Those of us who have been psychologically abused by sociopaths—whether we’re male or female, and whether the abuser is male or female—know that the abuse should be criminal. It appears that in France, it just may happen.
A Lovefraud reader sent me a link to an interesting story in Time Magazine. Legislators from France’s ruling party are expected to introduce a bill that would outlaw “conjugal abuse of a psychological nature” in both married and unmarried relationships.
According to Time,
The legislation seeks to target the verbal and mental denigration, humiliation and manipulation that typically lead to physical abuse. The hope is that the bill will help prevent the emotional wounds that words often cause before a punch is ever thrown.
I hope the law gets passed. I hope it works. We’ll have to see what happens.
Read the article on Time.com:
Nicolaid – thanks for your post and giving us some context from France. You raise some salient points and a few of them I had concerns about too – like the trouble with finding witnesses to psychological abuse that often occurs in private settings. You also point out that some people might abuse the legislation – crying abuse where none exists.
It is my hope that you will return here and read some of the comments on previous posts – if you do you will see that it is not just women affected here by psychopaths but also men. Also rather than gaining any economic advantage from the psychopath, most people here have lost thousands to them – they can be terribly irresponsible with money and don’t care about debts they leave behind. We too have workplace bullying legislation and you are right – it can be very difficult and awkward to prove – so most people end up leaving the abusive workplace.
I think it is important this legislation comes through – if a man punches a woman he can be jailed for it. But if he plays mindgames with her, puts her down continually and murders her soul, there is no penalty and he gets to walk away scot free – there is something very wrong with that – and yes women can do this as well but the statistics seem to point to the fact that men do it more than women by invoking male priviledge.
Have you yourself had experience with a psychopath? Leaving them is not the easy road you imply that it is. There is brainwashing involved, often the victim is so low in self esteem they can’t think straight or do anything for themselves and when partners leave is known as the most dangerous time. These people are known for violence at the end of the relationship as well as stalking.
SOme good points made – please read some more here and post some more of your experience 🙂
Nicolaid, I agree with your comment regarding that a S is ‘very adept at using the law to obtain what they want”— or my opinion rather in “breaking the law” whenever they want resulting in their high incidence of convictions.You have made some good points regarding the controversy and dilemna’s facing this proposed law.
However, I think your comment that you have seen many women involved with an S, to “suddenly pretend abuse after the S has dumped them” to be way off base. In those cases, you are not dealing with a true S.
In situations with relationships not involving a S, I could agree that there is opportunity for citing abuse when there truly may be none.
Obviously, you aren’t familar with the “nature of the beast” of a P.
Abuse is WHAT they do. There is no question of that.
I am wondering what makes you believe these women are “pretending” abuse?? while with a sociopathic partner? ?
Your other comment that “women” (you assume are the only ones affected??) should have condemned the man’s behavior in the first place also shows that you are very niave and uneducated regarding sociopaths.
You are not alone, many victims are blindsided by this hugely disordered vermon of society, and are taken in by the mask.
One of the goals here on LF is to expose them for what they truly are.
You really should study and learn more, as your comments reveal that you know very little about a true S, and could easily become prey- rather you are a male or female.
Hello midlifecrisis and Sabrina,
Thank you for your answers.
I know that there are psychopathic women. The first psychopath I met was a woman. She was my landlady. It was a distressing experience because I was pretty young ”“ seventeen -, far away from home, in a foreign country. I had no idea what I was dealing with. I thought of her as someone incredibly vicious. After three months, I just moved out and tried to forget her as quick as possible.
A few years ago, as a junior employee, I came across another one, a male. Unfortunately, he was my boss, my first boss. And unfortunately, I still didn’t know what was a psychopath. This man was very powerfull, highly connected and maintained a persona of immaculate virtue. One day, I quite innocently confronted him over what appeared to be some minor « misundertanding » – one of his manipulations. Overnight, I became his target. He bullied me until I quit. I suffered a severe nervous breakdown, spent a few months in a psychiatric facility. My relationship with my girlfriend came to an end. My professional reputation was destroyed : I had awkwardly tried to defend myself, against all odds, and was subsequentely labeled a nuisance, a lunatic. It took me several months to realize he had a personality disorder.
I don’t think I could get seriously involved in a romantic relationship with a psychopathic woman. I am not trying to say that I am a natural-born psychopath detector, but males and females have ”“ on average – different expectations when it comes to choosing a romantic partner, and I believe that women are more at risk to get fooled because of the nature of their sexual/romantic turn-ons. Psychopathic males regularly turn out to be Don Juans (see Rocancourt) while the most desired females are often simply physically attractive.
Many women are attracted to status, resources, social dominance, assertiveness, charisma, charm. Male psychopaths can easily fake status and resources : they may wear a classy suit, rent an expensive car, date in posh restaurants and casually mention prestigious, imaginary connections and previous luxury holidays, thus appearing « successfull » on the surface. Many women get fooled for the very same reasons organizations unwittingly recruit « snakes in suits ».
As a male, I am more attracted to youth, beauty and moral qualities such as empathy, modesty, shyness, honesty. Those qualities are much more difficult to mimic on the long term for a psychopath because she naturally is the antithesis. I really look for the « antipsychopathic » mate.
I know many women have difficulty leaving their psychopathic man, even when they get severely abused. This is an interesting phenomenon that used to puzzle me a lot. Here again, I believe this rarely happens to those men who get involved with psychopathic women. I believe there are gender specificities when it comes to romantic involvement with psychopaths, although there are huge variations withing each gender, of course.
@....... Sabrina
I’ve suffered a lot because of a psychopath and I still suffer the consequences, up to this day. I have read as much as possible on the subject but I know I still have much more to learn.
My experience is probably very different from yours because I never was emotionally involved with a psychopath. I am aware it may frustrate you, but I can’t help thinking there is some unconscious rationale underpinning the behavior of those who fall in love with psychopaths. Also ”“ this is a philosophical or political stance ”“ I believe one must make a parsimonious use of such notions as « brainwashing » or « battered woman syndrome » which imply the loss of responsability.
Best regards
Nicolaid – thankyou for your response and telling us a bit about your experience. Re
“I am aware it may frustrate you, but I can’t help thinking there is some unconscious rationale underpinning the behavior of those who fall in love with psychopaths. Also ”“ this is a philosophical or political stance ”“ I believe one must make a parsimonious use of such notions as « brainwashing » or « battered woman syndrome » which imply the loss of responsability.”
Until you have been in the situation yourself you cannot believe how much you lose any power you have had in determining your own life and actions. Naturally a romantic relationship is much different to an employment situation – there are deep emotions involved. In some respects you are right – people involved with psychopaths have background subconscious issues – generally with abuse during childhood that ultimately gave them the message that abuse is normal from those we love. Additionally many of us had a lost parent (due to divorce or death), parents with substance abuse, alcoholism, depression or personality disorders. So yes there is a subconscious drive to repeat the situation and ‘get it right’ this time – this is the case for many of us. We have also learned growing up that we are unworthy and don’t deserve much in life so we are easily lead on by these psychopaths who promise the earth, sun and moon.
You seem to have a perception that women who go for psychopathic men are gold diggers or after status – I can’t agree with this. Many of the men women got involved with had lower qualifications and careers that paid less or had less status than the men they got involved with.
Re brainwashing and ‘battered women syndrome’ – I personally wasn’t physically battered – he did everything but though – financial abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse and academic abuse. He tried to destroy me in any way he saw fit. Brainwashing definitely happens as the psychopath wins the victim over to his (or her) version of reality and makes her discard her own perceptions – inducing doubt and insecurity in a person that they can no longer rely on their own perceptions, thoughts, plans and actions. Various authors write about brainwashing, learned helplessness and loss of self efficacy – Sandra Brown in particular in Women who Love Psychopaths explains the process very well – she identifies trance states, hypnosis, hyperfocus and suggestion being used intuitively by psychopaths to over ride women’s intellectual analysis.
I too used to be a person who would get frustrated by watching women being physically abused and going back to the abuser. I would say “Why doesn’t she just leave?” It wasn’t till I experienced the control myself that I understood it. I have read about Stockholm Syndrome and can attest that this is more than just theory. Just world theory explains why people don’t want to believe anyone could be a victim of abuse – they don’t like to think there are people who do harm to others – so they don’t believe people when they tell about it and they blame the victim.
For this reason I prefer the word ‘target’ – it was not my intention to become his victim – it happened over time. But I definitely was powerless during the relationship – that was what he aimed for. He was trying to make me kill myself – I couldn’t make any move for myself at all. I tried to get away from him for years and each time there would be excuses, threats or links that made it impossible. These people are highly manipulative.
I have a friend who had a boss who was a psychopath – this was several years ago now. My friend suffered a nervous breakdown and was unable to work for a year as a result of the abuse – it induced a dreadful sense of self doubt, self blame, depression and insecurity in him. He stopped being able to make decisions and didn’t know what to do to improve the situation. Like you he had to resign in the end.
More than losing just responsibility, we lose our very selves in relationships with these people. Most survivors have emerged searching for who they are at the end of it – by the time the relationship is established we are little more than objects for supply to the psychopath – we cease to exist as autonomous people and our needs, thoughts, feelings and desires are consistently denied, invalidated and ignored. That has a profound effect on people – it is murder of the soul.
Hello Midlifecrisis
“You seem to have a perception that women who go for psychopathic men are gold diggers or after status”
I’ll try to be straightforward :-). I don’t mean to offend anyone.
In my opinion, quite a few women are attracted to psychopathic traits. The problem isn’t that they can’t spot psychopaths. The problem is that they get swept off their feet by men who display at least a modicum of psychopathic tendencies, and sometimes obviously are full-blown psychopaths.
I believe there is an intricate evolutionary link between female sexual desire and psychopathic tendencies, who seem to epitomize sex appeal in the eyes of some women. When former Miss France falls in love with Rocancourt and they have a child together, she cannot claim that she didn’t know that he was a con artist, a womanizer and a suspected murderer : he paraded on talk-shows bragging about being the best at sleecing suckers. In fact, she even tried to contact him while he was still in jail in the States, although they had never met. She fell in love with him because he was a psychopath (she probably wasn’t aware that this is the word psychologists would use to describe such a « sexy » personality).
Hervey Cleckley wrote about the « devotion of women » towards psychopaths. He seemed to be surprised. Hare mentions it too. I have read quite a few stories about nurses, psychologists or female attorneys falling in love with psychopathic offenders in correctionnal settings and risking everything ”“ leaving their husband, jeopardizing their career – only to get conned and dumped afterwards. You have scores of women lining up to find love in jail, even with the most dangerous serial killers.
These women wouldn’t date a nice guy, a man who would score low on the PCL-R, because they simply can’t equate love with true moral qualities. They want someone scoring high on the PCL-R serenading them with fake romanticism and fake moral qualities.
Nicolaid, “The personality traits, and values of the perponderance of victims of a S are as follows:
Successful, (not your gold digger variety, IN FACT- more assets are “More to take” by the parasitic S- an automatic turn on for the proverbial mooch- cha-ching!$$$$!),
Aspiring (not accepting of failures, bright, articulate, with goals- a must have for s, who have NO goals)
Trustworthy,(willing to give others a benefit of a doubt-which is “icing” for a S)
Committed, (willing to stay in a relationship for the long haul-in this case a one way ticket to hell)
Nurturing, (giving,self sacraficing- a slam dunk)
Lonely, and insecure fall in the traits as well which is WHY S troll obituaires looking for the jackpot. The previously abused, I am sure make an easier target, but is NOT a prerequesite.
ALtho everyone is a target, the above traits are more dominate in victims.
I am sorry Nicolaid, that you seem unable to grasp the concept that the “victim” is not flawed like you imply. YOu state that you were victimized as well-
Do you blame yourself for the “rationale” of the underpinning behavior that YOU exhibited to get entangled with one?? Business or personal relationship- lets not split hairs, any involvement qualifies here.
I dont disagree that sometimes individuals simply make bad choices in partners, and ignore red flags (we can relate), but it dosen’t give another (a S in this case) the right to abuse ANYONE mentally or physically.
Nicolaid: I think you make some very interesting points in places. But I had to say that the last paragraph in the post above is total pants.x
No one wants fake serenading and fake romance(they may want romance – that’s a whole other issue, girls particularly are brought up with the notion…handsome princes and all that jazz).
I think your looking at this upside down – there are people out there, from all sorts of lives who get involved and caught up with S/P’s, and they do it because of the manipulative traits of the S/P. No one would be lining up if they knew the maggot ridden face that lies under the mask of their beloved/friend/family member IMHO:)
Nicolaid, there is plenty of research suggesting that women are attracted to strength, competence, confidence and personal achievement. And at least part of that list could be related to a well-developed sense of self-interest.
However, women are not attracted to men who are going to belittle them, lie, steal, be unfaithful, dominate them against their own best interests. Unless, of course, there is something wrong with the woman. My personal theory on this, as someone who was attracted to a sociopath and stayed with him, is that there was something wrong with me. And it was related to unresolved trauma in my background.
Sociopaths are talented mimes. They are also very concerned with status, because of their own view of the world as being completely organized by relative power (i.e., who “wins”). So obviously a lot of them are going to appear to be alpha males. However, some of them choose the strategy of being needy, being emotional sensitive, being animal lovers, etc. They do what works to enable them to navigate feeling society and earn their living by extracting resources from their hosts. How they appear is not what makes them a sociopath. It’s what they do in relationships.
I think that most of us get to the point where we recognize that the sociopaths took advantage of certain vulnerabilities. And yes, the attraction to certain character traits could be viewed as a vulnerability and even a genetic one. So could the the fact that women tend to bond sexually more easily than men do.
But a lot of us come down to the idea that the reason we didn’t get out sooner, didn’t recognize what we were dealing with and fight off the psychological and sexual miasma came down to something like self-esteem issues. Or self-valuing or self-caring or self-protecting. And in healing we work on those issues.
Does it mean we’ll never be attracted to a strong, competent, confident person again. Probably not. But it does meant that that honesty, dependendability, consistency and compassion are a whole lot higher on our list of reasons to trust someone. And sometimes trust and attraction conflict. However, sociopaths are great teachers in this area. If we’re attracted to someone we learn we can’t trust, we now understand that the risks may be more than we want to take on.
Kathleen – I resent the lost emails. did you receive?
Yes, I did. But there didn’t seem to be anything requiring a response. I’ve been buried in work.