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By | July 2, 2010 39 Comments

James Arthur Ray: Guru or Charlatan?

By Ox Drover

The ABC network has a new program called Mind Games that plays on Tuesday evening, and I caught their first show. The show was about James Arthur Ray, who is an advocate of the “Law of Attraction” and was one of the people interviewed on the movie The Secret.

Ray has written several “best —selling” books including, Harmonic Wealth as New York Times bestseller. Ray also charges as much as $10,000 for seminars.

Ray’s biography from Wikipedia states that he was born in 1957, the son of a Christian  minister who was so poor at times that the family lived in the Church offices. Ray’s teachings are described as a “mix of spirituality, motivational speaking and quantum physics.”

Critics say that Ray is a charlatan who preys on the insecurities of the rich who are looking for meaning. In one exercise Ray even dressed in flowing white robes and designated  himself as “God.”

In an exercise in October 2009, participants paid almost $10,000 each to attend and were pushed to physical and emotional limits in various exercises, one of which included being in the Arizona desert alone for 36 hours without food or water in a “vision quest.” He left them with only a sleeping bag, but did offer them Peruvian ponchos for an additional $250.  After coming back from that, the participants were  given a buffet breakfast and sent, still dehydrated, into a large sweat lodge. Three people ended up dying as a result of the sweat lodge, during which they were discouraged by Ray from leaving the lodge even though after about an hour they were disoriented and vomiting. One individual who had fallen into the hot rocks and suffered burns in which his skin was “hanging off” his arm, according to a witness, would not let it be dressed but went back into the lodge.

On February 3, 2010, Ray was arrested and charged with three counts of manslaughter for the deaths in October, 2009. Interestingly enough, the former followers of Ray, even though they state that he is a charlatan, still believe that they received “benefits” from his teachings, and would, if they had the money, which they don’t, pay another $10,000 to attend such an event.

Guru? Or charlatan?


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Redwald

Oh, Ray is a charlatan, without doubt! This circus of his was very lucrative until this scandal blew up in Sedona. Killing clients is bad for business.

There’s scads more about him in an enormous long thread on Rick Ross’s forum. (Just click the link.) It includes discussion about the way the whole “sweat lodge” environment was engineered to get the suckers who attended these shows into a more malleable state of consciousness so that they could be manipulated more easily–through oxygen deprivation, among other things.

Ox Drover

Years ago I went to a “church” meeting with a couple who were friends of mine. The “minister” was up on the stage talking about this “great investment opportunity” the Lord had “lead him to” and then he REALIZED how “selfish” he was not to let others in on this GREAT investment so everyone could get rich! Before long the crowd was standing, holding hands and swaying, singing, etc. and I KNEW what was going on (I was about 20 at the time) and yet I was still almost wanting to give him every dime I had to “invest.”

While I DO believe that to a certain extent we “attract” what we want—in the way of self fulfilling prophecy—like if you go up to a person and you are selling Fuller brushes and you say “You don’t want to buy a brush do you?” The persoon is NOT going to buy a brush from you. LOL

Or the old “story/joke” about the guy who broke down and needed a jack and by the time he had walked to the nearest house he had convinced himself the people were snooty and wouldn’t loan him a jack so when the lady opened the door he went off on her about being a snooty biatch!

We NEED positive attitudes to accomplish things, but JUST a postive attitude isn’t going to get us success in life.

For a long time I couldn’t understand how my friends who were intellegent folks could be duped by such an obvious CON MAN of a minister—but I no longer feel so “superior” to my friends, because while I saw through that one and they didn’t, I have been duped by my own con-persons for decades. Thanks for the link Redwald.

Wini

You hit a nerve with me on this post Oxy. I always walked through life meeting and greeting people. I just enjoyed getting to know someone … picking their brains to find out what made them tick. Nothing more, nothing less. Just being friends with new (and of course, old time friends). I was always into getting to know a person. I didn’t want anything from anyone except their friendship and the differences each one has to offer.

That was the old me. Innocent, naive, excited and looking for the raw pearl in the middle of the oyster. The new me looks at people now and thinks “what does this or that one want”? “Is he/she a giver or a taker”? Is what is coming out of her/his mouth the truth or a manipulative lie? Is this person going to be smooth sailing or a rollercoaster ride?

I resent and miss the excitement of seeing the layers peeled neatly off the new person I met (frown) and the spunky attitude take me as I am … I’ve got nothing to hide … I’ll be a new addition to your friends in your life.

Peace.

Ox Drover

Wini, Yea, I useta believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too…and I sort of felt let down when I realized they were just a fantasy, but REALITY is okay too. There ARE evil people in this world, not everyone who says they love you does love you. Being right or even perfect won’t keep you from being crucified! Look what the did to Jesus! I think we SHOULD learn that not everyone is “Mr/Ms Nice-guy” and that people can have ulterior motives.

Sure, it might have been fun when we thought that everyone was “sweet” and “good” but we are GROWN UPS NOW and it is time for us to FACE THE TRUTH of what the world is all about and STILL be good people, JUST NOT GULLIBLE!

Our encounters with the S-paths has given us a clear view of what humanity can be—the up side and the down side! So now we need to put that knowledge to work for ourselves and others.

Wini

What! Waddaya mean there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny?

That’s the innocence I lost. Meeting, greeting and just enjoying people for being who they are.

Our Spaths stole that from us. We got to meet and greet and get to know a lie. I think I would have respected my bosses and my Ex if they came out and said “Wini, I’m the biggest schmuck you’ll ever meet, I lie, cheat, steal, con, destroy … and that’s just the beginning of knowing me”. I would have respected them for that.

Wini

I know, I know, if we really knew them, then they couldn’t get their rocks off for the setting up and screw over.

hens

There aint no santa clause?

Wini

Henry, Henry, Henry … you’re my Huckleberry (SMILE).

How are you buddy tuddy? How’s the doodles? Two of my cats have been out and about since Sunday and Monday nite. I’m feeding all the animals in the neighborhood … since, I’m ensuring they have water and food to grab.

hens

hi wini wini wini – the doodles are good, we just got home from a long trip, they love to go bye bye..I cant leave food outside or I attract all kinds of varment’s and boogers..how are you doing wini?

Wini

I’m fine. I’ve been helping friends paint the inside of their place. We got to use the sponge techniques while painting their kitchen. Came out good if you ask me. I haven’t done this in years … ah, to still have that creative touch (SMILE).

I’m meeting new folks due to these friends and others that came popping into my life again over the last few years.

Speaking of doodles in the car. Oski had half his upper bod hanging out the window … of course, barking and being a nuisance at walker bys in the town we were driving through. He’s so fresh. You didn’t warn me how fresh these guys can be. Oh, a few weeks back I went to a clinic for all his shots. I stood in line at the fire department with 100s of other pet owners, waiting for the one Vet that was working at the event. Low and behold, who do the reporters decide to take a mug shot to be in the next day’s paper? Yup, Oski Doodle … the little cutie pie.

bulletproof

this is an interesting post. I knew a woman therapist who started to ask clients for large amounts of money to ‘invest in their dreams’ something about the placebo effect of belief, if you believe in it enough it will come, and the money was a sign to the universe you meant business….but it’s a technique that I would now associate with a con person. I would not think anyone was a mug for investing in the promise of wealth and abundance, but it happens for the con person…..not the client!!! this therapist was taken to court and is losing everything. Reputation, ethics board struck off, losing her home I last heard….she hurt a lot of people.

This guy in his white God like robes probably sounded like the real deal…do you invest or do you lose the opportunity to expand and recieve ‘benefits’ (allowing someone to fleece you, probably has the same ‘benefits’ of meeting a psychopath, it makes you stronger, it makes you financially stronger as the consciousness is raised via trauma)

charging €10,000 for a seminar is one thing, paying it and attending must have been mind expanding, everyone in denial holding hands singing “we have just traumatised ourselves because we crave a spiritual awakening, praise Ray for providing us with one…”

trauma cracks open the soul like a garlic crusher to allow fuller flavour and I can imagine there are shifts in energy, so what these Guru Charlatans offer is…a safe way to really screw yourself into a more exciting path, you don’t have to wait for a psychopath I will give you the same experience here with other people !!! Bored wealthy people would be prime targets. the karma from setting up such a God like experience treacherous, because he will incur the wrath of a huge mob and they will ‘crucify’ him for being a false God eventually….

BloggerT7165

Oxy,

Charlatan for sure. I think there is something else to be taken from watching that video. When there is talk about empathy decreasing or more narcissistic people, or “victims” who seem to have a lot of traits in common with the psychopath, etc. This video shows an example of the how and why this is/has happened with some. The self-help movement has spawned a lot of this. In the video you see them talk to the Author of the book SHAM and here is what I wrote to him and his response to me:

The few at the end sound not much different than Ray to me. It comes across how awful someone else died but hey it helped me so heck yeah I’d do it again. Or as the one women said:

“It is horrible what happened in the sweatlodge, 3 people died but my life is better and I am so grateful for that, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.”

and his response:

to paraphrase Meg Ryan: yes, yes, YES. I was going to write a new post that homed in on that point explicitly–the narcissism of such comments; the utter detachment from any and all consequences that have no impact on you personally.

This is what the postmodern self-help movement has helped breed, and now those chickens are coming home to roost: It’s all about personal empowerment in an era when “codependency” has come to mean “I don’t really give a crap about anyone else; it’s all about ME.”

I very much agree with him. Just watch the comments the few make at the very end of the show (http://tinyurl.com/27rm9re – complete show) compared to the others. Those few sound much more like Ray though they are also victims of his.

Bullet the sad thing is that it is not just bored wealthy people that get suckered into things like this. He is just one example of many of these type of things out there.

I was a bit miffed that they just casually mentioned the woman who committed suicide and then went on. That happens a lot more than people know in programs like this.

Heck this guy (Ray) was featured on Oprah for pete sake. Look at another guru Joe Vitale for instance. Here is a comment about him:

I still think that the most callous instance of narcissism I’ve seen was when Joe Vitale wrote about his ex-wife’s descent into depression after their divorce (and her having been molested by a “therapist” whom Joe had recommended she use). He ended the narrative with something like, “And yet, my own adventure continues.”

He apparently reworded the offensive paragraph in a subsequent version, but had already shown his true colors.

Forgot to mention: In his description of his ex-wife’s descent into depression, he noted that it ended with her taking her own life, concluding the narrative with the “… meanwhile, my own adventures…” bit.

Of course, he has magnanimously “forgiven” his deceased ex-wife for the “choices she made.” What a mensch, eh?

Yet this guy has a ton of followers just like Ray did. Kevin Trudeau is another example, one of my favorite examples. Yet he continues to have a large loyal ( I would say fanatical) following no matter what.

Watch the people at the end of the video and it is easy to see where the thought that victims of a psychopath have a lot of traits in common with them. The truth is that some do, most don’t.

Frank Lee Speaking

A charlatan of course. Nothing more than a re-launced Christian TV Evangelist with a new angle to manipulate the gullible.

Having said that, I have nothing again people who write geniune self help books and get rich. Good from them. If their book helps people then they deserve to be rich. It’s the whole big money fee for seminars which is the problem. That’s the giveaway – unless he donates the profits from speaking engagments to charity, which I doubt.

The thing with stuff like The Secret, is, like organised religions, politicians and sociopathic relationships. Ultimately it is about handing over your own power to someone else. This is never the answer – it is always the problem. Sure you can be influenced and inspired by the words and deeds of another – but if you need others to validate your existence then this really unhealthy. Isn’t that why we all ended up on Lovefraud?

The journey back to our real self is a long, slow psychological and spiritual path we must all take alone. The only guru we need is ourselves and it is the most devoted guru we will ever find.

I firmly believe, no scrap this, I KNOW that the reason sociopaths came into my life was to finally stop me from handing over my power to other people.

The real “Secret” is that we don’t need middle men.

bulletproof

Frank Lee Speaking

great words to hear, that truly is ‘personal empowerment’ to hold our own power, not give it away…but imagine feeling ‘entitled’ to take someones power away? I never felt I could take someones power away, it is repugnant to me, I’d get a knot in my tummy, I’d KNOW it was wrong, corrupt, miserable etc yet all these fakers risk true happiness for greed

I think of the ancient tradition of the sweatlodge:

The Lakota Nation holds that James Arthur Ray and the Angel Valley Retreat Center have “violated the peace between the United States and the Lakota Nation” and have caused the “desecration of our Sacred Oinikiga (purification ceremony) by causing the death of Liz Neuman, Kirby Brown and James Shore (wikipedia)

I think of the Native American people and what happened to their sacred ‘way of being’ the betrayal goes on, but I celebrate the fact that I know it is wrong. I feel it . To transgress your own moral code is a felt sense…and it comes from within.

Frank Lee Speaking

Very good bulletproof. That’s a real example of being inspired but not being led. Take the words of wisdom into oneself and then begin an internal dialogue. Matters not, what your religious background is, although not meaning to offend anyone, but sociopath victims of a Judeo-Christian background will have the most difficult path to recovery as the Bible is practically a manual of sociopathy – especially the Old Testement. But the words of Jesus contain many useful teachings. But I would suggest not running into the arms of any belief package religious, secular, New Age or otherwise. Run to yourself. That’s were the real truth is waiting for you.

This is why the sociopath came along. “Something” in us needed to have this one-to-one conversation with ourselves. The end result I can promise you and all the others, currently recovering from sociopaths is worth it in the long run. You become a more wise and independent thinking person and magical events unfold before you and real love pours into your life like a torrent.

Look at it this way. There is no other way out for the sociopath other than to find another victim. These idiots are trapped in a death spiral towards oblivion. Their victims on the other hand can learn so much from the horrors the sociopath inflicted upon them – and believe me like anything else worth having in life it is not easy. But in the end the rewards are endless – more than the sociopath would have ever furnished you with.

I know a lot of people on this board hate me, but that’s OK. I understand most of them are in the early stages or recovery and the honesty thing with themselves hasn’t happened yet. But it will, they have no choice – and when it does, you wake up a different person one morning. You are no longer in a state of defence, you are in offense, And it not about “getting even” with the sociopath in their world. It is about getting even on YOUR TERMS.

Albert Einstein said that you cannot solve a problem with the same conciouness which created the problem. This is such a brilliant statement. No victim of the sociopath will ever truly win, or get satisfaction playing in the world of the sociopath, and by the sociopath rules. You have to take the battle to a place the sociopath fears the most – to your inner self, your higher self – your psyche.

I have been put through hell by two sociopaths. I had the horror filled nights were killing myself seemed like an opition. I hated myself for leaving my DNA in such horrible people and considered the DNA they left in me to be a toxin polluting me. But eventually you realise that while this is the world of the sociopath, the one place the sociopath cannot go were the victim can is our spirit.

There is nothing new age or religious about this. We all have a spirit, or if you have a secular mindset, then a self. Sadly the sociopath knows we also have this thing called The Ego which although it is a useful survivial mechanism with a real Evolutionary requirement, the sociopath also knows that our Ego is also very totalitarian and is constantly putting our spirit/self into its place.

That’s because the sociopath cannot ever trancend the trappings of the ego – so it pins the victim into an ego-mindset. Hence the sexuality and the judgement.

Get out of your ego based prision the sociopath has trapped you and get to know the real you behind it. That’s the only real path to eventual recovery from the socipaths, and the best revenge of all.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

from bloggers t’s post above: I still think that the most callous instance of narcissism I’ve seen was when Joe Vitale wrote about his ex-wife’s descent into depression after their divorce (and her having been molested by a “therapist” whom Joe had recommended she use). He ended the narrative with something like, “And yet, my own adventure continues.”

THIS VERY ATTITUDE is what we fight as survivors….my own 2 friends finding me ‘not so much fun’ to be around anymore. Compassion; have you folks HEARD of compassion? And yes, i do believe that the self help movement is part of paint that has created this n landscape we live in – this place where many will not stand up for or stand with others. I never read or watched the Secret. Please if you like it, this is not a personal condemnation, k? – But it didn’t smell good. Too many people making too much money and grandiose claims – and wishing something to be so doesn’t make it so, and having a ‘good attitude’ is not the end all. that program read like just a guilt entrapment mechanism to me.

what has happened to ‘decency’? to asking people in pain and difficulty, ‘what can i do to help’? something simple or something not so easy to give, or just to listen, or to sweep the damn floor for someone who can’t? I don’t live like that. i give. as much as i can. and i will continue to do so. right now, i don’t have so much energy and i have to take care of myself – and really have to learn how to put myself first right now – and that’s an inside job – to give to myself. when i feel i neeeed to work, and my body needs to rest, i am learning to rest. poorer, but more rested. this is not an easy thing to learn. everything in my past works against it. everything. my mother almost worked herself to death. in a way, i suspect her dementia was triggered by a long line of events that CAN be attributed to her working too hard under dire circumstances. i have the model. now that i find myself in difficult difficult times i must break this training at its deepest levels. it is a challenge and i fail often. but i am also successful at times.

i am still kind, and generous. but i am other things also. today i will be at the beach at the same time as the friends who have no time for me now. this will be the first time i am in public not with them. we have gone most places togehter for the last 6 years. i will be authentic. i will do my best to stay aware of my feelings and the reality that I see….they lack compassion. and i, regardless of the years of care and shared experience, do not want to have people in my life who cannot step up. I am not rejecting them. I am just seeing the truth. about them and about me. they lack the depth to stand with. i do not. right now i lack the stamina, physically to do much beyond myself. but that will change. and i hope that i will be able to do more than ever. but smarter. there are dynamics in my relationships – things i do, that i want to explore and possibly change. mostly i want compassion for myself. THAT is authenticity. and all compassion to others – wise, wrathful or gentle, can flow from that. i am tired (as usual) and in pain, and this will not be the easiest day. but i will try to be aware of myself and my feelings and be as real as i can.

Ox Drover

Guys, this is the VERY discussion I most wanted this thread to “provoke”—thank you all for your contributions to a thought provoking discussion.

Blogger, I too found the discussion with the people at the end, holding on to the “benefit” they got from the association with Ray and in spite of the deaths in the sweat lodge.

Last night I was rereading Gavin DeBecker’s book “The gift of fear” and it just so happened I was reading about why victims of physical abuse do not leave. How they make excuses, etc. It hit me then that What Ray was doing was essentially like the abusive husband was doing to his wife, he was causing pain and then “saving” them from the pain, over and over and over—in other words, TRAUMA BONDING them to him. DeBecker also talked in that same chapter about how many abused women cannot be convinced to leave an abuser for themselves, but only for the safety of their children.

Frank lee, I am of course not able to speak for others about you comment of “I know some people on the board hate me” but in my case that is NOT the case, and probably not for others. Sometimes you have been very harshly judgmental IN MY OPINION, but I also understand that in some aspects of healing we become RAW and harshly judgmental, so for the present I will reserve judgment (as if my opinion matters to anyone except myself) LOL

Your comments about the Bible being filled with examples of sociopathic people is entirely correct, but there are also some great examples of how to deal with these people and warning about how to avoid them. Even for people who have no faith in the spiritual guidance of the Bible, there is some great lessons from Psychology 101 in there.

Frank Lee Speaking

“Your comments about the Bible being filled with examples of sociopathic people is entirely correct, but there are also some great examples of how to deal with these people and warning about how to avoid them. Even for people who have no faith in the spiritual guidance of the Bible, there is some great lessons from Psychology 101 in there. ” – OxDrover

To a point I agree. The problem the bible is not filled with sociopathic people, the issue is that the bible is filled with a socipathic god. Just not a healthy vantagepoint to deal with sociopath recovery, as every sociopath considers him or herself a god. Bit like going to a chcolate shop to cure type 2 diabetes.

Maryjane

Why is it that so many believe in what ‘they’ say instead of what they themselves ‘know’ in their heart. It’s like few listen to themselves and will rely on what others tell them is true or the thing to do or whatever. It’s like so many are on a search for something, when they have it inside themselves the whole time. Look at what Oprah has created for herself on just this premise. She is one of the worst pied pipers and she had this ‘Secret’ guy on her show and promoted his book and teachings and when she promotes something … they take off with her validation. People need ot learn to listen to themselves and not so much to others.. It’s like most are just sheeple… and these self-proclaimed guru types know that, count on that and make it their business to con in this manner..

http://www.womenexplode.com

Ox Drover

Style, ABSOLUTELY—look at how people have “followed” so many Pied Pipers through the ages–Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc are just a few examples it starts out with idolitry of the individual and their promises of “great things” then the people are HOOKED and the violence begins. The “guru” love bombs the victim(s) and once the victims are hooked on this “too good to be true” promise then the violence and fear starts.

I remember when “The Secret” came out and some friends of my adopted son’s sister were over here looking at the DVD and saying how “great it was” and I thought, “HUH?” All you have to do is have this positive attitude and everything is going to come to you? But that line has been around much longer than “The Secret” a friend of mine back in 1981 had been to that kind of semiinar and came away thinking if she just THOUGHT about money and believed it would come then her purse would fill up. Of course if the purse DIDN’T fill up it was because she didn’t try hard enough, but if any money came in it PROVED her thinking about it had worked. (at least to her)

I definitely believe we need a positive attitude in life, but I do not believe a positive attitude ALONE is going to reach out to the universe and bring us love, money, or anything else we don’t work toward getting. Even in the Bible, St. Paul talks about having FAITH (that’s a positive attitude) but goes on to say “SHOW ME YOUR FAITH BY YOUR WORKS.” If you have the FAITH it can be seen by your ACTIONS. Positive ACTIONS show that you have a positive ATTITUDE.

When people don’t have enough confidence in their own decisions, thinking, etc. they look for a guru to guide them—whether it is Oprah or James Ray, or Dr. Phil and the embody “wisdom” and so on into these people and accept their opinions as better than mine.

Well, I would HOPE if I go to the doctor my doctor’s knowledge and training would be better than mine about what I needed to do to improve my health, but at the same time, I’m not going to leave my COMMON sense at the door when I walk in.

I would hope that the carpenter who builds my house would know more about house building than I do, or the mechanic that fixes my car would know more about cars than I do, but again, I’m going to keep my common sense intact and not take just ANYONE’s word for gospel unless they can explain to me why their opinion is the right thing to do, and even then, on serious matters, I’ll get a second opinion. Check references etc.

Frank lee, we can agree to disagree about the nature of God, but the “pictures” of the psychopaths in the Bible are so well drawn, that even as just “literature” like the Greek and Roman myths, there are some great portraits there, and also some great advice on how to deal with them. My favorite I think is the story of Joseph, an arrogant little teenager, daddy’s favorite, and his brothers were so pithed that they wanted to kill him, but sold him off as a slave instead. I imagine that Joseph was pretty pithed off about all this, but in the end, he had forgiven his brothers (gotten the bitterness out of his heart) but when his brothers turned up years later, he did NOT immediately embrace them, but instead TESTED them quite harshly to see what kind of men they were NOW. We they like they had been 10-20-30 years before? Or had they changed? Only when he saw that they had REPENTED of what they had done and would NOW actually give up their own lives and freedom to protect Benjamin the youngest, not just for Benjamin himself, but for their father’s pain at losing Joseph would be unbearable if he also lost Benjamin. They had an EMPATHY for their father, and CARED about his feelings where before they had not. Then and only then did Joseph reveal himself to his brothers.

This story gave me a framework to realize that “forgiveness”
is an act, not a “gushy feeling” that includes giving back TRUST to the person who had hurt me. I also realize that keeping bitterness in my soul toward someone is like me drinking poison and expecting someone else to die!

Because of the attitude my egg donor presented God to me, my relationship to God was one of FEAR, but now, my faith in the God I see is a comfort to me. You may not have that same comfort, and that’s okay for you, I don’t go around telling people “believe the way I do or you are going to burn in hell fire” (even if I believed such a thing) because I think that everyone has a perfect right to believe what they want to about the spiritual aspects of being a human. So I promise not to try to convert you if you promise not to criticise my beliefs on spiritual matters. Is that okay?

In the meantime, I don’t follow any particular guru on spiritual matters, but read the Bible itself and make up my own mind about these things. I’ve found that letting other people make up my mind for me doesn’t work. I do listen to different perspectives, but reserve the right to make my own decisions and validate my own reality of truth.

Style, thanks for that women explode dot com link. That’s a cool site!

Frank Lee Speaking

“Why is it that so many believe in what ’they’ say instead of what they themselves ’know’ in their heart. ” – style1

It is easier to have someone else think for you so you do not have to assert your own psychological and spiritual freewill. Maybe this is the function of sociopaths? To light a fire under our backsides so we finally look in the mirror? I dunno. It’s a tough call.

Another thing is, people are perhaps the least intelligent we have been since the Middle Ages. If you read letters written by even the most ordinary folk from 100 to 200 years ago, they were so much more wise and articulate than the people in Western society today who are obsessed with celebs and the like.

A lot of this is due to the education system which is not about teching people how to think for themselves, rather it is a machine to destroy their independence to create workers. TV has been a gigantic social disaster too. I threw mine away last year and its been wonderful in our home ever since.

Couple this the collapse of the family and you have a society eager for gurus and all kinds of father figures to save them. Hence why this was until recently a golden age for sociopaths. Not anymore…

OxDrover — Very good overview on this issue. Like you, I believe to a certain extent that we “attract” what we want.

I also think we get programmed early to believe or want things we may later find we don’t really want or value.

Style1’s points on this matter, and OxDrover’s summary of how gurus are taken at face value as if they have all the answers, should give us pause.

Do we really believe something because of our own views/experiences OR are we just absorbing what others (family, friends, media, society) have helped to plant in our minds?

The inner journey involves much confusion to sort through it all: Who/what we really are, compared to what we’ve bought into that doesn’t really fit/or work for us and what others TELL US is important to want/value.

Trusting ourselves — and honoring what is right for us — evolves more when we become more clear with boundaries/distinguishing between ourselves and rest of the world.

I think it also allows us to accept that others can be legitimately different from us and value different things, without feeling a need to view them as completely wrong because they differ.

Ox Drover

Deaar Fannie,

I agree! We need to be TOLERANT of others and to be TOLERANT of ourselves as well.

We need to be OPEN MINDED, but NOT so “open minded” that our BRAINS fall out! LOL

It is scary to me when I realize that people DO follow the Hitlers of this world, which includes HURTING OTHERS, not just a belief system that is benign.

It is scary to me when charlatans like Ray take advantage of people, and put them in danger—or even kill them—and sometimes I wonder if I have a “right” to disagree with those people who do that to themselves (worship this guru or that guru) they are adults and have FREE CHOICE like I do.

There are a lot of philosophical questions in life that I don’t know the answer to. Probably don’t even know all the questions, much less the answers.

Is abortion murder or free choice of a woman’s body?

Is suicide, assisted or otherwise, always wrong?

Is it my business if a person over 18 does drugs and lays on the street stoned out of their mind (as long as they are not harming someone else or neglecting a child etc.)?

If a person over 18 wants to “earn” their living selliing their bodies sexually to people who want to buy sex, is that my business?

If a person wants to give their money to some person to go to a “sweat lodge” and risk their own life, is that my business?

I do think it is the STATE’s business if someone is harming others without cautioning them about the dangers of what they are selling. Tobacco kills way many more people than street drugs every year, drunk drivers kill more people and injure more people every year than illegal drugs, yet we are not very “harsh” about drunk drivers and the people they injure or kill. WHY? I’m not sure about that.

I think drunk drivers should be crucified and their bodies left for the crows on the side of the road even if they don’t kill anyone while they are driving drunk. I have no problem with anyone over 21 (or whatever is the legal age in that state) getting falling down drunk and puking on the living room floor til their guts hang out, because they are only hurting themselves. The ones who get behind the wheel are risking everyone else’s health.

We had a case here in this county where a DRUNK mother drove her car down a boat ramp into a lake and drowned her three kids under 10 years old. She first tried to sue the state because there wasn’t a guard rail that would have kept her from driving down the boat ramp, but she ended up being allowed to plead to 3 counts of child endangerment (endangerment, they DIED for goodness sakes) and she got 18 months, and will probably do 8 or 9 of that. The kids will still be DEAD when she gets out.

I personally think she should have been sterilized so she could never have any more kids, but what you wanna bet she ends up with more kids?

I also think anyone convicted of taking drugs while they are preg should be sterilized and all children taken away from them. But I am a radical old biddy and I know such a thing will never happen and there will continue to be thousands of kids damaged by drugs before they are born, and raised in hell on earth after birth by parents who drink and drug and neglect or abuse them.

So for me the “line” is, are you harming yourself or others? If what you do doesn’t harm others, I’m pretty tolerant of your behavior even if it is harmful to you, I may not want to be around you, or associate with you, and I sure won’t enable you, but if you are an adult, “you makes yer choices, and takes the consequences,” but in the event that your behavior harms others, then I think the STATE has a vested interest in stopping that behavior.

OxDrover: So well said…”for me the line is: are you harming yourself or others? If what you do doesn’t harm others, I’m pretty tolerant of your behavior even if it is harmful to you.”

Indeed — Tolerance has its limits.

Rosa

My personal fave is this latest craze that is known as the LIFE COACH! 🙂 LMAO!!!

Yes!! We all need someone to coach us through life!! 🙂

I’m sorry….I’m being so sarcastic right now.

I’m feeling Sparky on the 4th of July! 🙂 (Firecracker emoticons go here)

Seriously, though….for a while, it seemed like these life coaches were appearing in huge numbers out of nowhere…..and charging a lot of $$ for their “knowledge?”.

Ox Drover

Yea, some of those “life coaches” are pulling down BIG bucks for making your decisions for you! I guess it is like hiring a “mother” to boss you around in your personal life! I had one of those, but thanks, NO THANKS! I’m coaching my own team now! LOL

BOOOOOOM!!!!!!! Ka-BOOOOOM! Sparklys here!!!! Happy nearly the 4th!

bulletproof

Frank Lee Speaking

you say:

“To a point I agree. The problem the bible is not filled with sociopathic people, the issue is that the bible is filled with a socipathic god. Just not a healthy vantagepoint to deal with sociopath recovery, as every sociopath considers him or herself a god. Bit like going to a chcolate shop to cure type 2 diabetes”.

Such a daring, poignant statement, after a couple of glasses of wine it must be said!!. In my opinion, Jesus of Nazareth would actually agree! as for everyone else? probably not…the haters as you say have not faced the egoic death that is the hallmark of recovery from a psychopath…not easy, and I speak for myself (NO ONE ELSE), I am caught in a hate spiral towards the “perpetrator” and have little energy for anything else. That’s why I am here on this site instead of IN my life!!

So can I just affirm your words are healing for me, I welcome your controversial insight and incisive mind.

and no we do not attract what we want, we attract what we NEED…the discrepancy is worth looking at!

wheresmylife

Not sure if my story is completely relevant to this post, but I actually used the Law of Attraction when I met my S. When I had a bad feeling about him, I would think positive thoughts and write positive affirmations about him and our relationship. This is what really got me into trouble, because when I had the bad feeling in my gut, I chose to turn it around into a positive. If I felt he was cheating, I would say that he was faithful to me and that he was true. If I felt that he was using me for money, I would say that he was true to me and prosperity was on it’s way to us.

I still believe in the power of positive thinking, but I think that I used it in the wrong way and it really got me into some serious trouble. I really am going through a rough weekend and so many of the things that I had believed in, just seem so distant right now.

The one thing that I know for sure is that God loves me and has answered my prayer to show me to truth about my S. At this point, I need God to guide me back to emotional health and help heal my pain.

Frank Lee Speaking

“Rosa says: – My personal fave is this latest craze that is known as the LIFE COACH! 🙂 LMAO!!!”

I used to think that was a load of garbage as well and in terms of rich folks paying for a Life Coach it really is stupid. But I have a friend who is a young woman, but amazingly she is also an undertaker. She became a life coach (charges no fee) due to the insight she gained from dealing with dead people in a dignified way, coupling this with sensitive interactions with the family of the deceased. She is only 27 and one of the most wise and compassionate people I ever met and she calls herself a Life Coach and is proud of it.

Like I said, she charges no fee so she is not the kind of clown the average Hollywood flake keeps as a social status. But there really are some people who literally find life extremely difficult and need people like my freind just to be there for them when they can’t go on. Especially in this day and age were familes are in ruins and TV has made everyone’s view of reality so completely distorted that they really have no idea who they are or what their purpose in life is.

Frank Lee Speaking

wheresmylife says: “The one thing that I know for sure is that God loves me and has answered my prayer to show me to truth about my S. At this point, I need God to guide me back to emotional health and help heal my pain. ”

and it will happen too.

Ox Drover

Dear Frank Lee,

I don’t think your friend who doesn’t charge a fee for her “coaching” is what we were talking about as a “life coach” There are some “ministers” who eithr take a reasonable salary or no salary for their ministries and there is Bakker who took zillions of $$ and the other ones I could also name and encourage the parishioners to give and give and give while they become wealthy.

I think everyone here who gives advice to someone else or comforts them is a “life coach” the OLDER NAME FOR THIS IS FRIEND! Smile

Ox Drover

Dear Wheresmylife,

Welcome to LF! I’m sorry you have a need to be here, but it is a great place to learn about both the psychopaths and about healing! KNOWLEDGE=POWER so hang around and I suggest reading the old archived articles, there is a lot of wisdom in them! again Welcome, and God Bless.

Wini

Thank God for giving you wisdom Oxy, so you can tell it like it is aka Life Coach being the new terminology for Friend.

I enjoyed that one.

Ox Drover

LOL Thanks Wini! I do have my funny moments! LOL

bulletproof

wheresmylife- I was the same!! I had a therapist and I was working on becoming more positive and attracting the right relationship for me…The therapist kept telling me to override my instinct to get out because , I was ‘sabotaging’ the relationship because of my lack of trust in it. I was being told to TRUST a psychopath….I don’t blame the therapist, I blame myself for giving the therapist my power, when I knew better…I would NEVER go to that therapist again. He he even tried working with me and the P and missed every sign..I could see it all happening and this is also the stuff of my flashbacks…

So I “judged” my God given intuition as my enemy, most of the red flags were turned into a white ones curtesy of positive thinking, and a therapist in my ear saying stay with it, invest into it, go further..my fault for listening, I can see it now so clearly in hindsight. it’s painful!

It’s a disgrace really because Therapists are only useful (in my opinion) to the extent they foster an internal locus of evaluation, that means the answer is inside, the answer is always inside…and whilst we can read books, use therapy and perhaps go through a phase of needing them to “tell us what to do” a good therapist will always, always return the power back to the client, so that the therapy can end and the answers are now from within…a bit like teaching us how to use our own unique sensing devices rather than BECOMING the device (which costs money to consult with) eh and no one will be telling ME what to do for a while…the anger that comes up when I feel someone manipulating me…time…it’ll take time…

Ox Drover

Well, he is coming to trial now, and there are various people testifying about what happened in the sweat lodge. Be interesting to see what the outcome of this trial is.

Here’s a link to one of the stories, there are many other stories out there about the trial as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/08/arizona.sweat.lodge.trial/index.html

Ox Drover

False Guru James Ray convicted of three counts negligent homicide for sweat lodge deaths, yet his followers still stand behind this man and his cultish teachings.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/06/22/20110622sweat-lodge-case-james-ray-verdict-arizona.html

Ox Drover

Sentencing verdict in. I don’t think it is enough time, but what do I know? ONLY three people paid $10,000 each to be baked to death, the rest that paid this guru 10K, well they got out alive at least.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/justice/arizona-sweat-lodge-sentencing/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

KatyDid

Said this over and over and have been shut down as not giving the idea a chance, “THE Secret” message is that we’re not responsible for the outcome of our behavior towards others.

So when people are attracted to that message… can psychopathy be far behind?

One of the women who my husband cheated with was one of these “wish” women. That’s what I call the followers of The Secret, the Wish Women, b/c they believe if you WISH for it, it will happen. BS The mindset sets you up as a target for spaths. It’s GULLIBLE 101.

I am a sales person in my career. There is a school of thought where you get others together in a group to “support” you. They “like” your fb page. They write reviews for your work. The internet LOVES this kind of activity and it moves your website to the top b/c the algorithms search data for patterns. It’s not personal, it’s jsut a way to beat the system. “The Secret” group of people work the same, they review each others books, they promote each others sales material. AND one cornerstone is setting the price.

It’s not RICH people paying $10,000 to walk on stones Tony Robbins. It’s poor people scraping up, going into debt, b/c they are convinced there is a short cut to riches and success. (or affluent but uneducated about how to live rich people) Shortcut kind of people are PERFECT spath prey.

ps Rich people pay for one on one coaching, whether it’s for exercise or financial investing or medical or a therapist. $10K is NOT a rich people price.

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