By | February 11, 2008 141 Comments

If you’re vulnerable, sociopaths will pounce

Last week Lovefraud posted a new True Lovefraud Story about a con artist named Dennis SanSeverino. The creep pretended to be loving and rich long enough to convince his victim to trust him. Then he took her home and inheritance.

This story is a classic case of a sociopath targeting the vulnerable.

When the victim, Trish Rynn, met SanSeverino, she had just endured a difficult breakup with her boyfriend. In the months that they got to know each other—Rynn initially refused his many dinner invitations—he must have been listening intently as she chatted about her life. Rynn’s ex-husband was physically abusive. After the marriage ended, Rynn spent 10 years in court fighting child custody and child support battles. The strain sent her into clinical depression, from which she was just beginning to recover.

Rynn was vulnerable, and SanSeverino was attracted like a shark to blood in the water.

SanSeverino started taking Rynn’s money—under the guise of helping her, of course. When Rynn found herself in serious debt due to him, she slipped back into depression. That’s when SanSeverino took her house and the rest of her inheritance.

Sad stories made worse

Lovefraud has heard these truly sad stories over and over again: Grief-stricken people who have lost a spouse or a child, and then lose their insurance settlement to a sociopath. Disabled people who are targeted because they get a minimal subsidy from the government. People struggling to care for someone else—like children or elderly parents—who learn that the assistance promised by a sociopath makes their burdens worse.

And then there are the lonely. Anyone who is lonely for any reason is walking target for a sociopath.

Vigilance when vulnerable

It’s sad, really. When we have problems and need help, we want to be able to trust that offers of assistance are real. When we’re looking for companionship, we want to be able to believe that the person pursuing us is sincere.

But the truth is that when we’re vulnerable, we need to be especially vigilant. Sociopaths are predators, and wounded prey make for an easy kill.

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Yep…. it happened that way with me… wife died.. had the insurance settlement… and then from nowhere she appeared.. beautiful beyond my dreams.. charming…and she was interested in ME….. she rode the wave with me for a year… I spent a ton of money on her.. thought she would always be there.. she made promises… she cried tears…. she pretty much said what I longed to hear…. then she was gone….. I got schooled in the ways of evil…. but it’s ok now… I learned from my mistakes, and thanks to this place.. I will see the red flags forever….. I became humbled…. forgave myself and her….. and now I’m a wiser guy for it all… I must admit… I had a lot of fun with her… but with a big price…. I’ll be ok.. and I know that not every woman is like that…. I’m not jaded….but hopeful…. bad things happen to good people, but also.. people will treat you like you let them….. it’s a fact.. but I am determined that I won’t let what she did to me and to my son ruin the rest of my life and my outlook about life… I know that it could have been so much worse…. yeah.. I wasted a couple of years of my life, and several thousands of dollars.. but in the end…. I come out ahead…. I am no longer vulnerable….my education took me along a road of heartache and betrayal…I’m smart and wise and for the first time in my life, I love myself enough to not feel the need to please someone else.. to try and make them happy, so they will be with me…. for now I know that it’s really about my heart, my mind, my charector… and if those things are not enough for you to want to be with me.. then by all means… take a hike. It all made me look within.. and to see the things in me that needed attending to….. the parts of me that gave her a license and a green light to manipulate…. I worked on fixing those things in me…..I believe that all of us here will arrive at the point, when we will look back and see the advancement of growth in ourselves that came from having the bad luck of running into a sociopathic person who took advantage of our vulnerbility… and our desire to have and give love to another.

Thanks. I dealt with the devil too. I’m trying to heal. It’s a long journey. I found this blog last week. Thank you, Ms. Andersen.


>It’s sad, really. When we have problems and need help, we want to be able to trust that offers of assistance are real. When we’re looking for companionship, we want to be able to believe that the person pursuing us is sincere.


my post keeps truncating and only keeping the quoted part 🙁
great article!

I foolishly thought the S was the love of my life…we’d had a really casual relationship, off and on, spanning several years and then one that was more real…until he poofed again. So when I wanted to reach out to him, I kept him on my group email list and one day I sent my blog.

BIG MISTAKE. When a few years passed and my life began to go through serious trials, he popped out of the woodwork again. Still blind to P and S ideas, I naively thought he really did love and miss me…not that he’d been gathering info on how to best seek and destroy.

I tend not to let other people in when it comes to problems in my personal life. I’ll talk about them, but never ask anyone to step-in and help. Consequently, it was a mighty lonely time as my parents became more and more incapacitated. His arrival seemed like a Godsend.

Too bad it was a Satansend and I had to toss it back on the return counter — but not before it damaged my trust and intuition levels. I WILL trust again. I will. There’s no legacy I want from that man, but the last thing I’d ever let him accomplish is to kill my trust in other people.

We have to believe in the goodness of life beyond the P/S. We saved ourselves for just that purpose!!


We ARE all trying to save ourselves! And I must say, although it is a long hard journey of recovery at least we are now on it. Because of the pain caused by My S it led me to this site, therapy, and back into school for distraction (and my BA). So I guess looking at the flip side of things he actually forced me to take a closer look inside myself. I am broken put not beyond repair. As I forge forward I am realizing that the rear view mirror is quite small compared to what I can see ahead of me. It is easier said then done and you do begin struggling, I still do. But I will, I know I will come out of this storm a stronger and even better person! He has not won and never will. I pray for the day that I no longer dwell on the questions in my head. And I can yell Victory is mine and I celebrate ME!

Yes, change06 — We ARE!! What you mention, leaping into other things to get away from the pain…weird, but in the strangest way after the Wolf (I’ll call him that – always did to his face, anyway, and Bad Man belongs to AlohaTraveler), I was always a better person. Not to give him credit. Just more to say that my own stubbornness drove me to improve my life, or reflect on what was wrong with me, what I needed to work on.

This may be the one silver-lining of interaction with Wolf and Weasel S types. When the fog lifts, or as it is lifting, we’re so struggling to find our footing and our selves that we come away much grown for the experience.

Not to say the experience is worth it. No way. Just to say we can create value from nearly any experience if we’re true to ourselves and incorporate events into useful learning devices.

This, along with loving others, empathy, vulnerability and trust, is another quality the S does not have, hates us for having and wants desperately to steal. How great is it that we not only OWN these qualities, but use them to heal ourselves after the S is out of the picture?

(I picture a bunch of S guys sitting around like frustrated Rumplestiltskins upon being called by their true names!! They can’t like it at all that we bounce back STRONGER….if nothing else drives any of us after the initial shock and trauma of an N/S experience, maybe this is a start….)


Ok, I believe this will be by far the most evil deed by a female sociopath. My soon to be ex-wife I caught cheating 4 months after the birth of my second son. For some reason, dont ask me why, I had a paternity test done. I just wanted to know, yes I know the paternity test seems like a mean thing to get done, and yes, I agree today that there was no need, so lets not go there. So anyway the results of the test, I found out my first son had none of my DNA, but the second son did.

Now you think that is bad, it gets better. My X had problems ovulating and was taking fertility medication. This means at some point we wanted children and we went to the doctors to see what the deal was. The doctor gave my wife medication and we went to work. The crazy thing is we had a schedule of what days during the month things needed to happen, yes a schedule when pregnancy was optimal or you could say in sociopath terms, we had a schedule when you probably should not cheat on your husband. So anyway the courts do not care how evil this really is, they are like so how does this prove she is an unfit parent. I can only respond with, first you have to prove to me that she is human, then I will prove that she is an unfit mother.

So my sociopath lied to everyone for 5 years, and yes she knew the entire time, but felt ok with that. So my perfectly innocent 5 year old boy who has done nothing to hurt anyone gets to one day be told that the dad in his life that is his dad and will be the only dad he knows, is not his bio father – Machiavellian is not good enough to describe the pure evil of a sociopath.

righteous woman

Hi Mongo,

Men and women alike do sick averse things to their children, that potentially run the risk of a child seeing their other parent in a negative light, when all along it was the sociopaths evilness. I will share a story.

When I was pregnant he urged me to get an abortion, then when I had my son he was over-joyed. “Every man wants to have a son” He promised to be there for me and his son. Then, we had no contact for nearly a year. He started to come around again shortly after my sons 1st birthday. At that time he criticized that my son was bow legged when he walked and insisted it wasn’t natural. He had been walking about 6 weeks at the time. He was appalled that I hadn’t potty trained him yet. He agreed to make time to see his son and be with him, but as it turned out would only come over in the evening before our son went to bed, and then, once he got the timing down, afterwards “Oh, I missed him?? Darn…”

As our son grew, he never took him on his own. Claiming that he was living with a bunch of men, with assorted bad habits, and that he much more enjoyed being with both of us. But I saw no quality time going on between father and son, as much as between mommy and daddy.

Around the time my son turned 3, I told his father that this wasn’t him being a parent. He had claimed he wanted this responsibility, but was not making any kind of an effort. We did not hear from him until 3 months later. I get a phone call from him, that he wanted to take his son for the weekend. It was what I wanted and I was glad – maybe I got through to him.

Visitation was inconsistant, but it was happening. His father had moved in with a woman (who turned out to be a sociopath herself, which just made things worse) and essentially, he was taking his son over there, to play with her 6-year old, and she was given the duty of caring for both of them. At the time, I didn’t know that that was what was going on. I honestly thought my son was spending quality time with his father.

Like I said, visitation was inconsistent at best. And after a discussion, he said he would take his son 3.5 days a week while I worked (he was jobless of course, and he was living off her while she was defrauding welfare and had several thousand in the bank from a slip an fall lawsuit scam at a local grocery store).

This arrangement only happened one time. She called my boss at work and said I had abandoned my son at her house, and that I was claiming that my child was her boyfriends son, and she wanted my boss to know what kind of person she had working for, that I was a person that would just abandon a child with basically a stranger.

Well, I knew nothing as to why this was happening. I was shocked, I cried, and picked my son up that day, with his father…and he came back to my house saying she was crazy, she was lazy, she didn’t have ambition like me, and she was jealous because of our tie, and she was trying to break it.

So he ends up going home to her, and things settled down for awhile, until I went to drop my now 4-year old off with her house. She opens the door and screams, “This B! is always trying to dump her son off at my house.” So, I thought it was time we had a conversation.

Turned out, my ex had said that I was some girl he had met at a club and went home with…According to the story, I went home with everyone from the club…but that I had this baby and swore it was his. He said he feared for the little child’s life and upbringing, being with such a reckless woman as myself, and he was doing the good Christian thing, by making sure this boy had a consistent male role model, while I, his mother, ran wild in the world. Of course, she had only heard this story RIGHT before my sons 1st weekend visit when he was 3, BUT she had already known my sons father a year or so by that time, and he had told her that he had NO kids, when he actually had two. He had a daughter also, but the daughter was his spitting image…but our son….he was a blend of both of us genetically, and he could use those slight differences to his “advantage” whatever that was.

My sons father was playing both of us against the other, and I ended up getting a restraining order against him shortly thereafter. That gave me about a year or so of peace, but then the child support issues started and so on….

Anyhow, My sons father liked his contrived story so much, at one point, around the time our son was 14, he told me he couldn’t wait until his son was 18 so he could tell him what kind of mother his son really had. And then my ex told me he would tell him that lie, that he really didn’t know if he was his father or not – etc. It was apparent, he believed his own lie. I had dated him for 4 years before I got pregnant….but here he was, threatening to alienate my son from me as soon my son was of a legal age.

Well, by the time my son was 14, I had had enough of the sociopath. My son was abandoned, treated badly and disregarded. My son was told by one of his cousins from his father, the psychopath, promised the cousin his car (that was facing repossession until he found a new female to pay off the loan) that when he “replaced that car, which would be any day now,” my sons father promised the car to his nephew..not to his own child. It is the little things like that that destroys a persons self esteem. As we all know, our self esteems were ruined over time…they were chipped away from us, by the gaslighting, the ‘helpful’ suggestions, the harsh critisizims, the comparisons to other people, the cheating, the lying…..

I know parental alienation is wrong, when a parent is actively working to make that child into a functioning member of society and always has their best interest at heart. What is it when they are not working with the other parent, actively to achieve this goal? The child is now something to eventually be controlled? But that is when I started…not all at once, but as his maturity developed, and scenarios presented, characters or plot points in the media, opened the lines of communication….I made sure my son knew he was highly valued, and that his father was sociopathic. It is an illness, but it infects everyone the sociopath ‘bonds’ with. My sons mental health, self esteem and ability to value, empathize, and make logical conclusions – and above all, to trust his instincts at all times, was the most important thing. Like a deer eating in the tall shrub, he should run if he hears a twig snap, even if he can’t see a possible hunter. I had to be sure that is was conveyed rationally and without a hint of paranoia or that I was overly cynical. It is a fine fine line.

Mongo, I hope you provide a way to keep the lines of communication open with your 5 year old child, and the bond of love is as strong as if he was of your DNA. Perhaps a counselor who has worked with the courts and is familiar with this type of maternal deception can help guide you on the appropriate steps to take and how to honestly broach this information with the child as they develop, and not like the last minute alternative “Hey great, you are graduating from high school, oh and by the way, I am not your ACTUAL father”.

Also, remember that genetically, this child is more predisposed to developing the sociopathic character, especially when being primarily raised by a sociopathic female. Sad but true. My sons father was raised by a female sociopath, with no male role-models, except the male victims of his mothers, that circulated in and out of his childhood. Information regarding that is located somewhere in this site, I am sure Diane, Lianne or Dr.Steve can lead you to that information easily.

Good luck, and stay strong. Women are not self-destructive, manipulating, train wrecks. Your own mental health is important for your children, and with that, you can have a bonded, meaningful relationship.

Lastly, document, document, document…see a psychologist and get a good attorney. If it puts you into debt, it will be the best debt you ever paid, because it is selfless and done out of love. You can make this situation work so your life isn’t chaos.


Hi righteous woman,
Great advice, an NO, I have no intention of letting my son out of my life. I am currently fighting with every cent I have to get 50% custody, which for a male is an impossible task. I am fighting so hard to be around my son who will one day figure out I am not his bio dad, but my sociopath is trying to keep me away from him to punish me for something I had nothing to do with – What the hell”My bond with my first son is enormous and you’ll need more than a forklift driven by a sociopath to pry me away from him. I agree with your statements “remember that genetically, this child is more predisposed to developing the sociopathic character” Every visitation with my children I spend time teaching lessons of empathy. I don’t know if you can counter a genetic predisposition in this manner, but I will never give up trying.

righteous woman

Hi mongo,

My son has complete apathy now towards his father..which is sad…because it is not what I wanted for my son, it is not what he wants, but necessary for his survival. Now, at 17, he is a kind, loving, young adult, As a young child I saw behavioral characteristics in him that matched his father….I had to instill proper values ie; we don’t make fun of someone for their weight, the way they are dressed, how they talk, where they come from, their race etc. Everybody has a story, every person is valuable.

If you are in a receiving mood for advice, may I add, always be on time, always be the one they can depend on, always be the one that they can talk openly with, be mindful to not criticize them for how they think or what they say, and make sure they know that anything opposite is not appropriate in an interpersonal relationship. I mean, I know it is so basic for us as good people, but as the normal parent – we have to be conscience at all times for that, it will be much easier for them to develop the reasoning and logic it will take for them to contend with their sociopathic parent. Contend with their own emotions, their own hurt, and leave an opening for them to come and talk to you. And at the same time, you are teaching them empathy.

I have asked my son “What if your father and I were two peas in a pod?” He says he would be goalless, no self esteem, dropped out of school and doing drugs. I just dropped him off at an inner city school where he is a “Big Brother”. I couldn’t be prouder!! He is so thankful that he trusts me completely.


Insightful posts and Mongo, your approach towards your children with the S is so heartwarming, especially good to hear from a man with such decent values. While we rant about our S’s we have to remember they are only 1 in 25 and there are 6 billion people on the planet.

I want to say that yes, if we are vulnerable they pounce, but the really clever ones get us to do the pouncing for them, by making themselves appear vulnerable, in need of our TLC.

Mine was so saintlike, in his devotion to his mentally handicapped daughter, the tragedy of his severely disabled son who was in an institution, that he stayed in a loveless marriage for 20 years, despite his ex’s many problems and repeated mental breakdowns.

Such a man.And so I rationalized breaking my cardinal rule of “no married men” after he had gently pursued me for several years. After all this poor selfless hardworking guy deserved some happiness too, no? And I was a single mom and lonely. He was at the pinnacle of his brilliant career. We married and had two healthy children. There were of course some red flags, he was being criminally charged for fraud, but none of it his fault you see. I stood by my man.

The fact that he dumped me emotionally the minute I was barefoot and pregnant took years to comprehend. He was pre-occupied with “business” stressed from work, I was blue, postpartum, too needy, whatever.

How could a person stay for 25 years? Well in my case, I always believed that deep down he was the most decent person, and deep down he loved me., and he had been faithful to me.

Why would a S stay with one person all that time, not go for new supply? Well it turns out I guess he did, only with men.

Sooo.. all those business trips and manly things he was engaged in ever so innocently.. while always appearing the doting faithful husbund, albiet, cold, emotionally unavailable, crisis making, constantly unravelling our lives and starting over, always on the brink of doom unless he, in his genius “came through” with the next deal, all that I put aside, not his fault you see, just lifes curve balls, and he was just working way too hard for the sake of the “family”, if only I could do more to help make him happy.

So, he went from his mother to his first wife and then to me, all the while living a lie. I was a good trade because I was way less trouble, and put on a much better show of having the perfect family with the perfect family man.

The closest he has come to a confession is when he took the mask off briefly during the very end, and scornfully, said, “So you mean to say you don;t have any skeletons in your closet? That makes you one of the few. Most people do.”

Of course my friends are mystified how I could reject this great loving husband, who even now insists he loves only me, wistfully telling them how maybe some marriage counselling would do the trick. How could I ditch such a wonderful guy? Must be cause the money ran out. Even now I keep his secret, and let him posture as the victim. But my children know, they see. It hurts so much that thier image of their dad has been shattered, but that is something they are dealing with, at least they can have the whole picture when they work through it all.

Is it true that he wants me back? The florist called today to say they had a Valentines bouquet to deliver. Sure he does. You see he is 65 years old, and for the first time in his life has lost his “cover” his useful prop, his rent-a-wife. For the first time in his life he has only himself for company and that is driving him crazy.

I know he is not done trying to destroy me. He is muscling in on all my friendships and making sure he gets plenty of sympathy. But I know the truth. I have nothing to be ashamed of except the extent to which I abandoned myself, and my truth is all I need. The real friends will make themselves known in time.

I am keeping a journal, a record, of the lies, the fake crisis, the attention getting look -at -me reckless thrill seeking B.S., just in case I ever get another weak moment.

One of the most useful things I have read lately about the path to recovery is to remember that the person you loved is not there. He is a “hollowgram” a construct, a cartoon. Don’t miss that which is not there. There is nobody home. Move on. There are plenty of worthy people out there.

Peace to all



Hey eyeswideshut
I believe you said it best. The person you once loved is not home. When I exchange my kids with my S and look into her eyes its frightening. I dont know who this person is, and her eyes tell me there is nothing inside, like I never knew who she was. It is also clear that I am not able to comprehend what she is capable of and looking at recent history she will be relentless forever. The 1st feeling I get is like I am handing my children to a complete stranger, my chest tightens as I let go of the hands of both children as they get in the car of the S and drive away. The 2nd feeling I get is that the relentless cruelty will continue forever as she appears to show no sign if fear, sorrow, empathy, never being tired, never being worn down or bored or ever letting up on tormenting me and my children forever.


What a blessing to find this site. For months I have struggled trying NOT to tell my friends because I didnt want them to ‘think badly of him….. because he is so kind and generous’… but the problem could I tell them of the prostitutes he bought back to OUR bed at OUR home when I was away ? Or the women he would hand his ‘business card’ to and meet up with them. The web-sites the sick and depraved ‘other-life’ that he got CLUMSY about… because he didnt realise that normal people have sensitivity and KNOW when the one they love is lying and cheating on them.

Its been the most terrible 4 years.. making excuses for him… dying inside with the most dreadful , real physical pain, and yes.. losing everything.. my job, money, self-esteem and pride. I am a broken woman… astonished at how he has destroyed me. And why is it that I cannot hate him? Strange…. I know now that the man I love does not exactly exist…. but I cannot bring myself to hate him. I just cant wait to be far enough away to no longer hurt.
I wish I could warn his several new ‘doters’… but you know, the only way I can cope with that is thinking..technically they stole him from me.. but hey..your turn will come young lady…. and then you will understand why he made ME sound so bad. It was not was him . And I at least will heal and get better… he never will. I hope to grow old in peace and with someone ‘real and warm and trustworthy’… he may not… and who cares? I do! How weird is that… but when I discovered that he could and would never tell the truth and could and would never fail to find and have sex with someone/anyone….I just think he will never experience the love and true happiness that maybe one day I WILL.

I was a happy. stable, confident and capable woman when we got together.. the change in me is frightening, but my friends and this blog are helping me re-build……. and believe it or not.. his X-wife (second).. has been amazing. She could not let go.. for the reason s she didnt fully understand.. until one day we talked , by fluke, on the phone. She was so lovely, and knew him for what he was and told me the TRUTH about WHY she left HIM.. not the way he told me…. Now its my turn, she gives me strength because she truly understands because he did it all to her.

Day by day I feel a step forward and in those blinding unexpected flashes of pain and distress… I make myself think of the TERRIBLE things…not the bits I ‘love’ or miss…

One day I will be healed, and hopefully stronger as a result.

My son has been wonderful.. but children see everything in black and white!! If only it could be as simple as he makes it sound to get over it!
I hope he never goes through anything like this.

Thank you for listening. Friends are magic… but it is only those who have experienced this that TRULY understand. On reading some blogs I thought I must surely have written them myself!! From the smallest of details.. cutting off cold for days, to making me feel like a Goddess when he is going out to meet someone else.. then comes back to his Goddess again.. who is SO beautiful and all and everything he ever wanted. I WISH!!!!

Anyway…. a new day.. another step towards the peace at the end of this emotional roller-coaster.


Brokenup, your writing touched me, it has such clarity, I could almost step into your world and your emotions.

I have been on this site for 6 months and I dont know what I would have done without the support of my ‘invisible friends’ here. I feel I can really express myself here in a way that people understand and are supportive of towards wisdom and healing. Also I can keep expressing myself, the people here dont tire of us regurgitating our pain, they support us here. We are all treading the path of walking into the light. Many of the testimonies here have common threads, but we all seek to support one another.


Broken up:

You are not alone. I have only started posting recently. I was in a relationship with a man I work with for four years. Even when I found about the other woman that he took on his family vacations and the lingerie in his hamper, I still felt something for him. I didn’t want to see him get hurt even though he has hurt me financially, emotionally and personally. I still feel drawn to him when I see him. I guess part of it was that if I at least had him in my life, I wouldn’t be alone. I still need to get it into my head that he was never really part of my life. He had no plans to include me in his future.

I also considered myself stable, but I never knew men like this existed. I am a very trusting and caring person and I never thought that another person would take advantage of me, lie to me and take money that I couldn’t afford to give.

I find this website very therapeutic. I feel like such a fool getting involved with this man and not suspecting for so long that there was something terribly wrong with him.

Ox Drover


This is a good post, and I am glad you brought it back up. I missed it somehow.

My P BF found me when I was still grieving the death of my husband, feeling like I was “old, fat, ugly, no one will ever want me again, ya da ya da.”

I was a SITTING DUCK with both wings broken and he offered me emotional shelter and comfort—I THOUGHT— what he was actually wanting was another “respectable” wife to cheat on! He had NEVER been faithful to any woman. Doing his best to have multiple women on the string at the same time. And, actually accomplishing this with some affairs lasting 8 or more years, and each knowing that she was not the “only”–each wanting to be the “only” but because he was “married” and “couldn’t leave the little wifey” they were willing to go on with the affairs–DUH–I still don’t understand that one.

Of course after the “wifey” caught him with his pants literally around his ankles, and tossed him out–she had suspected for a long time–he needed a NEW “respectable” wife to keep the girl friends in line!

After his divorce, one of his “harem” who was actually a married woman he had been having an intermittent affair with several times a year wanted to leave her husband and marry him. He, when I confronted him about this, took the MORAL HIGH ROAD, he said “Oh, no I could NEVER BREAK UP A FAMILY” I laughed and asked him “You screw a man’s wife behind his back when you and she are BOTH married, and now she wants to leave him and go with you, and you CAN’T BREAK UP A FAMILY? What have you been doing for five years sleeping with another man’s wife, and cheating on YOUR wife?”

He actually seemed to think he was taking the “moral high road” on that one. LOL



Moral High Road… that is just classic.

Bad Man was always trying to make me out to be an immoral harlot but when it came to him.. he had sex with “integrity.” That was his favorite adjective for himself.

He was also the “Minister of Compassion” but I never saw this part of him.

Anyway.. I better get ready for work. :o)


Humingbird1418. I felt a fool for getting involved with my exN, especially as he in no way was like the sort of man that I wanted to meet and my initial reaction to him was that he looked very aggressive. I think many of us have felt angry and foolish. But, when I think of other factors, I can be a little kinder on myself. I hadnt really been out with a Narcissist before so I couldnt make sense of the red flags. I hadnt learnt at that time to honour the red flags without having to make sense of them. Women are flexible and will often accommodate all sorts of behaviours and I bent myself out of shape innumerable times to invest in the relationship on the back of the empty and fake promises he was making. I hadnt had a proper date for 16 years, so I was flattered by his attention.

I came to realise afterwards, that the reason I felt comfortable with my ex, was that my father was a Narcissist and that was a very strong reason for me over riding my initial observations – it solved a riddle for me – I came to understand why my father behaved the way he did.

Ox Drover


“yea, Sex with integrity”–like Eliot Spritzer—he must have too, because he didn’t run out of the BILL, he paid her! LOL

Or maybe Ted Bundy, I doubt that he faked that he loved them before he killed them so that was probably “sex with integrity” too.

Oh, ladies – moral integrity, indeed.

Mine was sleeping with a married woman, before me. I asked him why he didn’t just go back with her (when it was discovered he had lied about not talking to her anymore).

His answer? Well, I could never really *trust* her. HER! Hah! Because you know, she was cheating on her spouse ALL BY HERSELF, of course.

He’s always had situational ethics….a certain flexibility in morals, shall we say…flexible like Nadia Comanechi, that is – moral limbo dancing.


I am embarrassed to say that I got involved with this man while I was still married. This didn’t seem to bother him.

Mine was always preaching about moral integrity – what a hypocrite!

He said that we couldn’t move in together because it wouldn’t look right to his grandchildren since we weren’t married. The real reason should be that he wouldn’t be able to be with the other woman. I don’t know if there were more than one.

He said that it was too early after my divorce for my children to meet his family and if I met his family in Philadelphia they would want to meet my children. The real reason was that this other woman has been at all his family get-togethers and on his family vacations while I have been left here.

Oh, don’t be embarrassed, hummingbird. It was likely an isolated incident, getting together with someone while you were married, not the sport made out of it by S’paths!

They always have plausible reasons for not committing, reasons that make it appear they are good, moral, having integrity. Reasons that always appeal to our internal moral compasses. Reasons that pass the “sniff” test. Reasons that, in retrospect, we see are utterly false and fake! Just like them.

Glad you see he was a hypocrite. Those were YOUR usual morals he was mirroring back at you, those reasons he gave. That’s probably why you believed in them: they made genuine sense to your mind and heart.

Years ago, mine preached of moral integrity, too, after he got divorced. Fast forward and his life is a veritable soap opera cyclone involving married women, OW, me, God knows who all.

They thrive on chaos and destruction. Sad, really.


Lil Orphan,

Flexible morals. Good one. Isn’t that kind of like an oxymoron? (Is that how you spell that?) A moral is a clear line I would think so a flexible moral is what…?

We should have a page of all the wonderful descriptions that have popped up here. There is so much wisdom. Who needs the DSM-IV!


Ox Drover

Hummingbird, I think that “helping” us to violate our own moral codes is part of what the P does…just like the story of Eve and the serpent in the Bible, holding out the LURE to her of KNOWLEDGE and telling her that God was just trying to keep all the “good stuff for himself and that she would BE LIKE GOD if she ate the fruit.” LOL

Of course his “satisfaction” was getting her to go against God’s commands…typical P! LOL

My X-BF P was having sex with several married women at the same time, and was so “moral” that he didn’t want any of them to leave their husbands to marry him, because that would be against his “morals” to BREAK UP A FAMILY! LOL ROTF What a great and considerate man he was. NOT!!!!

I know that the lures and frustration of dealing with all the Ps in my life and the P-by-proxy enablers have “made” me abandon some of my own closely held moral rules as well. The only difference in me and them is that I HAVE RULES TO VIOLATE, they have no rules to violate, so can’t “violate” anything they don’t believe in. Not that they don’t KNOW right from wrong, it is just that they don’t think those concepts apply to THEM…only US.



I think that you have it completely right. I think that it was a triumph of some sort for him when I left my husband. I lived alone after we separated and have lived alone since. In the past year, as I have said earlier, the S and I spent fewer and fewer night together. He also became less and less affectionate. Perhaps the affection at the beginning was just another part of the lure.

He still wanted to be intimate, but there wasn’t much kissing, holding or cuddling at all.

He was a hypocrite preaching about treating others as you would want to be treated and lying about his relationship (s) with another woman at the same time he was in a relationship with me.
I don’t even know for sure if this woman was in or out of the picture when I first got involved with him or if she suspects that he has been unfaithful.

Married women – yep, mine liked those too. The second time we got back together, as I’ve said previously, I was married. I was unhappily married and my husband and I were trying to decide if we should divorce. I got back together with my S, well, that sealed the deal. To this day, I wonder if part of the reason he wanted me back was just to prove that he could have me, not because he really wanted me. The first time we split up, I left him, which must have bruised his massive ego somewhat. When we first were seeing each other again, I gave him a big speech about how I would never leave my husband for him, and don’t get any ideas. That must have been like waving a red flag in front of a bull, presenting a “challenge” like that.

A few months after we’d moved in together, I was thinking about how I’d said I would never move in with him, and smiling (at this point I was still in romantic fantasy land all the time.) He asked me what was funny, and I told him I was just remembering that I’d said I wouldn’t leave my husband for him, but there I was, and that’s what I’d done. He just smiled and said “I knew you didn’t mean it.” Immediately my gut reaction was “What the HELL do you mean you knew I didn’t mean it? What do you mean you don’t listen to what I say about how I feel?” But, I didn’t listen to what my intuition was telling me, so I decided to look at it as “Oh, how sweet, you knew our love would conquer all.” BLECH! I’m still amazed some days at how much denial I was in.

I found out one of his previous serious girlfriends had been married and cheating on her husband with him, and left her husband for him. She had children, and left her kids with her husband most of the time, to move in with my S. Then there was me. God knows how many other married women he’s been with. Apparently while we were dating a married female friend of his propositioned him. He actually said he wished he could sleep with her, because her sex life was boring and he wanted to show her what sex is SUPPOSED to be like. Again, BLECH. They really do think they are God’s gift to women, don’t they?

When I met my S last year I’d been with the same person for 21 years (married 18, never cheated). I fell hard and fast for this guy, and soon was drawn into the fantasy. As I was going through the weirdest four months of my life, I knew there were things that didn’t add up. I couldn’t understand why he’d pull away for days after we’d been so close…why he freaked out about me e-mailing him after he asked me to…why plans changed at the last minute all the time. His explanation, since his morals and Christianity were so important to him (I know, try not to gag!) was that he had trouble with the fact that he was a “homewrecker.” He was divorced with two kids who lived out of state with their mother, and lived with roommates.

He, of course, talked about us moving in together all the time. He knew I was really struggling to make that decision; I told him that I had to make that decision not just based on him, and he shouldn’t feel like it was his fault. He once again gave me the “homewrecker” speech, he really wanted me to admit I was leaving my husband for him. He pushed until I admitted that I wouldn’t have been thinking about divorce if it hadn’t been for him coming into my life. As we walked out hand in hand after this conversation my phone rang. He saw the number, which I had never seen but was in his area code, and freaked out. I didn’t answer it.

As I was sitting in my car trying to figure out what was going on (I know, how stupid could I be!) he came and got in. He told me that he had been involved with one of his roommates before he met me, and she was angry and he wouldn’t be able to stay in the house. Since I had specifically asked him if he was involved with anyone, getting the answer “no, I only go out on group things with the church,” I asked why he had lied. He said that he knew he should have told me, but that he hadn’t “been” with her since he started seeing me. He couldn’t move on his own because he couldn’t afford it (familiar running theme, always needing money, ha!). He was going to have to get a hotel, would I come meet him there (and pay for it, and help him find a place and pay for that too)? I told him to call me and I would see.

As I drove away I listened to my voicemail from his WIFE asking me if I was just friends with her husband, because she saw he called me a lot (four times a day some days, at least once every day). She wanted me to confirm his story before she kicked him out because she HADN’T KNOWN HIM THAT LONG! He was married to someone that hadn’t known him very long and he’d been seeing me for four months????

When I finally talked to him, I asked him if he was married…his answer was “separated, that’s probably why she said feels like she doesn’t really know me.” They were married and he hit on me six months later. When I talked to her (I’m ashamed to admit out of fear of my being caught I said we were just friends) I did express my concerns about red flags and sociopathic behavior (many short term relationships, living off of women, lying, etc.). She admitted he lied all the time, took money, was completely dependent on her financially, and she couldn’t trust him to go outside by himself. But he makes her happy!

I spent the next two months crying, having panic attacks, thanking God I hadn’t destroyed my family, and relying heavily on this website for support. I don’t post often, but I read daily, and it keeps me sane.
Bless all of you who post and are so supportive. In spite of the conscious knowledge of what he is (I know, he is the lie :-)!) I struggle with no contact. I’m working on myself and trying to figure out what made me fall and what I can do to break free of the feelings of addiction I still have for this guy.

Ox Drover

Dear Girl, (you are NO dork)!!!

You got conned sweetie, like the rest of us–he threw out the LURE that looked so shiny and beautiful, and you took the bait–didn’t we all!!?! But–you’re on the way to healing now, that is the important part—you didn’t spend 20 years with this guy! You didn’t marry him! I county my own blessings in this department as well. Yes, I cried, and hurt, but it “could’a been worse”–I know that wouldn’t have been much comfort to me when I would lie awake nights crying over him, but iin retrospect it sure is.

I’m so proud of you and PROUD FOR YOU that you are NC with him now—that’s the first big step and I think the hardest part. But it’s the essential part, and YOU WILL BREAK FREE OF THESE FEELINGS–keep reading, keep posting. The more you put the pieces together, the more clear the picture will be and eventually you will see that it isn’t a picture you like or deserve.

((((BIG hugs))))) to you! It’s obvious that he has some “situational ethics” to go along with his “religion” NOT!


These posts seem so familiar. It’s like I am reading parts of my own story.

I left my husband of 29 years for this man and his lies. I was in a less than perfect relationship and took the lure. Stupid!!
I am still berating myself for being such an idiot.

He also starting needing money and I gave it to him. There was always a reason: his mother lost her prescription money, his niece needed a water pump, etc.

He said we couldn’t move in together because it wouldn’t look good to his grandchildren if we weren’t married. Of course, I didn’t know that he had another woman going to his family functions and vacations.

Healing – when does that start?
This website has been a blessing. This is not easy to discuss with anyone who hasn’t had first-hand experience.

Ox Drover


Letting go of the self castigation is difficult I know, been there and sure done enough of that, but it is important to, to forgive yourself.

If I were your friend and I had done what you did, could you forgive ME for doing that and still love me because I really am a good person in spite of doing something like that? I will bet that you could, and you should be as nice to YOURSELF as you would be to me.

I always allowed other people to have faults and make mistakes but I never allowed me to have any faults or make any mistakes—I was so much harder on myself than on others. Give your self a break my friend, and be kind to yourself. You made a mistake. You fell for a con. You got hornswaggled, you were hood winked, you are human—wow! and you are STILL OK. There are consequences you will have to pay for what you did, we all do, but forgive yourself for being human. ((((BIG Hugs)))))


Thanks Oxdrover. I do need to forgive myself. That would be a big step in healing and learning to trust again.

Ox Drover


There has never been anyone as mean to me as myself, not even the Ps–I beat myself constantly for my own “faults” and wore the “hair shirt” internally (though I tried not to let others see it) of my own guilt for failing to be “perfect.” I never had a boss that gave me a bad report, or was critical (except two Ps that I worked for and they don’t count!) I always got top marks in work evaluations—I did well in school, top grades, and in college nearly all As. But never felt I was doing the “best I could” or “good enough.” No one who knew me would have “known” this SECRET about me, because I kept it deeply hidden from SHAME at my “faults” and my “lack of perfection.”

Now I am realizing I don’t have to be perfect to be acceptable to myself or others. I am trying very hard to give myself the same courtesy I would give others when mistakes are made.

I am the first one to admit my own faults when they injure another, and to sincerely apologize for them, make restitution, if possible, etc. (I’ve always done that) but I am also expecting others to grant me the same courtesy I grant them. In other words, setting and maintaining appropriate boundaries, and abiding by other’s boundaries as well.

I think the AA philosophy of going to people you have wronged and apologizing to them for the hurt you have done to them is a good thing. It allows them to know that you are truly sorry and that you want to do the right thing. That should also take some of the “guilt” off your plate as well. Maybe the relationship is still destroyed by what you did, but maybe some can be salvaged, and maybe some can at least not be accrimonious at least.

There is a great thread on here about what a REAL apology consists of and I think it is very very good. Most of the Ps make “social” apologies which really mean “I”m sorry you caught me, I’ll be slicker next time I lie to you.”

ACKNOLEDGING your wrong actions, showing that you do know that they were wrong, that you are aware of the hurt they cause, that you are sorry for the hurt they caused, and that you do not intend to ever do anything like this again will many time salvage damaged relationships. Sometimes not. But that is all that you can do, you can’t erase the past.

Give yourself some care, and love and consideration and make whatever restitution and full apology, and then whatever happens happens, and accept those things as the reality and the consequences of your actions.

I’ve done a lot of things in my life that I am not proud of, that were against my moral code and I knew that when I did them, and chose to do them knowing they were “wrong” in my OWN eyes and the eyes of those that did love me. I can’t go back and undo those things, I can only strive to apologize, repent, and be a better person in the future. There were “reasons” and “excuses” of why I did them at the time, but I know that they were not valid “reasons” and sure not “excuses” but I can allow myself to be a good person in spite of what I did in the past that I knew was wrong.

My religious faith has become much stronger now that I am out from under my mother’s dictates of what “forgiveness” means—it does NOT mean “let’s pretend that none of this happened”—That’s not healthy or good and no relationship can be repaired on such a concept. No trust reestablished under those conditions.

My son D stood by me the entire time the smear campaign of the Ps was going on, and my son C fell under their spell and fog, and believed what his P-brother and his wife and his “friend” (who was screwing his wife) and my mother all said about me being “crazy”–but when he saw the TRUTH, he was completely and totally repentant of his behavior and his attitude toward me. I had no doubt that his apology was totally sincere. He acknowledged that he was wrong, that the way he acted toward me was wrong, etc. my mother on the other hand, said

“I’m sorry if there’s anything I did or said that was PERCEIVED as hurtful to you, they had me completely hoodwinked, let’s just pretend none of this happened and start over.”

Which was the REAL apology? Which person acknowledged that they had done wrong? Which person wanted to repair the relationship, to be trusted again?

Forgiveness of someone’s behavior is not the same as reestablishing TRUST though. Forgiveness for them and for yourself is to get the bitterness out of your heart for YOU. Forgiving yourself is difficult when you know you have violated your own moral code—no matter what the reason you did it. But it is NECESSARY to your healing, to your going on with life from there.

The book of Samuel in the Bible tells about King David and the horrible sins he committed, even murder, enabling his P son Absolom, adultery, etc. but he ALWAYS repented. He always accepted the responsibility and the consequences of his behavior. Even when his son, conceived in adultery, died he accepted that great pain as the consequence of his behavior.

God said of King David “he is a man after my own heart.” Was it because David didn’t SIN? Absolutely NO, it was because when David DID SIN, did something wrong, he REPENTED. God forgave him, and I think David forgave himself as well, which we all should do. I think those old stories have good lessons to teach us about ourselves and our own behaviors and sins, to handle them in a healthy way.

There are many examples in the Bible of dealing with Ps—and even some descriptions of a P-woman and advice to a son in how to avoid these women (and that can be men too) Good reading when you look at it from the Psychopathic standpoint. Just like Jesus said “the poor shall be with you always” the Ps have been with us always too, and always will be with us–and we need to learn how to handle them, and to forgive ourselves. ((((hugs to you)))))

Used Brauer

In reading this bog, I think OxDrover is probably the smartest person around right now. Explanations that I have needed to hear, searching for are all right here and I must admit that I feel somewhat better after reading this.

Its been two years since I saw my husband. He just walked out of my life, changed his cell phone number and slapped me with a well-planned set of divorce papers two days later. He had everything planned so that I would have no money to fight him with.

I ignored the red flags because I had no idea what a sociopath was. I just thought these were issues we could overcome since our relationship was young. Everything I have now read about the sociopath describes him perfectly. The extreme extraordinary niceness turned into a cold, calculated monster in the clear light of day.

I feel very bitter still. I pray for the ability to forgive him and myself just so that I can experience healing but every day I wake up and have the same conversation in my mind ”“ going over the stupid cheap things that he said and did. I dont know who Im more disgusted with him or myself. And youre right; talking to someone is like explaining the dynamics of physics to someone who speaks another language. I catch myself wondering if all of this was just a bad dream -complete with anxiety attacks.

I try to imagine a headstone with his name on it. Stupid me-making him go to the doctor for his hypertension (he may have died by now if I hadnt). He drives around all day ”“ maybe he will stall his vehicle on a train track at an unfortunate moment! These are the scenarios I envision constantly. I have never imagined myself even thinking things like this about someone.

Im not a bad person and I hate feeling this way. Maybe that’s why we all feel so badly. We let these sociopaths enter into beautiful parts of our life, share meaningful experiences and unknowingly allow them to rob us of a value that they can only obtain by stealing. We just dont get that the person we loved just doesnt exist. The only thing I have left to remember him by is a venereal disease. Im angry and sometimes I think Ill always be angry.

These sociopaths are snakes! Some are disguised as handsome, rich and very polite Romeos who can get away with murder ”“ and usually do! My ex-husbands first wife committed suicide. When he first told me about it, his next sentence was – was going to divorce her anyway. Guess I was lucky. How do you ever get the proverbial knife out of your back? I have been in relationships before and I have never been this wounded. Being with this man has totally changed my path and Im not sure where Ill end up now.

Ox Drover

Dear Brauer,

I hear your pain in your words, and it is devastating to be treated line so much “meat”—discarded like used toilet paper.

Thank you for saying how “smart I am” but believe me if I am so smart, what am I doing here? LOL Being “smart” and “knowing” what is going on doesn’t help us actually. I think because most of us are smart, it makes us easier to con because we think we wouldn’t be tricked by someone like them. DUH! Boy were we wrong!

I think the “feeling stupid” is a normal part to be expected when we finally find out the truth, which at that time in HINDSIGHT seems SO OBVIOUS! Well hind sight is always 20:20 vision. At the time it was happening somehow some or most of us knew there was “something” going on but we weren’t sure just what but we were BLIND in the FOG of their BS. Sometimes, even after seeing “the light” we walked back willingly into the FOG—there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE—that’s me waving my hand saying that is me.

Boy was I an arrogant person, thinking I would never let a man abuse me like some people I knew, the guy who hit me would wake up dead…ya da, ya da, DUH…but I let my son do it.

I let my P-BF talk to me like someone else’s dog that had torn up the trash and scattered it all over the yard. I let my P-by-proxy mother trade me for my P-son’s affections. If anyone is the queen of STUPID it was me—but NOT any more.

It doesn’t matter how stupid I was, or how arrogant and stupid I was, or how gullible, or how I didn’t take care of myself in the PAST–today is a new day. I am a new me. I am P-FREE.

Sure, I to imagined how to put splinters of bamboo under their finger nails, how to hurt them—thoughts of revenge release pleasurable chemicals into our brain—but you know, I don’t want to be that bitter, that filled with wrath and anger for the rest of my life. That kind of thinking is TOXIC to ME and doesn’t hurt them in the least.

One way I worked on it was to pray for them. At fist when I said the words I did not mean them at all. I knew I didn’t and I am sure God knew I didn’t mean them at all either. But eventually I began to feel better. I also thought about the fact that I would rather be ME (a victim) than to be THEM, incapable of love and caring and genuine emotion.

Sometimes it seems that they “win” in the battle between us and them, but in the end, I think that WE win because we get them out of our lives, and the fact that we can and do hurt is proof that we are NOT like them. Thank you Jesus!

When last year my P-biological father died, a wealthy and very famous man (he had thought that achieving these goals would make him happy) he was a bitter and disrespected person by everyone who really knew him. Even 3 out of 4 of his children had NO contact with him, and the 4th that was with him and thought he was “wonderful” (my half brother) is I think a P just like him. Except for that one son, there was no one who respected him personally, and many people who DISPISED him profoundly.

He bought all the “trappings” that he thought would make him happy, young women, big toys, the “pseudo respect” that money can buy, but he didn’t value that, because he wasn’t stupid, he knew what it was. His respectable family didn’t want anything to do with him, and that was quite a great disappointment to him that all his cousins and sibs didn’t want anything to do with him. Didn’t like or respect him, no matter how much money he had.

I had always thought that when he died I would get a lawyer and sue his estate—but after he died, I realized that even if he had left me 10s of millions of dollars (fat chance), I DIDN’T WANT HIS MONEY, it was dirty, it was blood money (literally) His life was empty rattlings.

My step father, by contrast, was surround by 30 or so of his friends and loved ones, every one of which respected him as a good man, as he took his last breath. He had hundreds of people come to his service to morn for him and to celebrate what a wonderful and kind man he was.

In the movie “Take all of me” where Lily Tomlin’s character is at her own funeral and there is no one there, it reminds me of my biological father. An empty and self centered life of anger, bitterness, control, revenge…who would want that? Of course Tomlin’s character wasn’t a P, just a self centered neurotic.

It is a fight within myself not to allow myself to feel the wrath (vengeful anger) toward them. But I know that allowing myself to foster those natural feelings is not good for ME. I can’t “suppress” them or “pretend that they aren’t there” that isn’t healthy either, I have to DEAL with them. At times it is a day to day struggle, and other times it is easier. But in any case, I work at it. Hard work.

I don’t want to let the past rob me of the future. Get a copy of and read “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Dr. Viktor Frankl, who was a survivor of the WWII concentration camps. His views have had profound effects on my own thinking and handling this. I have read and read and discussed this with various people who I can respect their views. Ministers, teachers, psychiatrists, therapists, friends, my sons. I have to find SOME meaning in this suffering besides pain. Frankl did, and if he can, by golly I can. His suffering was so much greater than mine. He lost everything but his mind and his body. Every one he loved, every thing he loved, and he still found meaning in what he suffered. That’s pretty profound.

I have been blessed by knowing some pretty outstanding people in their fields, some quite famous, some not famous at all, but the main thing is that I have been able to draw from their wisdom. I feel very humbled that these wise people will share their wisdom with me, and that they care for me.

While I have made some colossal blunders in judgment in my life, probably more than most people, I have to forgive myself as well as forgive the Ps. They were just doing what Ps do. Just like a rattle snake bites if you get near him, the Ps bite if we let them into our hearts or lives. Being angry at the snake for the rest of your life, or being mad at yourself for going hiking is not productive. Letting that anger go, and working hard enough at it to succeed in letting that anger go is the only way to find some meaning out of this while thing and go on with your life, I think at least.

Yea, I got a “raw deal” but so did Viktor Frankl and if he can find it in himself to forgive these people who hurt him and his whole family, his whole community–then maybe I can too.

God bless and ((((hugs)))

Used Brauer:

“My ex-husbands first wife committed suicide. When he first told me about it, his next sentence was – was going to divorce her anyway. “

There’s a phenomenon about S/P’s and partners who commit suicide – the name escapes me at the moment. But of course, living with someone who is that disordered, who gaslights and abuses, could easily push someone over the brink. Not saying that’s the case with your ex and his first wife. Just saying that it’s not uncommon.


The blogs about women involved with P/S/N’s committing suicide gave me the chills. The first serious relationship my ex (N) husband had lasted for about a year and a half. And yes, she committed suicide in his garage…car running…little dog and Bible on her lap.

The police questioned him until the wee hours of the morning. He ranted and raved about how much he loved her. But he didn’t miss work the next day, and he didn’t miss his golf game the next day, either. Must have loved her a lot, ha. These people are unbelieveably callous.

Oxdrover, you should open your own counseling center. You’re doing wondrous works here.

Ox Drover

Dear Peggy,

Thank you for those kind words, you don’t know how good it makes me feel to in any way help someone else who has been through this insanity.

Your x-N’s behavior sounds like Scot Peterson! DIDN’T MISS WORK THE NEXT DAY? Jimminy Christmas! SHEEESH! I wonder if he told her he wanted her to commit suicide? I have no doubt that he goaded her into it. I see that as murder by “suicide.” Even if the poor woman did kill herself, I still think the blood is on his hands.

My P-son’s plan was to have his Trojan-Horse P off me with my own gun and try to make it look like suicide—since I was so obviously depressed and crazy—I have no doubt that after my “suicide” that my mother would have fallen down and hit her head, the poor old woman, first her daughter dead and then her…poor woman. Such tragedy. PUKE.

When I escaped their reach, they focused on getting money from mother into their control, with the TH-P screwing my DIL—when that got found out, the way to fix it of course was kill my son C and make it look like “self defense” since he was “so upset after finding out the affair.” (he had offered to work it out with her) THEY NEVER QUIT PLOTTING, SCHEMING AND COMING UP WITH NEW PLANS if the first one fails. Versatile they are.

The numbers of stories of husbands and wives that have murdered their spouses and gotten away with it, some of them several times, like Drew Peterson, are more chilling to me than the suicides, but in whatever form they kill us physically, it makes your stomach churn.

What is completely chilling to me is the Ps-by-proxy, in the parents of Scot Peterson, and others who totally support their P offspring, never never believing even in the face of irrefutable evidence that their “little darling” was capable of such horror. Even though my own P-by-proxy mom admits that my P-son indeed did murder a girl, and that he was involved with the attempted murder of myself, still tries to “help” and comfort her poor pitiful grandson in prison by sending him money in the name of Christian compassion. Funny though, she has NO Christian compassion for the Trojan Horse P or my X-DIL. LOL I guess in her religion compassion and charity is selective.



You have had the most interesting life of anyone I “know”! It’s amazing you have come out of all this “normal”. LOL. Amazing stuff. And it’s wonderful and very kind that you, out of all the craziness, reach out your hand to help the next victim out of the fog. I am so pleased to see you are very strong, and have come out of adversity wiser, and with so much compassion.

My S’s ex-wife had an ‘accident’ 15 years ago…she was hauling heavy equipment for him, when she pushed the brakes the equipment hit her in the back of the head, knocking her out, bleeding from her ears, and she has had some permanent memory loss from this (and has had extreme difficulty reading). Since the S is VERY smart, and a construction company owner, he should have known the hazard in this. I’m not sure this was an accident. Also about 5 years ago she was taking some heavy psychotic medication or painkillers, I’m not sure which. She started vomiting blood and having blood when she went to the bathroom. Her friend took her to the hospital and she was grossly overmedicated (guess who was giving her the meds? The S, of course). These revelations by her frightened me.

Then the S’s former best friend told me that S and twin brother, along with another guy went scuba diving together years ago…and the third guy never came back up. The best friend said the S LAUGHED every time he told this story. So I’m not sure this “accident” was an accident at all. My S was very into life insurance…told me within the first couple of months he’d put me on his policy…I think he wanted me to reciprocate, but I’m not big on life insurance, and told him anything I have would go to my kids. He really wants money, money, money, and I wouldn’t be surprised if his present girlfriend meets an untimely demise…of course, after the documents are signed for the million-dollar-plus house (contingent on the sale of her property). Oh, maybe he’ll keep her around a couple of years for entertainment value. But I wouldn’t put anything past him. It’s “all about the money”, his favorite saying. The sick b _ _ _ _ _ _.

Used Brauer

Further elaboration on the ex’s first wife’s suicide from what I was told by him”
Other than telling me that “he would have divorced her anyway”, he told me that he wasn’t cheating on her but he could have been ”“with a woman he worked with. When I asked about the type of relationship he had with a coworker that assured him of a tryst with her, he refused to answer. Guess who he started dating after his wife died?

I could never understand him. He told me many crazy facts like: he worked for the family-owned business and his brother gave him a $20,000 pay raise when his wife committed suicide in order for him to maintain his standard of living. The family business paid all of the funeral expenses.

He kept living in the house for around 6 months after her suicide (she died in the bathroom) and the women he brought home would refuse to spend the night after he told them about her. And is it me or does anyone else think it’s strange that someone would use two methods to commit suicide? He told me that she took a lethal overdose and then shot herself in the head (with his loaded gun). How often does something like that happen?

She died on Halloween after he said he downloaded emails from the computer that she had been exchanging with an old high school friend in Chicago, took them to her work and in front of her coworkers threw them at her and told her to get her sh##t and get out of his house. She left at lunch and never returned. He says his favorite holiday is Halloween. He has had many Halloween parties since. Just the association alone should make it morbid to say the least!

Maybe it’s because I’ve never been this close to a situation like this but I find all of this a LOT strange. Aside from the usual traits that go along with a sociopath, this man’s family has made sure that he never had to sacrifice anything. Is all of this a recipe for something even bigger in the future?

Ox Drover

My P-biofather used to say “Murder is the easiest crime to get away with unless you are found standing over the body with a smoking gun screaming ‘I did it’ ” I personally know of two individuals he killed, and he claims to have killed more, but he lied so much I was never sure about that. He did get away with both of the murders I knew he did, as there was never any body found and they were done outside of the US.

My P-son, though, and this is one of the unbelievable parts too me anyway, told his victim’s friends he intended to kill her and why (ratting her out) left a party with her (after making the threats) came back to the party with h er purse, her jewelry and said “I killed her.” Well, the next day they arrested him when she had gone “missing.” DUH.

They had no body, but put a jail house stooge in the cell with him, then released the stooge (a cop) and later my P-son called this guy and asked him to move the body, telling the location of it. At that point the cops had a body. Then my P-son called his cousin and asked him to move the gun–DUH, on a monitored jail phone, well, before he hung up the cops had the gun. DUH. He had put it under his bed!

Now this is a kid who scored in the 99th percentile for IQ. But this is just about as bad as the bank robber who wrote the note on the back of his deposit slip with his name and address on it. HOW INCREDIBLY STUPID. Yet,, my son still gloats that his crime was “more horrible than the cops even knew.” SO?!!! Does that make him some sort of criminal genius? Sounds like a retarded thug to me. Yet HE fancies himself some sort of successful con man. Looks down on everyone else in the world, especially the cops, as STUPID. Well, I think I KNOW WHO IS STUPID, regardless of what his IQ score says.

Your comment about my “interesting life” is one that my P-bio father used frequently. It is an old “Chinese Curse” that you “live an INTERESTING LIFE”—of course if your life is boring there is nothing horrible going on, and if it is “interesting” it is because there is trauma, tragedy, war, and chaos etc. The people in the Nazi concentration camps lived “interesting” lives—a good and wonderful and peaceful life is “boring” by contrast. LOL Yes, I have led an INTERESTING LIFE, and now it is time for BORING. LOL

Actually, I’m NOT “bored” by having PEACE in my life. I am now able to concentrate on the wonderful things that chaos and terror prelude you from noticing. The first flower of spring, the SMELL of spring just before the flowers bloom and the trees start budding. I noticed that this year, a SMELL, and I had noticed it in the past and it just said “spring is close” I never really connected to it until this spring when there IS peace here.

I have the luxury now to enjoy the many blessings that I have by living out in the country away from the noise and pollution, to sit and watch my few cows lick their babies as the babies suck their supper just before sundown, to see the care that the cows have for their babies. To see that the older sibs from last year are gentle with their new brothers or sisters when they play with them.To see the family groups of the cattle lie down with each other, to notice the similarity in facial features between the cows and their offspring, although they are the same breed, they all have just as much an individual face as you and I and the babies resemble their mothers.

When you live in chaos and terror, pain and grief, you become so egocentric, so turned inward that you can’t enjoy the simple pleasures of life and the world. You only eat because to not do so would hurt you, and I can’t even remember the number of times I realized I hadn’t eaten in 48 or more hours without even realizing I hadn’t.

How could I have run fevers daily last summer for two months and not realized I was ill? How could I have become so weak I couldn’t walk up a single flight of stairs and not realized something was wrong with me? Because I was so stressed that my touch with reality, my own body was totally overwhelmed by the fear, the grief, the confusion, the chaos of the situation with the Ps.

It was only after I finally realized that my enabling mother was a P-by-proxy for my son that I finally started getting some sanity back into my life, to start to take care of me instead of trying to convince her that my P-son was dangerous, that he was EVIL. Only by stopping trying to convince her, and by stopping trying to reason with her have I been able to gain any ground toward healing.

The “recruits” into their crazy-making, the toxic enablers, are JUST AS TOXIC AS THE Ps themselves. They aren’t “true” Ps in a sense but they FUNCTION as extensions of the Ps. They do the bidding of the Ps almost like robots, and they are convinced without a doubt that YOU are the EVIL one and you are out to hurt their beloved P—and at all costs they must protect the P, even if it means hurting you. The righteousness of their crusade to protect the P keeps them in the FOG.

I have no doubt that my “saintly” mother (to everyone else that knows her) is totally convinced even denying all evidence, that I am the EVIL one and that she must protect my P son from my “unjust punishment” and “revenge” (my trying to keep him in prison) which will keep her from achieving her fondest dream of him coming home before she dies and the two of them living happily ever after.

It is almost like I am the “wife” and she is the OW, protecting him from the property settlement I am trying to get in divorce court. Convinced I am an evil witch. (I just thought about that right now and it really does FIT) If I hadn’t been such an evil “wife” he would still be with me, not her. She is the only one that ever really understood him, cause he said so. GOSH, that FITs so well—-it really doesn’t make any difference with the Ps, the PLOT of their “plays” is ALL THE SAME—just different people playing the “roles” that they write for us. (sigh)

Maybe there is a P-school where they learn to write the scripts for the plays with interchangeable roles. LOL There doesn’t seem to be a lot of variation in the plots.

Your note about the life insurance and him putting you on his policy and wanting you to put him on yours is an interesting ploy. I just watched Empire, on DVD last night, and Anthony gave Octavius a note saying that if anything happened to Antony that his legions would go to Octavos, and of course Octavius did the same, and then of course Anthony tried to kill him, and in the movie (not history) thought he had done so and used that document to seize power.

Sounds like you may have “dodged a bullet” there yourself by not putting him on an insurance policy. One of the almost FATAL mistakes I made was telling my P-son anything about the trust documents. I knew he didn’t “approve” of them, but they apparently concerned him quite a bit, especially when I later told him (again, my mistake in giving him information) that I had cut him out of my will.

When my husband and I had married, we had a good pre-nup because we both had children and we wanted to make sure that our wishes were respected in whatever events came. I was very fortunate in that my step-kids are and were wonderful to me about the estate, but so many times that isn’t the case and at a death the relatives descend like vultures. Our advance estate planning, the pre nup etc. was very wise. I would advise anyone who contemplates marriage or living together have something in WRITING that takes into account death, divorce etc. As well as a will and/or a trust. Even if you think you don’t “have very much”–you’d be surprised what people will do for ANYTHING.

Sounds like your S was definitely DANGEROUS. Many of them are, and not only the ones in prison. Not all of them are as STUPID and arrogant as mine was….but sometimes like with Scot Peterson, the law does catch them. I am hoping that Drew Peterson (several wives dead or missing) gets his too. I have a feeling sooner or later the law will get him.

Ox Drover

Used Brauer–sounds like you and Peggy are talking about the same man!

Yes, it is scary when you start to put the pieces of the puzzle together. The toxic enablers in the family helping out the poor P—

HALLOWEEN PARTIES! Sounds like Scot Peterson or OJ type behavior. Not even a “good fake” of emotions, and yet he gets away with it.

Sounds like he may have forced her to swallow the pills but used a gun just to be sure. Women, by the way SELDOM shoot themselves in the head as a way of suicide. The pills overdose might be a logical way for a woman to commit suicide as they perceive it as painless and not disfiguring, but the pills AND the gun? Sounds suspicious to me.

His confronting her at work with the e mails, and grossly humiliating her MIGHT provoke a woman already stressed out to commit suicide with the pills, but not the way it happened I would think. I’m paranoid, I know, but sounds too fishy to me. Just doesn’t compute.

Used Brauer

OxDrover- Peggy and I could very well BE talking about the same man! Nothing surprises me anymore.

It’s good to hear that someone else thinks the story is fishy too. I have thought about going to the police and asking them to re-investigate but his semi-wealthy family is well known in that city and I’m sure they’d all dismiss me as just a vindictive ex-wife. The suicide happened on Halloween, 1997.

This is a big dose of reality. When I read these stories, I can easily see how the sociopath can commit murder or commit “murder by suicide”. My ex immediately tried to cut off all of my resources by blind-sighting me. It’s the shock factor. They try to assume all the power by cutting off money and resources, essentially cutting off your ability to survive as quickly as possible ”“ just like a killer.

Ox Drover


That is what is so hard to grasp for so many people is that these people ARE capable of cold blooded murder in order to get revenge or to get what they want, or to get an “inconvenient” pregnant wife out of the picture–Scot Peterson–why not just get a divorce? I mean, that makes sense to me and you? But they want to “appear” good so instead of appearing “bad” and divorcing their pregnant wife, they KILL HER. I sit here shaking my head, realizing that what I am saying is true, yet I have so much difficult really comprehending how they think. How they “reason” and what “reasons” make sense to them that are not apparent to us.

Because most ordinary people have never really “known” a psychopath up close and personal (or if they did, they didn’t really realize WHAT IT WAS) it is so difficult for ordinary people to think that “that could ever happen in OURfamily”

I am a big reader and trade books back and forth with some of my friends, and a couple of them and I started reading these “true crime” stories of people murdering their family members, etc. I realize some of these books are “sensationalized” for shock value, but jimminie Christmas, the lengths to which people will GO for money, pride, revenge,or just to get rid of an inconvenient spouse is unbelievable, and these are “ordinary” folks. Look at the guy in Kansas who was an “ordinary” guy yet he killed raped and tortured for DECADES before he was caught.

I knew a horrible child molester years ago when I lived in a small town of 3,000 east of Little Rock. His name is Charles “Jackie” Walls III (you can look him up on google or see his photo on the Arkansas prison inmates site) and he had molested 1500+ boys during his years as a Scout Leader in the Boy Scouts of America. His father is a very close friend of our family’s. I knew Jackie was a jackass and I didn’t like him, but never NEVER realized how EVIL he was.

In an effort to get some good statistics etc for writing the letter to the Arkansas parole board about my Trojan Horse P’s upcoming parole hearing, I bought two great books on child molesters and violent criminals and “assessing” them for risk of further violence…sheesh, I haven’t even been able to totally read these books as they turn my stomach.

The one “Predators” says that only 3% of child molestations are ever prosecuted. Many molesters (mostly men) have thousands of victims EACH–yes EACH–and are still walking the streets or have not been apprehended for YEARS after they started, and many specialize in toddlers because they are not believed even if they do tell.

Many are so brazen that they will molest a child in an office at school, or in the house with the parents present, or their own children while their wife sleeps.

I would assess each of these molesters as a psychopath, they do not have any remorse over it to go on like this—and the reoffense rate is horribly high even with treatment–so I cannot believe the NUMBER of EVIL people in this world.

When I was working in the public clinics I made several reports to DHS (which we were required to do) of rapes of young children—and I was always suspicious if a young girl came to the clinic with a bladder infection. Some cases I reported were substantiated as rape or abuse, and others that I am SURE were, were not substantiated.

I had one little girl who was 10 or so, and she refused to move her bowels. Eventually she would “have” to and they would move in her pants or on the floor…I have no doubt that this child had been raped (I knew her parents and they were squirrely) but nothing was ever done for this child. She got no therapy, no true investigation, etc.

The book on Predators also goes into the author’s frustration in KNOWING a child was molested and still not being able to protect that child.

I can well understand that feeling in the author and in her professional work. Many years ago when I started working with patients that were head and spinal cord injured and who we would have in the rehabilitation facility from a day or so after their injury for maybe a year until they left. It was impossible not to get attached to these patients and their family over this length of time. Sometimes when they left I would have to go into the bathroom and cry, but I told myself if I ever got to the point that I CRIED ALL THE TIME, or if I got to the point that I NEVER CRIED, I would get out of that line of work.

My best friend now, that I have been as close to as a sister, is the parent of one of my patients from those years long ago. I have to laugh, her son still calls me the “nurse from hell” but still calls me if he has a problem (we live in different states) because a rehab nurse often has to use “tough love” on patients to force them to become independent as much as they can. He was a very rebellious 15 year old at the time of his injury though his injury was not caused by motorcycles or drinking and driving which is common in that age group, and I had to set some firm boundaries for him, including “take your medication NOW or I will put a tube down your nose and pour it in” (he did, but after that we became quite good friends when he realized he could not get anywhere with his teen aged games with me LOL) At his high school graduation 15,000 people stood up and cheered and there was not a dry eye in the crowd when he rolled his electric wheel chair to get his diploma. He lives a very successful life today even though he is paralyzed from the neck down. He is married, finished college and lives independently with his wife and a part time caregiver.

The thing that is so frustrating about all this is with all my “education” about psychological things, I did not put any of it to work for me in my personal life–I knew the right thing, yet I acted just as any non-professional would have, I let myself behave in dysfunctional ways, enabled my son, let my mother enable him, etc. got sucked in by a BF that was a P after my husband died–in short, all my “knowledge” and “education” didn’t do me a damn bit of good until recently.

So, all I can say is if I know so much and I’m so smart, what the hell am I doing HERE?

Well, the answer is although I hate to admit it, but I am HUMAN. I have emotions. I don’t always listen to my good sense, put my education and smarts to work, tried to please others too much, didn’t trust myself, didn’t set proper boundaries, and in short didn’t behave in a healthy manner in spite of “knowing better.” I think in my own arrogance that I could “fix anything” I held on to the malignant hope for my son, the malignant hope that my BF was my next “soul mate” after I lost my husband—and the malignant hope and blindness to my mother’s toxic enabling.

But I’m no blind any more, I no longer REFUSE TO SEE what is right before my eyes. It may not be a PRETTY truth, but none the less, it is TRUTH and I have to face it, pick myself up, dust the dirt off and move forward or I can lay there and cry for the rest of my life. There’s not but ONE acceptable choice out of the two available as far as I am concerned.

If along the way I can help some other poor soul who has lived through the same chaos and pain, more’s the better and at least I can find some MEANING in what I have finally FINALLY learned if it will help someone else as well.

This summer I plan to volunteer at the women’s shelter near here, but in the meantime if I can post here and help anyone, that is a way for me to give back what I have been blessed with, PEACE.

Ox Drover

DEar dear Free,


I am so sorry that you had such terrible pain, and that he hurt you so. I am SO glad though that you didn’t let him kill your soul! That right there tells me that you have strength that even you don’t know about yet! They may can push us down, but we DO have the strength to over come this pain, this horror that you lived through, that we all have.

I am so glad also that you are getting therapy, and that it is helping you recover from this living nightmare. You deserve so much better than that horrible existence (it isn’t even life) and he deserves a “hot spot in hell” for making someone else suffer so–and my faith tells me that he will eventually get that.

Your perception that you were truly unloved (by him) is TRUE, and that is painful to accept I know, but his “ownership” of you is over, you are your OWN person now, and you can grow and blossom and have a good and a happy and a loving life, you can LOVE YOURSELF, and that is more than he can do. He not only doesn’t love you, he can’t even love himself. He seeks “empty” things, he is “hungry” for what he knows must be out there, but he can’t even see it when he has it. Can’t appreciate or see the value in love, kindness, etc.

So even though I believe he will get his “hot spot in hell” I also think that he is in some ways LIVING IN HELL NOW. How empty they must be….they crave other’s attention, but yet, it is meaningless to them when they get it.

I am so glad that you are recovering, and I will say a prayer for you today that you continue to recover and blossom into what you were meant to be, that your strength continues to grow and that you find peace and happiness, the things you DESERVE. God bless.

Ox Drover


Reading your post made my eyes well up with tears, but HAPPY TEARS! I am so glad for you! I am glad that you are not only healing mentally and physically and emotionally but spiritually as well. I don’t think without the spiritual aspect that I could heal at all–not completely.

Growing up my mother had equated “religion” with pleasing her, that she was the direct pipeline to God and if I did anything that displeased her, it also displeased God and I would burn in hell forever. I have talked to so many people who have also been religiously “abused” by either their parents or their P—and I definitely was. Now, I have a completely different view of my relationship to God, and His to me. I firmly believe that there is a God, and that He cares for us and wants us to be healthy and happy. Sure good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, but I think there is a lesson in anything that happens to us, good or bad.

The Bible contains so many stories about Psychopaths, and enablers–read the story of King David in Samuel 1 &11–David’s son Absalom was a psychopath, and David was enabling him. When Absalom revolted and led the country to war against David, David’s biggest concern was that his generals “deal gently with the young man”–HUH? When Absalom died, he tore his clothes and screamed his grief. One of his generals said to David, “I perceive if the young man had lived and we all (the people) had died, you would have been well pleased.”

David, always willing to listen to rebuke and change his ways realized that what the general said was true. He got up, washed his face, put o clean clothes and went to thank the people for their sacrifices for his reign.

I guess one of the most painful things about my own case was that my enabling mother felt the same way about my son as David did about Absalom. It would have pleased her if my son P had gotten out of prison before she died, even if it meant he had to kill me to do it. That was something that really struck deep inside me, because I didn’t realize how toxic an enabler can be, they can become P-s-by-proxy, lost in the fog of the P, doing just what the P wants, no matter how bad it is. The difference in my mother and King David is that she refuses to let go of her delusions about my son. Refuses to face the truth, even though she knows he is a murderer without remorse.

I thank God every day for my deliverance and the safety of my son C, and for all the belessings and protection we have had from His hand. Mostly I thankk him that my own vision has cleared up, and I am no longer in the FOG of EVIL. God bless!

Free, that was so beautiful it left tears in my eyes. God speaks to all of us. People might think I’m crazy to say that, but when I’ve been really low about this whole P experience, feeling hurt and wondering what the point of anything is, I asked God what he wanted from me, what was the lesson of all this, aside from showing me that wanting things is a foolish human pastime — and I heard, clear as day, “I want you to heal

As a fellow abuse survivor, it doesn’t seem a coincidence that we both walked away from these bad circumstances feeling that God wants us to heal. He does.

Even the abuse itself…I think makes some of us better people. We can empathize more. We’ve got insider information on trauma, pain and forgiveness.

Thank you for such a beautiful and truthful post.


This is an interesting post. When I first met my sociopath I recently broke up with my boyfriend of three years and was struggling getting by day to day afterwards. He was a friend of my brother so he was at my home often and as soon as he found out I no longer had a boyfriend and I was feeling bad he started making his moves. He is not as charming as most sociopaths I have read about because outside his appearance is very “mysterious” but it lured me in and once we started talking it was great. He said everything I wanted to hear and even gave me a small ring after only three weeks. Immediately he told me about how he suffered depression and knew what it felt like to be alone and he “appeared” to connect with me on a deep level. Telling me about his neglecting parents and horrible childhood and his many suicide attempts. Now I look back and I think to myself… why was I even attracted to someone like this? Because I was vunerable. Because he knew exactly what to say to me. He played on my kindness and good heart and wanted me to pity him. A couple months after being together I was in an accident and now in an insurance lawsuit where money is involved. Three years later up to this day he asks me all the time what I am going to do with that money and tells me I should buy a house and he will come live with me. Oh, did I mention he is a parasite? For a year he didn’t have a job and let me pay for everything and once he got a very low paying job he had the nerve to complain to me about money saying I take all his money?! How is that possible when I pay 98% of everything. And now he was looking at my insurance settlement with hungry eyes. I almost feel like he stayed for that reason… he was going to live off of me. He hates working and doesn’t feel he should have to and hates the government and our way of life. He seems to think he is entitled to everything and becomes resentful. Now that I look back a lot of our conversations were about money, my money, and where we would go and what we can do and me buying homes and cars…. wow… do I feel stupid. I’ve made no contact now for over a week after months of being tortured after a break up of an almost 4 year relationship. The lawsuit didn’t settle yet but I almost wonder had I been awarded money… would he have left me with nothing? When he did leave my bank account went from a couple thousand to about $200… I was left alone and with no money or any friends after he had driven everything and everybody away from me. Thanks for posting this it brouhgt just more of a reminder to stay away from him.


Free you just did! that little paragraph Speaks Volums! LOVE jere


Trinity, did you have a joint bank account with him? It’s amazing how smooth con artists are. If you ever get a chance to read Martha Stuart’s book “The Sociopath Next Door”, there is a story in there of a sociopath who married his wife for her swimming pool. He ignored her and ignored his own son, but spent his days lounging by the pool. Even after the divorce, he still would come over to sit by their pool. She couldn’t get rid of him! Pretty creepy. There should be a movie made about this. I’m on a little bit of a tangent but your post about a sociopath coveting your home reminded me of this.

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