By now everyone knows about the astounding case of incest, etc. in Austria. No doubt some are going to excuse Josef Fritzl by suggesting that he must be a mad man. Others (for instance here) will find fault with society.
These rationalisations are because for regular people the immensity of the crimes are blinding. But there are enough clues already that what Fritzl is is a psychopath and as such is responsible for his actions.
Take one small detail – the alleged role of drugs in the case.
Franz Polzer, the Austrian police chief leading the investigation, said Fritzl had given the impression, during protracted interrogations, that after 24 years he now actually believed the web of lies he had constructed to keep his incest a secret from his own family, the police and the public.
“Fritzl insisted that he chose Elisabeth as his favourite daughter, built the bunker just for her and felt that he had to lock her up because he was frightened that she was about to become involved with drugs.”
The reality was quite different. When his daughter was 18, Fritzl lured her into the elaborate cellar which he had built under his home during the Cold War in the late 1970s with the help of a government grant available for constructing domestic shelters against nuclear fall-out.
Police said he drugged his daughter with ether and handcuffed her to a wall in the cellar. During the first years he is alleged to have “kept her like an animal”.
Isn’t this classic? The kernel of truth is something to do with drugs, but see the evil inversion of the lie: he was trying to save her from drugs when in fact he used drugs against her.
(I wonder what thoughts readers have about Fritzl’s wife, Rosemarie, who police say was wholly ignorant of the matter. Asked why Mrs F was not being investigated, Colonel Polzer replied: “Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”)
I now understand and accept that his wife, Rosemary, didn’t have a clue about what was going on.
I know what it is to be deluded by a perverse man. It was not for a long time in my case, fortunately, but it lasted 16 months and he was able to deceive my family, friends and specially myself who used to attribute preciousness to his misteries, until I found out all at once who he really is.
If I didn’t have the chance to get into his computer and discover the truth I would still be living under constant anxiety and I would probably marry him and live my life with him, believing that he is that nice person he tells me he is – although he acts in a strange way and denies all my intuitions (discretly destroying my self-esteem) – we don’t usually get suspicious about whom we believe to be the love of our lives… That’s what sociopaths do, they cover their strange behaviour with sweet words and as they have no remorse they tell as many lies as necessary to build a good image of themselves.
Their ability to manipulate is over developed, only a specialist (very often not even specialists) or a victim knows how destructive they can be. In the Fritzl case, not only for the family in the dungeon, but it might have been a huge shock to the wife and “grandchildren” who lived with him upstairs.
Of course Fritzl is in a much worst stage of psychopathy than the cases we read about here and our own experience, but it’s the same kind of people: manipulative liars who lack in remorse and empathy for others, usually driven by sex and money.
It’s desperating to try to imagine what they went through inside that dungeon, I only wish they still have hope to live apart from this tragedy in the future.
LilOrphan, I was shocked when I read your story. I’m deeply sorry for such horrible things you were submitted to and what I wish for all of us, who now know that such cruelty is possible is the ability to build new lives apart from these monsters.
I’m very glad that this website exists and I think it’s natural that we, victims of perverse people, try to understand our cases – although we will never understand completely what’s in the mind of such people – through other cases.
No, I didn’t mean to minmize what any of us have been through either, it is just the old “I cried because I had no shoes until I saw a man without any feet.”
In reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s search for meaning” which was a look at the concentration camps of WWII from the emotional standpoint of one who was there, not just the physical pain and torture, I realized that ALL pain is 100%, whether it is big or little, it is 100% and fills us up.
Elizabeth’s pain went on for TWO decades and a half. That is almost as “unfathonable” as the Nazi camps. I have no doubt that her mother might have suspected something was amiss, but at the same time, we have to realize that a man who could keep his daughter there would also have abused his wife as well and that she had to have been beaten down as much as Elizabeth…in order to survive. She was no doubt also in the FOG as well, probably Stockholm syndrome etc. Even if she “knew” 100%, I doubt that she was a willing participant.
My feeling fortunate compared to Elizabeth and her family is that my torture, while 100% pain for me, didn’t result in 24 years of incarceration in a dungeon, 7 births without any medical help, malnutrition, etc etc etc. I pray for that woman and her family, her children.
There is nothing that can be done to Josef that he will not ENJOY, even the attention he gets as such a monster. Personally there are a few instances when I think the inquisition should be brought back complete with all the instruments of torture, and ending with death by buring at the stake. There is no earthly “justice” that is sufficient to punish him for what he did. There is no way to make him suffer as she did..but that is just my anger talking. I can’t let it make me bitter inside because then Josef would have not only hurt his daughter but reached out across the ocean and installed bitterness in my heart.
We are going to be okay, that is the thing I am grateful for. Elizabeth has been robbed of so much it will be very difficult for her to ever have a “normal” life, even if it is possible from here on.
HAH!!! this psychopath is revealing himself BY THE BOOK … Today he has spoken (May7th): “I am not a monster” and went on to imply that he was a HERO because, “I could have killed them all and no one would have known” … and he’s expressing HIS UPSET by what the world is saying??? How arrogant is THAT??? sheesh … he ADMITS to the crime but STILL does not think he is wrong!?!?!?! The world is learning a LOT from this case.
link?
It is one act to accept your own abuse- a whole different universe to accept it on behalf of your children.
THAT woman knew—I have been very close to a similar situation,the hostages walked in and out daily, the motehr knew, she knew so much she ran off and came back.
We can’t excuse it. We can’texcuse when we hurt ourselves either or else we do it again.
Her crime is different, and is due leniency BUT should be prosecuted. Women need to know LOUD and CLEAR they are responsible too and will go to jail too. I suspect the cycleof abuse and malignant optimism would break faster.
CellStemCell: I’m following the Fritzl story on the Sky News website.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1315233,00.html?&lid=NEWS_TAB_JOSEF_FRITZL_IM_NO_MONSTER&lpos=TABCONTENT
They update the news about him the minute it is verified.
Unfortunately, though, his “by the book” revelation of himself as a psychopath does make the “general public” think that ALL psychopaths have someone in the basement, or are serial killers etc. rather than the fact that the “nice guy” next door, or their doctor, or teacher, etc could be a psychopath and still not be a killer or a kidnapper.
In this situation, I think what he did is WORSE than murder, he is WORSE than Amy’s X who killed the children to punish her. At least the children didn’t suffer like those children suffered, like Elizabeth suffered a living hell in a dungeon for 2 1/2 decades. Amy’s children are safe, they are not in pain, they are no longer scared–that is some consolation, compared to Elizabeth’s ordeal. None of it is good of course, all is horrible, but death is not worse than what Josef did.
It infuriates me that his “punishment” will in no way fit his CRIME…burning at the stake wouldn’t be ENOUGH punishment for this man…
EVen if his wife did know (and at this point I can’t judge her knowledge or lack of knowledge) I don’t think that punishment or making an “example” out of her UNLESS she was a WILLING participant, and even then, the Stockholm syndrome can make people do some awful things…right now, my feelings for her is that she is most likely a victim too, trapped by his abuse of her to accept or not questiion anything.
Look at all those women in that cult here in the US where they had multiple wives, teenaged wives married to old men by force, etc. Those mothers “willingly” participated in all that, gave their daughters without a fight, thinking they were doing the “right” thing, and yet knowing it was “illegal”—people indoctornated into such cults, whether it is a few people or a lot of people lose their autonomy, lose their ability to make judgments. Frankly, there but for the Grace of God go I.
I thought I was “above”being brainwashed, and my thinking disorted, and yet, I know that I fell into the FOG just like the “dumbest” of them….I suffered from INFORMED DENIAL. Aloha, that is SUCH a GREAT term, it describes my state of mind in two words. Maybe that is where Josef’s wife was, maybe she was just in the FOG and didn’t know, but to punish her either way I don’t think will prevent any other woman doing this, or help her either. Whatever part she played in this, that woman has also suffered an incredible amount of abuse, to punish her further I think (at least, right this minute, I think LOL) would not be productive.
Agree that his “punishment” is really lenient, given the crime. It seems crazy. The woman needs help, obviously, and I’m somewhat in the middle when it comes to what should be done with her. On the one hand, how could she just not know? On the other, well, as this board has shown time and time again, it is not only possible, but probable to be caught in the land of “I want to believe.”
So from an evolutionary standpoint, the P gene is a survival gene where resources are limited. WE on the other hand, because we are no longer looking out for “predators” in the forms of wolves and tigers, don’t listen to our instincts that warn us that a predator is among us—because he LOOKS and acts (at first) like a non-predator until he has us trapped.
Survival instinct. The only way I’ve ever spent much time thinking about that instinct is in my lack of it. Seriously. You know how they say everyone has a very strong one? I’ve always thought mine rather weak, and see that also in my youngest. We’re very much “go with the flow” people who accept life on life’s terms, rather than trying to fight the current.
She’s a little less like that, but I still see it. We often joke about the various scenarios in which we might find ourselves where, instead of fighting, we’d just be like — “here’s my purse” or whatever, and move along.
I’ve been rather absent from here lately. Am sleeping and taking care of me, plus trying to get caught-up on work. It’s the anniversary week of a good friend’s death, so that has preoccupied life and made it more challenging. Overall, things are very good and I plan on them staying that way. But I love to come here still and read….give encouragement when needed, ask questions. This is a great site and you all offer so much insight.
Just like Psychopaths only fear punishment (say the death penalty) …..normal folks well….we do the same.
I am sorry- but I suspect most people excuse a lot they’d act on IF THEY were culpable.
And being a Catholic, I am well aware of types of sin– omission, comission etc. But Catholics also believe that we have to be completly cognizant of what is going on etc. and willing to commit a mortal sin for example.
THAT said- we still classify sins and have punishments for them— I think she must go to trial and that it would help the cause of all involved in these psycopathic situations.
Since we don’t know the evidence, or the details of the entire crime, what Josef’s wife knew or didn’t know, really all we are doing is speculating about whether she “knew” or not, and if so, how much. How much did she participate, etc?
Since I have no way to know for sure what is in her mind, heart and intentions I’ll reserve judgment on her for now. Since there is little to NO doubt that he did what he did, it is another story entirely. Right now my anger would like revenge on him, starting with pulling his finger nails out one at a time, then his toe nails….but that is not good for ME to think this way. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord” and I strongly believe that He will take vengence on those that hurt others…and I trust that His vengence is going to be worse than anything I could even imagine. All we can seek here is justice, and Josef will get some of that, though as long as he gets attention, he may actually like it.
I have no doubt that he knew what he was doing was “wrong” but he felt “entitled and Right”–and I would bet he still does. He’s a psychopath, he has no conscience. No shame.
I’m not even sure that psychopaths fear punishment, even the death penalty too much. I sincerely doubt that my P-son fears prison, he knows what it is, has adjusted to it, and gets lots of narcissistic supply doing his cons inside the wall and living in a fantasy of what he will do when he gets out. He’s as “happy” as a psychopath can get I think.