By | January 18, 2010 215 Comments

The psychopathic personality and human evolution

Dr. Robert Hare, who did seminal work in identifying psychopaths, refers to them as “intraspecies predators.” This prompted questions from a Lovefraud reader who asked,

  • If psychopaths are indeed natural predators (by implication, their design is part of nature’s plan to maintain some balance) then would we ever be able to weed them out of society?
  • Do they have a purpose in the natural order of things?

In this article, I’m going to address the second question. Then, next week, I’ll suggest an answer to the first question.

I don’t know about a purpose, but there are researchers who believe psychopaths are around us today because they survived the natural selection process of human evolution.

These researchers call psychopathy “a nonpathological, reproductively viable, alternate life history strategy.” This theory is outlined in Coercive and Precocious Sexuality as a Fundamental Aspect of Psychopathy, a paper published in 2007 by Grant T. Harris, PhD; Marnie E. Rice, PhD; N. Zoe Hilton, PhD; Martin L. Lalumiere, PhD; and Vernon L. Quinsey, PhD.


Let’s talk about the evolution idea first. The authors write that our distant ancestors probably formed stable groups, characterized by cooperation and adherence to rules, which enabled early mankind to survive and flourish. However, some humans survived through cheating and exploiting others—the alternative life strategy.

Grant et. al. write that from childhood, psychopathic personalities are fundamentally different from others, but the differences are not the result of a medical failure or injury. They point out that pregnancy difficulties can be related to schizophrenia and mental retardation, but not psychopathy. “While many adverse medical conditions and injuries lead to antisocial and violent behavior, our selectionist hypothesis suggests that they do not cause psychopathy,” they write.

The early psychopaths—cheaters then as now—put a lot of energy into acquiring sexual partners, and were willing to use deception and coercion to do it. As a result, they produced a lot of offspring. Even if early psychopaths died young because then, as now, they probably engaged in high-risk behavior, their liberal procreation was enough to get the hereditary train rolling.

Sex and criminal behavior

Psychopaths first have sex at a young age, have many partners, and are uncommitted in sexual relationships. Studies show that people who have this approach to sex also are more likely to engage in criminal and violent behavior.

Some people, called life course persistent offenders, Grant et. al. write, “begin aggressive and antisocial conduct at very young ages and persist at rates higher than any other offenders throughout the lifespan.”

People tend to think that their problem is poor social learning, that individuals who break laws against crime and violence also break social norms regarding sex. But research has also shown that delinquency and antisocial behavior are associated with early onset of puberty and sexual activity. Young people don’t learn, or decide, when to mature sexually. So why is there a connection between early onset of puberty and crime?

The study

Grant et. al. believe that “coercive and precocious sexuality” is not a result of the psychopathic personality, but a key to defining it. For the study described in the paper, the researchers predicted “early onset, high frequency and coercive sexuality would be a key, unique and diagnostic feature of psychopathy.”

The researchers studied the case histories of 512 male sex offenders. (Sex offenders were selected because their files generally contain detailed information about their sexual history.) They established the scores of the offenders on the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). They also looked at the sexual histories of the offenders prior to age 15. A statistical analysis revealed correlations between early and frequent sexual behavior and sexual coercion with general antisocial behavior and elevated PCL-R scores.

“We propose that interpersonal sexual and nonsexual aggression are not best conceived of as the consequence of psychopathic personality traits, but as fundamental aspects of the condition itself,” the authors wrote.

Genetic history

The researchers’ expected that coercive and precocious sexuality were indicators of psychopathy because of their original hypothesis—psychopathy is an alternative life strategy.

“From a theoretical perspective, the present results lend some support to a selectionist hypothesis that psychopathy exists because it has been a heritable and reproductively viable condition during human evolution.”

Psychopaths, in other words, are not physically defective or medically ill. These researchers believe that they are just different, and, because they engaged in a lot of sex, were able to pass on their genes through the millennia.

Read the complete study:

Coercive and Precocious Sexuality as a Fundamental Aspect of Psychopathy

They are what they are

It’s shocking to think that there may be nothing medically wrong with these “intraspecies predators.” But in a way, the idea that psychopaths are pursuing an “alternate life history strategy” dovetails with what we often say here on Lovefraud. Psychopaths are what they are. They are cheaters and exploiters. They take advantage of others because that’s what they do.

Did nature intend this? I don’t know, but they survived.

While researching this story, I came across another paper with an interesting perspective on what to do about it, which I’ll discuss next week.

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I find this subject fascinating. After my encounter with a sociopath (over three years ago) the evolution thing became interesting to me again.

But the thing to remember about evolution is there *isn’t* a purpose to it. There’s no idea of ‘design’ – simply, the things that survive are those most fitted to their environment. This led to lots of people, Darwin included, being concerned about political ideas such as Social Darwinism, focussing on the idea of a ‘nature red in tooth and claw’; in effect, a breeding ground for sociopaths.

However, things have moved on a bit since then in gene theory, and I really recommend the work of Richard Dawkins for the most wonderful and vivid explorations of this. One of the reason I think Dawkins’ ‘The Selfish Gene’ is such a moving book, is because it explains, via game theory, that altruism is the best strategy. Over time (and not just over a short spell, i.e. I’ll scratch your back you scratch mine) a co-operative ‘strategy’ is the one that pays dividends in survival terms.

So…with any luck, the sociopath is an endangered species. But…we’ll have to wait a bit!

I also agree that this is a fascinating approach to looking at psychopathy. And recommend The Selfish Gene, for its explorations of selfishness vs. altruism.

Although, I want to respectfully add that altruism was not the successful strategy in Dawkins’ models, but “enlightened altruism.” The model was designed by looking a monkeys (chimps) whose mutual grooming behavior removed lice and other insect predators that could affect the monkey’s likelihood of survival. (Dawkin’s models all examined how behavior affected survival outcomes, not for the individuals but for the genes they carried.)

If all the monkeys were altruistic and groomed each other, everyone thrived equally. But if only one selfish monkey (one who took grooming but did not return it), that monkey would have more time to spend on other survival enhancing behaviors, like obtaining food and caring for its young. So that appears, at first, to be a more successful strategy for genetic survival. However, in being more successful That genetic strain of selfish monkeys would eventually reproduce more, and over time there would be no altruists left, and the selfish monkeys would also die off for lack of anyone to groom them. (These were fairly simple computer models, just testing certain ideas that might also be found in game theory.)

Given like likelihood that selfish monkeys might show up in any group, Dawkins found the most stable situation was enlightened altruism. Which was that altruistic monkeys groomed another monkey once. If that monkey did not groom in return, the altruistic monkey never groomed that one again.

Obviously the selfish monkey could move on to get groomed once by other enlightened altruist monkeys, but only once. Eventually the survival advantage gained by being selfish would would run into the wall of no more first-time altruists to hit. And the gene, in this model, would lose its survival advantage and die out. At least in that monkey, but that attraction of enlightened altruism is that the principle continues to serve as a good survival strategy, if other selfish monkeys who up. And it creates a clear recognition of community among the monkeys who knew they could depend on each other.

The book also includes an analysis of fidelity vs. promiscuity as a genetic survival strategy. He got in a lot of trouble with feminists for that one.

Thanks again, Liane, for a very interesting post.



Right off the bat, I see holes in this theory. If psychopathy is nothing more than an alternate “species” of human, a totally selfish way of living, in which altruism, loving relationships, bonded committed sexuality are replaced by full out self-interest and sexual promscuity, as just an alternate strain in evolution, then I would have to ask where all the other abnormalities fit into the psychopathic portrait.

What about addiction? From everything that I’ve read about and experienced with those that fit the criteria for psychopathy, they all have problems with addiction and substance abuse. This doesn’t fit with a true self interested survival mode.

What about poor impulse control? Optimal survival, to anyone with at least an average intelligence, presupposes the ability to control ones impulses on a daily basis.

What about the distorted thinking patterns? Sure, there are some higher functioning and more self aware psychopaths that use the games of projecting and push and pull as a weapon to weaken and make someone they want to use submissive. But, I would argue that most if not all of the distorted thinking of P’s, especially Cluster B’s comes from something inherently WRONG with them that cannot just be explained away by an alternate survivalist species theory.

There is paranoia.
There is poor language ability (in so far as confusing or not “getting” the MEANING of words and language).
There are memory problems and distortion.
There is self sabotage (how would you explain that one?)
There is the INABILITY (NOT an unwillingness) to see something from anyone else’s perspective (to step in the other’s shoes). It can be argued that THAT is a survival tool as well as a cognitive ability that when missing shows a definite disorder, not just an alternate species.

Those are just a few points off the top of my head.

Does the author discuss higher levels of testosterone at all and how this might influence psychopathy?

Also, there is a passage in Martha Stout’s book, “The Sociopath Next Door” that talks about the John Bowlby’s study on attachment disorder. Personally, and I’m no expert, but from my experience, many of the behaviors that I witnessed and lived with, with a sociopath can CLEARLY be seen as an extreme reaction to lack of attachment or bonding as an infant.

This is an interesting article. I’d like to read Dawkin’s book.

Also, as a last point – I think altruism is being used incorrectly in a few instances here. Altruism is something you do without ANY self interest, which includes the supposition that you will get something in return. What’s been described as altruism, is actually just give and take social contract, not true selfless altruism.

According to Mirriam-Webster, the second definition of altruism is:

behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

Ox Drover

Dear Dr. Leedom,

A fabulous article and while I know that you agree with me that genetics is NOT “everything” I think we both agree that it does have a large genetic component as demonstrated by quite a few studies, and by my own genetic history of psychopaths who were not raised by their psychopathic genetic donors, and of psychopaths who were raised by non-psychopathic individuals. (As well as the “identical twins raised separately” study.

I also see many benefits for the psychopath especially in an earlier civilization where the leaders and rulers were the “biggest, meanest guys on the block” who took what they wanted by force, which included more food and more women in which to spread their genetics further and wider, with “rulers” have access to hundreds of women while slaves and less powerful men might actually have little or no access to women.

In situations where food supply was limited which until modern times in this age was ALWAYS the case due to poor ways of preserving foodstuffs, the psychopath would I think, have been the one to “help himself” to a plenitude of food at the expense of others.

Being high risk takers, early to physically and sexually mature would give a decided advantage I would think in the P spreading genetic material widely, giving his genes more chance of surviving in an age when there was a high rate of infant and child death due to disease and malnutrition.

Thank you for this very very interesting information, and I do know that YOU ARE the expert on this subject due to education and interest as well as personal experience.


Very interesting article – thanks for picking up on this topic.

I’ve been kind of interested in this whole 2012 thing, and in my spare time, I contemplate what would happen if the earth went through a terrific geologic upheaval. Would humans survive? Perhaps some would; most likely, the ones who would really survive would be the ones who are capable of withstanding some pretty awful stuff without any emotional repercussions – thus, it would be the psychopaths/sociopaths, etc.

And then I guess we’d be dealing with Kathleen’s paradigm of the Selfish Monkey vs. the Altruistic Monkey.

Gotta say – I was the altruistic monkey picking the lice out of my selfish monkey’s fur. I did it right up until the time I fled. I think he considered me an enlightened altruistic monkey. Now he considers me a deserter, and probably the greatest sinner of all. I often wonder: if he and I got into a fight, who would survive? If it were a battle of wits, it would be me. If it were a physical battle, I’m not quite so sure. . .


Louise. LOL I can’t picture you as a monkey.


I’m the monkey that was hiding in the little monkey cave, reading a book, while my brother threw banana peels at anyone who looked at him cross-eyed.


I think that there are more and more revealing themselves in this time frame of history.. and think about it.. seems like they have many children.. married many times, and children with several people.

They have been here since the beginning of time…

The deal is our awareness of them.. wise as serpents.. gentle as lambs…


Louise, since we don’t know what members look like, now I have a striking visual of you in my mind 🙂 ha ha ha


Isn’t this also what Martha Stout believes. She mentions the high proportion of sociopaths in the Middle East who have ancestry from Genghis Khan, the famous sociopath during the crusades. I tend to agree with this theory because it makes sense to me. I also think that sociopathic behaviors can be the result of environmental influences or some combination, but that heredity is a large function of it.


I see it more as a spiritual evolution. How would we know what love is, how would we learn about love and compassion, empathy and human-ness if we also did not have amongst us those who show us the other side of the coin.

They have perhaps chosen to come here to teach lessons about valuing love above all, which is never more felt than when we or loved ones are hated, murdered, robbed etc etc

Without the other side of the coin we would not grow and learn how to deal with the opposite energy. For whatever there is there is it’s opposite. Light dark etc. so the survival value is not for themselves surviving and taking over, but more towards waking us up to the power of love and transmuting it
(Jesus and the crucifiction, initiation ceremony, Birth and death)

My respect for love has tripled since my experience with the psychopath, and as I get more distance from him, each day gets more precious…I have learned, deeply.

I watched a programme about a month ago. A guy who had survived a serial killer by sheer chance. He had been submerged in water as the killer attempted to drown him.He accepted his death many times over and was horribly injured and the killer decided for some unknown reason to let him go. He spoke with the most compelling voice. He had a kind of radiance about him, a quality of strength aquired through accepting his fate.

He now lives on his own with his cats and wouldn’t trust a relationship again but he was so full of truth and wisdom it was like listening to an angel he was so….I don’t know illuminated!
And listen to the voices on Lovefraud….we are base metal being ground into gold.

I’m not suggesting psychopaths are gifts, I am terrified of them and do not want anything to do with them ever again, but the only thing I want to take from my experience is I don’t understand it and possibly wont until death, and until then I just want to spend the rest of my life knowing that I am here in the midst of light and dark, and every day I choose the light.

I have 6 months no contact and dare I say life is brighter, lighter in every way like a horrible weight lifted. A weight I will never forget, that has me living alone with my cats but the beauty I find in that is a direct result of having learned an excrutiating lesson from which I am only beginning to emerge.

If he appeared around the corner tomorrow I would fight him off with my life, I would sound every alarm bell, tell as many people and even move to where he could never find me.


Oh and just to say, as it stands out as important. The guy who survived the serial killer was deeply haunted and traumatised, and he felt compelled to visit the killer in jail (death row) and to ask him why…why he did it? and why did he not kill him ? can you imagine the courage it took for him to go and confron this guy….and the killer started talking bout how bad the food was in prison. Yes he could only talk about prison and what it was like for him!! and he wouldnt answer. More torture.

Donna, apologies for miscrediting this to Dr. Leedom. It’s a wonderful article and a fascinating topic.



I am wondering something … whether psychopathy really is a good trait for spreading one’s genes. I would imagine a lot of women wouldn’t go ahead if the P was already unreliable?


The article and subsequent thread is SO interesting for me. I have a gut feeling that the genetic transmission of psychopathy is valid. As to it being better or worse, I am not sure, but it feels part of a bigger cycle of genetic survival (I ordered the selfish gene book, hope it educates me, as I know little about genetics/evolution). Perhaps it waxes and wanes, depending on a number of variables (like proportion of psycho’s to non-psycho’s, non-psycho ‘awareness’), that may continue to repeat, ad nauseum.

It seems like the thrust of the research was to influence the components of the PCL-R test, so it works better. And perhaps also to lend credence to the ‘strategist’ theory/model (whatever it is, I don’t know about it!) in psychology. It certainly didn’t seem to be pointing to ‘normalizing’ psychopathy, or trying to lessen it’s perceived seriousness and consequence to society.

Though it is a bit difficult for me to allow myself to see psychopathy as a ‘survival’ strategy, after experiencing it as so personally devastating–it does make sense. After all most viruses eventually kill individual hosts, and survive well and fine. And the ability of the spathole I knew, to survive (though not genuinely thrive) is pretty awesome (in a “I cannot believe this shit!” kind of way). Given how rudimentary his skills, his acheivements, and his communications were/are, it is amazing that he can, again and again, use the same techniques and live almost exclusively as a parasite. Hand to mouth though it is, he ensures his personal survival. Interesting to think this may likely be driven by thousands of years of genetic impulse to procreate and ensure the survival of ‘his’ particular gene-set.

But it brings up some interesting questions:

1. Will it take an imbalance of psychopaths to non-psychopaths before the genetic strategy for survival is tipped the other way, with a period of die-off? As in too many psychos vs. non, so that they don’t have enough sources to ensure their gene survival, and the pendulum swings the other direction, with more procreation of nons?

OR, rather than waiting for natural selection…….

2. Could this mean that they are here to stay till we nons become ‘enlightened altruists’, essentially learning to go ‘no contact’ (quit grooming after the first time of no reciprocity)? Meaning that non-psychopaths could have, over a Loooooong Period of Time, an effect on the elimination of psychopathic genes, but only through sustained enlightenment and self preserving/loving behaviors?

Either way it is withdrawing the sources of survival for the psychopath, either by waiting for nature to take it’s course, or by consciousness enhancement and proactive behavior. Perhaps spreading ‘civility’ (food, shelter, medicine, etc) for all is another key. Giving each individual the opportunity to look beyond survival, toward ‘higher’ self-actualizing goals (Maslow’s hierarchy).

I like the second option, as I don’t know if nature would eliminate the gene, or if we would end up in an endless cycle of booming #’s of spatholes, followed by die-off….wash, rinse, repeat.

Donna, really looking forward to the next article. This has my brainjuices flowing!


Ox Drover

Apologies, Donna!!

Some of the reading I have done about altruistic vs selfish monkeys and apes, (wish I could remember WHERE I read it) says that the FEAR of revenge, rather than altruistic impulse, is more the reason why an ape will reciprocate with grooming or sharing of food etc.

Jane Goodall’s research seems to bear this out as well. Plus, there are also “psychopathic” and deliberately cruel apes as well as humans. Dominance behavior can be very cruel.

If you look at what happened in Haiti today with looting, gangs taking over some areas, and increasing robberies, you will see what happens when resources are in scant supply–the strong take from the weaker. Though there is a tremendous outpouring of altruism in the people going there to help and in the native populations helping each other, there is also a rising level of violence and “dog-eat-dog” survival tactics. My prediction is that it will get worse before it gets better, and only a strong level of police action will have any impact on these human predators who will prey on the weaker people.

My heart breaks for this country and those that are the “prey” of the smaller percentage of human predators.


Slimone – I like the point you make about Maslow’s hierarchy. My experience has shown me that they live in the lower spectrum of self actualization, as if in a pre-civilized survival mode that they are incapable of rising above. One of the things the ex sociopath from my own life repeated constantly after I left him was the word “survive”. Everything was and still is and I’m pretty certain, for ever will be for him, about sheer survival, without conscience.

pollyannanomore – I find your theory of abortions very interesting. The other woman the exSpath I was with got pregnant with him. She aborted. Why she did this I can’t be sure, since I haven’t asked her. But, I know this – He HATES kids, has never had any of his own and makes it clear he does not want kids. He does, however target women who are already mothers knowing, I’m sure that it’s a way of control and manipulation.

bulletproof – I find wisdom in what you’ve written. I do believe that there is good and evil or light and dark in this world. I also believe that the dark or evil that psychopaths embody teach us how to get in touch with what we need to strengthen in ourselves – THE LIGHT.

Lastly, I would like to say something about selfishness and altruism. I don’t think it’s an either/or thing. I do believe that’s where a lot of the answers lie in the battle that psychopaths put us in. I am moving toward an understanding of a an enlighened middle ground between total selfishness and unprotective altruism. There IS such a thing as enlightened altruism, that does not do harm to oneself. This type of altruism would be balanced with a HEALTHY SELF INTEREST or selfishness. At least, this is what I’ve learned.



I watched a documentary on similar topic.
It was about monkey research…actually orangatangs…
in the end….the bully, alphas died due to Turboculosis.
the whole tribe got into an abandoned camp and ravaged through tainted tossings…..
the alphas had spent their lives being mean ot all others and not ‘giving’ , grooming others, stealing food etc…Most of the tribe got sick, but the research showed only the alpha bullies died…..because no other Orangatanges helped them out in time of need…..
I thought this interesting and could easily apply to humans…..


Too bad Australia is already inhabited. There would be a perfect solution. There’s always Siberia hmm 🙂


Ican – the issue of abortion is huge with these guys – trauma bonding big time.


One of the kids told me today that the S told them all they were not wanted!
EEEsssh! They said, mom there’s a lot we haven’t told you…..and 2 said they went througha period of not seeing thepoint of life…..because they were NEVER WANTED!

I have a picture of my very good friend who passed in June of 09…..I was working with him at the time i got preggers first time…..The kids adored this guy….he was a keeper!!! for sure!!! But as I saw him looking at me from the picture It borught me to tears wishing he was here to talk to the kids about the JOY he saw in me when I was preggers.
He never had kids, and he said I was the only pregger woman he knew ‘closely’ and went through the pregnacies with from the inside/outside…..
It breaks my heart to know the kids were told this…..what a fucker…..I WANTED THE KIDS…….and I have always been here for my kids!!!! ALWAYS…….and how could he plant any seeds of doubt of that in little-formitable heads and hearts…..

They said they never realized how much those words affected them……
He told them I shoulda had an abortion. the kids said they were taught IN SCHOOL….that abortion wasn’t acceptable in the 80’s and 90’s?????? Where did this info come from…..
so that is why I didn’t have an abortion.
I told the kids, I had never had an abortion and I was very grateful I had never been in that position to ‘chose’ what to do…..but after the S and I married, bought a house,etc….there was no reason to even consider it when I got preggers. the kids were shocked to hear we were married when the oldest was conceived??????
Hellooo……do the math>>>> They thought we got married because I was preggers….???? S told them that too????
I said, no….we were married in May of 1990…..and eldest was born in May of 1992?
It goes to show… don’t investigate any facts for themselves if they have no ‘reason’ to….it’s all taken as stated.
He also told one kid that he wasn’t his father…..Jack Daniells was his real father. So that kid now has the percetion he was only a drunken afterthgouth……

Times like this…..when I know the kids are hurting……is when I just KNOW Karma will kick him in the ASS hard…..and as due!

It’s sick how they re write history.

Yeah…..he wanted abortion…..I didn’t even consider it an option……and It made me sick to think of it……he wanted it as a form of BC…..uh sorry….

Talk about stick the knife in!


oh mannn polly 🙁 they are sick creeps!!! they really do put the boot in when we’re down (((hugs))) It’s despicable.

The one I was with was using both me and another woman at the same time. I’ve no doubt that she has her own trauma to deal with. They leave a trail of devastation wherever they go, not only with us but with the kids too.

EB – I’m saddened reading your story 🙁 I’m out of words to describe the abuse. I just keep coming back to evil. My mother did the same kind of shit to me and my siblings. The stuff that monster said to us is beyond comprehension.


Ick Erin – what a bastard doing that. they sure do leave trails of devastation behind them while they skip off to the next target.


Makes me wonder whether that has anything to do with gender ratios in sociopaths – Females benefit less reproductively from being promiscuous(since they can only have one every 9 months anyway) and the offspring harmed more by abusive tendencies. Just wondering.


In evolutionary terms there are a number of ways to ensure the survival of a species. Two such examples are animals that nurture and protect their young, while others have as many young as possible, thus increasing the possibility that at least some would survive.

The first example provides protection in a social background to ensure survival by encouraging close family groups while the second relies purely on having as many sexual partners as possible with little or no interaction afterwards. This second method, not only discourages active social participation but such participation would be anathema to it.

As with most species, humans have evolved over time and it could well be that, amongst many other evolutionary tactics, these two methods above have been utilised in the past. The most successful being the one, more or less used in the majority of case today. Why is it the most successful? Simply because it is the most used. However, in order for an evolutionary tactic to survive, all that is required is pro-creation. Thus the second method is not, in evolutionary terms, a bad one in that is does ensure the survival of our species.

Evolution is not a personal thing, it has no personality, trends come and more successful ones stay, while the evolutionary dead ends die out. Nature does not choose, it reacts to the environment and the biological beings within that environment to produce beings that are varied and adaptive to certain key elements within that environment, with the occasional mutation thrown into the mix.

So, in evolutionary terms, the sexual predator, as we may call them, survives because they fulfill the most basic requirement of evolution, the propagation of the species.

I can think of a few precise examples in a modern context where, having a cold blooded, remorseless creature can be an advantage. If there was a natural disaster of 2012 (the film) proportions, who better to ensure the survival of the human race than someone who is not beset by morals, who does not ponder what others will think, who does not second guess themselves but who acts decisively and without remorse? Who better to decide to leave behind the old, the wounded and the infirm because, in those conditions, they would pose a very real threat to the survival of the group as a whole? These would most likely be the short term qualities required should such a disaster befall this planet.

I am not saying that this is so, I am merely suggesting the possibility. In our present context, as we are, certainly in the West, relatively war and disaster free, they are the aberrations. Those that do not fit into the human social model, though they survive relatively well in it all the same.

Perhaps in dealing with these people, we should take a leaf out of natures book and treat them as we would any threat to our survival, something to be avoided. In order to avoid a danger, it is necessary to first perceive it. Learn to “see” them so that you can avoid them. Learn the skills necessary to survive the occasional confrontation with them.


That was really a fantastic answer if I compare it to what I get from most people knowledgeable in the field of psychology.

It is a theory that carries hope too since, by implication, the smaller non altruistic population is entirely dependent on a majority of altruists (us). Consequently we really don’t need them.

This is very evident in my home country where approximately 50 people die at the hands of another every day. We have an unusually high percentage of sociopaths in South Africa. Some speculate that early childhood trauma during the apartheid era could be largely responsible and account for the environmental factors necessary for a person to develop ASPD.

In conclusion, I think that South African society very much confirms that if the ratio of altruists to non altruists is too low that the structure of the society will crumble. You only have to be here for about a month to verify this empirically.



I have been through a similar situation that I am just finding out about, putting the pieces of the puzzle is difficult for us.. people not investigating the facts/kids are more perceptive than we are at times they can see the BS……as soon as it starts….


Hi spirit! how are you?

Ox Drover

Nemo, I think all we have to do right now is look at what is going on in Haiti, the rioting and violence are starting now with short resources, people are now starting to flee the city to go to the country where they have family on small farms at outlying areas where they think they will be safer, and probably will be in the short term.

I don’t see any way that the UN “peace keepers” are going to be able to protect the city population from the predators among them.

Chaos is going to be there for quite some time I think. I think this is a good example of how the psychopaths will rise up to secure resources from the non-violent population, using violence against defenseless people.


Hey..One Step! hmmmm how to answer that question with out writing a Novel…I am doing well and just catching up within the free time that I have and how about you?


I think the evidence points to genetic differences between normals and spatholes; however, I tend to be somewhat skeptical that the differences are for evolutionary advantages.

Human beings are different from other animals in that we are highly social and intelligent. Combining these two traits requires us to have a more sophisticated “emotional intelligence” that most other animals (that may be questionable when comparing ourselves to, say, elephants or dolphins which are also very intelligent and social and yet seem to be lacking the nutbars we humans have to deal with on a regular basis!).

There has been a lot of research lately into the role that emotions play in species lives in terms of survival. Generally, the more intelligent and social the species is, the more sophisticated the emotional abilities are. There is probably a reason for this: emotional intelligent fosters cooperation among individuals so the group, as a whole, can be successful in surviving. Have emotions seems to be a highly evolved evolutionary tactic for survival among social animals.

Conversely, the ability to be hard-wired for highly sophisticated emotions likely means there is a LOT that can go wrong with this trait. As humans we have a broad range of mental disorders among individuals, seemingly moreso than other animals. For instance, schizophrenia is a mental illness that clearly does not help an individual suffering with it to “spread his seeds,” at least before there were medications to manage it. However, an individual who is lacking the human genetic component of full emotions (a socipath), however, is not as easily recognized by the general public as an aberration so such a person CAN “spread his seeds.” This doesn’t mean such a person has an evolutionary advantage (as the example with the selfish vs. altruistic monkey simplistically but effectively shows). Indeed, there is a self-terminating bent in these people (like encouraging abortions and risk-taking behaviours).

It is interesting to me to consider the biblical predictions of “peace on earth” after an almighty struggle. We all know the world would be a better place without spatholes in it, yet now they’re everywhere, even in our corporate environment and world governments. There is no avoiding them. But if the theory of the selfish monkey vs. altruistic monkey pans out, then the selfish monkey is going to get eliminated. Voila! World peace!

One can only hope.


OxDrover, In principle I agree with you but with one important difference. I think that you will find a large proportion of the rioting “mob” in Haiti at the moment are people who would have been described as “normal” prior to this. It is the situation that is driving the behaviour. That famous quote, that I cannot seem to find the source for at the moment, “We are three meals away from anarchy” is coming into play right now. I do think it is important to emphasis the difference between “mob” and “psychopathy”. They may well have similarities but because one or many people are running wild does not mean that they are psychopaths. For one thing, where is the control in this situation. The very phrase “mob rule” implies an anarchistic society where the strongest, most cunning or deadliest wins. It does not imply deep pathological traits, though it can be said that mob behaviour is pathological, but this, in and of itself, does not imply anything about the pathological state of the individual members of that mob.

We are all animals, by that I mean, despite our civilised ways, we are still by and large the same species that came out of the steppes of Africa and spread throughout th world. From a biological view point, regarding animal instinct, etc. there is no difference between us and your average wolf, except that the wolf is better adapted to his natural environment than we are to ours. Given the situation in Haiti, the fear, the death, the lack of food, water, resource and the breakdown of the normal controlling strata of society, (police, etc.) society itself has broken down and the people are, in a very real way, reverting to their more animalistic natures.

Some won’t and, in a bizarre sense, as these will most likely be in the minority, it is these few, in this situation, that are exhibiting abnormal behaviour.

I do not pretend to know what exactly is going on, nor do I pretend to have experienced something similar but I do know human nature and I do not pretend that we are not an animal species, one of many that occupy this planet. When all is said and done, the only things that distinguishes us from, what the majority of us think as “animal behaviour”, though perhaps a more apt description would be “wild animal behaviour”, is our society and the rules and taboos that we have put in place to allow that society to function, which in turn is indicative of our reasoning process, our ability to co-operate, etc.. Take away the society and you potentially take away the veneer of civilisation and change the human animal to the wild animal.

Jofary, If I may, I did not speak of evolutionary advantages, to do say implies some kind of race or game where one side has the advantage over the other. There is only evolution. Some trends prosper, some die out. More than one trend can coincide with the other at any one time. There is no controlling power, no master who gives more of an advantage to one species.

I do not want to contradict your belief system, which I respect. However, the “earth” that the bible talks about is not the world we know today. By that I don’t mean the society then compared to now, I mean the world was literally smaller then in relation to human experience and exploration. What was called the “earth” then could be, in todays terms, a country or even a general tribal area.

I do think you have an interesting point regarding behavioural psychology and adaptation. One thing is clear, in any society there are those who want/need to be in control. In a “normal” society, these individuals become politicians, bosses, etc. In the few, this control may be symptomatic of a deeper pathology and perhaps, as you implied, we have to live with a certain dis-functionality in order to progress. Because without the will to impose our order upon the world, we would never have become the society that we are today. So, in a very real sense, we need people with the internal drive to control their environment. It is an intrinsic part of being human.


this is an interesting thread, i’m new, my wife joined us into this group. in regrads to ICANSEECLEARLYNOW this gave me much reflection..


“…1. Right off the bat, I see holes in this theory. If psychopathy is nothing more than an alternate “species” of human, a totally selfish way of living, in which altruism, loving relationships, bonded committed sexuality are replaced by full out self-interest and sexual promiscuity, as just an alternate strain in evolution, then I would have to ask where all the other abnormalities fit into the psychopathic portrait…”

Icanseeclearlynow, I think if one considers psychopathy on it’s own as nothing more than an alternate “species” of human we should also consider the other abnormalities within SOME of the “current” models as deviations or mutations or evolutions of, or even secondary conditions manifested ALONG with, but also possibly independent of, the alternate ’species’ of human model that is the psychopath.

If you consider the issues you described in terms of the psychopath, they also do exist in the non psychopath population as well. To which neither would have survived for too long or too successfully at some point in history but can and does now in a helping culture environment.

I have a book in front of me where the title alone just jumped at me, “One Nation under Therapy: How the Help Culture is Eroding Self Reliance.” I don’t know yet why the title alone grabbed me in one aspect, but in the another vein of thought, I consider that the Help Culture also ensures the existence of many different kinds of human deviations or branches within the human spectrum today that would not have survived at other points in history or even today in some places. Blanche’s statement in “A Streetcar Named Desire” comes to mind when Vivien Leigh states. “I have always depended on the kindness of strangers—

I feel that at one point in history psychopaths with addictions, poor impulse control, distorted thinking patterns, paranoia had the same chances of survival with those weaknesses as those with schizophrenia, autism, Down syndrome and other issues did, at different times or places. They existed but were few and far between and their survival was also dependant on the kindness of strangers, and not so much on their own survival instincts.

Weaker and “disabled” psychopaths chances for survival were just as slim but their chances for survival in this day and age are stronger. Survival of the fittest is not so much of an issue these days, survival is always possible, success is another matter. Surviving today is easy enough to do in America, while it may not be so in our backyard in Haiti.

As an example I am much involved in autistic matters, and I have come to learn that children in Haiti that displayed Down syndrome features or autistic behaviors were often abandoned or left to die in Haiti. Individuals that deviated from the norm simply didn’t have the capacity to survive in that environment, well, unless that individual was a psychopath.

Taking Haiti as an example, while the down syndrome and autistic and schizophrenic individuals quite often died nearly as soon as they happened, the psychopath with little ’other’ maladies afflicting him will likely still be standing, (well, standing and running the place nearly, I can imagine)

In say Haiti, a psychopath with disabilities, may be rare as they would likely die out very soon, or in America, they’d be receiving therapy” thus there is more rampant conditions and or other branches within the human spectrum that can survive and even thrive more often now today that would not have survived in another time in history or today 90 miles from the U.S. or elsewhere in underdeveloped countries that are still in ’survival’ mode.

My wife alone would have been burned as a witch at one time, or thought of as devil possessed, or just thrown away or hidden away. For quite some time families discarded them into madhouses and institutions often just forgetting their existence altogether. In my wife’s family an autistic, or rather one afflicted with the “family curse” as they said, was sent away and hidden from others from the shame and disgrace it would bring to their entire family and how they as a whole would be ostracized from their community. It was feared that the other children will never find suitable marriage partners as they would fear that they would produce children also afflicted. Many feared that their sibling’s condition, would leave the sisters left into spinsterhood, or brothers who might as well be donated as a priest to the church, since they would become untouchable for fear of passing on this trait to their offspring. Children were needed to help the farming and other such chores for the families’ survivals and an afflicted child would be a burden the families often could not afford, understand or as a whole survive. In those days even a chance that their other children would bring more of those afflicted put the other children at risk for not being good candidates for marriage. The one great aunt was sent away and never seen from or spoken about again. But the other girls that married did pass on the autistic trait where my wife would not have been here now if not for their families’ deception.

the psychopath in it’s classic form with no clear and evident issues and a strong will to survive will have no problem surviving in various settings… whilst another probably never made it to hit adulthood as he got strung out on opium in those days.

The psychopath knows how to pretend, knows how to survive, and knows how to infiltrate. I think if some 2012 world event were to actually happen the one human breed I think has the best chance of surviving through it all would be the psychopath. Right along with the cockroaches”

on another note this interested me also:

“….Cluster B’s comes from something inherently WRONG with them that cannot just be explained away by an alternate survivalist species theory…”

Right and so they have other issues and conditions beyond the main alternate survivalist species theory going for them. Simply because they are psychopaths do not mean they are immune to some other form of affliction that creates a different sort of psychopath. In which case this should have an answer to this line,

“…Grant et. al. write that from childhood, psychopathic personalities are fundamentally different from others, but the differences are not the result of a medical failure or injury. They point out that pregnancy difficulties can be related to schizophrenia and mental retardation, but not psychopathy. “While many adverse medical conditions and injuries lead to antisocial and violent behavior, our selections hypothesis suggests that they do not cause psychopathy,” they write…”

But individuals with psychopathy can still develop other issues through pregnancy difficulties, medical failure or injury or environmental issues that can change their psychopathy propensity or features. I would think statistically that psychopaths are not anymore immune to medical failure or injury or problems with pregnancy as the rest of the population, although psychopathy can exist independent of other issues.

One can be the most loving and nurturing mother but still end up with a psychopathic child or an autistic child.

Now an abusive parent can not create classic psychopathy or an autistic in and of itself, but can create one meaner, more dysfunctional psychopath or a very frightened anxious ridden traumatized autistic, or a child with symptoms shadowing upon either but something else altogether. A child bred of trauma with tendencies and features toward either of the two but not in the classic sense. Children with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder can shut down and develop some characteristics seen in autism, or a child of trauma can also develop sociopathic tendencies as a result of their trauma while not having had the psychopathic genetic material.

All on the human spectrum will adapt and evolve in some manner to survive. I think there is a difference between created psychopaths and psychopaths no matter what, I’m thinking of that movie, The Good Son, and older yet, The Bad Seed as examples of psychopaths no matter what.

There are great diversity in the human specimen, and within certain breeds, certain deviations that can be attributed to genetics, or to injury and to environment, that can and will affect psychopaths and nonpsychopaths alike.

There is I think a product of genetics, and a product of environment, and also a product of the two combined that create different manifestations of the same breed.

i’m also thinking of memetics. but that’s another train of thought which will make this post way longer than it should be.



Hi Mike – what an eloquent and articulate post = you have obviously been doing a lot of reading and thinking around this topic. What I take from your post (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that our current societal structure provides the perfect playground for sociopaths / psychopaths to hide and run free with their power agendas – many of the traits the psychopath has are in fact valued in Western societies – we can certainly see this in corporate settings where ‘dog eat dog’ is valued and executives can climb the ladder by stepping on others.

On a related note I read at the cassopeia website that psychopaths are machines and the ones we can spot by their behaviours are the defective ones. They are made to elude detection … this is just one person’s opinion of course and it’s rather far fetched and a little Matrix like, but it has really got me thinking. They are to all intents and purposes like machines – they have no sensitivity to the higher order feelings and emotions that most humans have. They don’t struggle with ethical situations as most of us do – life is a clear cut survival race for them with themselves as the only important competitor.

So this idea of a machine is sticking in my head. Yes it sounds like science fiction I know, but where does it come from and what is the ultimate purpose of the psychopath? We think at this stage it is caused by a combination of nature and nurture – both genetics and environment. The two interact on the developing child to form the adult psychopath. I had the word simulacrum pop into my head this morning … here’s a definition

Simulacrum (plural: -cra), from the Latin simulacrum which means “likeness, similarity”,[1] is first recorded in the English language in the late 16th century, used to describe a representation of another thing, such as a statue or a painting, especially of a god; by the late 19th century, it had gathered a secondary association of inferiority: an image without the substance or qualities of the original.

I am now wondering what ancient philosophers and religious texts might tell us about these people considering they have existed in society from the dawn of time.

I take your point about parents not causing it but having the propensity to create a worse version of psychopathy through poor parenting. I see the condition as existing on a scale – this doesn’t help victims unfortunately – someone who is ‘just a little bit’ psychopathic will still do lots of damage, but there definitely are those who show worse symptoms than others in society. A lot of the cases I read about in The Mask of Sanity involved people who could not hold down a job. They come in all shapes, sizes and colours. Some are hopeless drug addicts, some are fully functional and very difficult to detect – co-existing pathologies are common in addition to psychopathy.

Please keep posting your thoughts Mike and forgive me if I can’t keep up with your thinking! I don’t even know what memetics is!

Ox Drover

Nemo, I agree, not everyone in Haiti that is rioting or looting is a psychopath. I have no doubt that most of us would steal without a backward glance if we had to to survive, but at the same time, I don’t think we would throw a large stone off a building and deliberately hit a 12 year old kid in the head in order to do it. I saw this yesterday on the news and Cooper Anderson, the reporter picked the kid up and ran him to safety. But my point is that in a situation like this, those that ARE psychopathic will use whatever violence is “necessary” to Get what they want, even if it is ripping the last of food out of a child’s mouth, which those of us who are not psychopathic probably would NOT do, no matter how hungry we were.

I recall the story in the Bible where the two women in a famine situation had made a deal. The first woman gave her son to be cooked and eaten, but the next day when they were supposed to eat the son of the second woman, and the second woman refused to give up her son. The first woman complained that she had kept HER part of the bargain and wanted the second woman MADE TO KEEP HER PART OF THE BARGAIN by giving up her son. Famine and scarce resources makes for some horrific behavior, as witness the stories of the Nazi camps from WWII, yet, not everyone becomes a predator no matter how short the resources are. Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” which was his story of the emotions experienced in his several years of incarceration in a Nazi camp and the horrific conditions in which he lived in famine and slave labor, after having lost everything he owned or had except his life.

There is an old saying in my family, “the same sun that melts the wax, hardens the clay” so i.e. the same conditions will act differently on different substances. So what we are MADE OF and what we are is brought out in adverse situations. Some people become cruel and predatory, and others become altruistic. What adversity brings out in you is proof of what was there to begin with in my opinion.

I think if I were starving I could eat the body of my dead son, but I sure as heck couldn’t kill him in order to eat him.


OxDrover, I know what you mean and I think that we are in agreement.

I would like to believe that I would be altruistic. Having said that, although I am reasonably sure I would not drop a brick on someones head for the fun of it, if my six year old daughter was dying of starvation, I do not know to what extremes I would go to allow her to survive……….



quoted “One of the kids told me today that the S told them all they were not wanted!”

This made my stomach sink to read this, as this is EXACTLY what the exMN told my youngest son. It just kills me that he would say that when it was nothing farther from the truth. I was not using bc, we were not actively trying for a third child, but were hoping for one, and I was blessed with my son at age 40, 5 years after the birth of my second daughter.

So 15 years later, the MN tells my son that I got pregnant by accident, and he wasn’t wanted by his mother. This purposeful cruelty knows no boundaries.


Excellent article and it sure rings true from what I know of the exMN’s parents, grandparents and brother….not only the gene-pool but also the childhood environments. I was inspired to order “The Selfish Gene” (could a title be any more appropriate?)


autisticsouls / Mike, just a brief note. I’ve been talking to your wife. I think she is one of the most amazing people I’ve ever met, and I’m so glad she found us. Please let her know that I watched “Mozart and the Whale,” and I loved the movie. It was also about something in my family, though I’m not sure exactly what to name it.

I have a great deal of difficulty in the nature vs. nurture. In psychopathy as well as autism. I’ve met born psychopaths. They are a certain types that is unforgettable. I’ve also known people that have become sociopaths, possibly with some level of genetic inclination, but with background issues, particularly related to desperate situations in early nurture that effectively shut down their trust and empathy. (Temple Grandin’s discussion of panic as response to a loss of resources is relevant to this, I think.)

On the autistic side, I’ve believed for a long time that environmental factors at least contribute. In my family, the selective carbohydrate diet has relieved a lot of psychological and psycho-motor symptoms. Based on the success of the SCD and related food restrictions, I have come to thing that the combination of antibiotics and high-grain diets for baby’s is at least a contributing factor to panic or anxiety-based systems.

In talking with your wife (I don’t know her name) about, as she puts it, autistic people, everyday people and pretender people, it really made me think. Not just about survival strategies, but relative strengths. She has awareness and instinctual knowledge that make me feel only vestigially sentient in these realms. I want to just sit by her and see if I can absorb this by osmosis.

My experience with sociopaths, especially after recovering from my last relationship, is that their strengths can also be communicated and learned. They are so dangerous to be around, because they are relentlessly and unfeelingly exploitative (at minimum), but a lot of us are finding that our experiences with them are making us stronger, more self-referenced and self-reliant.

Well, I have to go back to work now. Please tell you wife that I said hi.


ErinBrock, I just wanted to tell you how crazy-angry it made me to hear that your ex told the kids they weren’t wanted. And that they were living with that for a while, before you knew.

I hear this and I think these people have some kind of soul-shriveling jealousy that sees everything anyone else has as some kind of statement about themselves. So they have to ruin it to make themselves feel better.

I’m so glad they are your kids. I read these stories and how you handle them, and I almost wish I were your kid. Not now, but when I was a kid. It’s too bad, we couldn’t time travel you back to train all our parents.

And while I’m in fantasy land, I really thought about how satisfying it would have been, when you heard about this, to be able to call up your brother, the Mafia guy, and say, “Do me and the rest of the world a favor, and just take this guy out.” You don’t have a Mafia brother, but the homicidal fantasies made me feel a bit better. I really hate your ex.



thanks, I have been studying human behavior and attempting to understand humanity for quite some time. My story, here goes, sharing is good for the soul they say. i have been doing it for a while and i am not really feeling it.

I have been diagnosed as having Asperger Syndrome when I was 11, I am married to an autistic woman and we have an autistic child.

My experience with psychopaths comes through observations and being a victim of bullying as a child. So I have had much experience with them throughout my life. While I spent a lot of time observing humans like I did ants on an anthill I started to recognize a lot of different breeds in the human specimen.

it started in school when there was always someone who was picking on me, then there was always someone who joined in but seemed uncomfortable with it, and there was also always someone who would jump to my defense. I spent a lot of time attempting to identify the different breeds to figure which to avoid, which to call on for assistance and so on, and where i fit in.

There was the obvious psychopath who took particular joy in shoving my head into toilets, and other such abuses, enough for me to not be able to watch a “Simpson’s” episodes without getting considerably uncomfortable. There were other more subtle ones, which can still pull the wool over my eyes, as the saying goes. That IS the saying isn’t it?

I realized Psychopaths were everywhere, although I didn’t know what they were called because no one calls them anything. In movies and TV shows, unless on rare occasions they were seen in the most extreme cases: The Bad Seed, The Good Son, and The Talented Mr. Ripley. I penned the term The Asshole Syndrome. Altruistic people were everywhere too. But the true essence of a person will be showcased in extreme conditions. I don’t think people know who they really are until they are there, and only then realize which direction they would turn.

I have to admit that I envied them. Yes I did. They were well liked, charming, and fit in everywhere they went. I really didn’t know or have met for quite sometime any one remotely like me except maybe in sparingly in textbooks, and of course recently with the autism ’epidemic’.

But even when dumped in the ADHD class(incorrectly as i was the opposite of ADHD) the same things happened as in mainstream class. There would be some ADHD kid picking on me because it was fun, another ADHD kid joining in because it was something to do, and another ADHD kid that would always jump in and defend me. It’s like my WTF moment. I just could never categorize people like I did other things. Every time I thought I had it figured out someone would always surprise me.

Even as I write this I feel I left some artificial elements in that I need to work on. I have this need to make myself present more human and somewhat less robotic.

My wife describes us all as different animals or different breeds. Maybe. But the whole machine concept stands out to me. As in a sense I consider them machines just as I am also a machine. Just a different kind.

like Aspies, they have a certain logic in their method, like us they collect data, sort it out, categorize it and figure out how to use the information they have gathered. just to different ends.

i need stability, order and i strive for a certain harmony. but i also have a will to survive. i have a wife and child now. i’m going to survive and it isn’t going to be dependant on the kindness of strangers.

i have been trying to shed my autism like it was a liability. to become like as my wife terms ‘everyday people” even to imitate “their” tactics and techniques. no. No. i will not compromise or sacrifice who or what i am which in the natural order of things is a good thing. i am a good thing. i’m not going to sacrifice what i am to become something else to survive. i don’t think it’s a matter of becoming like you or becoming like them it is a matter of a decision to use what i have already to survive, to not only survive but to leave something that society and humanity can use to a better end. will it mean to become a different breed of Aspie? i am so uncomfortable with change. But we are changing, aren’t we? we are all changing, transforming. i’m not the same kid with his head in the toilet. like everyone else, i am also adapting and evolving.

i’m going to succed and survive in my own terms now. i don’t know what kind of autistic this will make me.

i just know that a new machine is coming into the playing field.



has anyone read Dr. Leedom’s book?

a few posts have mentioned the things spaths say to their children 🙁 would someone be interested in starting a thread specifically about the experiences that go unspoken by our kids? (I am taking the possessive here, not as a mother, but as a human.) I’d really like to see a discussion about this – to stem the tide, stop the lineage, expose this malignancy to light.

not only a human, but a daughter with ‘rot’ in her head.

one step.


I just lost a post to ya! Shit!
Anyways….Yes…..take a hit out on em all huh!!!
I was thinking..since I’m adopted and don’t know my bio parents….I know bio mother had 6 siblings….NOW I’m certain… of them MUST BE MAFIA huh! Maybe Uncle Bubba can take care of it as a ‘welcome to the family’ gift!
No….but really…..When I am certain of something….I am at peace….and I am at peace because I KNOW he won’t get away with how he’s treated anyone….let alone his kids.
I KNOW he’s going to suffer something fierce….and I’m only glad i’m not around to have to caretake his sorry ass! I really do believe everything happens for a reason….and he’ll get whats coming by the universe, no need to enlist Uncle Bubba.
I can’t tell you how confident I feel in KNOWING this! IT WILL HAPPEN!!!

So…I can move on to more productive things……like damage control for the kids….. 🙂

Thanks for your thoughts of the kids….it is just despicable that someone can participate in making a human life and them participate in the ’emotional demise’… goes against everything I feel for the kids…..SO!
I want the kids to conquor the world……do everything that I haven’t…..and have…..take life by the balls… the queen and kings of the world….(not sociopathically of course!!)….but you know…..shoot for the moon!
I want only the best for them…..and I just can’t imagine being jelous of them……my god!
With the one child not going to graduate, most likely……it’s gonna be a sore point….because my ‘poor parenting’ is going to ‘come up’ I’m sure…..I can’t do anything else for this kid…..and I feel confident I have opened every door to success for them. It’s their choice……
It’s not like I haven’t been here 100% plus for all of them!!!
That is heartbreaking for me too! I think they think they will ‘punish’ their father by failing…..
I have modeled quite the opposite…I say succeed until you own the world…….and make him come begging to YOU…..and then you will be in control of how YOU choose to deal with it! Uh, sorry dad….remember when?

I’m sure there is way more that I DON”T know……and I’m also sure it will ooze out in time, as it has thus far….
One thing I always said….being molested myself…was that if anyone ever molested my children I would kill them……
I’m wondering if he ever did this to the kids….and that info is coming down the pike……
Sharing my ‘inner’ most feeling with the S….like the molestation, in Spath twist would give him the licence to do it….for his jollies… see my reaction….
Well…..that’s when I may need to be in contact with U. Bubba!

They are sick fucks! PERIOD!!!



EB – i proposed a spath slayer squad on one of the threads. i am rather serious.

no physical injury, but doing lost of recon and taking them down – the thing that would make it work is that we could go after each other’s spaths – where they have no emo. control.

i still have A LOT of revenge fantasies.

they take up a fair amount of my head space daily. there’s some kinda cool ones.

no bubbas. but lots of nefarious one step.

on step


If there is ever a movie about a spath slayer, he should be played by Clint Eastwood, in my humble opinion. That way, he could spout off one of his one-liners right before he pulls the trigger. Now THAT’s what I’M talkin about!



but i want girls in the movie, too.

hmmm, Nina Olen!





yah, but THAT was a given!


Kathy, you ARE intune to people. my wife said so but you know how it is when people second guess themselves which i often do. You must of tapped into us as we were both writing at the same time and saying the same thing.

my wife says don’t dissmiss it but acknowledge it and it will get stronger.

as you stated:
“…but a lot of us are finding that our experiences with them are making us stronger, more self-referenced and self-reliant…”

isn’t that something…

i think it’s strange when i read over my words that things didn’t hit me so hard because of recent events but that it has been a build up of abuse i’ve suffered over the years and chose to push aside only to resurface in light of recent events. i think it would be appropriate to cry but don’t know if i’de be able too… i think posting has been enough release.

emotions are hard to feel through. they are so disruptive and turbulent.

erin brock’s posts seem so traumatic and raw. i feel like i should say something or do something but there’s nothing i can think of to say, so i’ll say nothing. it’s a bit scary to witness but i have felt like that too. i wish i could articulate it too in the same manner and i did a little. but it’s bit overwhelming to ever really let myself go like that. i’m afraid of my emotions because if left unchecked emotions can distort things and disorganize me. it can also be destructive. i can’t think straight if i’m feeling too much. thinking is an orderly process. feeling is a disorderly process.

the ability to shut down is a godsend at times. someday i must send you picture of us. My Des and our Dolphin.


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