By | May 1, 2008 69 Comments

Josef Fritzl – psychopath

By now everyone knows about the astounding case of incest, etc. in Austria. The abominable story can be read here. No doubt some are going to excuse Josef Fritzl by suggesting that he must be a mad man. Others (for instance here) will find fault with society.

These rationalisations are because for regular people the immensity of the crimes are blinding. But there are enough clues already that what Fritzl is is a psychopath and as such is responsible for his actions.

Take one small detail – the alleged role of drugs in the case.

Franz Polzer, the Austrian police chief leading the investigation, said Fritzl had given the impression, during protracted interrogations, that after 24 years he now actually believed the web of lies he had constructed to keep his incest a secret from his own family, the police and the public.

“Fritzl insisted that he chose Elisabeth as his favourite daughter, built the bunker just for her and felt that he had to lock her up because he was frightened that she was about to become involved with drugs.”

The reality was quite different. When his daughter was 18, Fritzl lured her into the elaborate cellar which he had built under his home during the Cold War in the late 1970s with the help of a government grant available for constructing domestic shelters against nuclear fall-out.

Police said he drugged his daughter with ether and handcuffed her to a wall in the cellar. During the first years he is alleged to have “kept her like an animal”.

Isn’t this classic? The kernel of truth is something to do with drugs, but see the evil inversion of the lie: he was trying to save her from drugs when in fact he used drugs against her.

(I wonder what thoughts readers have about Fritzl’s wife, Rosemarie, who police say was wholly ignorant of the matter. Asked why Mrs F was not being investigated, Colonel Polzer replied: “Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”)

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thanks so much, I was just about to post the link…Honestly, I would not be surprized if his wife was convinced that everything he was saying to her was “true”…They are skillful liars and manipulators…I cannot get just one thing…24 years of lying…I cannot imagine how can you keep that “fake mask” for 24 years without cracks?



anyway I am also posting a link to yet another psychopath here…I still remember all those TV news when he got caught…


“Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”

Well, if she also lacks in empathy and remorse, than I’m sure it would be possible. It’s absurd that she never noticed her husband going downstairs and moving a concrete wall to feed the daughter everyday and the wife never noticed anything strange.

It’s also possible that he manipulated her not to be suspicious, as it happens to every victim of a perverse. But how come for so many years!!!

Another thing that is strange about this case is the fact that it seems that the daughter and the children never tried to escape.

It’s funny how reality can mix with fantasy. We will never know exactly how the minds of these sick people work.

“Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”

Oh, probably loads of reasons. Some we can maybe understand, some we cannot. One, she might have been just as messed-up as he was and allowing him to act it out for her.

For my parents, they let it all happen in front of their eyes, they let my brother beat me, knock me unconscious, break my wrist, leave big blood clots in the back of my head from bashing it repeatedly against a bed post, chase me with guns, knives and the dog leash for a whip, verbally abuse me, jump off the porch three steps onto my back, punch me in the skull and knock me out, shoot at me with bb guns and more.

And when I swore at my brother for it, my father came over and slapped me across the face — FOR SWEARING.

I kicked him square in the privates for that, too. Something just snapped in me, right then, at all of 13 years old. I knew I did not deserve to be slapped for swearing at someone who was regularly assaulting me.

They accepted these things for any number of reasons. One, they were afraid of my brother, themselves. Two, they were in deep denial — the happy family they envisioned when adopting us probably did NOT involve one kid beating the shit out of the other one on a weekly basis. Three, they were ashamed to do anything about it, because it would mean ‘airing dirty laundry’ AND admitting that we were not picture perfect.

I don’t think they knew about the sexual abuse, though. That might have just pushed them over the edge, so I kept my mouth shut. Knew even as a pre-teen that their souls could not handle such knowledge – that it might honestly kill them to know.

These things, these little ‘acceptances’ don’t happen like the reveals do, or the eventual police involvement, where the rest of the world “finds out”. The latter happens all at one moment and is shocking.

The internal family unit buildup to a place where the father or another family member is molesting and/or physically assaulting the child is a slow, subtle process. It requires stealth actions on the part of the abuser. He must first systemically break-down every other family member’s potential objection or refusal.

This my brother did through intimidation of my parents and me. Through capriciousness, through boundary-crossing, lies and denial. Ambient abuse.

Once he realized he was free to do as he wanted, then the real fun began for him. He not only had power and control over me, but he held our parents in his sway. Master of the house.

It is all gradual, just as our experiences with P’s is gradual. If they did what they wanted to do right from the start, without first breaking down our defenses, not a single one of us would have stuck around.

She knew.

Where was her daughter?
hmmm….you don’t report a missing person for years?????

She knew, she knew—she sacrificed her….a family member did the same thing. Save the locked cell.

Maybe she was terrifed of him, but there is NO WAY she did not know.


well…sure enough police officer told the reporters that “He appeared to be emotionless about what he did”

yep, what a surprise god damn

Ox Drover


Sounds like your “happy family” was about like my mother’s growing up—her brother choked her unconscious from birth to age 7 on a regular basis, and HER MOTHER KNEW but would not either stop it herself or TELL HIS FATHER, now get this, “because if his dad knew he would whip him and he might run away”—DUH! Well, when my mom was 7 and her brother 14 her dad did find out an whomped the crap out of his son and guess what, THE PHYSICAL ABUSE STOPPED.

My mother was a “don’t take no crap off anyone” person until her mother died, then she did a 180 and became the “family peacemaker”—at ANY PRICE OF COURSE AND YOU (not she) pays the price.

When my grandmother died, when my kids were very young, that was whem my mom started the ENABLING big time.

Orphan, I am so SO VERY SORRY that you had to endure such horrible abuse as a child and that your adoptive parents did not protect you from such a MONSTER sib. It speaks volumes about why it is difficult for you to set boundaries, but believe me (((hugs)))) YOU CAN TEACH YOURSELF TO DO SO. You are no longer that powerless child, you are now a POWERFUL ADULT, and you just have to BELIEVE THAT.

One of the animal training things that I use is that when I train a pair of oxen, I start when they are tiny, when I can make them do anything because I am just about bigger, much smarter, and convince them I am “god” and that they are WEAK and I am STRONG. When they weigh 2000 pounds and I weight–well, never mind what I weigh, it is less than they do LOL—they still think I am “god” and that they CANNOT resist me. They WILL NEVER EVEN TRY to resist me because when they were babies I taught them that they could NEVER SUCCEED in resisting me, so when they are HUGE, and could with a flickk of their heads kill me, if I were to BEAT them, they would hunker down and take it wihtout any resistence. (Of course I don’t beat them) But if I did, they would not resist.

Actually it is a big “power trip” to get beside 4,000 pounds of big steers (oxen) and with a switch in your hand not as big as a fly swatter (and it is for cueing not beating) go off down the road IN TOTAL CONTROL. Essentially they have Stockholm syndrome, but it is why they pull wagons for us and our ancestors and we don’t pull them for them. LOL

You had that “powerlessness” beaten into you as a child by the P-sib, and your parents whose duty DUTY it was to protect you did not, so you got lots of messages, that you were weak, powerless, worthless and should feel guilty because you were no good and that you were not allowed to set boundaries…hey, this is great if you are an oxen bound for a life of servitude in front of a wagon or plow, but for a human being it is pretty miserable—BUT YOU CAN REVOLT, YOU CAN STAND UP, YOU CAN REBEL AGAINST THESE ENSLAVING THOUGHTS—-throw off the chains my friend! ((BIG HUGS)

Ox Drover

On this case of EXTREME abuse, I think in a way that this kind of extreme psychopath (and of course we have NO doubt what he is) in a way is counterproductive to teaching “normal” people what ANY psychopath does NOT have to go to this extreme to “qualify” as a psychopath.

Others will see HIM as some “poor victim” of some mental illness. Yes, his crime was terrible, but poor dear, he was mentally deranged so should not be held accountable.

As far as his wife “knowing” or “not knowing”–she probably saw RED FLAGS (like we all did) and ignored them. I h ave no doubt that Josef abused her as well in a thousand ways as well as his daughter.

Yes, he is a MEGA-MONSTER, with…aren’t they ALL? They just abuse in different ways, to different extents—but ALL abuse others.

My sentiments exactly OxDrover… the world associates the term ‘psychopath’ with extreme cases like Hannibal Lector and Josef Fritzl. I have followed the Fritzl story very closely and although you and I and all the lovefraud readers have a deeper understanding of psychopathy than the average person, I am so deeply saddened. The cruelty of this man is beyond my mind.

We all know that psychopathy, as with all mental or personality disorders, has varying degrees of severity. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being what we consider normal and 10 being the extreme, if Hannibal’s actions depict 10, Fritzl is surely at something like 42. He is OFF THE CHARTS!!! This has to be the most extreme case of human behaviour ever and there really are no words to describe the horror of what these fellow human beings (the family) have been subjected to for such a long period of time, albeit some of them have known no other way, and of how this mans mind was working!! His life-history explains so much about his behaviour but DOES NOT excuse him in ANY way for the extremity of this crime. He is NOT insane. An insane person would not have been able to maintain the lie for that long.

What the world does NOT know is that the MAJORITY of psychopths exist and operate on that sliding scale between 4-8 … they are not quite bad enough to be convicted of any crime but certainly bad enough to cause serious emotional and mental damage on a personal level, as we have all experienced.

The work of this website is a perfect medium to shed some light on an eerie, sinister and largely unspoken aspect of human nature… until something like this arises. I encourage you all to send an email to everyone in your address book suggesting they visit for a facinating insight into the Fritzl-type personality. The world’s eyes are on this case right now and people want to know WHAT possessed him to act out with such horrendous cruelty. Some ‘sound’ education for those who are in abusive relationships, but just don’t know WHAT they are facing will, I’m sure find lovefraud a godsend.

Knowledge is POWER
Power brings SELF-RESPECT
Self-respect brings HEALING

Ox Drover


You know you compare the Fritzl thing which took place over a couple of decades of continued abuse, and the one where the P just killed the 3 small children of his and his x-wife’s “to punish her” after he was granted unsupervised visitation—which is “worse?” They are both so HORRIBLE THAT even we have trouble getting our “heads around it.” We believe it, we know it is possible, and yet….it makes me so incredibly sad.

I find it almost impossible to believe that Fritzl’s wife didn’t know something was up, and yet, she was as much a victim as her daughter. How many of us have ignored RED FLAGS—All of us? How many have had Stockholm Syndrome? Many of us.

What is even more frustrating to me is the courts who don’t “get it” and the psychologists who are so arrogant about their own ability that they let the Ps sucker them too. The judges who make “snap” judgments without taking into consideration the CHILDREN’s rights to safety. I can only hope that in the end this is SOOOOOOO HORRIBLE that the murder of those children sparks a thing like the “amber alerts” that have saved so many lives that it is no longer national news when a life is saved by the Amber Alerts.

We all know the “better safe than sorry” rule and it seems that even on the OFF chance that someone may be harmful to the chldren at least, the VERY least supervised visitation by someone shoUld be MANDATORY–MANDATED BY LAW, so the judges don’t have discression like this.

I am frustrated too with the “criminal justice” system that is going to turn my Trojan Horse P back out on the street. This has been a stressful week for me, frustrating, and along with the horror stories as well, a bit overwhelming for me.

OxDrover… I can’t even relate to where you’re at right now if this is the week they are letting him out. I wish you strength and NO nonsense. I agree completely about the red flags and these are the warning signs that we must educate others with.

My own situation is on a different level but this is also a very significant time for me. This time last year I was in the THICK of my encounter with my psycho. I find that my memory recalls the occurances of the days with alarming clarity. Dates, times, spoken words and actions… it’s surreal yet brazenly real. And today, as I was recalling some of it I came to wonderful realization… as much as my mind was grinding away at the psychological SHOCKKKK that tore into the deepest part of my existence and the depths of dispair I felt in those days, today I am in a MUCH better place. I spend my time with real people who have proven themselves to me over and over again, through their loyalty, care and love… and I am so greatful for that.

Strength to you.

Ox Drover


I am blessed with a FEW good family members, including my two NON-P sons, and some really really REALLY close friends. Fortuntely I don’t have any small chldren and a psychopathic ex, but my sympathy goes to those who do. Just hearing about this triple murder with the mother begging the court not to do it sort of put me back in the court room where I was begging the court and anyone who would listen to protect my mother from the Ps—(she didn’t want protection from them, she wanted protection from ME) four months later two of them were arrested, but will both be back on the street by May 21.

Actually I have been doing quite well lately, just having a small set back, and will just have to “get back in gear” and move on again. Thanks

You had that “powerlessness” beaten into you as a child by the P-sib, and your parents whose duty DUTY it was to protect you did not, so you got lots of messages, that you were weak, powerless, worthless and should feel guilty because you were no good and that you were not allowed to set boundaries”hey, this is great if you are an oxen bound for a life of servitude in front of a wagon or plow, but for a human being it is pretty miserable—BUT YOU CAN REVOLT, YOU CAN STAND UP, YOU CAN REBEL AGAINST THESE ENSLAVING THOUGHTS—-throw off the chains my friend! ((BIG HUGS)

Thanks, OxD. I’m working on it. The first thing is to say what I need to say in all circumstances and forget worrying about outcomes or what people might feel. My biggest thing is not hurting others. Tonight at my friend’s house (we’ve known each other since very early childhood) we discussed guilt and blame. She assesses her part in anything that happens but doesn’t usually feel guilt or self-blame. Seldom, if ever! Even when she is a bitch!

Wow, is this different than how I feel and think. She agrees that growing up being blamed and guilted made me this way, but that also even as a very young girl I was always worried about other people’s feelings and prone to taking on guilt and blame. Oh, and I cry a lot at things, some understandable to her (family things) but some not – like seeing dead animals. It makes her sad but it makes me get teary-eyed.

Buzibee I like your term about your mind grinding away at what was happening to you. I find that I do this with traumatic experiences, as well. But I don’t know your story. Will you share a bit of it?

Oh, and one other thing: my youngest, who did not grow up in abuse, said today as we passed homeless people asking for change downtown that she should never work there, because all her money would be going to them or she would feel “terribly guilty.” And she was feeling guilty today, passing them by without change to give.

Yet, her sister is not like that, not at all.

Do you suppose there is a gene associated with conscience or excessive guilt? Because she seems to have it, as I do, without the same life experiences that would lead her to feel that way.

Ox Drover


People are not JUST “individuals” but are also part of a specific family group or “herd”—different species have different evolutionary and genetic things that have helped them survive as a species. Prey animals as a general rule live in herds or in colonies (buffalo, cattle, horses, prairie dog towns etc) but some species live in family groups, singly or a nuclear family, mother and babies, until the babies are able
to go out on their own.

Humans are “herd” animals and we generally prefer to live in groups (neighborhoods, tribes, extended families) though there are of course individuals who prefer to live solitary lives.

How any “herd” gets along with each other, who is the leader, who is the follower, and how they socialize, breed, find food, shelter, etc. and defend each other is somewhat genetic, and somewhat trained as we grow up.

Elephant herds are a single older female leader, she is THE one in charge but she is a benign dictator, and will offer her life in defense of the herd. Babies are allowed to nurse from any lactating cow in the herd, adolescent females act as baby sitters, and guides to the younger babies. Males are thrown out of the herd to live essentially solitary lives at maturity, only returning to the cows to breed.

How much of this is genetic? I would think a great deal as if the members (individuals) in the herd did not interact this way the evolutionary benefit wouldn’t be there.

We already know that there are genes as well as enfironment (learning etc) that influence the Ps and Ns of this world, and I have no doubt that there is a group of “subservience” genes as well. Look at certain breeds of dogs that tend to be very “subservient” and other breeds that are “aggressive”—of course training (i.e. environment) can to some degree make a subservient breed more aggressive or vice versa, but in GENERAL members of a breed of dogs (or any animal) that is generally more aggressive or less aggressive, will be pretty much “right on”—so I have little doubt that it holds true with people as well. Our biological nature should not be discounted just because we can THINK more than animals can.

Because people don’t “look” different like breeds of dogs and in general our “pedigrees” are not as well kept or known, you can’t tell by looking at a person (always) whether he is a Pit bull or a Beagle—-there are some behavioral “clues” with “body language” etc. as to whether a person is more or less aggressive, but these are not usuallly as obvious as they would be in a dog who might be barking, baring his teeth, etc. or cowering on the ground wagging their tails.

Dogs, as a general rule, will use aggression or violence against another dog UNTIL the other dog submits, and then STOP attacking when the subservient dog gives up, rolls over and exposes its throat and belly.

In a herd of cattle, there is usually only one bull, but if there are more the bulls will continually spar, and a young bull growing up in a pasture with his father will keep trying to establish dominance and never give up completely, he will keep trying to “take over” as the BIG bull.

The cows have a dominance ladder, the top cow, the one under her, and so on down to the last poor cow who is subservient to everyone. The bull doesn’t generally interfeer with this cow dominance, but they will generally give way to his greater size etc.

There will seldom be a “fight” among the cows for a lower cow to rise up in status UNLESS the top cow is taken out of the herd or dies. Then there will be a day or two of sparring, or even fighting, until the next “top cow” is decided upon and then no more sparring. With cattle, generally it is NOT like the elephant cow who will sacrifice her life for the herd or any member of it, but more a “I get the best feed first” dominance.

What does all this have to do with humans or Psychopaths? Well, I had an abusive cow once. She was bigger and more aggressive than the rest of the cows and she was DOMINANT. But she was mean with her dominance and status and would hook a horn in another cow in a mean way just BECAUSE SHE COULD, and after a while of this, the rest of the cows all got tired of her abuse and three of them took her on all at once and beat the snot out of her. I actually thought they were going to kill her as I watched the fight. In the end, she fled their attack, and after that, lived only on the fringes of the herd, essentially driven off (If I hadn’t had fences to contain her) She had no friends, and would play with her calf every year as that was the only animal in the herd that would associate with her. My husband actually felt sorry for her and wanted to buy her a companion animal. (It wouldn’t have worked)

Interestingly enough, this cow was a “kicker” and because we handled our animals, taught them to lead, and in some cases, taught them to pull wagons,we interacted with our cattle more than most beef cattle breeders so picked up on various things that wouldn’t have even been noticed in most farms. But EVERY one except one of her ten calves were also KICKERS. They would nail you when you least expected it. They were all “hard headed” and difficult to train to lead. OUt of the hundreds of calves I have taught to lead on a halter, ONLY hers were kickers on a consistent basis, and they never gave up this trait, so most if not all of her offspring ended up at the butchers as I will not tolerate consistently dangerous large animals on my farm. Large animals can hurt you by accident but I won’t have one that TRIES to hurt you on a consistent basis.

By the time I had cattle that I had had for 4-5-6 generations, I knew which “families” of cattle (mother, daughter, granddaughter etc) were “gentle” and which were not. I eliminated the females that were aggressive with me, or aggressive within the herd from my breeding stock.

Within the larger “herd” I could also see the “family relationships” that extended over generations. At night when they lay down to rest, the “families” would be closer together, they would groom each other more, etc. So it was a kind of microcosim of a group of families in a larger community (herd) and I began to observe in earnest. It was amazing to me how it mirrored human families and communities. Of course most males were either castrated (which effectively made them act more as cows) or butchered, with all intact males sold at puberty…but I became fascinated by the interactions and the GENETICS.

I also watched the learning of the calves about WHAT was to be avoided as dangerous. They watched the older cows and their older sibs to see what to run from, or what to attack. My breed of cattle (Scottish Highlands) has a very aggressive tendency to predators and even young calves will attack harassing dogs, and the entire herd will come to the defense of a calf in distress, but they are generally very gentle otherwise—with some exceptions. While they accepted me as “alpha” to them, even I gave way to instinct when a calf was in distress or newly born.

Looking at families, and taking a biological theory, I think there are definitely genetics at play. Looking at families over multiple generations and the roles that each plays, and the similarities and the differences in them, I think there are definitely genetics at play in aggression, in subservience, in bonding, in protecting the young, in training the young.

In training dogs I don’t punish the pups by hiting them (which they don’t understand) but I show my teeth and GROWL at them, or if they are really definant, I shake their ruff and growl (just like their mother would train them) and if they are VERY bad, I will BITE them on the ear and roll them over on their backs until they submit. (I admit this is “crazy” to see a full grown woman down on her hands and knees growlilng at a pup! LOL) but it is back to biology.

I’m reading a book now on family role theory (most of which is outdated and ascribes schitzrophrenia to an over attachment to the mother (and we know now that it is geneticly caused) but there ARE ascribed “roles” in our family and just as the cows in the herds and the dogs in the packs stay in their “niche role” within that “family” and “community” we tend to stay in our assigned “role” within the family.

I do agree that a family is an emotional UNIT, just as with animals. Breaking OUT of that role that you have been assigned by GENETICS AND LEARNING is difficult. I am working to do so myself. I’m not sure I will EVER totally succeed, but I do know one thing, I do NOT intend to continue to allow myself to lie down and let the Psychopaths inside the family or outside the family abuse me.

I look back and remember the day that the three subservient cows rose up against the “psychopath” cow and drove her out of the herd, and I wonder just what made them finally come to the point that they had “had enough” of her abuse and weren’t going to take any more. I know for a fact that it was totally “out of character” for cows for the three of them to cooperate to beat her to a stand still, but they managed to do so.

So I figure if a cow can do it, I CAN DO IT. LOL I will train myself to NOT feel guilty for standing up for myself, and I will train myself that it is NOT my “shame” because of the situation. I will BREAK the cycle and become FREE.

I really liked that post, OxD. Think that genetics does factor in, because my bio mom who did not raise me is a lot like me and my youngest is a lot like both of us – very nurturing and caring towards other people, very headstrong about what she wants to achieve, but ultimately extremely giving and open. She’s also much older than her actual years, in terms of intuition and innate understanding of people, situations, life. (Also hates all that teenage stuff that’s popular and blazes her own trail of cultural likes and dislikes — fine by me!)

So what is the draw of people like US, who I wouldn’t call subservient but I definitely would call evolved and fully conscious (with all the good and bad that entails) to people who are P’s and N’s? Is it the trust factor? Is it that they hate us, because we represent all they lack?

You’d think, based on your “herd” analogy, that our packs would be totally separate, never to engage one another at all, because there’s so little mutual understanding and resonance.


Here is a comment that I would like to make
about Josef Fritzl and his wife Rosemarie …

Clearly that “person” (and one has to stretch the
definition of the word “person” in order to apply
it to that creature) known to the world as Josef
Fritzl was / is the DEVIL-INCARNATE —- AND
he should burn in h*ll for all of eternity for his evil.

In addition, it also needs to be stated that no person
on earth should allow themselves be fooled for
even one moment by the lies of “I didn’t know”
that are currently being claimed by that lying
and equally evil wife of this evil DEVIL!!!

That vile, evil, perverted, disgusting, devil
b**tch of a wife of that MONSTER KNEW!!


She KNEW the whole time (or at least had
literally no excuse whatsoever to have not
at least ’suspected’ something was amiss!!!)

She is a LIAR and she must think the entire world is
as perverted as both she and her husband are and
that by coming up with that ridiculous and flimsy
excuse that she can then convince the rest of
the world to then respond to her own complicity
the same way she chose to respond to that of
her husband’s evil — by ‘turning a blind eye’.

BOTH of them are utter DEVILS and one
cannot help but to hope that they both burn
in h*ll for all of eternity for their evil acts!!!!

She expects anyone on this planet who has even
half-a-brain-stem to believe for even one fraction
of a moment that she didn’t know anything at all?!?!

Give me a break!!!

For crying out loud–unless this woman is Helen
Keller –she has NO EXCUSE at all to not have
known (or at least ‘suspected’) something strange
and conspiratorial was going on regarding her
daughter’s whereabouts and situation and that the
husband’s stories were just far too incredulous
and absolutely made no sense in the least bit!!!

After all — think about it — daughter runs away as a
very young teen; daughter mysteriously disappears
at the age of 18 (an age when she can both make
her own decisions and choose to get away from
her father and even bring charges against him); the
(convicted-rapist/arsonist) father gets a letter from
daughter 1 month after her disappearance which
ridiculously claims she has joined a cult and does
not want to have any contact with the family ”“ yet
amazingly then later chooses (for 3 years in a row)
to simply leave 3 of her newborn babies on the
doorstep of very home that she tried to run away
from at least 2 X’s before and is “allegedly thought”
to have finally left in order to join some sort of
“phantom” cult (a “cult” which, unlike every other
cult, just somehow, seemingly has no desire to try
to indoctrinate the youth from birth, but rather it
simply allows it’s members to select a home –one
which in fact, is both not a part of the cult AND is
the very home from which the member ran in order
to join the cult —to raise their babies and kids of
the cult members) –ALL THE WHILE ”“ the father
forbids ANYONE to ever for ANY REASON dare to
go ANYWHERE NEAR the mysterious basement
(which he always keeps locked, disappears to for
hours and days on end; has ’unseen’ bathroom
equipment installed; and has a cement-barricaded
door installed which both has a security-code and
which was so complicated it needed inspection
by local government authorities in order to install).

Just 2 years before the “discovery” of what this
monster (and his devil wife via her complicity of
silence) did to their poor child ”“ another young girl,
and former kidnap victim, was also found in Austria.

It was discovered that the other young kidnap /
rape victim had disappeared 8 years earlier and
had been held in a basement / dungeon where
she had been repeatedly raped the entire time
by the individual who had also kidnapped her.

Now —- even if the public was expected to
simply throw all common sense to the wind
and accept this monster’s devil-wife’s excuse
that she “didn’t know”, say, in the beginning ”
it still stands to reason that after hearing about
the case of the other young girl 2 years earlier
—– this creep’s equally creepy wife would
have said something to herself like, say ”

—”Hmmm ” a young girl who disappeared 8 years
ago, out of no where, has been discovered
to have been held in a basement the entire
time and while there she was repeatedly
raped by the person who trapped her there.

Hmmm ” my daughter, who repeatedly tried
to run away from my convicted-rapist husband
as a child has also mysteriously disappeared
”“ and ”“ my convicted-rapist husband is
always coming across both ’letters’ and
’grandchildren’ that were allegedly left
by my daughter (who has vanished
without a trace) — and ”“ meanwhile
my convicted-rapist husband also
has a mysterious basement that he
keeps under lock and key and never
allows anyone to come near — ever.

Hmmm ” now I cannot help but to wonder
if that convicted-rapist husband I married
just may have had something to do with
the disappearance of our daughter ”“ and
— the appearance of all these grandkids
and letters ”“ and I also can’t help but to
wonder if that mystery-basement room
of his would, in some way / in any way,
be connected somehow to our child’s
disappearance and / or the mysterious
appearance of all of these grandchildren.—”

Yes ”“ one would think that ”“ even if this woman
could have claimed ’ignorance’ earlier ”“ (a lie
which, again, no one with any common sense
should ever consider buying into) ”“ once the
discovery was made of a similar situation 2
years earlier ”“ she then had NO excuse to not
have at least been suspicious of something
about her convicted-rapist husband and his
ever-so-mysterious hidden basement room.

That vicious devil simply did not care at all about
her own daughter ”“ or — she simply cared more
about her own creature-comforts and keeping up
with her middle-class appearances than she did
about the torture being done to her own child.



She is clearly as much of a
pervert and devil as is he!!

Would anyone even be remotely surprised
if further investigation later revealed that
’Rosemarie Fritzl’ (who is actually trying to
get the world to see her as a co-victim of
her daughter’s horrific nightmare of a life)
was actually just another ’Rosemary West’
(a woman whose husband also originally ”“
and falsely ”“ claimed that she had nothing
to do with his unbelievably evil sex crimes)?

What kind of a woman, after all, chooses to marry
(or remained married to) a man who had already
committed and also been convicted of previously
raping another woman and has shown absolutely
no remorse about any of it whatsoever in the least.

SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!!,25197,23626912-2703,00.html,1518,550685,00.html,25197,23626912-2703,00.html,,30200-1314750,00.html,,30200-1314849,00.html,25197,23619178-2703,00.html,21985,23631358-663,00.html

Ox Drover


When you lookk at the P-gene in “evolution” in a sort of survival mode, think who is going to survive in a situation where there are limited resources…the P of course.

It is only recently in THIS country that people have had enough food to eat 12 months out of the year unless they were very rich. In some areas now there is limited food, and/or resources, so who gets the resources? The toughest meantest guy on the block—the P. He takes it from the weaker. He uses force, violence or trickery to get what he wants without any conscience.

So from an evolutionary standpoint, the P gene is a survival gene where resources are limited. WE on the other hand, because we are no longer looking out for “predators” in the forms of wolves and tigers, don’t listen to our instincts that warn us that a predator is among us—because he LOOKS and acts (at first) like a non-predator until he has us trapped.

Wolves don’t prey on tigers, or on each other, they prey on non-predators, ditto with the Ps. Just like a wolf would be foolish to tackle a tiger, because he might be more likely to get hurt, a psychopath preys on the more “submissive” individual, though, sometimes Ps do team-up to work together for a con or a robbery etc. but there is definitely no loyalty to their partners, that’s why the police get people to “roll over” on their partners in crime.

Ox Drover

I just read a news article about this man and his crime in the his country, the rape, kidnapping, etc. will get him 15 years in prison (9 less than he held his daughter prisoner) but they are thinking about adding another charge because his failing to act might/probably caused the death of one of her babies–that would be 20 years for “murder”–

The article said that he was “unemotional” as he was charged. Also that he chose the children he sired on his daughter to go live “upstairs” on the basis of who was “not a crybaby”–

How psychopathic is all that? WOW! Not that there was any doubt, but goodness, that “sounds so P” to me.

The article also said that the wife of Josef, Elizabeth, and all the children except the 19 yr old who is seriously ill met and that it “went well”—

And I think I have problems…sort of makes me think just how fortunate I am…how fortunate most of us are compared to the victims that make the international and national news.

I think sometimes because the pain does “fill us up” totally, I forget in the grand scheme of things just how well off I am. I dont have any children by a P to have to share custody with, I don’t have to live in a shelter, they didn’t kill me, and I do have some family that loves and respects me, and several wonderful friends and supporters. I think sometimes I dwell on the negative aspects, instead of the more positive one, specifically that I am FREE of them.


well…I also read in one of the interviews that “Fritzl obsessively watches TV reports…” it reminds me of those cases described in “without conscience” when psychopaths wanted to see their videotaped interviews “how did I do? how did I do? Can I see a picture? Can I see a video?”

He has 1.5 millions in loans…classics…they never pay back their loans.

my ex P was obsessed with cameras…she had millions and millions of her pictures, she just loved to watch them over and over again.

my heart and prayers with Elizabeth and her children…for whatever reason this story is stuck in my head for the past 3 days giving me a bad headache…Every time I read the news I start having tears in my eyes…What a monstrous creature…

truly only people who dealt with P once can understand each other…Everyone else is just saying “Oh just move on, foget about it”


I now understand and accept that his wife, Rosemary, didn’t have a clue about what was going on.

I know what it is to be deluded by a perverse man. It was not for a long time in my case, fortunately, but it lasted 16 months and he was able to deceive my family, friends and specially myself who used to attribute preciousness to his misteries, until I found out all at once who he really is.

If I didn’t have the chance to get into his computer and discover the truth I would still be living under constant anxiety and I would probably marry him and live my life with him, believing that he is that nice person he tells me he is – although he acts in a strange way and denies all my intuitions (discretly destroying my self-esteem) – we don’t usually get suspicious about whom we believe to be the love of our lives… That’s what sociopaths do, they cover their strange behaviour with sweet words and as they have no remorse they tell as many lies as necessary to build a good image of themselves.

Their ability to manipulate is over developed, only a specialist (very often not even specialists) or a victim knows how destructive they can be. In the Fritzl case, not only for the family in the dungeon, but it might have been a huge shock to the wife and “grandchildren” who lived with him upstairs.
Of course Fritzl is in a much worst stage of psychopathy than the cases we read about here and our own experience, but it’s the same kind of people: manipulative liars who lack in remorse and empathy for others, usually driven by sex and money.

It’s desperating to try to imagine what they went through inside that dungeon, I only wish they still have hope to live apart from this tragedy in the future.

LilOrphan, I was shocked when I read your story. I’m deeply sorry for such horrible things you were submitted to and what I wish for all of us, who now know that such cruelty is possible is the ability to build new lives apart from these monsters.

I’m very glad that this website exists and I think it’s natural that we, victims of perverse people, try to understand our cases – although we will never understand completely what’s in the mind of such people – through other cases.

Ox Drover

No, I didn’t mean to minmize what any of us have been through either, it is just the old “I cried because I had no shoes until I saw a man without any feet.”

In reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s search for meaning” which was a look at the concentration camps of WWII from the emotional standpoint of one who was there, not just the physical pain and torture, I realized that ALL pain is 100%, whether it is big or little, it is 100% and fills us up.

Elizabeth’s pain went on for TWO decades and a half. That is almost as “unfathonable” as the Nazi camps. I have no doubt that her mother might have suspected something was amiss, but at the same time, we have to realize that a man who could keep his daughter there would also have abused his wife as well and that she had to have been beaten down as much as Elizabeth…in order to survive. She was no doubt also in the FOG as well, probably Stockholm syndrome etc. Even if she “knew” 100%, I doubt that she was a willing participant.

My feeling fortunate compared to Elizabeth and her family is that my torture, while 100% pain for me, didn’t result in 24 years of incarceration in a dungeon, 7 births without any medical help, malnutrition, etc etc etc. I pray for that woman and her family, her children.

There is nothing that can be done to Josef that he will not ENJOY, even the attention he gets as such a monster. Personally there are a few instances when I think the inquisition should be brought back complete with all the instruments of torture, and ending with death by buring at the stake. There is no earthly “justice” that is sufficient to punish him for what he did. There is no way to make him suffer as she did..but that is just my anger talking. I can’t let it make me bitter inside because then Josef would have not only hurt his daughter but reached out across the ocean and installed bitterness in my heart.

We are going to be okay, that is the thing I am grateful for. Elizabeth has been robbed of so much it will be very difficult for her to ever have a “normal” life, even if it is possible from here on.

It is one act to accept your own abuse- a whole different universe to accept it on behalf of your children.

THAT woman knew—I have been very close to a similar situation,the hostages walked in and out daily, the motehr knew, she knew so much she ran off and came back.

We can’t excuse it. We can’texcuse when we hurt ourselves either or else we do it again.

Her crime is different, and is due leniency BUT should be prosecuted. Women need to know LOUD and CLEAR they are responsible too and will go to jail too. I suspect the cycleof abuse and malignant optimism would break faster.

HAH!!! this psychopath is revealing himself BY THE BOOK … Today he has spoken (May7th): “I am not a monster” and went on to imply that he was a HERO because, “I could have killed them all and no one would have known” … and he’s expressing HIS UPSET by what the world is saying??? How arrogant is THAT??? sheesh … he ADMITS to the crime but STILL does not think he is wrong!?!?!?! The world is learning a LOT from this case.

Just like Psychopaths only fear punishment (say the death penalty) …..normal folks well….we do the same.

I am sorry- but I suspect most people excuse a lot they’d act on IF THEY were culpable.

And being a Catholic, I am well aware of types of sin– omission, comission etc. But Catholics also believe that we have to be completly cognizant of what is going on etc. and willing to commit a mortal sin for example.

THAT said- we still classify sins and have punishments for them— I think she must go to trial and that it would help the cause of all involved in these psycopathic situations.



CellStemCell: I’m following the Fritzl story on the Sky News website.,,30200-1315233,00.html?&lid=NEWS_TAB_JOSEF_FRITZL_IM_NO_MONSTER&lpos=TABCONTENT

They update the news about him the minute it is verified.

Ox Drover

Unfortunately, though, his “by the book” revelation of himself as a psychopath does make the “general public” think that ALL psychopaths have someone in the basement, or are serial killers etc. rather than the fact that the “nice guy” next door, or their doctor, or teacher, etc could be a psychopath and still not be a killer or a kidnapper.

In this situation, I think what he did is WORSE than murder, he is WORSE than Amy’s X who killed the children to punish her. At least the children didn’t suffer like those children suffered, like Elizabeth suffered a living hell in a dungeon for 2 1/2 decades. Amy’s children are safe, they are not in pain, they are no longer scared–that is some consolation, compared to Elizabeth’s ordeal. None of it is good of course, all is horrible, but death is not worse than what Josef did.

It infuriates me that his “punishment” will in no way fit his CRIME…burning at the stake wouldn’t be ENOUGH punishment for this man…

EVen if his wife did know (and at this point I can’t judge her knowledge or lack of knowledge) I don’t think that punishment or making an “example” out of her UNLESS she was a WILLING participant, and even then, the Stockholm syndrome can make people do some awful things…right now, my feelings for her is that she is most likely a victim too, trapped by his abuse of her to accept or not questiion anything.

Look at all those women in that cult here in the US where they had multiple wives, teenaged wives married to old men by force, etc. Those mothers “willingly” participated in all that, gave their daughters without a fight, thinking they were doing the “right” thing, and yet knowing it was “illegal”—people indoctornated into such cults, whether it is a few people or a lot of people lose their autonomy, lose their ability to make judgments. Frankly, there but for the Grace of God go I.

I thought I was “above”being brainwashed, and my thinking disorted, and yet, I know that I fell into the FOG just like the “dumbest” of them….I suffered from INFORMED DENIAL. Aloha, that is SUCH a GREAT term, it describes my state of mind in two words. Maybe that is where Josef’s wife was, maybe she was just in the FOG and didn’t know, but to punish her either way I don’t think will prevent any other woman doing this, or help her either. Whatever part she played in this, that woman has also suffered an incredible amount of abuse, to punish her further I think (at least, right this minute, I think LOL) would not be productive.

Agree that his “punishment” is really lenient, given the crime. It seems crazy. The woman needs help, obviously, and I’m somewhat in the middle when it comes to what should be done with her. On the one hand, how could she just not know? On the other, well, as this board has shown time and time again, it is not only possible, but probable to be caught in the land of “I want to believe.”

So from an evolutionary standpoint, the P gene is a survival gene where resources are limited. WE on the other hand, because we are no longer looking out for “predators” in the forms of wolves and tigers, don’t listen to our instincts that warn us that a predator is among us—because he LOOKS and acts (at first) like a non-predator until he has us trapped.

Survival instinct. The only way I’ve ever spent much time thinking about that instinct is in my lack of it. Seriously. You know how they say everyone has a very strong one? I’ve always thought mine rather weak, and see that also in my youngest. We’re very much “go with the flow” people who accept life on life’s terms, rather than trying to fight the current.

She’s a little less like that, but I still see it. We often joke about the various scenarios in which we might find ourselves where, instead of fighting, we’d just be like — “here’s my purse” or whatever, and move along.

I’ve been rather absent from here lately. Am sleeping and taking care of me, plus trying to get caught-up on work. It’s the anniversary week of a good friend’s death, so that has preoccupied life and made it more challenging. Overall, things are very good and I plan on them staying that way. But I love to come here still and read….give encouragement when needed, ask questions. This is a great site and you all offer so much insight.

Ox Drover

Since we don’t know the evidence, or the details of the entire crime, what Josef’s wife knew or didn’t know, really all we are doing is speculating about whether she “knew” or not, and if so, how much. How much did she participate, etc?

Since I have no way to know for sure what is in her mind, heart and intentions I’ll reserve judgment on her for now. Since there is little to NO doubt that he did what he did, it is another story entirely. Right now my anger would like revenge on him, starting with pulling his finger nails out one at a time, then his toe nails….but that is not good for ME to think this way. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord” and I strongly believe that He will take vengence on those that hurt others…and I trust that His vengence is going to be worse than anything I could even imagine. All we can seek here is justice, and Josef will get some of that, though as long as he gets attention, he may actually like it.

I have no doubt that he knew what he was doing was “wrong” but he felt “entitled and Right”–and I would bet he still does. He’s a psychopath, he has no conscience. No shame.

I’m not even sure that psychopaths fear punishment, even the death penalty too much. I sincerely doubt that my P-son fears prison, he knows what it is, has adjusted to it, and gets lots of narcissistic supply doing his cons inside the wall and living in a fantasy of what he will do when he gets out. He’s as “happy” as a psychopath can get I think.

Yes, fry this guy.

But what about the ostensibley normal folks who could do something, but don’t?

Ox Drover

WEll, I wish I could answer that question HWS with something profound, but about all I can think of to say is “life ain’t fair”— I dont’ know if you remember the episode that happened I think in Chicago years ago a woman named Kitty Genovese (spelling may be wrong) was walking down the street and some perv killed her, stabbed her to death, beat her, and like 45 or so people watched and DID NOTHING, didn’t even call the police. Some folks actually closed their windows so they wouldn’t have to hear her dying screams.

It caused a big deal on the national news about why people wouldn’t help her. Studies were done about why etc. Apparently if you are among strangers and need help (like you are being attacked) the MORE people around the LESS likely you are to get help….DUH? Well, apparently each person sort of freezes and thinks that it is someone else going to do it…and it ends up no one does anything.

The old “it’s not my yob” thing.

In thinking about all this, when 8 or 10 lions attack a herd of 1000 wildebeasts, if the animals would turn TOGETHER and attack the lions they could easily over come the lions with their horns and hooves, but instead they run, each animal for himself. As soon as the lions have made the kill, the other 999 animals stop running and go back to grazing, unconcerned for their fellow animal being torn apart. I guess sort of “well, it wasn’t ME” sort of thinking.

Society tells us to not make waves, to not pry or intrude in other people’s business etc. so even if you suspect “something odd” going on next door, you are probably not going to call the police, and even ifyou did, chances are that unless there is blood on the kitchen floor when they walk in they aren’t going to do any investigation on suspicion of “something odd” at the neighbors.

Just as we who are more intimately acquainted with Ps do, we look at the RED FLAGS in retrospect, but we didnt DO anything at the time we saw them waving in the hurricaines of our lives, and we were CLOSE enough that we should and could have.

There was a time when I was pretty sure I knew what I WOULD DO under any given situation—I thought there was pretty much a black vs white right and wrong situation. Now, I am seeing that I am not nearly as smart as I thought I was, and don’t know the right answer, heck–half the time I don’t even know the QUESTIONS, much less the right answers, but I am becoming much more empathetic of people who are victims, even ones who have become “volunteer” victims, than I ever was before. Again, “There, but for the Grace of God, go I”

There is always enough blame to “go around” in a situation like this–someone who knew something and didn’t do anything, someone who suspected, etc. but the CHIEF blame rests on Josef, the psychopath. Josef’s wife would have to have been living with that man >42 years if she is Elizabeth’s mother, and I can only imagine how he has brow beaten her, even if he never laid a hand on her, and I sincerely doubt that he was non-violent with her if he did this to Elizabeth. She’s probably at least my age (early 60s) and I imagine a pathetic shell of a person, the person she could have been if not for Josef. It’s a sad and tragic situation.


I am puzzled that he is facing 15 years in prison. Damn he kept his daughter 24 years in prison, he should get at least 24 years and not 15. it is so unfair.

Ox Drover

I agree with you, I don’t think the potential sentence is repsresentative to what he did in any way, shape or form. Even for an “ordinary” kidnapping it wouldn’t in my opinion be “enough” However, given his age, it is effectively a “life” sentence.

It seems that Austria is very lenient with sex crimes. As a previous post here mentioned he was a CONVICTED sex offender, not just a suspect: convicted and time served… but after 10 years the Austrian authorities destroy the records. Preposterous!!

Human captivity, as much as it’s an abomination to humanity it is not new. “Repunzel, Repunzel, let down your golden hair” … “Hansel & Gretel” … fairy tales that depict this bizarre side of human behaviour; captivity, abandonment, cruelty, etc. It also seems that many of these atrocities are more common in European countries. The Brothers Grimm who wrote many of these ‘fairy tales’ were German, the Holocaust, as we know, was Germany.

As recently as 2006 another young girl was discovered after being in captivity as a sex slave for 8 years, albeit, not her father but captivity nonetheless … and that was also in Austria!!! What is WRONG with these nations???? These are civilised countries?????? In his early years as a child, Fritzl was abused and badly beaten on a DAILY basis by his single-parent mother during the end of W.War2 and he was also often witness to Russian soldiers brutally raping women and children. No wonder he has no empathy and no wonder he has exuded this extreme control and disregard for woman as valuable human beings. Let me say this, clearly: THIS BY NO MEANS EXCUSES HIM from this behaviour. NOT AT ALL!! There have been MANY people who have been exposed to atrocities but have not acted out like Fritzl did.

The 15 years sentence will most likely be just the beginning of a list of offences. If the hospitalised daughter dies, he’s on a murder charge. This young girl is in an induced coma while doctors try and find a way to treat her. At this point they are doubtful of her recovery because she has massive organ failure. He’s already on a murder charge for the baby he incinerated that died shortly after birth. No intended sentence has been mentioned yet for that. He is also a suspect for a murdered girl who was found in a river near his home in the 80’s. I think the authorities are so shocked at the magnitude of this crime that they really don’t know what to do just yet. Their priority is to revive the comatose girl and to protect the family from the media and photographers. Not only is this the crime of the centuary, the mentality and cruelty exuded over a persons own flesh and blood is even worse than the Holocaust … Hitler had no emotional attachment to the people he killed, albeit millions. Fritzl did this to his own flesh, every day, up close and personal and for such an incredibly long period of time.

Austria’s government and police have a LOT to answer for with this considering that this is the 2nd such crime in that country in just two years!!! I have posted comments on the Sky News blog pages suggesting that the Austrian government form a nationwide “crackdown” campaign and inspect EVERY building throughout the country that has a bunker. These bunkers are VERY common there and what better place to live out your sick fantasies than in your own basement where you can go undected as Fritzl did. The inspections should also be carried out on a REGULAR basis, at least every two years. Yes, it’s a massive exercise and yes it will cost the Austrian government a lot of money but hey, if the government cannot ‘police’ it’s people to a level of respectable acceptance then it must now do what it takes … no matter the cost. There can be no price put on the heads of Elisabeth, her children and the traumatic events of the lives they have been forced to live. Is this the impression the Austrian people want the world to have of them?? WAKE UP AUSTRIA and petition your government to ACT and stop this barbaric nonsense. Flush these psychopaths out… no one will object to such an inspection if they have nothing to hide.

Personally I think that Frizl should be made an absolute example to the rest of the humanity. Forget about human rights for this man … he is not human and does not deserve to be treated as such. A lethal injection is waaaay too humane for him. I think he should be put into his own dungeon, fed a minimal amount of food but mostly he should be given just enough oxygen to keep him alive and aware … a slow process, for as many years as possible, of asphyxiation… with webcams and live streaming SO THAT THE WORLD CAN WATCH HIM SUFFER as he dies … or alternatively, set him free in society and let US gather and deal with him. The dungeon punishment is better because as a free man in society, he won’t last longer than 5 seconds and in my opinion, that is too nice.

This story has a long way to go yet.


OxDrover – unfortunately those creatures tend to live for a long long time

Ox Drover

Sir Laurens van der Post, a South African who was in the Japanese prison camps in WWII, and wrote about the horrible treatement he and others received there, stayed in Java after the war to help in the process of cleaning up, and in the trials of his captors. This man did NOT have Stockholm Syndrome by any means, but he worked toward reconcilliation and forgiveness. His writings and the writings of Dr. Vikotr Frankl who was in the German POW camps during that same time, have greatly influenced my thinking on the aftermath of suffering, and what OUR thoughts ideally should be.

Yes, Josef is a monster, as are the guards and administrators of these camps were–for whatever reasons—Ps, or pressure, or “orders” or prior brutality as victims themselves–none of that excuses in any way the behavior, but if WE become so angry and feel “justified” in horrible inhumane “punishment” (vengence rather than Justice) then we become just like them.

THEY felt “justified” in treating other humans badly because the other humans “deserved” it. WE, can feel “justified” in pulling his fingernails out because his behavior “justified” and “deserved” it. My first reaction is to want to burn him at the stake because his behavior “justifies” horrible retrobution. My anger wants to “bring back the inquuisition” and all their manners of torture that they inflicted upon people with different religious view points because it was “justified” in their minds to torture and kill anyone with a different view on religion–or even a suspected different view.

But if we become angry and feel that WE have the right, or that WE should torture another human because WE believe it is “justified” are we not becoming just like them? Filled with disgust for another human being? Feeling superior to another human?

I am actually not against the death penalty, I feel that properly administered it is warranted BY LAW not by individuals, though I also feel strongly that I would not hesitate to kill in defense of my life.

While I hate what Josef did, and I feel that he deserves to be removed from society by LAW for his crimes against humanity. For me to sit here and wish all kinds of tortures on him only hurts ME, hardens and makes me feel emotions that are best not felt. Sure they are natural emotions, anger and hate and wish for revenge, but our Ps have also injured us, and it is n atural for us to want to punish them as well—I have layed awake many nights imagining my own punishments, but those emotions were negative and not good for ME. Josef will get “justice” by whatever forms that government uses, and hopefully, their laws will be reviewed form ore appropriate forms since he is a REPEAT offender.

Some have cried out for his wife to also be punished or punished as an “example” to others. I don’t know how much this poor woman knew, or how much she participated in Elizabeth’s captivity, but I think at worst she probably had Stockholm syndrome and to “punish” this woman for being in theFOG I think would not workk as a deterent to any o ther woman in the FOG with Stockholm and would serve no purpose to prevent any future crimes of this sort. The guilt that she must feel and the shame (assuming she is not also a P) must be more than punishment enough.

I too feel anger at Josef, and wish for horrible t hings done to him, but I am working on getting those feelings out of my heart, and while I think he deserves the FULL effects of the law,, whatever they are…I can only try not to let MY feelings of revulsion work negatively inside me.

It is like the “forgiveness” of my own Ps and what they did tome I think is important to ME–and “forgiveness” to me means only that I GET THE BITTERNESS OUT OF MY OWN HEART. It doesn’t mean that I am “trusting” with them, or have a “relationship” with them, because to do that would be foollish. I was raised and trained and told that “forgiveness” meant “pretending it didn’t happen” and that never seemed right in my eyes, even if I believed that was what “God” wanted me to do….well, I have a different view of God’s will now. I’ve read the Bible with different eyes, and quit believing the “interpretation” foisted on me by my enabling mother that in order to please God I had to “pretend it didn’t happen” and that unless I did that, I was bound for hell.

Our ideas of right and wrong, and religion, and love, that may be “twisted” by the way we were raised, I think, has prfound influence on what we believe about ourselves and how we should conduct our lives. In examining these early beliefs, I have found that some of the ones I held are NOT valid, and have substituted new beliefs and new thinking.

Prejudices, such as racial prejudices, are learned and if you were raised to believe that all people of another color are bad, and you never examine that belief, you will accept it as “true” whether it is or not. Unless you examine your own beliefs, one by one, and either validate or invalidate those beliefs, keep the good ones and toss the bad ones, you will be forever trapped in the beliefs that were passed on to you.

Some of us were taught error as “right” and it is up to us as adults to examine these beliefs and make changes where needed. In order to heal, I think we must grow, and validate our OWN TRUTHS not ones we were given as children or by the Ps.



The kind of a woman that could do this would be the kind of a woman tha twas a victim of a Sociopath.

It’s sick and twisted and as we do know… so is being involved with one, let alone married to a Sociopath.

I think this story could have happened anywhere to anyone- any one of us could have been the wife. (atleast, alot of us could- once you’re in the FOG, you’re in the fog.) The x-p in my life just didn’t have the resources, money or brains, to pull off a nightmare of THIS scope. He was clever, don’t get me wrong, but not this clever- his ego and sense of superiority frequently tripped him up. He was so busy posing as king of the world he’d leave a trail right to his self-awarded throne. If his mother hadn’t been a CONSTANT enabling check-writing force, he would have been just another dumbass criminal in jail 20 yrs ago.

He got brave and stupid with me and my daughter. He finally abused someone(s) who couldn’t be bought off by mommy’s magic checkbook. He victimized other women and children and businesses after I threw him out and before last week. Those victims didn’t have it in them to go after him. We weren’t backing down. He took a plea bargain for 6yrs in prison- because we were going to help convict him for realistically 30+yrs. He would have been looking at a max of 90 yrs, had it gone to trial.

I read an article about punishment right before the Fritzl story came out… the US LEADS the planet, far and away, with prisonable offenses and the prison terms thereof. 15yrs is nothing for what he has committed…if it IS all he gets, may he not live it out.

Ox Drover

WOW Glinda, Congratulations on getting at least legal “justice” in your case! I know it is not pay back by any means, but it is SOMETHING and more than most of us get! Good for you!!!! Whoopie, let’s throw a party, Glinda’s P is going to the big slammer!

You get the “Brave survivor of the week award!” Good for you!!!!!! ((((hugs)))))) 0–0 (those are handcuffs for your X) LOL

0-0 = handcuffs? OMG, I LOVE it! Thanks!!

And you’re right, it’s not equal payback- but it’s WAAAAY more than he thought he’d see- and proving a p wrong is worth more than just money! hehehe!

Just noticed he is now on the sex offender registry too… and labeled a predator. It’s such a feeling of relief. My daughter was a real trooper. She exhibited more strength and courage in the last 2 yrs than some people manage their entire lives. I’m very proud of her.

Ox Drover

This has been one of those weeks that everything I touch turns to POO–but some good things have happened too, I thought the coyotes got a 6-day old baby calf that has been missing for several days–mama is walking the fence and crying so I know she didn’t know where it was either. Well, I drove back from deliveriing donations to the community center where we are taking up things for the 15 families that are homeless due to last week’s tornadoes—our community is really turning out…whole farms were destroyed, so not just their homes, their livelyhoods, livestock etc….and there was my baby–I had walked the hills looking for her until I was so tired…and I decided to name her “Heidi” and laughed.

Then I saw your post that you had gotten some justice just before my son called 200 miles from home and said the car broke down on the road…and then I checked back, and you got a laugh out of my “handcuffs” and that cheered me up.

It is silly such little things that make me go up and down like a yo-yo sometimes, but I just have to keep my sense of humor, and realize that this is just LIFE, not disaster. That the Universe is not “out to get me”—that stuff happens and we just have to go with the flow, and “not sweat the small stuff, and remember it is all small stuff” (well unless you are dealing with a P) I try to keep a + attitude and to realize that even as bad as my P-situation was and yours, and Elizabeth’s etc. that we have all survived—some taking more hits than others, but come out alive. As long as we are alive there is room for growth. Sometimes we get “justice” and sometimes nothing, not even validation…but in the end if we live through it we can heal and grow.

All I have to do to know how fortunate I am is drive one mile, ONE mile, up the road and look at the foundations of the homes that are GONE, or to read the obits in the paper where the people lost their lives as well as their homes.

I am so thankful for being alive, for having the chance to heal, and getting SOME justice out of it all, and SOME vindication out of it all, and to BE ABLE TO LAUGH again at silly things, or share a joke with a friend.

Godspeed Glinda, I am really happy for you!


I wonder what is his defense thinking? He says that “he knew that he is hurting his daughter, and that he is doing a wrong thing”

doesn’t it mean in legal terms that he knew the difference between right and wrong? How is he going to plead insanity?

He says that “he wanted to have kids with his daughter”, are they going to say that “normal people do not want to have kids with their children and therefore he is insane”? is that their defense?

I am aware that he is a P anyway so you can toss his words into a trashcan, but nevertheless his lawyer says that tere is no proof that there was a “rape”…gosh, is he saying it was a mutual consent?

The insanity plea is normal in a case like this .. his lawyer will try ANYTHING at this point to absolve Fritzl of his crimes or to lessen the trauma and make the world feel sorry for him. It’s what lawyers do, regardless of whether they think the client is wrong or right. By virtue of Fritzl’s statement that he “KNEW he was hurting his daughter but continued”, has verified that he is not insane, as we all know. The world in general, thinks he is insane simply because the case is so far beyond even movie-makers imaginations. Now that there’s an insanity plea he will be professionally assessed and already the lawyer has said he will get 2nd and 3rd opinions if the diagnosis is not in accordance with the plea .. i.e. if the assessment comes out as “sane”. In our opinion, and I’m sure that of the Psychiatrists too, an assessment is not necessary because the behavioural patterns are quite obviously those of an extreme psychopath and I hope that the psychiatrists who do assess him are fully versed in Psychopathy.

Does anyone know if Dr Robert Hare has commented on Fritzl yet and if he’s going to be called in to do the PCL-R test on him. Dr Hare should do the assessment for sure. I can’t find any information on the net. Perhaps Dr Leedom or Dr Steve can answer this ?

What I’d like to know is if this lawyer was appointed by the courts or if he’s been privately hired. If he has been appointed he has to do his job, and that is to defend Fritzl. If he’s taken the case privately I wonder if he’s aware that no self-respecting person will ever hire him after this case AND that he won’t be getting paid for these services because Fritzl is deeply in debt (1.5mil Pounds). Like you said, “what is he thinking?” … high profile cases are ‘the ultimate’ for any lawyer but under these circumstances? Hmm, I wonder. Maybe someone should check if HE has a bunker with a dark, dirty secret at his own home. Birds of a feather.


here is the lawer thing: I never heard of Rudolf Mayer before. Now I know this name. Its like a self advertisement case. Even if he wont get paid he made his name.

Ox Drover

Maybe the Lawyer is a Narcissist or psychopath too, and took advantage of the situation—yea, Cell is right! Now we know his name, he is getting his “15 minutes of fame” and if he can get Josef off or a reduced sentence, he will have plenty of high paying Ps flocking to his door.

Though WE have little or no doubt what Josef is—most people will see this as “insane”—out of his mind, out of touch with reality and so not “responsible”—hasn’t anyoone ever heard the term “MEAN, EGOTISTICAL, SELFISH, SOB”? (MESS) That’s not very complex, and it doesn’t take a PhD to “diagnose” that—-would be interesting to get Dr. Hare’s take on this though.


interestingly I know who Rudolf Mayer is, but I do not know WHO is the prosecutor (“defending” Elizabeth”).

but…I guess well…lawyers are lawyers, its like doctors have to take care of the patient whether the patient is P or not regardless. Same for lawyer, P is his client…


I am extremely confused by some of the posts in this thread by those who claim both that they believe Fritzl to be a psychopath, and that he ought to be severely tortured in some creative way for what he has done. (Or that they wish he could be, but that it is wrong, etc.)

While I don’t find the wish for revenge, vengeance, punishment, or even pure sadism particularly perplexing, I am quite astonished that anyone who believes in the specific reality of the sociopath/psychopath, would find torturing one satisfying. Surely the sociopath is incapable of feeling regret, no matter how much pain or suffering he or she experiences, since the lack of susceptibility to fear-based condition is a cardinal trait of psychopathy, and also results in never learning to associate one’s own pain or suffering with the consequences of one’s actions?

Indeed, that anyone is suggesting that the wish to torture psychopaths “because they deserve it” means that if we indulged it we would become “like them” confuses me all the more — surely no psychopath has ever tortured someone “because they believed the victim deserved it,” but rather because the psychopath could get away with it (or thought they could) and felt like it.

Or do I not understand what is meant here by sociopath and psychopath?

Of course I’m not suggesting that he is “innocent” by virtue of “insanity” and so deserves some sort of leniency. Personally I think he should be taken out and hanged. But why go to the expense and trouble of torturing (or even incarcerating) someone who is thoroughly depraved on the most fundamental levels of consciousness? Where does the retributive satisfaction originate, except in a vain desire for the psychopath to be *just like his victims?*

Would you want to “pull out all the claws of a cat” one by one if it, for example, tortured your baby as if the baby were a mouse? What if this hypothetical ‘cat’ could think and reason, but was no more capable of identifying with “fellow creatures” than you might be capable of identifying with spiders?

An equally good (or bad) analogy: If a thinking machine (like Data from Star Trek; or better, his “evil” brother Lore), even one with simulated emotions, committed horrible crimes, would it be satisfying to torture the android in retaliation? If so, why so, and if not, why not? It seems obvious that if the term “psychopath” has any meaning whatsoever, then the psychopath is at least as alien on an ethical level as an intelligent cat or an emotion-capable android.

Or am I missing something obvious to experts in this field?

Ox Drover


I don’t think you are missing anything—it is just that I for one felt such anger at Josef for what he did. Yes, he did enjoy what he did is my thought, but I also believe that he believed that she “deserved” it–and it is in my opinion wrong to seek vengence against anyone–that doesn’t mean I don’t FEEL that way sometimes, even though I think it is wrong.

Anytime I think that someone tortures someone, say in a prisoner of war camp, the victims are viewed as “the enemy” and “deserving of torture” or ill treatment. It is the “us” vs. “them” and “they are not deserving” of human kindness.

It frustrates me when someone does something so EVIL and so horrible…and it is expressed as anger, a wish for vengence. I try my best not to dwell on these feelings or to act on them at all…because I DO think that vengence, revenge, etc. is not a good thing, it hurts the doer as much or more than the person who it is done to.

Justice, on the other hand is to let the LAW render justice. Somtimes in my opinon, the law doesn’t do an adequate job of it, but that doesn’t mean I should go out and seek vengence.

In anger it might be “satisfying” to seek vengence, but in the end, it would make me feel that I had acted just as a psychopath (sociopath/Antisocial Personality disorder) would.

Yes, I agree that the P is just as alien on an ethical level as a cat or a snake. They are what they are, they do what they do. The only difference is that the P “knows” what is right or wrong, but just doesn’t care. The cat or snake has no knowledge of “right” or “wrong” or empathy for the victim.

To me, the thing that makes us accountable as a human is the “knowledge of good and evil.” A person who is very young or confused or psychotic is not held accountable for their actions by the law because they do not know the difference between good and evil. The Psychopath does. He jjust doesn’t care.

I know that I was frustrated by the horror of this man’s behaviors and the lack of even potential justice that met the horror of the crime (in my opinon).

Good post, thanks for pointing this out.


He is a P. P must stay in jail. They are evil by definition, this is what they do. Therefore they must be in jail (or better yet…eliminated as much as possible)

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