have still been happening during that same period.

Other than a back-up plan of a few Valium tablets for those court appearances where I need to face Superspath and be able to speak clearly and present my case to a magistrate/judge, I do not take anything for anxiety/depression.

The last bottle of Valium I had was only 10 tablets and a year after collecting the prescription I still had one left in the bottle! Not bad going when you consider all that happened that year.

New Beginning –

“I have reached the conclusion I will never be completely back to the optomistic and happy person I was for most of my life—..and I believe everyone here has been forever changed by psychopaths.”

You are right – we ARE all changed. Some of that change is for the better, although it takes us a while to see that. While I will never be grateful for my spathy encounters, I AM grateful for the things I now know that I didn’t know then. I am a far stronger, more savvy and more discriminating person as a result of having been spathed.

As for not getting back to “you”; 4 years back, I honestly could not see how it would ever be possible for me to be “me” again either. I felt that way for a good couple of years before things began to shift inside me in a major way. Around that time I found this site and from then on, my recovery accelerated…..I “zooomed” along from strength to strength!! This was in spite of my present major health issues that have resulted from chronic stress/trauma experienced over many years; plus some ongoing stress/trauma even to this day.

You will “zoom” too, I promise. All in time. xx


Just watched this today. Apart from falling madly in love with Peter Coyote, lol I got a lot from the film.

One thing I didn’t concur with was when Peter (grrr!) suggested that for a minute I was tempted to be a sociopath. No, nada, never!! Im sorry but I’ve never been tempted to treat anyone like shiat in order to get ahead. Does that make me goody two shoes? Or do I think I’m perfect? No, absolutely not. I’ve read a lot here about possessing a strong moral compass. And spaths are attracted to goodness to altruistic personalities. My ex is not the first spath I have encountered in my life. I have worked with a few. I just didn’t know what they were back then. Not once since then have I been tempted to be like that! It’s abhorrent, alien to me. Maybe I’m taking that remark too seriously but the suggestion that it’s easy to be drawn to the dark side by your own volition or by taking anti depressants is a little simplistic I think.

I agree with the argument that we as decent, law abiding, empathic individuals have to make a stand but there are so many people who turn a blind eye ….in my experience. When you are the only person in an organisation who is trying to do the right thing what do you do?
Leave …..find somewhere else to work. And believe me, I’ve tried. There are two main personality types as far as I’m concerned.
Psychopaths and bystanders. The bystanders know what the psychopaths are doing but are too scared to do anything. Yes sure they realise the potential of the paths but hey as long as theyre leaving them alone just bury your head. Thank God it’s not me that’s being victimised.
Then there’s the empaths …..I. Believe I’m one of them. I’m gona continue doin what’s right, standing up for what is right and hope that the bystanders can muster up enough courage to get some balls.

Rant over. Hate bullies


Although you and I are not tempted to act like spaths, there are a LOT of fencesitters who are. These are people who are basically empty of either good or evil. They exist in a world devoid of deep meaning or conviction. Spaths encounter them and use them. The spaths love to convert the fence sitters into their minions.

My little sister is a prime example. She has always been self-centered and selfish. She copied everything I did, always wanted to be like me in every way. She was spoiled as a baby and that continued all her life. When she had a head injury at age 15, she became rather “dull-witted” but still charming and loveable – sort of like the prototypical dumb blonde. Then she met her spath, the trojan horse that my spath trained and sent to infiltrate my family.

She changed very quickly. She allowed her selfishness and pettiness to show more often. In the end, I believe she purposely told her spath’s suicidal brother that his life didn’t matter to anyone. He had tried twice before to kill himself and he succeeded the very next day after that conversation. She was in on the plot to do the same to me. She even told me, “Skylar everybody is evil. I’m evil, you’re evil, trojan horse spath is evil and Spath is evil. We’re all evil – except mom.”

Turns out she was right except that I’m not evil and mom is.

There are so many people who have no feeling for others. The only reason they don’t attack and abuse as much as spaths do, is because they don’t think they can get away with it.


Really? Well that’s worse than what I believed. They don’t attack/abuse because they think they won’t get away with it. So essentially they’re spaths in the making then?



well that is my opinion because empathy is what precludes us from turning a blind eye. If someone can turn a blind eye when they see a spath attacking an innocent victim, then I imagine that they are without empathy.

So many people knew what my spath was and not one, told me. Not even my own parents. One woman, whom I worked with, tried to warn me. Her name was Julie and she only met him once. She said, “that man is not for you. Let me do your horoscopes so I can tell you.” Then she did and she said, “that is not going to work out at all.” But even she did not recognize the danger that he posed.

It never ceases to blow me away when I contemplate all the people my spath was able to convince that destroying me was FUNNY. These people mostly were turned against me using seeded envy.

People always ask, “how could the holocaust have happened? How could so many Germans turn a blind eye?” The answer it because they were the fence sitters and they turned the tide against good and toward evil. The holocaust was not the first or only genocide in history. Spaths know exactly how to do what they do, which is to infect human hearts with evil.

That’s why our work to educate people is so important.


They’re without empathy? I think they’re scared. Scared to stand up for what is right perhaps?

You know Skylar it is a frightening thought that there are people who are so easily swayed by evil! But you’re right. Just look at history. Easy to say ….not so easy to do. I don’t know do I? If the fear was great enough maybe I would be drawn into acts of evil. God, I sincerely hope not!!


I have the pleasure of knowing a very wonderful man named Dr Sam Oliner who made it his life’s work to understand not why people were evil, but what made people extend themselves when others would not. However, by default, Sam did document how such evil as the Holocaust, was so rampant. His work is very readable and I don’t have the space to explain it all.

In the beginning before war was declared, people did not object b/c what they observed was “not that bad”, and I don’t think any of us would have thought so either. They saw a PIECE of the puzzle, a momentary wtf, but they did NOT understand the long term ramifications of what they saw. By the time they did understand, their world was a police state and your child’s survival was dependent on YOU reporting your neighbor before someone else could report that you knew and did NOT report.

Where is the tipping point? To often, the tipping point is not evident until AFTER calamity. Otherwise, we would have averted it, right? Logically, people don’t walk up to a sociopath and say “Murder me.” They get murdered b/c they failed to identify the danger, the tipping point, BEFORE they were trapped without escape.

When I was living in a world of abuse and misery, I couldn’t understand how good townspeople would align with my husband and turn a blind eye to what was being done to me. I now understand, what they saw was “NO big Deal”. They did not see his evil, they heard an inappropriate bigoted comment that might have raised eyebrows but no one was going to jump on a white horse to rescue the damsel who was momentarily ridiculed.

Just saying, the majority of people are not swayed by evil, they simple misunderstand the POTENTIAL of a Small, seemingly insignificant WTF moment.

Could the genocide of WWII happen here in the USA? I KNOW it could. When you make somebody the enemy, you can justify ANYTHING. I Know b/c someone who thinks themselves NOT EVIL, did that very thing to me. People don’t have to be Spath to commit evil. But it is Spaths who know how to use people’s empathy to manipulate them into committing evil… “for the general good.”

How many have been maligned against another by ONE person, and the others took up the banner and our misery was the consequence? What becomes clear is not how people could be so BLIND but HOW do we wake them up to see the TRUTH in TIME?

Ox Drover

Vision, thank you so much! Sometimes I feel strong and sometimes I feel very vulnerable…I think that applies to most of us at one time or another. The “triggers” don’t blow me away for days or weeks any more, or put me in the PITS either….so that is great progress.

I’ve just decided that the hides that are still out are not all that important, actually they are for a friend of mine who wanted them. I have 3 hides and each of my two sons each have a hide, so I have no desire for any more….but at the same time, I am going to keep on setting boundaries…both in my personal life and in my business life. Not let dishonest or unethical people walk on me.

Ox Drover


Your talking about the people before WWII nnot realizing what was going on made me think about a story told by a woman whose father brought her and her mom and sibs to Canada BEFORE the war started. He could SEE what was going on and he tried to warn his Jewsih neighbors to FLEE with what they had on their backs if that was the only way to get out before the Nazis started killing them all, but the people did not believe that anything horrible would happen, and they said to him “But what would we do with our furniture?” The man and his family fled to Canada and all their neighbors were put in camps or killed.

People sometimes are “sheeple” and follow the herd, not realizing that the wolves are circling, and refusing to listen to any warnings.

I believe that large scale persecution of various groups is VERY possible even in this country….persecution to the extent of God knows what. It has happened before and it can happen again. The Europeans came here and wiped out the Native Americans because they viewed them as “sub human”—Nazis wiped out the Jews and other “sub humans” and so on…I could make a list 1000 pages long.

I think that many people do not even really believe that a psychopath is anything but a serial killer and then that it is a rare thing…they don’t realize that the Bernie Madoff’s and the John Edwardses are just as toxic, and way more dangerous to society and humanity.

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