By | January 15, 2010 278 Comments

French to introduce law banning psychological abuse

Those of us who have been psychologically abused by sociopaths—whether we’re male or female, and whether the abuser is male or female—know that the abuse should be criminal. It appears that in France, it just may happen.

A Lovefraud reader sent me a link to an interesting story in Time Magazine. Legislators from France’s ruling party are expected to introduce a bill that would outlaw “conjugal abuse of a psychological nature” in both married and unmarried relationships.

According to Time,

The legislation seeks to target the verbal and mental denigration, humiliation and manipulation that typically lead to physical abuse. The hope is that the bill will help prevent the emotional wounds that words often cause before a punch is ever thrown.

I hope the law gets passed. I hope it works. We’ll have to see what happens.

Read the article on

French bid to ban marital abuse that’s psychological

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This is so important…Why dont we have this here?! Always I hear by the system about physical abuse and the help that is out there for that…Makes me wish I was being beaten the bejesus out of instead of this psychological abuse that destroys you more and sociopaths dont stop until you are dead Im afraid. At least physical wounds heal….I would trade places in a minute for what I have endured and am still living in even though I left the situation…that makes the sociopath even more determined to destroy you. I will work on getting this passed here…

Ox Drover

While I think it should be illegal to do “psychological abuse” against any one, the problem I see is that it IS ILLEGAL to physically abuse a partner or any one else, and yet many spouses are repeatedly physically abused and the perp not arrested or charged.

The only physical abuses that are charged are the most outlandish cases, and I imagine the only psychological abuses that will be charged are the most outlandish cases as well, plus the only “proof” must either be the abused’s words of “he called me a doo doo and that was abusive.” At least with physical abuse it at least leaves some physical evidence behind and is clearly abuse.

I don’t mean to sound negative, but Proving physical abuse is much easier than psychological abuse.

That Woman in Tennessee who killed her preacher husband (I forget her name) had been psychologically abused, was one of the worst cases of psychological abuse I have ever heard about.

I hope that law does however raise awareness that psychological abuse of others can be as bad as, or worse, than physical abuse.

Passing laws against bad behavior of any kind doesn’t stop that behavior, just criminalizes it. If it stopped it, we would never have robbery, murder, prostitution or drugs, etc in this country and it would be paradise, but raising awareness that this is not acceptable behavior, and maybe by “defining” it, like has been done in some schools in prohibiting and defining “bullying” has raised awareness and stopped some of the activity at least.

I hope this woman and her child have somehow managed to escape the situation in the two years since this has been written.


Additionally, even when people are physically abused they do not proceed with charges. They refuse to cooperate, hence prosecuters have very little, at times, to go on.
The problem lies with the victim. If your abused, and file for a TPO or call police to report….FOLLOW THROUGH.
This is where NO CONTACT is important.

When a person is abused, and take the first step to get out and report……an arrest is made or a TPO is issued….then that person is feared or talked into going back…because I’m gonna change, I love you, I want ‘us’ to work blah blah…..then there is nothing anyone can do for the abusee…..and when NOT IF it happens again…and you call the authorities….your case is minimized because law enforcement can predict the outcome…….you’ll drop it and go back.
It’s a perpetual cycle that occurs around the world.

If we want someone to take us seriously……then we must take it seriiously.

Thank you, Donna. This is excellent news.

Just the idea that legal standards for emotional abuse are being established, with intent to protect people in close relationships, suggests a ripple effect in that could well move into schools, workplaces and mass consciousness.

One of the reasons, I believe, that this kind of abuse is allowed to flourish is a lack of clear identification of what abusive language is, how it affects the target, and the secondary effects in broken families, damaged children, post-traumatic issues that affect all kinds of human systems in debilitating and costly ways. These may be exceptionally laws to write, pass and enforce, but their very existence communicates a value statement by authorities that the public good is served the protection of individual emotional health against the verbal equivalent of physical battering.

While the Time article suggests that this will be a slam dunk by French lawmakers, I think it will be very interesting to see how the law is written and who comes out to support and oppose it. If such a thing were attempted in this country, I can imagine significant resistance, based on Constitutional free-speech rights.

I suspect it will be difficult to frame objective standards, and equally difficult to prove damage. Currently employee protection laws against similar mistreatment, such as sexual harassment or unfriendly workplace laws, require levels of documentation of events and damage that discourage most potential complainants. Typical defenses involve discrediting the employees for one reason or another, including citing pre-existing emotional problems that either contributed to the situation or diminish the “new” damage.

The French legal system still operates on the Napoleanic code. The might make it much easier on victims, because more of the burden of proof is placed on the defendant to prove that the charges are not true.

In any case, whether or not this law can provide a precise model for other countries, especially the US, which is notoriously resistant to expanding the legal definition of human rights, I think it’s a good sign that at least one country is making a serious attempt to define personal damage in this sense.


Napoleanic code?! I am shipping the spath to France!


Ah this is what I have dreamed of – but you all point out good areas to ponder – it won’t make a difference till awareness is raised as to what constitutes psychological abuse, till victims fully recognise they are being abused and report what is happening to them and until there are resources in place to deal with the investigation and punishment of psychological abuse.

We do indeed have legislation against workplace abuse and stress provisions but cases taken against employers are rarely successful – why? well most corporations can afford to employ teams of legal counsel to defend themselves while the employee who has been broken is struggling to survive and has limited resources. We need to level the playing field in this respect – it’s patently unfair that one side in a dispute has access to vast resources while the other has none. Little wonder corporations and large organisations get away with significant abuses against their employees.

Another problem with both workplace and home abuse is that there are seldom witnesses to corroborate the victim’s statements. The idea of Napoleonic Code sounds intriguing -dangerous if you’re accused of something you didn’t do, but useful for cases like this. The rest of the world operates on the premise of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ – making it very very hard for victims of any kind of abuse to get justice. Also many victims are so exhausted by the end of the relationship they just want to walk away from it rather than trying to pursue any kind of justice.

I think it’s great the legislators recognise the damage psychological abuse causes and also that it is always a precursor to physical abuse. I wonder what the impact of this type of legislation would be if adopted worldwide? WOuld we eventually see less need for domestic violence shelters?


This is good news. Now there are so many reasons to move to France–not just for the beautiful language and the gourmet food. But I think the law should protect men as well. Abuse can work both ways.


Don’t forget the hot accents!


yah, all the spaths pretend to be TEXAN!



The morning I went to get my Order of Protection, I woke up and looked in the mirror, and a blood vessel or something had burst under my eye. It was black and blue; so I put as much make-up over it as I could and went downtown. So there I was, a little while later, talking to an advocate in family court about my psychological abuse, (I also had a very graphic e-mail threat to support my case), and she kept looking at me with this pathetic look on her face. She finally said to me, “does he hit you often?”

The black eye may have helped my case — but I wish I could also present the months of agony at work, where I couldn’t think straight long enough to finish a task. My coworkers no doubt noticed the difference in me, but was it documentable? It was just, as my mother said, that I had “changed.” I was insecure in my perceptions and lacked confidence. All the result of “gaslighting” and screaming and name-calling that escalated after I confronted my former S/P about a suspected affair.

NO I’m not with him anymore. I’m meeting him in court next week to make the Order permanent. It’ll be the first time I’ve seen him since early November. And I’ll bet he’ll tell the judge that I’m overreacting, and that I’m just an overly emotional woman. Only I know how much time I lost out of my life, because of the way he played with my brain.

Vive la France!


If thats his story…..GREAT!
Don’t think a judge hasn’t heard about ALL the over reacting crazy women that file for TPO’s and go for an extension.
The fact that your following through is great. It speaks volumes!
You can’t really document (on paper) emotional abuse….it’s contained inside your head/heart. BUT….you can document in words to the judge the affect it has had on your life…..easitly…..just like you stated here.
Typically, if you tell them you live in fear, the fear creates anxiety and it is very disruptive to your life……and state examples…(a few only)…’ll be heard.
Bottome line….you fear him, or his actions……get that point across to the judge. Along wiht your letters etc…..
Good luck girl….your going in the right direction!!!



I’m struck by the comment on your eye. It really illustrates a point about abuse and the prevalence of “out of sight out of mind”. I was physically as well as emotionally abused. I still get headaches and have whiplash, but other than that there are no outward signs of the horrible damage that was done to me – not physically anyway.

The emotional abuse has left it’s mark in my behavior though – Post Traumatic Stress. The only thing with that is that people don’t RECOGNIZE that as SCARRING AND DAMAGE if they can’t see black and blue.



Laws such as this make it less likely that your “average” abuser will keep on abusing only if they are enforced. Unfortunately, like most laws regarding adult victims of abuse, laws are hardly enforced or taken seriously until the victim is in the hospital or a cemetary.

I wish that adult abuse in relationships could be taken just as seriously as child abuse, and that’s not currently the case. Somehow I don’t think that a person abusing an 8 year old child would get off as lightly as a domestic abuser who targets his “partner” in the same manner.

I believe that psychopaths need to be treated with an iron fist because p’s and s’s don’t care about laws, just about power and control. If they do care about the law, then it’s only when they can twist it to their advantage.

If I had my druthers, parents, siblings, and grown children of adult victims could file a restraining order on behalf of their loved ones in an abusive relationship. I believe that there needs to be an organization for parents and other loved ones of ADULTS in abusive relationships to change DV laws so they could pass this and similar laws.

Such a law would say to the sociopathic predator that “My child (or sibling, or parent) is important enough to me that I’m willing to advocate on her (or his) behalf even when grown.”

I would also like to see restraining orders AUTOMATICALLY apply to parents, siblings, and children of the victim of DV as well as the victim regardless of the age of the siblings or children, not just when the victim’s kids/siblings are minors.

I believe that parents need to keep an eye on their grown children’s relationships and be able to intervene in situations, REGARDLESS OF THE GROWN CHILD’S WILLINGNESS. With sociopaths, the rules are different than with regular relationships.

Other laws that could help include factoring a victim’s past abuse history as an aggravating factor in sentencing (i.e. if a grown victim was also abused by a teacher at 15, the court should factor in the previous as well as current victimization).

The language dealing with abusive adult relationships needs to be changed if there is to be success.

As stated in another thread, psychopaths in relationships are the adult victim analogues of pedophiles and hebophiles and can be described as adult molesters when they sexually coerce/manipulate/assault. A sociopath’s sexual attraction to adults serve the same ends and leads to the same results as a pedophile’s attraction to children or a hebephile’s attraction to teens.

We should not be referring to “partner” abuse at all because partners are peers/equals. Instead we should be referring to adult grooming, sexual coercion and predation.

When psychopaths meet a woman (or man), he is grooming, not dating the victim. They are not interested in relationships with their target’s best interest in mind. They identify vulnerabilities, create a position of power, reward the victim’s compliance, isolate the victim from their loved ones, and sexually, physically, and/or emotionally abuse.


Brian – powerful last paragraph.

personally, i want a spath vengence squad. and i am actually serious. i want covert groups of healed ex dupes to to band together to deal with those spaths still operating. i think we call this vigilanty justice in NA. we wouldn’t physically hurt them, but do recon around all their dealings, out them endlessly to law enforcement and taxation, community and new ‘freinds’.

the anti spath wing of the guardian angels. spath slayers.



That is an excellent post. I agree with you 100%.

I’d like to see a national advocacy group on this issue along the lines of what Mothers Against Drunk Drivers has done.

Create media awareness.
Educate – go into the High Schools regularly.
Support – provide ongoing support for victims.


Great post, indeed.
And yes, your last paragraph is right on the mark. I remember mine used to often say to me things like “you’re doing well. you’re almost there.” Like I had some kind of test to pass. In one of our last conversations together, he was pushing me to lie to my family about aspects of our relationship. I found myself saying to him: “I have to kill a very crucial part of myself to be what you want me to be.”

“So kill it,” he said.

When I left him, we stayed in touch for awhile, and he kept forcing me to rationalize why I left him.. Then he would try to turn the blame to me: “It’s your fault; you met me on the internet.” “It’s your fault; we got intimate too fast.” “It’s your fault; you should have read the signs.” And the great one: “It’s your fault; you loved too much.”

After I left him, he ultimately threatened to throw acid in my face. (While I was with him, he threatened to kill me if I left him.) This is how I got the Order of Protection.

I found this blog on line about a British model whose ex-lover had thrown acid in her face. He was, I guess, a member of some black sub-culture; she was a blond white woman. She met him on Facebook. People in the blog were saying it was her fault for getting involved with a man like that who she met on the internet. “She got what she deserved.”

Can we really have justice against folks who verbally and emotionally abuse us in a society as sick as that?

Erin, thanks for your applause! And yes, icanseeclearly, I think I’d be terrifically disfigured already, if people could see what he did to my spirit.



Another thing is to make sure that you have all your ducks lined up in a row regarding both the statistics and the impacts of such abuse. There are many studies about DV, rape, and sexual coercion out there.

As you alluded to, I think that the most visible support from the public would come if such an organization was composed mainly of mothers of grown children victimized by DV and other sociopathic offenders. Mothers who know that a child doesn’t have to be a minor to be targeted by predators (sexual and otherwise).


Agree with the others – excellent post Brian – especially the last line about grooming rather than dating – that hit home with me – I am struggling to cope with the fact he has taken up with a much younger woman and is flaunting it in my face. This helps me remember what is really going on in this situation and to remind myself he won’t treat her any better than he treated me.

Louise – that is so scary that he threatened you in this way – I have seen many pictures of those scarred with acid – what a horrible act to do to someone. Thank goodness you got away. The ‘she got what she deserved’ phenomenon can also be clearly seen with rape victims “Well she shouldn’t have been wearing THAT and walking there” – as if there is an excuse and the attacker was provoked in some way! It’s all about Just World Theory – people like to think that everyone in the world gets what they worked for and what they deserve – it simply isn’t true as I am rapidly finding out. People don’t like to think about the injustices that exist so it’s easier to blame the victim “Well you must have provoked him in some way – you should know to keep your mouth shut”

NO NO NO!!! There is never an excuse for abuse. Abuse is soul murder and identity crushing. I do want to see a public education campaign – but how do we do it? It’s such a hard phenomenon to explain. If we could explain it in one sentence we might have a better shot at it. I tried writing about it for a character and after many tries gave up = I couldn’t clearly articulate what was wrong with this person.
It’s crazy!


The new French law is UNISEX. If you were a true professional not a misandrist you would have questioned the validity of such an obvious discrepancy as is stated in the title. You would have done this in either the interpretation or the validity of passing such a gender biased law.

Any DV related law that targets only one sex is erroneously based and abusive of human rights whether targeting males or females. To claim a gender neutral law is targeting only one sex, men, the sex who least frequently commits this particular defined form of abuse, is misandry.

If you were not pre-disposed to be prejudice against men, you would have spotted this, immediately.

Thankfully, most men and women are not abusive and the general public is beginning to spot the propoganda, these falsehoods and myths.

If you, representing yourself as a professional, cannot understand the well documented fact that DV with a couple of small variations is overall a gender balanced form of human abuse, you are either very prejudiced or woefully uninformed on your stated specialty.

The numbers of violent women and men are near equal in almost all categories, with women pulling ahead in overall numbers of perpetrators.

If you are having issues with recognizing that DV is a human problem, not a gender problem, you need some serious counseling to get back on track. You may have immersed yourself into rationalizing hate and demagoguery. Your apparant gender hate may be showing through the facade of ‘a kind and reasonable person’.

Review your own writings about psychopaths and antisocial personality disorders. Apply your own descriptions of symptoms and indicators to your own writings. You either need a self-check on your biases or you need professional assistance to get back on track. You are enabling the female abuser readers and providing secondary victimization of the abused men among your readership. You have both male and females from both categories as readers. If someone were doing this to women, would you react the same?

If you were being professional on this blog, as you claim, you would recognize each relationship is stand alone in addressing violence and cannot be fit into a gender defined mold. You would recognize that to enter into an assessment using your own prejudice and not professionalism, is to guarantee a destructive therapeutic relationship and outcome. This, applying your own amorphous cup of irrational personal bias and agendas in a statement as a professional, is called “transference”. You were trained to guard yourself against transferece to become a mental health professional.

Transference, a dangerous and destructive counseling/therapeutic prejudice, is only transference if you are unaware of your bias, if you are aware, which you are, it then becomes a form of abuse and false activism.

As long as the demagogues and male hate mongers, misandrists, continue to pander to the prejudice of pc man-hate, we will never be able to adequately address that abuse is a gender neutral dysfunction. And, we will never be able to stop it as long as we reward any gender for committing it.

If anything, the studies show that women are slightly more aggressive than men, but because of the extreme bias against men, the conviction numbers are readily acknowledge by researchers as being skewed and reflective of bias of courts, police, & prosecutors against men. Those conviction numbers are sometimes used to justify ever more contraindicated draconian legislative victimization of men that does nothing more than fuel ever greater DV by abusive women freely allowed to train their children in their own footsteps. The bias rewards and incentivizes abuse by the women in our world who are abusive.

When ’anyone’ expresses prejudice, an irrational hate of any human belonging to a targeted group, that same ’anyone’ will very readily rationalize hate and abuse to targeted others on race, religion, etc”.

Prejudice is very ugly and is the issue you, as a proclaimed professional, must address before realistically addressing any abuse by others. Domestic violence is, sadly, a gender equal opportunity life destroyer.

Much of the enforcement system is driven by the Federally funded training for these officials (judges, D.A.s, attorneys, and police) is filtered through shelter groups for personal self-aggrandizement, and allowed to be controlled and directed by women who have no professional qualifications and in some instances are themselves convicted of violence towards their own children and spouses. These gender activists have very serious financial incentives to maintain the bias.

Several states are now going outside this twisted, for profit, training system to look for unbiased professional training on gender neutral approaches to DV and joint custody barring violence or abuse to a criminal standard by either side.

An excerpt from a recent online study is provided below and the full text can be Googled and readily located. It states that psychological abuse is one where the female perpetrators outnumbered the males. The answers are not as cut and dry as being an all male or all female issue as you would present. Learn to be professional, once more.

“A 2005 study by Hamel[8] reports that “[M]en and women physically and emotionally abuse each other at equal rates.” Basile[9] found that psychological aggression was effectively bidirectional in cases where heterosexual and homosexual couples went to court for domestic disturbances. A 2007 study of Spanish college students (n = 1,886) aged 18”“27 [10] found that psychological aggression (as measured by the Conflict Tactics Scale) is so pervasive in dating relationships that it can be regarded as a normalized element of dating, and that women are substantially more likely to exhibit psychological aggression. Similar findings have been reported in other studies.[11] Strauss et al.[12] found that female intimate partners in heterosexual relationships were more likely than males to use psychological aggression, including threats to hit or throw an object. A study of young adults (N = 721) by Giordano et al.[13] found that females in intimate heterosexual relationships were more likely than males to threaten to use a knife or gun against their partner.

Numerous studies [14][15][16][17][18][19] report that lesbian relationships have higher overall rates of interpersonal aggression (including psychological aggression/emotional abuse) than heterosexual or gay male relationships. Furthermore, women who have been involved with both men and women reported higher rates of abuse from their female partners.[20]

In 1996, the National Clearinghouse on Family Violence,[3] for Health Canada, reported that 39% of married women or common-law wives suffered emotional abuse by husbands/partners; and a 1995 survey of women 15 and over (n = 1000) 36-43% reported emotional abuse during childhood or adolescence, and 39% experienced emotional abuse in marriage/dating; this report does not address boys or men suffering emotional abuse from families or intimate partners. A BBC radio documentary on domestic abuse, including emotional maltreatment, reports that 20% of men and 30% of women have been abused by a spouse or other intimate partner.[21]

Straus and Field[22] report that psychological aggression is a pervasive trait of American families: “verbal attacks on children, like physical attacks, are so prevalent as to be just about universal.” A 2008 study by English, et. al[23] found that fathers and mothers were equally likely to be verbally aggressive towards their children.”

It has been odd watching a person with observable asocial attitudes moderate an anti-psychopath blog formatted discussion group as the person slowly fragments and begins to expose themselves and their disturbed thinking. It should be a personal wake-up call. We can all slip into wrong-way generalizations, but mental health professionals need to be especially wary of their own humanity.

Sign me a survivor of physical and emotional DV, as well as secondary abuse by Misandrist Hate Mongers.

patriotdad, you are clearly angry about your idea that female-to-male abuse is not adequately acknowledged. However, if you spent much time on this site, you would be aware that a number of our regulars are men with histories of involvement with abusive women.

However, you may also note that the overwhelming percentage of people on this site are women. What that means in terms of overall interpersonal abuse numbers in the world at large is something we can’t estimate. You have your numbers. We have the evidence of our population here.

Just to keep things straight, the Time article that was cited in the original post above said specifically that the law is being written to protect women, as a result of general consciousness being raised by the murder of several woman by their husbands or boyfriends. Perhaps you think that Time magazine is also misandrist in their reporting.

Finally, this is a site for mutual support. It is unfortunate that you feel that your own cause is unrecognized. However, mutual support does not include calling each other names like “Misandrist Hate Mongers,” criticizing each other for things like “asocial attitudes,” and we try to keep straight on each other’s facts. The writer of this article is not a mental health professional.

I’m going to report your post as abusive, which it is. Anger is not an excuse. Donna, you are welcome to delete my response as well, if you wish.



Good Morning Kathy – I have also reported the post.

one step


I wanted to share my current situation with you guys as it is relates to this article- BUT I NEED some advice here PLEASE, if any of you have been where I’m at-
Some of you here may know that after my 3 yr old relationship/marriage to an abusive N/P,which included protection orders, charges for DV against him, etc. I had to face that my 21 yr old son is also an abusive S.

He has been in jail for almost 3 wks awaiting court for DV toward his girlfriend of 19. The court is today.
I have been talking with his gf whose parents live out of the country and dont know anything about the sustained abuse she has dealt with for about a yr. now. I have begged her to tell them what she has now shared with me, and allow them to help her. She wont even allow me to contact them on her behalf (I have no way of reaching them.)

So I am trying to counsel her in the best LF kind of way- stressing NO contact,,and have given her this site to help her heal. Even tho I am the predators mother,(its hard to even type the words) I tell her NO different than I would tell a beloved friend ( and I do love her very much) and that is to protect herself #1 , and my advice is to take this to the FULLEST extent of the law. My burden for her is tremendous, aside from the burden of knowing my son’s fate (of being a P, without conscience)

She recently broke my heart when she said she may drop the charges (shes in a major trauma bond, and I’ve discussed this with her, along with other symptoms of abuse).
I pleaded with her to get protection order although warning her that unfortunately this WILL only set up a paper trail,with minimal safety for her-
BUT it IS NEEDED as he won’t leave her alone- and she admittedly “can’t say no to getting back with him” I explained that the protection order will help HER emotionally to enforce and keep NC. It will not PREVENT a S in a sociopathic rage from coming after her!
I said to her if you were to drop this charge, the police may not take this as seriously the NEXT time he does this to you! She sd. I know, when I called the police another time, I had a black eye ,but ended up NOT pressing charges, and the officer said TO THIS 19 yr old college student WITH NO PARENTAL GUIDANCE, or family-
‘ Then I have NO pity for YOU” (since she refused pressing charges) — WHAT THE Freak???
I am furious that this ignorant police officer would say this to this abused girl!!! ALSO, I am debating on sending an email to the college councelor stating the facts of this case so that MAYBE someone can help her!
Along with the struggles for justice, I see the enormous need for officers training even before the laws can be readily enforced.

I realize that I am all over the place with this post, which represents where my brain is- not to mention my heart.

On the other side of it- I refuse to enable my son by helping him. He is where he should be – in jail. My only outreach was to send a 5 page letter with bible scripture where God commands us to turn away from evil, and not live as fools who are destained for death and destruction through wickedness.
As a mother, this is a wretched place to be in. My feelings and knowledge on abuse and sociopathy are clear and steadfast. The natural tendencies to protect and nuture my son are in direct conflict when he is the abuser. There is no protection for him- I must do my best in protecting others “from” him.


I am so sorry…..and my heart breaks for you!
I am also very very proud of you for taking such a courageious stand for what is right and trying to protect this young woman from a predator. Even if that preditor is your own son.
I have been recently learning the ‘concept’ of tough love…..and it’s all about the name….TOUGH!
It is imperative this woman knows the dangers….unfortunately, she may NOT be ready to accept it, as a lot of persons in her position are not.
Your efforts though will not go un noticed or in vain….there will come a day, where she ‘wakes’ up….maybe tomorrow….maybe in 10 years….or like me with all the people who tried to help me…..28 years!
I believe you have done ALL you can do for her. It’s a delicate situation……
Keep the nudging going, but don’t enable her……point her in the healthy direction.

As far as your son goes….I’m sorry for your realization. I bet you suffered with abuse from him also……I tried to put myslef in your shoes, and imagine how your feeling angry at your son amongst other things…..and I just can’t. I too see signs of behaviors I am certainly not happy with in one of my sons……and it scares the shit out of me……I lead him on a tight rope, but he is still defiant etc…..If he turns out to be abusive….I have NO IDEA what I will do…..expect be prepared to ‘let him go’……like his father.

Remain strong….and your doing the right thing……you cant’ control others behaviors.


sabrina, there may be a reason why she doesn’t want to contact her parents. People with previous history of traumatic abuse are more likely to be revictimized.

Rather than counsel her about NC (which is probably not something that she can get her mind around), it might be more useful to be very straight with her. She is behaving like someone who is seriously mentally ill and not able to protect herself. Physical abusers escalate the abuse. Her life is at risk. Ask her if she wants to die, or get help.

This may sound brutal, but she’s disassociating. And the only way she’s going to make a better decision is if you can break through that.

You’re relating to her pain. And you’re assuming that the best medicine is “comfort.” Telling her you care. Telling her she’s worth more. Telling her that it would be better if she went NC.

She’s not hearing you because she’s caught in a cycle of panic. And she’s going back to him, because however twisted this is, he is security. It’s like an addiction and she needs an intervention.

I’d call the DV hotline or get in touch with whatever DV resources are available, and tell them to you need a therapist or other professional who can help clarify that she’s mentally ill right now, and that her life is absolutely at risk. And that she has to start taking steps to get well and protect herself.

I don’t think that you can do this by yourself. You’re too emotionally involved, and you’re also “family,” which she may or may not trustl, no matter when you tell her your loyalties are. That doesn’t mean you can’t support her, if she does get help and go into recovery. It’s just this intervention. She needs someone to wake her up, and she has already shown that she can successfully tune you out.

You said she’s in school. If you can’t find someone to help you through the DV people, try the school. Explain the story and say that YOU need help, in order to help her. That you are not able to reach her, and she has already been injured and is at severe risk of more violence. Then ask if they have a counselor or outreach program for victims of DV. Also check the police. They may have someone.

sabrina, you are not responsible for this. I know you care. But you cannot physically restrain this girl, or ultimately protect her from herself. She has to make her decisions. The challenge is to find someone to help wake her up to what she is doing to herself by continuing to allow him into her life. But if she doesn’t make that decision, you have to find the strength in yourself to let it go. Because it’s out of your hands.

People in her situation need to know that someone cares about them and will be there for them. But that, in the end, is all you can do. This is up to her.

You are struggling with a history of victimization and the knowledge that your son is an abuser. Your mental health is a matter of concern. You need to take care of yourself. That means to pay attention to how you feel, do good things for yourself, and consciously limit your involvement in what you can’t handle or what is out of your control. I know this is your son, and I know you care about her. But you have to take care of yourself or this whole thing is going to turn into a re-traumatizing experience for you. And none of these people are going to be there to take care of you.

I hope this makes sense. Please, please take care of yourself.



Erin, thanks so much for your response, it means alot to me, knowing how you took on the S husband, and kicked his A** up one side and down the other in court. We all rejoiced in your victory and have been encouraged through your courage and resolve to end the abuse. I am so sorry to hear the news that your son is exhibiting traits as well. No one can even imagine what it is like until you walk in these shoes. it is like trying to “prepare” for a death- you just can’t. Even when your laughing and having carefree moments- the dimness of your loss is still there staring through the joy- behind the smile and light is that darkness and sadness that is just there. Even if no one in the room knows, you KNOW. The heartache you feel when other moms complain about their sons grades in college,not keeping a clean room, or staying out too late. You just think- oh to Have that problem. That is sooo trivial compared… Its all about perspective. I know many parents who would prefer my problem over worse situations yet. Thank God the g.f. is alive! I am doing everything I can to give her the knowledge that most of us didnt have in the midst of the abuse cycle.

Kathy- Thank you, your wisdom is invaluable to me. I share your thoughts about my mental state, and hers as well. We are on same page about notifying the school. As I mentioned, the comment from the officer was ridiculous, but may not represent the PD attitudes. I still think the college may be more beneficial and she is more apt to take the help as it would be less threatening to a 19 yr old.
As you advised, I have been very upfront and forward in what I have told her. She feels “pity” for him , as he has her believing that he dosen’t REMEMBER his vicious attacks on her. I said “If he KILLS you next time, It won’t really MATTER if he remembers or NOT, YOU WILL STILL BE DEAD! You don’t get a 2nd chance or “do over” to live.
I also told her numerous times to quote Oxy (not exact-but something of this nature) that rat poison is 99% benign ingredients while only 1% is lethal. That 1% is enough to KILL YOU. All those momentary “good” qualities do not negate the “death potential” that you are endangering yourself with. (a big thank you to Oxy for such an easy to understand analogy HUGS)))
ANy and all comments is appreciated as I am more than willing to try most anything necessary to help. The sad part is that I may be setting myself up for a lifetime of trying to save.

I know that there is ONLY so much that I can do, I am not responsible for his actions but I feel that If I am knowing of abuse , able to intervene, but don’t,it is just as guilty. Not to say that sometimes we can only afford to spend so much energy in it, and our own safety has to be priority. And yes, Erin, you were right – my son has even been abusive towards me, and I’ve seen the S- rage that goes on- its quite chilling.


“The sad part is that I may be setting myself up for a lifetime of trying to save.”
This is where you must balance the awareness with the realization you can’t ‘help’ everyone.
You must set those boundaries and stick to them. I imagine this is very difficult to do…..because we are ‘helpers’, ‘fixers’…..
I have gotten good at ‘giving up’ on people on the ‘outside’ that just won’t get it….I can say my peace and walk away….
But….with those on the ‘inside’ I haven’t figured out the key that fits the lock on that one.
I am as prepared mentally as I can be to ‘let this son go’ when he’s 18.
If that is what it takes to keep my sanity and health in tact.
This mental preparednesss will not make it any easier to do if I need to…..but willingness is my protector at the moment.

I often think how I will feel if he”s living under a bridge and needs help……but the ‘help’ I can offer has been raising him to know right from wrong… money, plan ahead, treat others like you wish to be treated and all the lessons parents teach……but I am aware I can’t enable him. It’s up to him.
This son has ‘stood’ up and blocked me from leaving a room and has very little respect for authority. He’s ADHD and I refuse to let that be an excuse.
I have had major hardships and no one is interested in any of the excuses I could come up with to excuse behaviors /actions…..
It’s like if we lose a leg……what, do we just sit in the corner for the rest of our lives? NO you figure it out……
It’s unfortunate, but we have to figure out how to live with our specific situation.
We are responsible for our own happiness.
Reading your post, I envisioned myself with my son in your position and it scares the hell out of me. I can only hope my influence overrides his S fathers…..but ultimately he knows how it feels to be abused and it is his choice how to treat people.

Anyways….do what you can, but don’t give more than you have to ‘give’.
You should be proud of your knowledge and willingness to help and raise awareness to others.


I am so sorry to hear about your current situation. I think that contacting the domestic abuse center is a very good option. They deal with situations like this and should have some resources available.
I have thought about you so many times and wondered how you were doing.
God this is so hard. My heart hurts for you because I know that you didn’t arrive where you are at today, with the ability to accept this about your son….. Without intense grief. And alot of shed tears.
And you are right…Even when you do accept this it is like a “darkness” that follows you and you can never get free from it. It even clouds over the happy moments in life. Mothers were not given what it takes to have no contact with their children. Its very un-natural to have this conflict inside of us.
You are doing the best you can in a difficult situation with your sons G/F. It is an addiction. Sometimes interventions work and sometimes they do not. Please take care of yourself.

I wish you well. Hugs to you.


Donna, Great, I got the girls email so that I can send her links. I will send this. Anyone else with links that will help, please send them. I will make sure she gets them!
Update- she said alittle bit ago that LF has helped her ALOT!
Thank God for this site! THank YOU DONNA.
Any suggestions on what to say or how to deal with him? As I type this, I am shaking my head. I am no newbie to dealing with this. So I guess I might as well erase this question. Talking to a S is like asking a snake not to bite you. You can do it til the cows come home, and it ain’t gonna stop ’em from their agenda. I know this, and yet I am still struggling with banding my son with the lot of the sociopaths, mentally meshing him with the likes of them.
As a woman of strong faith, I must face the reality of today,but never want to give up hope and the desperate desire for my son to be changed through faith, prayer, and God’s grace. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you facing these trials.


Witsend- Oh thank you so much. I think of you often, and your son as well. I would like to know how you are getting along. You have been thru sooo much and are still helping others so selflessly. You and I have been on this similar path awhile now and have seen how this progresses. It is a day to day journey. Sometimes I cry like a little baby about it, sometimes I am tough girl with anger issues. Its like Erin says you have to “try” to prepare yourself as best as one can. I will have to sign off for awhile now, but will be following up later tonight. Blessings to you all.


I still talk to my son….very openly and direct. About how the world views abusers and how it’s NOT okay to hurt/control/abuse anyone…..self included.
I try different angles,,,,,Him…others……..
I am not willing to ‘give up’ just yet, but I am trying to fine tune what my boundaries are.
Even if I say my peace….for MY benefit….because he won’t listen to anything I say… least I feel good about continuing to do what i should as a parent of a minor.
I know I get through to him, because I hear him counseling others …..I know he does get it at times….but the other times is what I worry about…..and those times provide his very poor choices that will hurt others and get him in trouble.

Good luck Sabrina…..and know….your in my thoughts…sending you mojo!!!

Here is the other BIG problem when standing up to an abuser in court. You have to have money and be willing to lose it.

I have now been in litigation with my ex for the past five years. (I thought it would take one year and a few hundred dollars to get a divorce – especially since I had a valid and legal separation agreement). How wrong I was. It has cost all of my savings, two properties, my health and my nerves – and as far as I can tell – he is broke as well.

But, he doesn’t care. He wants to see me lose my house…my income…my sanity. He knows every trick in the book as far as litigation goes…has switched lawyers…has pretended to suffer from a heart attack…works for a big fundraising firm and tells the attorneys that he is in Iraq saving children.

I honestly thought that my life was going to change if I stood up to him…but, it hasn’t. He is still planning my demise…and the courts don’t care. Everyone seem to think that it’s about money. The judges ruled against him…they warned him that if he doesn’t abide by the Separation agreement – he will end up in jail. Then, another year goes by. I have spent $150,000 on attorney fees and there is no end in sight.

After supporting him as a military wife…raising our two boys…and enduring his covert abuse (which turned into physical abuse before I locked him out of the house) for 30 years…I wanted to be free but, can’t find a way out of it. We were tied together with taxes…properties…military laws.
I didn’t see this coming. When I wanted a divorce – all hell broke lose. He purposefully and calculately planned every move to topple me over.

At this point I wonder if it wouldn’t have been better to take my money and disappear. Standing up to a Sociopath is a lonely and futile proposition. Every time I think it’s over – it isn’t. I told my attorney – from the very beginning – my ex has been diagnosed to be a Sociopath. He is dangerous…he will play mind games…he will come and go as he pleases…he will hide behind his job and feels entitled to break the law.

Attorneys don’t listen. They have heard similar accusations from every other disgruntled wife. Now – 3 years later – my attorney realizes what is going on. I can’t blame him – it took me 30 years.

I spent weeks compiling evidence of his abuse, his lies, fraud, e-mails, broken promises, affairs, etc. Nothing was ever introduced in court. In the end – it was all about the Separation Agreement. Lawyers don’t want to touch the abuse issues…and even if they did – it would cost a fortune – especially if you hire a really good one.

I have had zero contact with my ex. Saw him in court again last week. He is a pathetic excuse for a human being. Cold, calculated, arrogant. Normal people would worry about being thrown into jail. Not him. He thinks he is innocent, and has convinced himself that I am the problem. He wrote an e-mail recently that I will get what’s coming to me.

We never appeared in front of the judge last week…my ex told the lawyers that he is ready to end this…told them that he will sign on the dotted line. Then, he disappeared again.
I am sure he is claiming to be helping with the Haiti disaster.

This morning I received another piece of bad news. He will never know – but, there are times when I don’t think I can take one more thing. I wanted to be free of him – but, it doesn’t seem possible. On the positive side: I am still standing, and I have not lost my house.

I wish there were more sympathetic lawyers, judges, senators, etc… I wish there were laws that would help us…but, even if there were – who would pay for it?

The bottom line is – if your spouse, boyfriend, lover or ex is truly a Sociopath – get away from him…don’t file for divorce unless you are planning to re-marry. Leave your home and
get away from him/her as quickly and as quietly as you can. Spend your money on a good and supportive therapist instead of a lawyer.


It is a very valid point that you make here for other women going through this very same thing.
Sometimes it is in a persons best interest not to fight them in court. Because there is no winning. And in the end the price you pay isn’t worth it.
It is important to remember that all sociopaths are not “stupid” and impulsive. Some are very calculating.

I hope the end is in sight for you soon.

Ox Drover

Dear Petra,

Sometimes walking away upright is the best option, as they do not care that they “cut their own noses off to spite their faces” as long as “You lose” they think that means that they won. DUH????? Makes no sense in a normal mind, but only in theirs. They are willing to die in order to kill you. God bless you in your struggle with this monster. (((Hugs))))


Petra60, I am sorry to hear about your bad situation. S just are hellbent to win without any moral compass or impulse control , no matter how money, time, and energy it cost. It is like a game to them, using monopoly money with no reality base. They make no real future plans, no thought of tomorrow, just the greed and deception of the day.


My S son’s g.f. did go to court yesterday, and acquired the protection order for one year which I am relieved to hear.
He received a slap on the wrist- anger management classes with his guilty charge of physical abuse. But the goal of trying to protect the g.f. and her beginning to stay NC has been established.Unfortunately, it will be up to her to enforce the NC- laws are made to be broken in his eyes, so the protection order means nothing to him.


You know what really helped me with NC……it was the Extended Order of protection…..
The judge/police/therapist all made it VERY CLEAR….that I Cannot contact him either….
The greater distance I had from the S, the more clear I was able to see the light….the more I saw the reality, the more disgusted I got…..
IT is imperative GF follows through!!! THIS IS NO JOKE.
If she sneaks around to see him…..there are 2 problems……
He will turn his manipulations on her and she will lose all credibility…….
AND he can set her up to just ‘come over’ for a minute, no one will know……I love you type scenario in a weak moment……and call the police ON HER………
At this point in my life…..TPO time……I was VERY afraid of him ‘getting even’ and I had lost ALL TRUST IN HIM. I knew he would have LOVED to of had me arrested……
One of his cries is, I cant believe she called the police on me…..I can’t believe kids called police on me…..I DID NOTHING WRONG! Oh, this was …….I would NEVER call the police on my family…….NO ONE does that!
This told me that if he had ANY reason…….he would grab the opportunity…….AND I DIDN”T WANT TO SEE IT GET WORSE!!!!

So…..I hope, for herself and for other victims of DV…….that she follows through to a T and respects the order in the spirit it was meant…….and doesn’t invalidate it with the police and courts and dv advocates by sneaking around with an abuser.
She must call police even if he calls her…..It’s a court ordered NC order!!!!! Drives by her house, work, contacts friends to send messages…….even if it seems trivial….she needs to file a police report…….SHE MUST!!!
This is why these things are in place……TO PROTECT US!!!
It’s not a golden fence…..but they can work well if WE use it in the spirit it was set up……

I’m really glad she was in court….and it angers me to no end to send an abuser to anger management…….FORCED!
Well….maybe he will be the odd abuser and WANT TO CHANGE!!!!
But…..i’ts on his record now…..and he better stop collecting DV charges……..COPS DON”T LIKE THAT, either do judges!!!!

And I hope to god…..this relationship is OVER!!!!!

Darlen…..if your reading this……please keep reading on LF and educating yourself on abusive relationships……it’s a screwed situation to be in…..but your 19 years old….DONT” WAIT FOR 28 years To REALIZE……that your married to a peice of shit…..LIKE I DID!!!!
You really do have your whole life before you…….take control and steer clear of these types of relationships!!!

Use this time for YOU……get into therapy and the right man will come along one day!!!!



Wow, great article! I haven’t been able to be around the past few days and there’s much happening on here.

EB: Right on, girl! I am praying, sabrina, that this young woman gets it NOW as opposed to later after he has taken everything she has and is. It’s a wonderful opportunity for her to learn some very valuable lessons at a young age. Getting the order was a HUGE step that she was abused and now the justice system knows it as well.
EB, you nailed it when you talked about those quick little intervals of “love” they try and coerce you into. Mine made up excuses; he HAD to have this or that as part of his property was still in my home. I got around that by telling him to pick it up at the neighbors if it was so almighty important. They will try ANYTHING and when one is vulnerable, BAM, they are back in. Once I learned the “game”, and that’s all it is, the whole picture changed. I recently had my protection order made permanent. I did this in fear that at some point he would, and he really thinks he has the right to do this, just walk as if he’d been on a business trip.
The greatest gift we can give ourselves is education and finding others who get where we have been. Coming to LF has been one of the greatest steps I ever made in my recovery. I learn more from those who have been where I’m at than from anyone else.

Petra, I agree with Ox on just walking away. In their need to get even with us, most are more than willing to go down themselves. In my case, my ex TOLD me that if he had to lose it all, he would make sure I did as well, regardless of the fact that we have a young son together. He didn’t care if he took his own child down! That’s how vicious they are. It’s not what you’re walking away from, it’s what you’re walking towards; a new life, a new self and peace within.


Well that is good news that the order of protection is in place. And hopefully she is in the “right place” to let the protection order do what it is suppose to do.
Unfortunately she might not be ready for complete N/C either. It is pretty likely that he will try to work around the PO, if he is still under the misconception that the “rules” don’t apply to him. So the burden to follow through and enforce will be on her. She is so young to really understand to the full extent. That he will NOT change. Even after all she has been through. Domestic violence is really hard to wrap your brain around and get away from. The bondage. The addiction to the abuser. Its all so complex.
I hope she is a strong young woman and can use this order to help herself to stay N/C with your son. That would be a blessing.

How about you? How are you feeling now?

Thanks for everyone’s comments. OxDrover called him a “Monster”…I never thought of him that way – but, it fits.
I should have walked away – but, I wasn’t possible. In this day and age – the IRS, the attorneys, the banks, your ex – can find you.

He agreed to a separation and a divorce…he signed a fair and logical separation agreement…he found himself a young girlfriend…and I was trying to move on with my life. For all intensive purposes – it looked like just another divorce. But, he didn’t see it that way. He was out to destroy me, and was planning to do it in small increments. The biggest problem was that we were tied together with taxes and three properties.

It took three years to get him to hand over our 2006 and 2007 tax returns…He produced the final copies two days before we went to trial August 09…I had to pay $10,000 in back taxes…made a check out to the IRS…handed it to my attorney and I thought everything was taken care of. As a result – it was never addressed in court. The judge was not happy with my ex nor his lawyer…by the end of the day – I won on all counts. My ex owed me $150,000 in arrearages, I was to receive alimony directly from his employer…half of his military pension…his life insurance policies…was allowed to keep my home…etc. Great news – but, how does one enforce it? Who is going to arrest him if he doesn’t comply?
More litigation, more money, more stress. He is counting on me giving up eventually. If it had not been for my therapist’s encouragement – I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. I am not sure what that would have meant – because the IRS was going to come knocking on my door eventually.

We were divorced in Dec. 2008 and I filed my own taxes in 2009. I was expecting a refund of $600…The IRS informed me that I would not be receiving that refund because we still owed $6,000 in back taxes. In other words – my ex did not pay his share of the back taxes. Grrr.

The separation agreement clearly states that we will sell our townhouse once our son moves out. (Mischa – our 29 year old – is as abusive and devious as my ex – and didn’t tell me that he was moving. Not only that – but, he left behind a huge mess – for me to clean up.)

The townhouse needed to be sold – but, my ex wouldn’t agree to having it renovated…wouldn’t sign the listing agreement…disappeared for months and refused to pay one half of the mortgage… So – I had to go back to court.

Two weeks ago – five minutes before we had to appear in front of the judge – he handed me a signed listing agreement -but, after checking – it turned out that it was all wrong. We pinned him down to sign the right papers. He was mad as hell. Then, he agreed to sign a Quit claim deed for the townhouse and my house in exchange for all the arrearages he owes me. The court appearance was canceled.

I was elated…got my hopes up…met with the attorneys …thousands of dollars later – he didn’t sign anything and disappeared again. He works for Project Hope as one of the top two executives and is probably claiming that he is busy saving the wounded in Haiti.

So – here I am. The townhouse has been renovated – which I had to pay for… I have been paying the mortgage…and found out yesterday that neither my ex nor my son have been paying the HOA fees… Now that the townhouse is up for Sale and my ex has not signed a Quitclaim deed – the realtor needs more documents signed – and my ex has disappeared again. End result – more legal fees.

The sale of the townhouse is the only way I can pay back legal fees. It was supposed to be my investment for my old age. My ex is making damn sure that I won’t have a penny left.

I am not really sure what I am trying to say. My story is not much different than all the other stories I’ve read on Lovefraud. It is a travesty that so many men (and women) can get away with treating human beings with such disdain and hatred. The legal system is overburdened…the judges don’t want to hear the gory details of bad marriages…the attorneys stay busy gathering evidence, typing up briefs, negotiating, and making their clients wait.

My lawyer (who is one of the most respected divorce attorneys in the Washington D.C. area) commented recently that I should have seen this coming. Why? How? Should I have studied law in order to get a divorce? I didn’t have a clue about depositions, subpaenaes, hearings, trials, etc. I was under the mistaken assumption that my attorney was going to look out for my best interest and stand on the side of truth and justice. When I filed for divorce – I was told that it was going to be a piece of cake – and would not cost more than $5,000 (as if that was nothing)…3 years and $150,000 later – I am still involved and have to endure my ex husband’s mind games.

The gall of that “monster” to show up in court for the fourth time (we didn’t think he would because the judge threatened to throw him into jail)…but, then, he promised to make a deal and end this nightmare. Before I could tell the attorneys involved that this was just another one of his stalling tactics – they were talking to the judge and canceled the appointment.

The offer was a joke, not worth the paper it was written on.
I don’t understand why the lawyers put up with it.

Over and over and over again. He dupes everyone.
I have a feeling that he will never be done with me. Like Sabrina said: He thinks that he is winning. Nobody knows what that means. He lost everything…I lost everything…our boys are suffering. What happened to all of us being entitled to the pursuit of happiness?

Ox Drover

Dear Petra,

Your X sounds so TYPICAL of a psychopath, causing problems as revenge and generally getting away with it….at least unless YOU spend money to ENFORCE it…next time, you might ask for attorneys fees since he did not comply and get a garnishment on his wages, there is also the turning him over to a collection agency. they will take a percentage of what they collect, but they HOUND THEM very well. Check it out, since it is quite a large sum they might be very interested. Him having a job that they can file garnishment on and they KNOW THE ROPES, so that might be better than messing with it yourself. 50% of something is better than 100% of NOTHING.

His behavior is just so out “of the psychopath’s play book”–it is on page 157, first paragraph “screw them anyway you can, delay delay delay and don’/t keep your word about anything, even if the court orders it.”

I’m sorry you are having these problems but “it isn’t personal” really they treat everyone that way. Lie lie lie! HE IS THE LIE! (((hugs)))) and my prayers.


You know it really just kind of boils down to control, doesn’t it? Even though you are legally divorced you can’t really move on. One way or the other he is in contol of your money. EVEN your income tax return. He does feel like he is “winning”. He must feel like he has control of everyone involved.
He has everyone jumping through hoops trying to get him to sign a peice of paper and he manages not to, and disappears instead. Its to bad the judge didn’t throw him in jail.

I would say that the lawyers put up with this because, even though they might see they have been duped, the longer this goes on, the more money in their pockets.
However it would seem to me that the judge would see this through a different perspective.

Why do you think that the judge hasn’t put his foot down? (or gavel) Any person in their right mind wouldn’t play such games in a court room. Just shows you the gall of the sociopath.
I am sorry that you have to go through this. It must be awful.


Witsend, Thanks for asking, I am doing ok. My life has so many twists and turns right now with personal, business, and everything in between that it seems I can’t focus too hard on one thing before another “thing” jumps in front of me! Maybe that is what is keeping my sanity-diverse chaos! Since it is no shock to me now, maybe it is “predictable chaos!” lol

I am keeping lines of communication open with his x GF, and no communication with him is my goal. He lied to me, and denied the abuse – of course- WHY tell the truth when the lie sounds so ridiculous!?!
I know it is hard for her as you said Witsend, to wrap your head around the whole reality of it all- I am struggling and I KNOW how life with an S works or better yet- dosen’t work.

I believe the no conscience part of them enables them to lie mercilessly and so much more convincingly. I’ve read that most people when lying have a certain pattern they will typically do that can tip you off that they are lying. Particularly helpful with children and teenagers- If you “crack the code” and hone in on the individuals unique tendency- Such as a tendency to “always” give more information than needed, or a pattern of “never” giving many details, or even starting an arguement to avoid confrontation when they are not being truthful. Talking slowly, while looking away (to stall while thinking of a plausible story or alibe) or others may be prone to talking fast, (indicating nervousness and insincerity).
With all the S that I have known, I could see no common pattern indicative of being untruthful- OTHER than the fact that his whole life IS a pattern indicative of untruth.

Petra60- Oh my gosh! You have been thru it! I can see how frustrating and god awful expensive this has been- not only financially draining, but mentally, physically, and emotionally. It makes me sick to think of you having to go thru all of this grief and drama.

Just makes you kinda fantasize that there is an extra HOT seat in hell with him being assigned to it…a little note saying.. Just for you, since you were MEANER than Hell, this special seating is especially for you and is HOTTER than HELL!:)


ignore theodore – posts have been reported.


So one step … did you see those cumulous clouds the other night?: They totally covered the moon – like a marshmallow over a night light – beautiful!


I did! nothing like a great night sky. The stars are really bright tonight. One thing about living in the country, you get to see the stars come out shining bright.


And we really know what they look like now even when shrouded in a cloud of horse shite 🙂


well, it’s the cats…the keep dragging in dead things and knocking over all my lovely tropicals….


time for me to sign out. you going to be here for awhile polly?

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