Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following story from a reader whom we’ll call “Adelaide.” Names are changed.
I met Joe at a bar. It was the first time I ever went out alone.
I was forcing myself to do new things on my own. Trying to prove to myself I did not need a man beside me to do the things I wanted to do.
After I ordered my drink I started to feel uncomfortable. I noticed a jukebox and thought it would give me some comfort to hear some music I enjoy. So, I went to put in my selections.
When I turned back around I noticed someone sitting in my chair. All my belongings had been pushed to the side. But my drink remained right where I left it. I immediately got angry … wrinkled my nose and stomped over to the stranger in my chair … ”You are in my chair!” I exclaimed in an irritated voice …. he apologized profusely … “Oh…I’m sorry!! This is your chair???”
I wasn’t even looking at him I was so ticked ”¦ I just wanted the safety of my chair back!! “That’s MY drink in front of you too!!”
He apologized again and he said it so sweetly that I felt bad that I had been so rude.
That’s when I touched his arm and finally looked up and said, ”it’s okay … just please pay your bill and let me have my chair back okay?”
It was in that moment I saw his face … so handsome!!! And he looked at me in a way that made me feel like he was looking IN to me.
He introduced himself. We started talking … we talked and talked … about everything … he told me about his brother’s suicide … I told him about my divorce and the horrific betrayal I had experienced …. yet when I told him about my divorce I told him I no longer had anger toward my ex … after all it takes two for a marriage to fall apart right??
That’s what I said … princess of empathy … I also told him I was a nurse … QUEEN of empathy …. Pay Dirt!!!!
When we left the bar he walked me home. We walked arm and arm … it felt like we had known each other forever … I already felt bonded. The night ended with, I swear, the best kiss I had EVER experienced in my life.
Our texting sessions started just moments after he left me that night. And they would quickly get more intense and constant.
(By the way, he would eventually reveal that he stole my seat on purpose as an excuse to talk to me…brilliant hunting skills!!)
But he never asked to see me…which seemed so odd. It was obvious we had a strong connection … why didn’t he ask me out? I thought maybe there was a girlfriend in the picture.
By the way, I forgot to mention, I lived in Pennsylvania and he lived in NY.
Finally I just came out and asked him when he was going to ask me out. I even sent him a picture of me in a pretty dress to remind him of “what he was missing.”
We arranged to meet the next weekend.
That meeting began the whirlwind of the most romantic, passionate intense experience of my life. On date number two, he picked me up and seemed nervous. He kept saying, “I need a drink.”
Finally, I asked him if he was ok and he said “NO!” and pulled over. He stopped the car and looked at me, unblinking… “I have to tell you something …. I’m separated … and I have two kids.”
The news was shocking and disheartening. Especially since I had promised myself I would never date anyone who’s divorce was not finalized AND I would not date anyone with young children … also on my list … I will not date firefighters or hunters …. Joe was all of these things.
It’s amazing how quickly one can abandon their principals when they believe they have met their soul mate.
We proceeded to have our date. I asked lots of questions. The following morning I had more questions and an off feeling in my gut and asked him to meet me at the diner. I had come up with what I thought were brilliant questions that would reveal if he was telling me the truth while also poking at his conscience if he was lying.
I reminded him of the horrible betrayal I had been through. I told him, “Joe, I don’t want to do to another woman what was done to me … only you know the truth ”¦ please don’t do that to me … or to her.”
Then I said to him, “You have gotten to know me over the last couple of months. Tell me, do you think I’m a good person?”
Yes, he said…you’re a great person.”
To which I replied, “Good … I think you are a good person too, Joe, so I’m choosing to believe what you are telling me ”¦ but again, only YOU know the truth. If what you’re telling me is not true, it’s okay. We can still part ways as friends at this point. Just don’t take a good person down a bad road.”
“I would never do that” he said. “I believe in do onto others as you would want them to do onto you.” (Oh, did I forget to mention that I had revealed to him that I was a faithful Christian?”) … He ended with “I understand that this might be hard for you to accept Adelaide … but I know, if you will let me, I will make you happy.”
What followed was a year and a half of intense love bombing and being mirrored. My friends and family weren’t buying it. “They just don’t understand,” I thought. Joe would tell me, “It’s okay Adelaide … they just love you and are looking out for you. I get it. One day I will prove to them who I am and that I’m for real.”
Everything with Joe was intense and passionate and perfect, I thought. He could read me ”¦ it seemed he could anticipate my every desire. I had never felt so loved and adored.
I told him my deepest, darkest secrets. Within months he knew more about me then the man I had been married to for 17 years.
Before Joe, I never believed in the notion of a soul mate. Thought it was romantic silliness created by the movie industry. But Joe changed my mind ”¦ he made me believe. Like a child made to believe that Santa Clause really did exist.
I was the happiest I had ever been in my life and I loved making him happy. I never loved so hard, so deeply, so purely before.
He told me all the things I ever wanted to hear but had never been told by a man. He told me he wanted to marry me (something before Joe I had sworn I would NEVER do again!) and I would feel elated at the thought of becoming this man’s wife.
He would look me deep in the eyes and say, “You’re going to say yes right? When I ask you?“
Even crueler ”¦ I had told Joe I hadn’t been able to have a child and that my ex-husband had never once told me he wanted to have a baby with me. I told Joe how as a woman I had so longed to hear those words from my ex, but they never came.
So Joe took it upon himself to give me my dream ”¦ to tell more during intense, passionate “love making” sessions that he wanted to get me pregnant. That he was determined. It would make me cry with such joy that the man I loved with all my heart would want this with me even though I could probably never give it to him. He was speaking the words I always wanted to hear.
The man of my dreams wanted to not only make me his wife but the mother of his child. Can you imagine what that did to my psyche?
We would have deep conversations ”¦ about everything ”¦ our childhood, our faith in God, our fundamental core values. We agreed on everything and at every level.
When speaking of Joe to my family and friends I would say, “I feel like I have met the male version of myself ”¦ I have never felt so understood and accepted.”
Many times after our long discussions, Joe would get very serious and again look me in the eyes and say, “Just please Adelaide, please ”¦ don’t ever lie to me. It’s the one thing I cannot tolerate. I hate liars. I was lied to my whole life. Please don’t do that to me. I always tell you the truth Adelaide so please do the same for me.”
He would always have the saddest puppy dog eyes as he said this and my heart would just melt. I wanted nothing more than to love him, heal his wounds and protect him for the rest of his life. I would have laid down my own life for his. That is how much I loved the man. That is how much I believed in and trusted him. There was so much more, but I think you get the gist of the magnitude of the lying and manipulation that was occurring
As our relationship progressed, though, there were times I felt that nagging feeling in my gut and the questions would start to fill my mind. Why wasn’t he divorced yet? Why hadn’t I met anyone from his life?
Really, I began to realize I didn’t know anything about his life outside of what he told me. Yet he had access to all of mine. He almost always came to my home. He had met my family and some of my friends. He knew everything about me and yet, outside of our little bubble, I knew nothing about his life once he left my home.
I started to express this to him. How I was starting to feel like I was being hidden. Which didn’t add up to what he had told me about the state of his marriage. That they were legally separated for years now and both had agreed to live separate lives until the divorce was finalized. So why hadn’t I met at least a friend of his yet?
Something started to feel very off. But he always knew how to reassure me.
In fact around Christmas, after expressing my disappointment over not being able to see him, he told me “You know what Adelaide, you are right ”¦ forget all this. I want you to come and meet my mother. Come to Christmas dinner with me so you can meet her.”
How well did this man know me? Enough to know that just the extension of the invitation would be enough for me.
“Oh Joe, you know I would love that but we can’t. We have to wait until everything is settled before I meet your mother. Its only right.”
Other times, when doubt would creep in I would ask “Joe you ARE truly legally separated right? “He would tell me, “Yes Adelaide, I have the papers. I brought them with me to show you. Do you want me to go get them? I left them in the car.”
I never made him show me. I thought it would make it seem like I didn’t truly trust him. The mere fact that he supposedly brought them reassured me that his word was good enough for me.
Still, many of my family and friends were concerned and they expressed this to me at various times. One night I was drinking wine with one of my close friends and her husband, Steve. After listening to us talk and hearing me explain once again how I chose to believe that Joe was a good and truthful man, Steve had had enough.
“Michelle, I have to say something and I hope you don’t hate me for it but I am going to tell you what you are ”¦. you are kind, and sweet and compassionate, independent and self-sufficient AND you live in another state. You are the perfect mistress!”
The words felt like a kick to the gut. I remember my reply to him. “Joe can only be one of two things … he is either the most incredible person I have ever met or he is a deplorable Monster … there is no in-between … and I don’t believe he is a monster … no one could be that horrible … no one could do and say the things he has and not be true … he would have to be the devil himself.”
I later relayed the troubling exchange back to Joe.
“He said that?” he asked. “Yes.” Joe frowned and once again said, “I understand. It’s okay. They will see. One day I will marry you and they will all see I was telling the truth. They will all see that my intentions were always true.”
Then he followed with, “You know I already have it planned in my head ”¦ where and when I am going to ask you ”¦ you said you would say yes, right?”
And with those few simple words all of my creeping doubts and fears would disappear and it was once again Joe and I against the world.
One day everyone would see just how true and magical our love was. And then we would have our fairytale ending where everyone lived happily ever after.
And then it began ”¦ quite subtly of course. The devalue stage was initiated.
I could swear I was starting to catch him staring at other women when we were out. I was never much the jealous type but I began to feel very uncomfortable, even insecure.
When I would call him on it, he would tell me I was seeing things. That he only had eyes for me. That I was the only woman he wanted. Yet I felt like I was beginning to notice it more often. I decided to take him on a trip to Nashville because it had always been his dream to go.
One night we went to a karaoke bar. There was a very attractive bartender, who for the oddest reason, made me feel threatened.
I remember I had excused myself to go to the ladies room and as I was walking back I could swear I saw the two of them engaged in an intense eye lock.
I walked right up to Joe and asked, “What the hell is going on here?” He told me he didn’t know what I was talking about. That I was acting crazy. Well, I felt crazy. I could have sworn I saw what I did, but he was trying to convince me it wasn’t so.
I wanted so badly to believe him.
In the end I demanded we leave the bar because I felt so uncomfortable. I kept apologizing to him for my behavior, telling him I didn’t know what was wrong with me and why I was acting this way.
It was the truth. I didn’t know what was happening to me, suddenly feeling so jealous and insecure!! I was not that woman!! What was wrong with me??
It was an awful feeling and an awful night. He managed to convince me that his version of the event was true and contrived a story that really the girl was looking at HIM as an indirect way to challenge me because she felt threatened there was another attractive woman at the bar.
Once again I chose to believe him because after all, this man loved me right? He wanted to marry me ”¦ wanted me to have his child. I had to have been imagining what I saw.
I let it go but the discomfort always lingered.
I began to pray a lot more. I had been praying all along but this time I changed my prayer. I told God, “God, I want to do what is right here. I have been asking you for signs to let me know if I am being deceived and going against your will. Please God ”¦ if you are sending me signs, I’m not seeing them or I am excusing them away. So, I’m changing my prayer today ”¦ If this is not right God, I need you to take this man out of my life because I’m too far gone. I can’t walk away from him. You have to do it for me if this is not right.”
Interestingly, I shared my prayer with Joe. I will never forget what he said.
At first I thought it was funny. I completely missed the mask drop in his words. “Ummm”¦can you change your prayer please? I mean I don’t want to wind up dying in a fire.” He was dead serious and I thought it was funny.
“Joe” I told him, “I think God knows what I mean ”¦ I think he knows that I’m not asking him to have you killed but if it makes you more comfortable I will clarify to GOD that I don’t mean that.”
I said it with a smile and small chuckle.
When I look back I cannot believe what I missed. My prayer frightened him because he knew what he was doing and it was the furthest thing from what God would want.
I only had to pray my new prayer a few times before the hideous truth was revealed.
Things suddenly started to fall apart. Joe told me his soon to be ex had begun trying to break into his phone.
“Why would she do that?” I asked. “Because she is crazy, and I am done protecting her about her craziness,” he replied.
“Crazy? You never told me your wife was crazy! You always said things between the two of you were amicable and that you were both in agreement that the marriage was over and would end peacefully. Don’t you think you should have mentioned to me earlier that she was crazy?”
I told him something was off. If things were as he said, why would she be trying to break into his phone?
To me the remedy was simple. I told Joe, “If everything is as you say ”¦ give her the phone records. You have nothing to hide, right? So show her. And also Joe, I hate to ask this but I need you to show me those separation papers as well. I never asked you to before but something is wrong here. Someone is lying. I’m sorry but I need to see them.”
He told me “I will show you. I brought them with me so many times, I could have shown you then. I will bring them and show you when I come back.”
I watched him leave to return to NY and “sort out the mess.”
“I love you “ he said. “Don’t forget that”.
That was the last time Joe was ever in my town. The next morning, as I was getting ready for church, my phone rang. Who on earth calls on a Sunday morning at 7 am I wondered??
I heard an unfamiliar female voice say my name. “Hello Adelaide? This is Joe’s WIFE. I’m calling you because Joe is too much of a coward to get on the phone to speak with you himself but he is here standing next to me right now. He told me everything. That you have been together for the last year and a half. He told me that he told you we were legally separated ”¦ we are NOT ”¦ we are MARRIED!!. He also told me that you never wanted to be the other woman. I hate to tell you this but that is exactly what you have been!”
After a few speechless seconds I asked in a quiet voice “So ”¦ you aren’t getting a divorce? You haven’t been going through divorce mediation?”
“NO!” came the reply.
“We have been working on fixing our marriage.
“So ”¦ he doesn’t live in the basement?”
Again “NO! He can’t live in our basement!! He lives in our house. He sleeps next to me in our bed every night!”
My mind was racing. How could this be? He had brought over the mediation papers and asked me to help him figure things out.
He had asked me to talk to my lawyer brother about referrals and had a list of questions for me to ask him about the legalities of dividing up assets.
He had me and members of my family racing around trying to help him in any way we could.
I began begging his wife to put Joe on the phone ”¦ he wouldn’t. He said nothing.
In fact I was starting to wonder if he really was there at all.
But then she ranted, “I can’t BELIEVE he was being intimate with you while we were supposedly working on our marriage. It’s disgusting!”
That’s when I finally heard Joe mumble something in the background and I yelled into the phone “JOE!!!!…HOW COULD YOU???…I always said, you were either the best person I ever met or the absolute worst…now I know!!!….
“You said that to him?” his wife asked me.
“Yes” I replied.
“That’s funny … I’ve said the same thing to him.”
There were a few more respectful exchanges between his wife and I. She was obviously upset but her anger was not really directed at me. It seems she understood I was a victim here as well.
I apologized to her. I promised her that I didn’t know. That I had been terribly deceived.
She ended the conversation by saying there was nothing really more to talk about. That our relationship was now over and she and Joe would see where they would go from here.
I hung up the phone ”¦ and that was the end. Gone. Finished. Over in an instant. Life dream toppled, hopes destroyed.
The silence that followed was unbearable. I contemplated ending it all but my faith kept me from doing so. In reality, I was actually blessed. The monster was taken out of my life just at the start of the devalue phase. If Joe hadn’t been discovered by his wife I’m sure it would have gone on much longer. Until he was truly ready to discard me on his own terms.
The level of pain I was experiencing was excruciating ”¦ I can’t even imagine how much harder it would have been if I had been taken full circle. I questioned how anyone could survive such a horror.
The realization that true evil does exist has been hard to accept. But now it is very clear to me that it does. Not every human being is inherently good. And there are those among us who are inherently bad.
Joe had made contact quite a few times after, professing his love. Promising he would “fix” himself and come back to me ”¦ yet one thing never changed ”¦ no one ever filed for divorce. He was still trying to keep me in his clutches while salvaging his marriage.
It suddenly became so clear. His plan all along was to break me to the point that I would accept the role of mistress in his life at least until he decided to discard me and find a new victim ”¦ a new source of supply. And I realize too”¦I probably wasn’t even the only one.
It may sound like I am a strong woman but truth be told this has been the most devastating experience of my life. The betrayal was more severe and the recovery even more difficult than that of my divorce.
I am still not completely healed. I’m still working on it. It is a constant battle, but with the grace and strength of God and his unfailing love, I’m getting there.
I am changed but I will not let this man destroy who I am at my core. I can’t ”¦ if I do then he has truly won, hasn’t he?? I WON’T let him win. He’s not in control of my life … I am.
Undercover British cops deceived women they spied on into relationships
Wow.
All laid out and it is almost easy to see who Joe was, when it is all laid out like this. In the moment, he really did seem almost ‘perfect’.
How is one supposed to see that something is wrong when everything seems so right? It is said that ‘too good to be true’ is often a warning sign, but come on. What person would not fall for any or all of what happened in the beginning? It feels too wonderful! By the time doubt starts to creep in, one is almost fully emotionally invested in the SP.
I am so sorry for you. What an awful thing for you to go through.
Oh Adelaide, how familiar your story is to me from so many years ago….mine also claimed to be separated. His divorce was always about to come through “next week.” It kept getting delayed, and he had all kinds of plausible explanations. Meantime, he loved and wanted to marry me. But he was hardly ever able to come and see me – there were all his obligations to the army blah blah blah. I also knew something in my gut was wrong. There were inconsistencies in his stories. And then there were the times he promised he would call and didn’t and the no-show with no explanation. I did the same as you. I prayed. I went away on a 4-day camping trip and prayed for the truth. I hoped for the best but feared the worst. I returned to 25 messages on my voice mail telling me how much in love with me he was, how his divorce had finally come through, along with his medical discharge from the army, and how we can finally be together. I was elated. He came down to visit me and to be intimate. It was our last time together because he was supposed to bring his young daughter up to meet me the next day. He never showed. He never called. That’s when I knew something was very wrong. But I didn’t know what until I saw a photo of him on our mutual internet forum where I had met him. It was a recent picture he had just posted. In fact, he was posting it during the time he was supposed to be driving up to see me. I guess he was unaware he was wearing his wedding ring in the photo. That was the beginning of the end for me. I still hadn’t fathomed what had just happened. So I had a girlfriend who didn’t know him call him and three-way me into the conversation unbeknownst to him. That’s when I heard him lie three times to her without missing a beat! It was not his wedding ring; it was a friendship ring; that he loved me so much but the army was interfering with his divorce and his medical discharge, blah blah blah. His lies seemed so convincing that my friend believed him. When I finally told her he had lied to her, she was enraged. Her rage helped me to finally see what he was – some sort of monster. Just like yours.
Fortunately, because he truly WAS in the army, my testimony was very damning to him. He was trying to defraud the army out of a phony medical discharge. He was faking symptoms with them for 2 years! But he had never done that with me. I ended up showing them photos and turning in the 25 voice mails. The army believed me. I don’t know what ever happened to him except I know he was convicted of fraud and adultery. I will never forget the humiliation and despair I felt the day the two army officers, dressed in full uniform, sat in my living room and took my statement while I cried. I even feared for my life after that because I didn’t know what he was capable of!
The moral of the story (I mean this in a humorous way) is that if you are going to meet a sociopath, meet one in the army because the army doesn’t put up with that crap. It was very satisfying to me to hear he was caught and punished, though I’m sure wherever he is, he’s scamming a new victim.
This all happened 8 years ago, Adelaide. I only dated him for 3 months and yet I remember the utter and total devastation I felt. I wanted to take my own life for several months. The only comfort I have to give you is that the same spiritual power that showed me what he was also helped me recover. It took about a year for me after the mere 3-month relationship. However long it takes for you, you will recover, and life will be good for you again, too.
Would anyone care to comment as to why Joe told his wife he had been with Adelaide for a year and a half?
I’m absolutely positive it was a scheme.
Number one, he wanted to keep her in check, and number two, I bet he got all kings of pity when he cried to his wife about how sorry he was.
And Adelaide, I’m sorry for your experience. Thank you for sharing your story. Knowledge is power!
💖 Dee
Erica Dee,
In my opinion, I don’t think Adelaide spoke with Joe’s wife. Adelaide got too close to the truth and she was coming strong on suspicions, so Joe had to push her off from his comfort zone a bit. He probably got an old friend with fringe benefits to call pretending he’s Mrs. Joe
Read that paragraph again of the 2 ladies’ first conversation on the phone. The demeanor presented by the wife is not consistent with a woman who’s just found out her husband has been cheating on her. Look at the Hollywood line, “oh you told him that? That’s funny because I told him the same thing.” That’s a staged reaction. Joe’s real wife is probably not aware of this mistress, she’s playing the good mother and wife role. If those separation papers were real and they were trying to work on their marriage, Joe got a friend to help fix the mess so it doesn’t ruin things which he’d supposedly been working on with his wife.
I feel really sorry for Adelaide because she’s so trusting and boy do those sociopaths ever use that to hook and trap their victim. It almost appears as if even after the volcanic discovery of the truth, Adelaide and Joe still tried to perhaps work on their relationship. I’ve been there done that. I know exactly how you missed him and took him back. I’m glad you’re free from that trap now. It’s not your fault. You are not the one who looks out for opportunities in others to exploit them, so you were blindsided by this man.
For you own sake, I hope you’ve really worked through the pain and forgiven yourself because that’s the first step to clear vision. Know that you are not the wrong one. You are not a victim either, but a two times survivor. Try to read a bit more about the mind of a sociopath versus Psychopath and also read a lot on narcissistic personality disorder. As a nurse, I’m sure you’re familiar with those conditions. However, trust me, as a survivor you’ll find that nursing school and career barely scratched the surface of these disorders. Arm yourself will and prevent a 3rd one from finding your vein to suck on.
You are brave Adelaide, to have the courage to come out of the closet he’s tucked you in, and talk openly about it. You’re in the right path to recovery. Don’t stay on the ground for too long. If it gets overwhelming, get a good Therapist.
All the best,
From another survivor
It’s possible that it wasn’t his wife, but it’s also possible it was. He could have set up a situation with a ‘confession’ and ‘promise’ to end the affair if the wife found out and he didn’t want to lose her for whatever benefits she provides him. A woman manipulated for many years by a cheater may not have the emotional resources to think and act rationally.
Saying she tells him the same thing may be a staged line, but it’s also possible that both women would respond to him the same way since he’s the same person in both exploitive relationships.
There’s no way to know, everything a cheater says may be a lie or it may be true. It’s random – based only on what he thinks he should say to get him whatever he wants.
His wife gets the prize. And you are free.
Becoming strong: i like your comment…short, sweet, and the TRUTH! I try to apply it to myself by saying i’m free and my sociopaths fiance’ has the “prize”.
These stories just break my heart. I’m still dealing with the pain the sociopath caused in my life. After i figured out and confronted him about having a fiance (that i had to find out about on my own)while proclaiming to be in a loving relationship with me for 6 months the first thing i screamed was EVIL!!! This is some kind of evil and i still have a hard time believing people can do this to other people.
It is indeed hard to believe that some people can hurt others intentionally.
Bev- i always tell my therapist i feel like i’m in denial that people can be this evil and that a sociopath is not always a serial killer and she tells me to keep reading and educating myself as much as possible and she’s right…100%!!!
I know…she is right!
I have to keep reading and absorbing this site and ither things on SPs all of the time, because doubt always seems to creep in eventually.
I think that we must reinforce the facts, often.
Begging your pardon, but when I read comments like this I wonder if some people still don’t QUITE get it about psychopaths and the way they think.
I could be wrong of course, but the way I see it, in cases of this kind, this fellow Joe and others like him are not “hurting others intentionally” at all!
Mind you, I’m not denying for one moment that they ARE hurting others! They’re doing that all right! And I’m not denying either that psychopaths very often DO “hurt others intentionally”—out of anger, to punish someone, or often simply to indulge pure sadism. For instance, I remember that female from “Sociopath World” admitting openly that she took pleasure in “ruining” people—her own word!
All I’m suggesting is that in situations like the one described here, people like Joe are not doing whatever they’re doing for the express purpose of hurting anyone. That’s not their goal. Their goal is something else—in this case to enjoy the many pleasures of an affair—and the fact that they’re hurting someone by doing so is to them just “collateral damage” they couldn’t avoid. They’re not necessarily hurting people for the sake of hurting people. Rather, they simply don’t care one way or another that they’re hurting people. Since they have no compassion for others, it’s all immaterial to them. All they care about is their own gratification.
It reminds me of that old saying that “you can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs.” I might have to break several eggs to make an omelet, but I’m not doing it out of any hatred of eggshells or some twisted desire to destroy as many eggshells as I can! My only goal is to get at the egg inside! The fact that eggshells have to be broken to get at the contents is neither here nor there. Except of course that eggshells don’t have feelings and don’t object to being broken—but PEOPLE do!
This may seem a purely academic point, but I have a suspicion that it might cause a mental block when normal people—particularly people who are very empathetic—try to comprehend the very existence of psychopaths. To start with, I suspect there’s a lot of “victim subjectivity” in some people’s understanding of psychopaths. As human beings, we’re all concerned with our OWN feelings and things that are done to US. And if what’s on our mind is being hurt by something that some abuser did, it may be too automatic to assume that OUR pain must be on the abuser’s mind as well. “I got hurt—therefore the abuser must be aware of that, and must have intended to hurt me!”
Yet that may not be true at all, and in many instances the conscienceless abuser probably didn’t even care whether we “got hurt” or not—and quite often wasn’t even thinking about it!
When people imply they have a hard time believing in the existence of evil, or something of the kind, I often wonder why—or whether I’m understanding them correctly. Surely there are enough cruel and terrible deeds in the world (and always have been) that nobody could deny the existence of “evil” in general—if we choose to call it that. Of course, it’s easier to see why people are in disbelief that evil is being inflicted on themselves! We all know that accidents and disasters are things that happen to other people, never to ourselves! Irrational or not, it’s part of human psychology to think that way.
Most of all, it’s easy to see why people would have a hard time believing that a person they thought they knew well and could trust was in fact a ruthless predator. I wonder if that’s what many people really mean when they have difficulty “believing” in evil: not the fact that evil exists, but the frightening fact that evil can take such deceptive forms and be hiding in places where we least expect it. If so, that’s entirely understandable!
However, I’m sure that projection plays a major role in this difficulty as well, particularly since some people seem to find it harder than others to grasp not only the existence, but the nature of what’s being called “evil.” Up to a point, we try to “understand” other humans by mentally “putting ourselves in their place” (consciously or otherwise). That works fine insofar as other people are similar to ourselves, and think and feel the way we do. Unfortunately this method of “projection” falls short insofar as other people are different from ourselves, have different values or think and feel in different ways. To comprehend someone like a psychopath, however “human” they appear at first glance, it may be necessary to see them more “objectively,” like an alien specimen being examined on a microscope slide.
I suspect this is what highly empathetic people are less likely to do on the whole, preferring to try to “understand” other humans through their own “feelings.” If so, this method is most likely to fall down when it comes to understanding psychopathic specimens of humanity (if they can be called “humanity”), and could very well make it harder for highly empathetic people even to grasp the existence of “evil.” (“I just can’t IMAGINE being like that—because these monsters are NOTHING like ME!”) By the same token, it’s one more reason why very empathetic people are more vulnerable to being taken in by psychopaths and other abusers.
Yet as I suggested at the beginning, an abuser’s desire to hurt other people at times may not be the hardest thing to grasp. Surely we can all at least imagine being angry enough at someone—for some well justified reason—to want to hurt or punish them in some way. We just wouldn’t want to hurt someone we love, that’s all, or profess to love.
Rather, my suspicion is that simply not caring—not even thinking—about the pain of others, the total absence of such concerns in the psychopath—may be much harder to imagine. This may be especially true for highly empathetic people who always have the feelings of others on their mind, and take those concerns for granted. The psychopath’s total absence of such concerns may to them seem utterly inconceivable.
It’s much the way we here on earth are surrounded by gravity that pulls us down all the time and keeps us, quite literally, “grounded.” Without being told otherwise, and since few of us have ever been rocketed into orbit, we all take gravity for granted and never imagine what the weightlessness of space must feel like if we were free of gravity.
But let’s not forget that gravity is in many ways a good thing. Paradoxically, the “freedom” of weightlessness makes many things harder—like pouring ourselves a drink, or going to the toilet! Despite our eternal wish to fly like an eagle, there are many good things about being “grounded,” in the sense I’m talking about here.
In the same way, with the psychopathic type of abuser it’s the absence of any concerns of “conscience” or the feelings of others that gives him or her the freedom to hurt and abuse people—if doing so happens to be part of the cost of indulging the psychopath’s greed or lust for other things. It may well be hard for a very empathetic person to imagine the emotional “freedom” to wreak such devastation on people’s lives.
But again, a “freedom” of this kind, unlike most freedoms, is not a good thing. What it amounts to is “freedom” from conscience—the conscience that keeps the rest of us, frustratingly at times, but very humanly, “grounded.”
Your post helped me.
Of course my SP son could hurt intentionally. He is probably not even thinking that at the time. He just wants what he wants.
Anyone can hurt intentionally if they want to. Any person. Like you said, for revenge, say. We all feel that at times…like we want revenge. I can’t say that I have ever intentionally hurt someone, though…I may have ‘wanted’ to or felt like I wanted to, but I can’t ever bring myself to intentionally hurt anyone.
SPs / Ps also do it unconsciously. Maybe we all do, if we are not aware that we are going to hurt someone at the time.
It is all so deep…
Brilliant post Redwald. I have in the past written here that when I finally ‘depersonalized’ the actions of the psychopath I was set free. I was never so eloquent is saying what it is I meant by depersonalizing. You have said it well, and it reflects my experiences with psychopaths.
At some point I realized for him it was “just” getting what he wanted, and having the freedom to do so; unencumbered by guilt, or caring how it would effect me.
Intellectually I could see that he registered how much he was hurting me, and he could see the tears. I could also see that he had zero feelings about my pain. Even more, he seemed to like that I was so hurt. As if this were further evidence of his greatness. My hurt served to further support his personal sense of importance. But I don’t think he wanted to hurt me…more he wanted to feel wanted, to have sex with lots of women, and to get as much money and support as he could find.
Totally detached. As you say he has the freedom to hurt without conscience.
That’s the difference…they are not sad that they hurt you…they are sometimes GLAD and HAPPY that they hurt you.
THAT is what I (we) cannot understand, perhaps. The joy that THEY get from hurting others…
You know Bev I don’t think he was ‘happy’ that he hurt me. He was inflated that I was hurt ABOUT him. He was self-congratulatory that HE was THAT important (Narcissism). It had nothing to do with me. It was totally about HIM. All of it. And, in the end, I saw him as more robotic than happy. Just a human simulation.
Not happy, not sad, not anything really; other than driven by his narcissism, entitlement, and dominating/twisted personality. He could only ‘animate’ himself by taking his ‘life force’ from other people’s reactions to him (be they good or bad).
In devaluing and dumping me my HURT became food for him, making him feel powerful. I think his final ‘blows’ to me were just about how he could feel more powerful. Like he was sucking the marrow from the bones, before he threw them in the fire.
He could MAKE me feel something, and it ‘sounded’ like what I felt was devastation over HIM. And in his mind he is totally amazing, and this helped to further confirm it.
No matter what we feel, if they are the reason we are feeling it, they feel powerful.
They need to be in control, feel powerful, and be the center of whatever ‘action’ they create. This position is like a drug for them, and they can and will do whatever it takes to create situations that will boost their sense of themselves (as powerful, in control, and central to all things). And because they have zero conscience they can do it over and over and over, and not care one iota about what it.
After a considerable amount of time NOT dealing with him or any other seriously disordered person, I can say what I really felt (besides betrayal) was SHOCK that such people exist. I believe much of my sadness and depression were about the horrible reality of it all. Not so much about him.
Slim
Yes, that makes more sense. Power. Look what I made happen.
Got it!
I see that for sure, in my SP son.
We can be glad that we don’t understand being happy from hurting others. I know that people like that exist, but I don’t really want to understand it any more than that.
@Redwald
Granted, P’s don’t care. But they often get ‘entertainment’ from hurting people. Perhaps it keeps them occupied. That sort of thing is written about on the P blogs and in forums and blogs for survivors. And in cases like this I think there’s a very high chance that part of the ‘entertainment’ is in the hurt that’s going to be inflicted. A lot of Ps are very, very aware of how the relationship is going to progress and drop tells to that effect (made up examples coming, but based on a lot of research): ‘Did you know I’m a monster?’, ‘There’s always pain in relationships’, ‘One of us is always stronger than the other and that can hurt the weaker one’, etc. Extra dupers delight from the tells. And there’s the additional angle that – possibly – they feed off emotions and that the more hurt they can inflict, the more emotional energy they can feed off.
Maybe some Ps are just focussed on get married – get money – get out, but perhaps other Ps are focussed on relationship = ‘entertainment’, where ‘entertainment’ = hurt? And obviously there are other reasons for relationships, too.
Spaths often do get pleasure from the power and control they feel in causing others harm. However, their precise motivation doesn’t really matter to me – if someone chooses behavior that he knows is causing another harm and pain, it’s deliberate enough regardless of what level the payoff is for him.
That’s the rub…it is deliberate. Especially when they get ‘discovered’ and they become angry and vindictive.
Hello everyone
I need some help / advice.
I was keeping a sort of journal, in my drafts in my email, where I had written all of my feelings about my SP son in sort of a letter to him. I actually did not intend to ever send it…however, while I was revising it this morning, which I do from time to time…I hit SEND instead of SAVE.
I had absolutely NO reason to send this letter to him. I have not had any contact with him for months. I was not angry at the time. I simply hit the wrong button.
Why am I worried? Mostly, I think, I am worried about my wonderful husband, his father, who has not full on board with me on this issue. The first thing I did when I had realized that I sent the email to my SP son, was frantically tell my husband that I had mistakenly sent it. It is instinct for me to tell him everything.
Now, I wish I had not told him. He was very angry with me and said that I need to phone my son and apologize! Well, no, that is not happening. I cannot even talk to my son any more.
Hi Bev,
I sympathize, as I’ve sent sensitive emails meant for someone else to the very wrong person a couple of times in my life. Here’s what I did when it happened to me.
Consider that it would probably not be breaking no contact with your son if you sent his email address a second email stating that the previous email was sent in error, please disregard it. You can add an apology for sending the email by mistake, which is not apologizing for your discernment, opinions, and decision not to have contact. It may appease your husband if you can tell him you apologized for sending the email, even though not by telephone. If your second email is very brief and business like it sets the tone for what you do wish to convey.
Beyond that, probably all you can do is hope and pray that there will be no negative consequences from your son having the information he has.
I understand your ambiguity about regretting telling your husband. Even if he’s disturbed and angry about the situation, there probably won’t be negative consequences from him knowing you sent it. If your son uses it in some way in the future, it may be good that your husband knows.
In your situation, it sounds like the repercussions in the family of knowing your thoughts could be a problem. I understand about not wanting your Father in Law to know. Your son is likely to use whatever you have written against you, to cause harm and trouble, if he can.
Here’s a couple of things I did when I sent emails by mistake:
I had replied to “all” with some advice for a friend who had forwarded me a hostile email from her family member. As soon as I realized what happened, I sent an email to him saying that “the email was sent by mistake, it was meant for someone else.” I felt so bad, but it blew over. My friend felt that in some ways it was good for him to know how she felt about things.
When I sent my ex psychopath (not yet ex at that time) an email by mistake, I went to the web email, was able to guess (or maybe I knew at that time, his email password) and I deleted my email from the web before he downloaded it to his computer. I tried not to look at any other emails in his account while I had it open. If your DIL knows your son’s password, maybe she can delete it for you? Trying to do that can make things worse, though, if it doesn’t work out right.
I wrote my ex psychopath probably hundreds of emails over several years that I never sent; they are still on my computer as a journal record for me. I found it very helpful for me to express myself in that way.
Thank you for helping me, AnnettePK.
I was freaking out, but of course, hours later, I am calm again.
Just to clarify, I only meant one person…my husband. My son’s father. That is who I was worried about telling that I mistakenly sent the email. My husband was fully aware of and has read that letter, so he already knew that I had written it. What caused me to hit SEND, this morning, I do not know. Fate perhaps.
I really did not intend for our son to ever see that letter. It was not necessary in any way, like I said.
I did try and email him again to say that although it was all true and how I really feel, that it was not intended for him to see. It promptly bounced back…yes, he blocked me. Oh well…lol…poor me 🙂
Now, hours later, I am thinking that this should have happened. I mean, why not? What is really the harm? My SP son will just think it is bullshit and get angry. Nothing new.
My husband, of course, tried to ‘smooth’ things over, quickly phoning our son to disregard and delete the email and not to even entertain the contents.
Am I angry about that? Not really. I know my that husband’s intentions are NEVER bad ones. It grinds my gears a bit that he ‘sided’ with him in this instance, but I am also a rational adult who can put myself in my husband’s shoes.
Thank you so much for listening. I was SO scared and worried and sad for my husband…but not for my SP son, who the letter will just slide off the back of.
Cheers and appreciation for the time that you took to help me. What a lovely person you are.
Bev
I have always been bothered that your husband has chosen your son over you. Your son has shown his colors and that doesn’t seem to matter to your husband.
I think you need to consider that when push comes to shove, your husband isn’t there for you. That’s not a happy thought, but he’s not “wonderful”, at the least, he’s enabling, and at most… he’s part of the abuse of you and your soon to be DIL and part of the abuse of your grandkids.
It is especially telling that he didn’t side with you or even empathize with your mistake. He holds you to a standard that he doesn’t hold an SP, that is HUGE. I know it’s hard. But I have learned a terrible lesson, but a very necessary one: Facing the truth serves me better in the long run. Had I done so, I would have protected myself better and set up support network and an escape plan. B/c when I finally could not avoid the truth anymore, I was nearly destroyed.
IT’s not a trivial thing that your husband is this way. Please take care.
Bev
Just a little clarification what I just posted.
Your husband is behaving like this situation is just two people in miscommunication, just butting heads, can’t see eye to eye.
I WISH it were so. But it’s not. Your son is Malevolent. He is DANGEROUS. Your husband is putting you in a very vulnerable position, you would have NO protection, he would be the one who opens the door to the ultimate destruction by your son. Remember, for most of us, murder is nearly impossible, but for your son, it’s merely a menu choice as unemotional choice as chocolate or vanilla.
And telling you to apologize to your son, You are an ADULT, not a child. That was totally inappropriate of your husband to have that attitude. As you know, it’s nothing to your son; it’s NOT like your son is open to an apology. he’s NOT made that way!
Bev,
Thanks for the update. It sounds like it’s turning out ok, and not too much harm done. Thank you for clarifying that ‘his father’ doesn’t refer to a third person, you were just pointing out your husband’s relationship and viewpoint.
Having a son with spath behavior must be so tragic and complex, and put huge strain on your marriage especially when you and your husband don’t agree on what action to take.
You might consider that from your husband’s point of view, he took the initiative to call your son to ask him to delete the email without reading, based on you having come to him in a panic. Your husband may be trying to do what he can to help, and as long as he didn’t put you down to your son, he may not really be taking sides. Your husband knows that you don’t want to call your son, so in that way he is supporting you and acquiescing to your desire not to make the call, and doing it himself if he wants it done. It may be an unrealistic request that your son not read the email, but that result would be almost as good as not having sent it by mistake in the first place. Your husband may have conveyed in his phone call the same basic message as you conveyed in your second email that got bounced – that the first email was sent by mistake.
It sounds like your son pretty much knows how you feel and that the contents of your email aren’t a surprise to him, anyway.
Consider that if your son wasn’t choosing pathological behavior none of the stress of these events would be happening. It’s part of the ripple effect that damages people and relationships, and consumes time and energy.
Once when I once sent the ex psychopath an email I regretted, I sent another asking him to delete without reading. He said ok; I have no idea whether he read it or not, but he acted as if he hadn’t read it.
Once the cat’s out of the bag, there’s not much one can do other than to say it was a mistake to send, if we believe exactly what we wrote.
After a couple of mistakes like that in my life, I now turn the manual wifi switch off on my old laptop when I’m editing something sensitive in email, so I can’t send by mistake.
Not,
I can see your point, but it’s worth considering that the husband didn’t ultimately force Bev to apologize, so the effect of it was expressing his opinion on what she should do. She did go to him for help in a crisis. His opinion can be valued and considered even if she doesn’t agree with him. If they can have open discussions, he may come to see her point of view more in time; and they can learn from each other.
You’re right that apologizing to a spath doesn’t have meaning to the pathological. When I apologized for something I’d done wrong to my ex spath, I did so for me – to ‘keep my side of the street clean.’ I knew that there was no valuable relationship between us to be repaired by my apology.
In Bev’s case, apologizing for the mistake of sending the email to let her son know that she did not make a decision to share the letter with him at this time, is not the same as apologizing for its contents nor for how she feels about his choices.
Oh my goodness…thank you all so much for everything that you are doing. You just selflessly avail yourselves to help us when we need it.
Both AnnettePK and Not…
You both are beyond wise and have valid points. Not is correct…my husband does not seem as if he is in my court, and he isn’t.
AnnettePK is also right. I know my husband. I have been with him for almost 40 years. A truly good soul, however, not always the best decision maker. This was a bad one on his part, to run to my son’s aid and try to head the letter off at the pass. I do not want him to choose a side…I want him to have NO CONTACT with our son, like I have. I cling to the hope that this will eventually happen. My husband clings to the hope that things could be different…never going to happen, of course.
I did not apologize to my son at all, but rather, sent an email stating that it was a journal for me and that I erroneously sent it instead of saving it. There was no ‘sorry’ in it nor alluded to. I have nothing to ever apologize for, Not, you are so correct!
You know, I am not going to let our son destroy us. I love my husband and we have a great life…when our son is not in it.
My husband sees that, but is hanging on to that last vestige of hope that is really non existent.
Thank you both so much. Like I said, I don’t know what I would do or where I would be without people like you that are so selfless and willing to help.
My god…this is almost surreal
Bev,
Thanks for your thoughts. In my experience everything about this kind of pathology is surreal and beyond true comprehension.
It has got to be so difficult that you and your husband don’t agree on whether to have contact or not. I imagine the everyday logistics are very stressful. Is your husband respectful of your choice? Does he acknowledge your point of view although he disagrees with it? Will he cooperate with you in your choice not to have contact? Is it possible for each of you to respect the other’s choice, even though you don’t agree?
With patience and respect of his choice to continue contact, it may be that in time as your son continues his pathological behavior, that your husband will find that no contact is the best choice for him, too. It would be wonderful if your son changed his motives and his behavior, but sadly, it’s not likely to happen. You may be ahead of your husband in figuring things out, and if you are able to step back and out of the pathological dynamics, your husband will experience the reality of your son’s motives and behavior.
Yes, AnneteePK…yes
My husband definitely knows about acknowledges my point of view and does understand why I cannot have contact. He does cooperate on that. He has finally stopped asking me to go visit, or to have him come here.
I am not convinced, however, that it is possible to live with his choice of wanting to continue contact…FOR ME.
I am truly hoping that what you said will eventually happen. That my husband will be hit between the eyes, like I was, with the glaring reality of the situation and that no contact is the only way.
Sounds like it’s worth seeing how things go and if you and your husband will find a way to deal with the situation.
Some things that come to my mind:
You probably won’t have complete no contact as long as your husband is interacting with your son. If your husband shares with you details of their interactions, etc., it may trigger the effect that your choice of no contact is supposed to protect you from.
As long as your husband is having contact, situations may arise where you inadvertently have contact. There is a helpful technique for interacting with spaths when one must have contact called greyrock. In my experience it is the only thing that ‘works’ in dealing with a spath. http://www.lovefraud.com/2012/02/10/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/
If your husband doesn’t share things with you about his interactions with your son, it creates a part of your lives that are separate and has the effect of drawing you apart from one another – there is always this part of your lives that you cannot share with one another. That is bound to be a difficult effect to deal with.
I wonder if your son does not ‘hook’ your husband as much as you get ‘hooked’ in, due to circumstances or whatever reason, your husband doesn’t get as embroiled in the effects of your son’s pathological choices.
It also occurs to me that your son likely will do whatever he can to create conflict between you and your husband; and he may feel it’s a victory for him if you and your husband separate, and he will do whatever he can to bring that about.
I understand that if your husband continues to interact with your son it may be a deal breaker for you. If you’re like me, it wouldn’t work for you if your husband goes along with no contact just because you have made that choice, without really believing it’s best.
I wonder if your husband feels like he has to choose between you and son. It would be inaccurate for him to blame you, rather than your son’s choices and circumstances, for the position he’s in, but it’s often human nature to do so.
If you get to the point where you cannot live with the situation of your husband having contact with your son, I can only imagine how complex the decision facing you would be. Considering the pros and cons of separating, and considering how you feel your marriage vows fit into things, and how separating would affect others, seems incredibly complex.
I’ve been dealing with a situation in my life where an on going situation contains a deal breaker for me – I have been waiting for years for something to change, meditating, praying and fasting about it. It’s like a black cloud that hangs over my life that just doesn’t go away. There are so many factors to the situation that make it almost impossible for me to come to a decision to make a change – I can’t find peace for me in either choice I see. I just continue to wait, and hope something changes.
AnnettePK
I always appreciate that you have a different perspective than I do, you give me other things to consider, whereas sometimes I am merely responding to the words as I read them (echoing in my mind).
Like you describe, I have had things get “stuck”, and seemingly not see the solution. I have a process that has helped me, might seem silly to you, but worth trying. If it doesn’t work, you haven’t lost anything.
I am a faith based person. I pray when I go to sleep. I state the problem (but not my solutions or the “stuck” part) and only the problem. I ask for GOD to help me find a way through my dilemma, and end my prayer, “YOUR Will be done”. That’s it, I do not ruminate on it any more. If my mind tries to take me there, I force a story into my mind, or think about a beautiful place I have enjoyed, but I make the prayer and let it go.
THEN, the next morning as I begin to wake, I think on the problem again. (Sometimes I have to write out a note to myself and tape it to my bedside to see it as I wake. This is something I would have done BEFORE I said the prayer the night before.) The answer may not come the first morning, sometimes I’ve done it for a week, but… I get an answer.
Just a technique that has worked for me.
(I think the prayer and letting it go during a certain brain wave phase is like clearing the mind psychologically, so that the mind can answer back… but I am faith based and choose to believe that GOD sends a message via an angel.)
Best,
nwhsom
Yes on so may levels, AneetePK.
Thank you for another thoughtful post.
Being so called ‘type-A’, I definitely take my SP son’s pathology much more to heart. I swear my husband can just let that go and look beyond it. My husband is so laid back.
He truly believes that my son and I are simply personality clashing…yeah right. Of course we are!
Yes, our son would love to see up break up, ESPECIALLY if that looks like my husband choosing him over me. OMG, what a victory that would be. It’s almost stupid that I have to be careful to not let anything ‘look’ like it is a competition, to my husband.
I am not trying to sway my husband to ‘my side’. I want my husband to truly SEE…that is all.
Also, I believe that my husband does think that he has to choose. I tell him that he does not even have to declare to have no contact. He doesn’t NEED to tell my son or anyone anything. I didn’t. My husband is mostly the one who initiates contact now, anyway. Like, after I erroneously sent my son that email yesterday. He felt he that he had to stave things off at the pass and apologize for me. All my husband has to do is fade out of the picture and not initiate contact. I swear, that at this moment in time, it would be that easy. My son is aware that I am finished with him.
It is becoming more and more of a deal breaker with me that my husband has contact. I know that kit cannot work for us as a couple. My husband yearns for me to ‘just love my son’ and ‘just be a mother’. He can’t let the fact go that he and I both love OUR mothers, and our mothers love us. What is the matter with me? Can’t I just be an adult and accept him?? Also, the fact that my husband has my son’s back more than mine, because he feels sorry for him and thinks that nobody else cares about him. When they spend any time together, or talk, tensions between us get worse. Not just on my part, either, but because of what they talk about…like ME.
It’s the HARDEST thing. I really hope I survive this dark cloud that is always hanging above us…
Like you, I too seem to be waiting for something to change. Am I waiting for my husband to see the light?
It sounds pathetic, but I want to spend the rest or our lives together, like we planned for all of our so far almost 40 years together.
I’m reading The Sociopath Next Door. It’s helping me so much. I fully recommend it.
Dee
EricA: i am also reading it at the recommendation of my therapist. It is very informative and an eye opener. Good book!!!
Does the sociopath, psychopath, narcissist INTEND to inflict damage, or is he/she only unconcerned with damages? The chicken or the egg, it seems.
I just read “Transforming Narcissism: Reflections on Empathy, Humor, and Expectations,” by Frank L. Lachman.
Note that this is a professional study, and the author does NOT claim that an individual can “transform narcissism.”
He writes about “transforming aggression,” stating that “these men recreate their own experiences of betrayed trust, shattered self-confidence, and the violation of all expectations of feeling safe in a predictable world by creating repetitive betrayals of others and violations of their expectations of living in a safe, predictable world. They act with intention to establish a feeling of trust JUST TO VIOLATE THIS EXPECTATION.”
AND THIS VERY POINT, according to Lachman, “constitutes the essence of perversion.”
Many primary models of the dynamics of abuse are based in victim-blaming, claiming such things as the victim choosing to be the victim, or claiming “trauma bonding,” or claiming “Stockholm Syndrome,” or claiming that the victim has a history of abuse or co-dependency.
READ “Stalking the Soul,” and EXCELLENT book that cuts through these victim-blaming concepts and practices.
If someone hurts others inadvertently, as soon as he comes to understand that his behavior harms others, he stops doing the harmful behavior, he apologizes, he asks forgiveness, and he makes amends if possible; in order to repair the relationship.
You know Annabelle…I think they can DECIDE to hurt us, just like anyone else. They have a choice about crashing your car, or telling you something hurtful. They can consciously decide to do that, just like the rest of us.
Whether they come up with an idea or act on impulse is not so important. Because if they are far enough along the continuum of being disordered, what they cannot do is stop themselves from taking what they want whenever they want it. They don’t have ‘breaks’ on their psyche, so they are compelled to do things to get what they want, even if it is devastating to people around them.
The ‘breaks’ we normal people have are our conscience, empathy, and guilt. These act as emotional breaks for us, so we generally don’t choose to do awful things, because it makes us feel BAD.
Imaging if you didn’t feel BAD. But instead felt either nothing, or felt satisfied that you got what you wanted, or felt powerful for making someone else react. Or maybe you felt ‘tickled’ that you ‘pulled one over’ on someone?
You could do just about anything if that was your emotional feedback system.
I absolutely agree with you. In fact, I KNOW that my ex-husband planned for many years to financially destroy me when I retired. A top-ranking professional in sex addiction recovery told me that my ex-husband calculates for long-term damages, likely already has next steps planned out for several years. I also know that he enjoys manipulating people, and that he feels deep, sadistic glee at causing damage.
It took me a long time to fully accept and understand that he acted with intention to destroy me. He created a convincing false self of a nice guy, supportive, loyal, committed to me and my children. The entire time, he was betraying each of us in multiple ways, smearing our characters, sabotaging our relationships, discrediting us, and, most of all, he was involved in hundreds of sexual affairs, and even ENGAGED to several other women! He is a predator, and I think that the ONLY way that he would ever become a healthy being would be RADICAL, long-term, residential, intensive treatment, and then spend his life alone on an island. Not going to happen. Further, he has NO real desire to change–he greatly enjoyed playing therapists, attorneys, 12 Step colleagues, family, everyone.
I also read Lachman’s work as stating exactly that the “narcissist” acts with intention to shatter the sense of safety in other people’s lives.
Yes, yes… I agree with you… I did not mean to claim that I believed that they were innocent victims of their own flawed personalities.
FURTHER, IF he had any remorse, any desire for wellness, he would be paying the meager alimony ordered by the court. Nope. He acts with intention to manipulate and damage others. Absolutely.
IN FACT, I know that my ex-husband FABRICATED many tales of childhood abuse for his therapist… It was part of his sadistic manipulation–he played victim and EVERYONE believed him. None of it was true.
So, do psychologists ever understand the sociopath, narcissist?
I did see one therapist who told me to stop all contact immediately, AND she became very frightened that he might at some point attempt to damage her. She had previous experiences with sociopaths, and she knew the extent of the damages he could inflict.
Oh my, the stories he told therapists… even about his mother… all false.
You could do just about anything if that was your emotional feedback system.
Slim, you could literally have not said it better.
Like a car with faulty breaks, that may run over someone, by accident, a car without breaks should never be driven.
And given the reckless driver, I certainly wish I had either stayed off the road or had been driving a faster car so that I could have quickly passed and avoided getting run over and landing in this big valley!
@Wini Anderson
You’ve left her real name in:
‘X,I have to say something and I hope you don’t hate me for it ‘