A woman goes to the philharmonic in New York City alone. She meets a guy who is also alone. He asks her for a date, she goes once, doesn’t want to go again. She doesn’t return his calls. He sends an e-mail demanding to know why. Woman is so astounded she posts it on the Internet.
Read An investment banker’s cover letter for a second date, on Reddit.com.
Story suggested by a Lovefraud reader.
Sky, you may feel obligated to respond to someone….but I don’t. Your post about “being nice” because you are afraid to give someone N-injury and provoke them to violence….but my idea of “being nice” and your idea of “being nice” I think are two different things.
I think the girl was being “Nice” when she didn’t respond to him and say “keep away you freaking creep”! Just not responding after multiple e mails and texts or voice mails is MORE THAN ENOUGH “RESPONSE” in my book to get it across to someone that you do not want to talk to them, that you did NOT have a good time, etc.
This man thinking that she OWED HIM AN APOLOGY????? For what? Not wanting to go out with him again? For “leading him on?”
This is the kind of guy, I think, that would blame the victim for wearing a short skirt when he raped her. He is TOTALLY Narcissistic….and even if she had replied to him, he would have wanted an “apology” and a fuller explination of what he did wrong, and on and on, he never would have been satisfried until he could controll her.
If they don’t understand NC they are essentially STALKING.
I think I see your points.
In my case, before learning about spaths, I was quite capable of turning down SOME people and letting them down easy.
BUT, because I didn’t KNOW about spaths, I was vulnerable in that a spath can use my niceness against me. And that is EXACTLY what happened and how I ended up with the uber spath from hell. Well, that’s not EXACTLY what happened, but there were elements of it. My “niceness” is seen as a weakness.
So normal people use boundaries to protect themselves and go NC when their guts tell them something is off. I’m not normal – obviously.
Now, however, I do think I can be nice and gain the upper hand on a spath that way. Simply because I can outmaneuver them. And I just prefer to be nice, it’s easier for me. Boundaries are hard work, they “feel” wrong to me.
I admit it, I’m a doormat.
Sky, boundaries were, hell ARE, difficult for me as well….because I was raised that having boundaries isn’t being “nice”—but I have since come to realize that BOUNDARIES ARE OKAY, I have a RIGHT to have boundaries, and I am NOT OBLIGED to let others walk all over me in order for me to “be nice.”
I was supposed to associate with Uncle Monster when he made me want to PUKE because if I didn’t, then it would “ruin” egg donor’s Christmas and she would cry and I would feel bad becuse I “ruined” HER Christmas. One time when she was in the middle of a BIG CRYING BAWLING Pity ploy about how I was ruining her Christmas because I wouldn’t have it with Uncle Monster, I had a “break through boundary” and I asked her WELL, WHAT ABOUT YOU RUINING **MY** CHRISTMAS?
She stopped SUDDENLY in the middle of this really GREAT bawling crying ploy and looked at me sooooo ANGRY! LOL ROTFLMAO
Nah, boundaries were not OK because if I had boundaries then I wouldn’t be in her control now would I?
Examining some of our “deeply held ideas” about what is OK and NOT OK is what we have to do in order to see if those things are things that we want to CONTINUE to believe.
Deep down there is good in every one. BOULDERDASH!
It takes two to fight! CRAP!!!
There are two (valid) sides to every story! BS!!!!!
Being Nice protects you! NOT TRUE!!!!
If you don’t make someone angry they won’t hurt you! POPPYCOCK!
If you make someone angry, it is your fault. ABSOLUTE MYTH!
You are responsible if I am not happy! LIE!!!!!
I am sure you can go on and on with the list of UN-truths that we have been trained to accept as truth and then to base our behavior and our boundaries (or lack of them) on.
As long as you hold UN-true ideas, you will act in accordance with them, and have cog-dis trying to reconcile them with reality.
Examining our basic set of “truths” on is a difficult and time consuming job, but it is worthwhile because we can then learn to set boundaries about what we are obligated to do and what we are NOT obligated to do.
Sometimes until something like this article or another one brings up a concept we don’t really stop to realize WHAT is making us continue to act in a way that is self defeating. That’s why I am still here at LF because I learn something new EVERY DAY!
Slim,
your explanation clarified it for me, thanks. It makes sense now. I couldn’t understand why I should be rude to someone who has not hurt me YET. But your explanation, – and Milo’s too – is that if my GUT tells me set a boundary, then I should listen. That’s the part I didn’t get.
Oxy, thank you I do get it cognitively, but still working on honoring my feelings. I’m not so good at that. I was trained to honor OTHER people’s feelings and that mine are not that important. Actually not important at all. I was set up to believe that I was the least important. This belief is SO deeply ingrained in me that I can say it without even feeling bad about it. After all, I’m not important and my feelings don’t count.
I don’t want anyone to feel badly for me about this, it just is. It’s so much a part of me that it doesn’t even bother me. Cognitively, I understand that it’s crippling me and that I need to change, but I just don’t feel it.
Sky,
Sometimes we have to take the ACTION FIRST and the feelings follow…so if you cognitively can get it, and then use the THINKING/LOGICAL part of your brain to act instead of letting the emotions drive the actions, the emotional “ah ha!” will follow.
Looking BACK at the setting the boundaries with my X-friend that I CAUGHT red handed stealing something from me that she could have had free as a gift if she had ASKED, but she was greedy, and she preferred to STEAL it. When I caught her I WAS DEVASTATED THAT I might hurt HER FEELINGS! ROTFLMAO **HER** feelings. How twisted is that. Plus she had stolen from me in the past and I had known it, even though I couldn’t have proven it in a court of “law”–I KNEW IT! No doubt!
I cried for 2-3 days over that one, and finally decided to LOCK things up. Which of course when she tried to steal again she would find the door LOCKED and know that I had figured out (seeing her for goodness sakes!) that she was a thief and I would no longer give her unlocked access to that stuff.
It NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT She should be concerned with HURTING MY FEELINGS BY STEALING. LOL
Okay, if this had been someone I didn’t consider a “friend” I wouldn’t have had a problem in the world with verbally attacking them on the spot when I caught them, but when I caught her, I WAS EMBARRASSED FOR HER, not upset she was stealing, but concerned with HER feelings.
Sky, I know wherefore you come from, sugar! I definitely KNOW. But I am LEARNING, I don’t have it “down pat” yet, but I am learning. LEARNING….to insist that those who deal with me do so with respect for MY feelings.
Remember that guy that I dated a time or two a seemingly nice widower, but then he wanted to take the airplane I had (since has been sold) for a joyride without any insurance and without it being current license etc.—and he just kept INSISTING HE WOULDN’T WRECK IT! But if he did it would have been MY PROBLEM in allowing him to fly it, my law suit, my handcuffs from the FAA….nooooo problem, he promised not to wreck it. LOL I decided then and there that I would not date him again, that he was IRRESPONSIBLE and I don’t need anyone who does illegal or irresponsible things in my life. I was not the least bit upset about disappointing him or hurting his feelings. Then, months and months later, AFTER HE HAD REMARRIED, he shows up at my door again! LOL Boy, did I call that one right the first time!
The thing is Sky, we ONLY have to worry about our feelings, and DO WHAT IS RIGHT, without worrying about “hurting someone else’s feelings”—if WE do what is right and call BS on others who do things that are WRONG–it doesn’t matter if their feelings are hurt because we call BS on it! THEY ARE THE ONES IN THE WRONG. That’s what boundaries are all about.
The female version of that first date stalker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3DURBSHs48&feature=related
I do believe I read something similar from a blogger… maybe it’s the same mail, not sure.
But yeah that guy is spathy to me, not asperger. That mail is full of blackmail and pressure to make her feel guilty and put the blame on her as well as entitlement. I can’t read any truly injury in it, just viciousness and rage.
Yes, it sucks when you go out on a date and hope the guy calls again and then doesn’t, even though he said he would. I might be upset about it for a day or two and nag about it on the phone to my best friend. But to actually tell a guy that? Well, I’ve mentioned it to a guy once… when I met him in person, actually when I was already with the ex-spath (whom he turned to go out with one night by chance meeting). I greeted him spontaneously, without any bad feeling, but at some point did amit that at the time I had hoped to hear from him again. His face was priceless: kinda embarrassed, surprised, and a bit of a “I hadn’t thought you would be interested.” It’s not “nice,” but not a biggie either. If it were a biggie, then something would be wrong with the person making such a scene over it: either it means being controlling or having a loopy fantasy.
Regarding “being nice,” I think I got out of many potential scrapes when I was younger and more attractive, with guys who would approach me (on the street) to hit on me. Mostly, I would smile politely and genuinely and say something like, “gee, you made my day! But I have a boyfriend…” and I’d wish them a nice day. This happened about 20 times, and each time they smiled back and wished me a nice day, too, and then LEFT ME ALONE. I saw no reason to be rude to them or to ignore them. And you know, sometimes they approached me in a very obvious way, “hey, you have beautiful eyes. You want to go somewhere with me?” and also each time I did feel that I would not be safe going anywhere with this person and I certainly didn’t want to date them. But I just tried to treat them as a fellow human, ignored the awkwardness of their approach, did not act offended by it, and the reactions I got from my “nice” response were positive, and I ended up feeling that the interaction had been positive and that I’d handled it well, and that maybe this guy just didn’t know how to approach women.
Now that I’m much older, men don’t hit on me anymore (a great relief!). But I do think that niceness works, provided it is done in a sort of “final” way or with that boundary firmly in place, to say a polite “no thank you” and then move on. There are a lot of things (and people) in this life that you end up saying “no” to, and I see no reason not to be courteous.
In the case of this Mike, yes he seems to be a spath for sure. If I had been Lauren, I might have said to him at the end of the date, “thank you for a nice evening.” and if he phoned me afterwards, I might have ignored the call because I didn’t want to talk to him, but later left a VM or text to say, “thanks, but I’m not interested.” and leave it at that.
Total NC drives some N-spaths crazy. I might be afraid it would spur stalking. I never liked it when guys did it to me.
It is true, though, that it is impossible to gauge how any action on my part might or might not cause me to be put in a more unsafe situation. But I do think that limited niceness/politeness has worked for me with most of these strangers or one-date guys who turn out later to be a mistake.
The fact that he googled her and found her email and her age and then inserted himself into her inbox was just way too personal and stalking. But I also wonder if my reaction to that is because I’m older and we didn’t used to be able to do such things (at least, not too easily as it is now, a click of the mouse away).
In the past when I dated, if the guy didn’t call, I kind of had a 2x rule. I’d wait awhile, try again, and if I made 2 attempts to get together and met with refusals or ignoring, then I’d totally stop and move on. It was hard, though, to be ignored (NC) when it had seemed to me that the date had gone well. It led me to think that maybe he wasn’t *really* blowing me off, and I didn’t want to misunderstand. Heck, maybe he was just busy or didn’t get my message. (it was always a short message, something like “I had a really nice time with you. Would you like to get together again?”
Thinking back now, though, I am realizing that NONE of my nice attempts to (stalk?) recontact a NC guy ever worked. Zero. So maybe I was being stalking or pushy. But it hurt and felt dismissive and rude/discourteous — and I did wish he could have been honest with me to say “it was nice, but I don’t think we have enough in common.” Something kind of innocuous. And yes, that did happen sometimes — that the guy would say, “you know, you are really nice but I just don’t feel that spark with you.” and I always appreciated that and would always let it go, then, feeling much more peaceful about it. I am nice, and I like it when people are nice to me.
Skylar,
In response to me, or others’, feeling bad for you. I don’t. I respect and admire you. I have learned tons from you sharing your thoughts, feelings, and processes.
Learning is a life long journey.
xo, Slim
The thing is I think that with Ns and Ps, even “being nice” won’t stop them…. yea, I know what you mean about guys hitting on me when I was young…but they weren’t I think stalkers or psychopaths, just guys trying to get the attention of a pretty young woman by whistling or making a nice comment, and I was not nasty back to them, unless the comment was VERY CRUDE OR RUDE. It depended on the context of the “pass”—if it was nasty, I might respond back with a haughty look and a snort, or a “drop dead,” but if it was cute or nice, I’d smile and say “thanks” and keep on walking.
This guy I don’t think would have taken “no, no thanks” as a FINAL answer, he intended to CONTROL. He may have been dense, but he GOT IT that she didn’t want to contact him, and DEMANDED that she APOLOGIZE for not responding. If the guy got to be a “high level banker” he couldn’t have been THAT SOCIALLY DENSE. He simply felt ENTITLED to her attention.
All the “niceness” in the world from her part I think wouldn’t have satisfied him. I think the fact that he kept on STALKING her… and the more I think about it, the more I think it was STALKING…shows me that his sense of ENTITLEMENT was through the roof.
Thanks Slim,
Your posts always add to my healing as well. Sharing our insights and perspectives is how we’re going to put this puzzle together and find meaning in what began as trauma. Without LF, I’d be so lost.