By now everyone knows about the astounding case of incest, etc. in Austria. No doubt some are going to excuse Josef Fritzl by suggesting that he must be a mad man. Others (for instance here) will find fault with society.
These rationalisations are because for regular people the immensity of the crimes are blinding. But there are enough clues already that what Fritzl is is a psychopath and as such is responsible for his actions.
Take one small detail – the alleged role of drugs in the case.
Franz Polzer, the Austrian police chief leading the investigation, said Fritzl had given the impression, during protracted interrogations, that after 24 years he now actually believed the web of lies he had constructed to keep his incest a secret from his own family, the police and the public.
“Fritzl insisted that he chose Elisabeth as his favourite daughter, built the bunker just for her and felt that he had to lock her up because he was frightened that she was about to become involved with drugs.”
The reality was quite different. When his daughter was 18, Fritzl lured her into the elaborate cellar which he had built under his home during the Cold War in the late 1970s with the help of a government grant available for constructing domestic shelters against nuclear fall-out.
Police said he drugged his daughter with ether and handcuffed her to a wall in the cellar. During the first years he is alleged to have “kept her like an animal”.
Isn’t this classic? The kernel of truth is something to do with drugs, but see the evil inversion of the lie: he was trying to save her from drugs when in fact he used drugs against her.
(I wonder what thoughts readers have about Fritzl’s wife, Rosemarie, who police say was wholly ignorant of the matter. Asked why Mrs F was not being investigated, Colonel Polzer replied: “Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”)
Yes, fry this guy.
But what about the ostensibley normal folks who could do something, but don’t?
WEll, I wish I could answer that question HWS with something profound, but about all I can think of to say is “life ain’t fair”— I dont’ know if you remember the episode that happened I think in Chicago years ago a woman named Kitty Genovese (spelling may be wrong) was walking down the street and some perv killed her, stabbed her to death, beat her, and like 45 or so people watched and DID NOTHING, didn’t even call the police. Some folks actually closed their windows so they wouldn’t have to hear her dying screams.
It caused a big deal on the national news about why people wouldn’t help her. Studies were done about why etc. Apparently if you are among strangers and need help (like you are being attacked) the MORE people around the LESS likely you are to get help….DUH? Well, apparently each person sort of freezes and thinks that it is someone else going to do it…and it ends up no one does anything.
The old “it’s not my yob” thing.
In thinking about all this, when 8 or 10 lions attack a herd of 1000 wildebeasts, if the animals would turn TOGETHER and attack the lions they could easily over come the lions with their horns and hooves, but instead they run, each animal for himself. As soon as the lions have made the kill, the other 999 animals stop running and go back to grazing, unconcerned for their fellow animal being torn apart. I guess sort of “well, it wasn’t ME” sort of thinking.
Society tells us to not make waves, to not pry or intrude in other people’s business etc. so even if you suspect “something odd” going on next door, you are probably not going to call the police, and even ifyou did, chances are that unless there is blood on the kitchen floor when they walk in they aren’t going to do any investigation on suspicion of “something odd” at the neighbors.
Just as we who are more intimately acquainted with Ps do, we look at the RED FLAGS in retrospect, but we didnt DO anything at the time we saw them waving in the hurricaines of our lives, and we were CLOSE enough that we should and could have.
There was a time when I was pretty sure I knew what I WOULD DO under any given situation—I thought there was pretty much a black vs white right and wrong situation. Now, I am seeing that I am not nearly as smart as I thought I was, and don’t know the right answer, heck–half the time I don’t even know the QUESTIONS, much less the right answers, but I am becoming much more empathetic of people who are victims, even ones who have become “volunteer” victims, than I ever was before. Again, “There, but for the Grace of God, go I”
There is always enough blame to “go around” in a situation like this–someone who knew something and didn’t do anything, someone who suspected, etc. but the CHIEF blame rests on Josef, the psychopath. Josef’s wife would have to have been living with that man >42 years if she is Elizabeth’s mother, and I can only imagine how he has brow beaten her, even if he never laid a hand on her, and I sincerely doubt that he was non-violent with her if he did this to Elizabeth. She’s probably at least my age (early 60s) and I imagine a pathetic shell of a person, the person she could have been if not for Josef. It’s a sad and tragic situation.
I am puzzled that he is facing 15 years in prison. Damn he kept his daughter 24 years in prison, he should get at least 24 years and not 15. it is so unfair.
I agree with you, I don’t think the potential sentence is repsresentative to what he did in any way, shape or form. Even for an “ordinary” kidnapping it wouldn’t in my opinion be “enough” However, given his age, it is effectively a “life” sentence.
It seems that Austria is very lenient with sex crimes. As a previous post here mentioned he was a CONVICTED sex offender, not just a suspect: convicted and time served… but after 10 years the Austrian authorities destroy the records. Preposterous!!
Human captivity, as much as it’s an abomination to humanity it is not new. “Repunzel, Repunzel, let down your golden hair” … “Hansel & Gretel” … fairy tales that depict this bizarre side of human behaviour; captivity, abandonment, cruelty, etc. It also seems that many of these atrocities are more common in European countries. The Brothers Grimm who wrote many of these ‘fairy tales’ were German, the Holocaust, as we know, was Germany.
As recently as 2006 another young girl was discovered after being in captivity as a sex slave for 8 years, albeit, not her father but captivity nonetheless … and that was also in Austria!!! What is WRONG with these nations???? These are civilised countries?????? In his early years as a child, Fritzl was abused and badly beaten on a DAILY basis by his single-parent mother during the end of W.War2 and he was also often witness to Russian soldiers brutally raping women and children. No wonder he has no empathy and no wonder he has exuded this extreme control and disregard for woman as valuable human beings. Let me say this, clearly: THIS BY NO MEANS EXCUSES HIM from this behaviour. NOT AT ALL!! There have been MANY people who have been exposed to atrocities but have not acted out like Fritzl did.
The 15 years sentence will most likely be just the beginning of a list of offences. If the hospitalised daughter dies, he’s on a murder charge. This young girl is in an induced coma while doctors try and find a way to treat her. At this point they are doubtful of her recovery because she has massive organ failure. He’s already on a murder charge for the baby he incinerated that died shortly after birth. No intended sentence has been mentioned yet for that. He is also a suspect for a murdered girl who was found in a river near his home in the 80’s. I think the authorities are so shocked at the magnitude of this crime that they really don’t know what to do just yet. Their priority is to revive the comatose girl and to protect the family from the media and photographers. Not only is this the crime of the centuary, the mentality and cruelty exuded over a persons own flesh and blood is even worse than the Holocaust … Hitler had no emotional attachment to the people he killed, albeit millions. Fritzl did this to his own flesh, every day, up close and personal and for such an incredibly long period of time.
Austria’s government and police have a LOT to answer for with this considering that this is the 2nd such crime in that country in just two years!!! I have posted comments on the Sky News blog pages suggesting that the Austrian government form a nationwide “crackdown” campaign and inspect EVERY building throughout the country that has a bunker. These bunkers are VERY common there and what better place to live out your sick fantasies than in your own basement where you can go undected as Fritzl did. The inspections should also be carried out on a REGULAR basis, at least every two years. Yes, it’s a massive exercise and yes it will cost the Austrian government a lot of money but hey, if the government cannot ‘police’ it’s people to a level of respectable acceptance then it must now do what it takes … no matter the cost. There can be no price put on the heads of Elisabeth, her children and the traumatic events of the lives they have been forced to live. Is this the impression the Austrian people want the world to have of them?? WAKE UP AUSTRIA and petition your government to ACT and stop this barbaric nonsense. Flush these psychopaths out… no one will object to such an inspection if they have nothing to hide.
Personally I think that Frizl should be made an absolute example to the rest of the humanity. Forget about human rights for this man … he is not human and does not deserve to be treated as such. A lethal injection is waaaay too humane for him. I think he should be put into his own dungeon, fed a minimal amount of food but mostly he should be given just enough oxygen to keep him alive and aware … a slow process, for as many years as possible, of asphyxiation… with webcams and live streaming SO THAT THE WORLD CAN WATCH HIM SUFFER as he dies … or alternatively, set him free in society and let US gather and deal with him. The dungeon punishment is better because as a free man in society, he won’t last longer than 5 seconds and in my opinion, that is too nice.
This story has a long way to go yet.
OxDrover – unfortunately those creatures tend to live for a long long time
Sir Laurens van der Post, a South African who was in the Japanese prison camps in WWII, and wrote about the horrible treatement he and others received there, stayed in Java after the war to help in the process of cleaning up, and in the trials of his captors. This man did NOT have Stockholm Syndrome by any means, but he worked toward reconcilliation and forgiveness. His writings and the writings of Dr. Vikotr Frankl who was in the German POW camps during that same time, have greatly influenced my thinking on the aftermath of suffering, and what OUR thoughts ideally should be.
Yes, Josef is a monster, as are the guards and administrators of these camps were–for whatever reasons—Ps, or pressure, or “orders” or prior brutality as victims themselves–none of that excuses in any way the behavior, but if WE become so angry and feel “justified” in horrible inhumane “punishment” (vengence rather than Justice) then we become just like them.
THEY felt “justified” in treating other humans badly because the other humans “deserved” it. WE, can feel “justified” in pulling his fingernails out because his behavior “justified” and “deserved” it. My first reaction is to want to burn him at the stake because his behavior “justifies” horrible retrobution. My anger wants to “bring back the inquuisition” and all their manners of torture that they inflicted upon people with different religious view points because it was “justified” in their minds to torture and kill anyone with a different view on religion–or even a suspected different view.
But if we become angry and feel that WE have the right, or that WE should torture another human because WE believe it is “justified” are we not becoming just like them? Filled with disgust for another human being? Feeling superior to another human?
I am actually not against the death penalty, I feel that properly administered it is warranted BY LAW not by individuals, though I also feel strongly that I would not hesitate to kill in defense of my life.
While I hate what Josef did, and I feel that he deserves to be removed from society by LAW for his crimes against humanity. For me to sit here and wish all kinds of tortures on him only hurts ME, hardens and makes me feel emotions that are best not felt. Sure they are natural emotions, anger and hate and wish for revenge, but our Ps have also injured us, and it is n atural for us to want to punish them as well—I have layed awake many nights imagining my own punishments, but those emotions were negative and not good for ME. Josef will get “justice” by whatever forms that government uses, and hopefully, their laws will be reviewed form ore appropriate forms since he is a REPEAT offender.
Some have cried out for his wife to also be punished or punished as an “example” to others. I don’t know how much this poor woman knew, or how much she participated in Elizabeth’s captivity, but I think at worst she probably had Stockholm syndrome and to “punish” this woman for being in theFOG I think would not workk as a deterent to any o ther woman in the FOG with Stockholm and would serve no purpose to prevent any future crimes of this sort. The guilt that she must feel and the shame (assuming she is not also a P) must be more than punishment enough.
I too feel anger at Josef, and wish for horrible t hings done to him, but I am working on getting those feelings out of my heart, and while I think he deserves the FULL effects of the law,, whatever they are…I can only try not to let MY feelings of revulsion work negatively inside me.
It is like the “forgiveness” of my own Ps and what they did tome I think is important to ME–and “forgiveness” to me means only that I GET THE BITTERNESS OUT OF MY OWN HEART. It doesn’t mean that I am “trusting” with them, or have a “relationship” with them, because to do that would be foollish. I was raised and trained and told that “forgiveness” meant “pretending it didn’t happen” and that never seemed right in my eyes, even if I believed that was what “God” wanted me to do….well, I have a different view of God’s will now. I’ve read the Bible with different eyes, and quit believing the “interpretation” foisted on me by my enabling mother that in order to please God I had to “pretend it didn’t happen” and that unless I did that, I was bound for hell.
Our ideas of right and wrong, and religion, and love, that may be “twisted” by the way we were raised, I think, has prfound influence on what we believe about ourselves and how we should conduct our lives. In examining these early beliefs, I have found that some of the ones I held are NOT valid, and have substituted new beliefs and new thinking.
Prejudices, such as racial prejudices, are learned and if you were raised to believe that all people of another color are bad, and you never examine that belief, you will accept it as “true” whether it is or not. Unless you examine your own beliefs, one by one, and either validate or invalidate those beliefs, keep the good ones and toss the bad ones, you will be forever trapped in the beliefs that were passed on to you.
Some of us were taught error as “right” and it is up to us as adults to examine these beliefs and make changes where needed. In order to heal, I think we must grow, and validate our OWN TRUTHS not ones we were given as children or by the Ps.
APG,
The kind of a woman that could do this would be the kind of a woman tha twas a victim of a Sociopath.
It’s sick and twisted and as we do know… so is being involved with one, let alone married to a Sociopath.
I think this story could have happened anywhere to anyone- any one of us could have been the wife. (atleast, alot of us could- once you’re in the FOG, you’re in the fog.) The x-p in my life just didn’t have the resources, money or brains, to pull off a nightmare of THIS scope. He was clever, don’t get me wrong, but not this clever- his ego and sense of superiority frequently tripped him up. He was so busy posing as king of the world he’d leave a trail right to his self-awarded throne. If his mother hadn’t been a CONSTANT enabling check-writing force, he would have been just another dumbass criminal in jail 20 yrs ago.
He got brave and stupid with me and my daughter. He finally abused someone(s) who couldn’t be bought off by mommy’s magic checkbook. He victimized other women and children and businesses after I threw him out and before last week. Those victims didn’t have it in them to go after him. We weren’t backing down. He took a plea bargain for 6yrs in prison- because we were going to help convict him for realistically 30+yrs. He would have been looking at a max of 90 yrs, had it gone to trial.
I read an article about punishment right before the Fritzl story came out… the US LEADS the planet, far and away, with prisonable offenses and the prison terms thereof. 15yrs is nothing for what he has committed…if it IS all he gets, may he not live it out.
WOW Glinda, Congratulations on getting at least legal “justice” in your case! I know it is not pay back by any means, but it is SOMETHING and more than most of us get! Good for you!!!! Whoopie, let’s throw a party, Glinda’s P is going to the big slammer!
You get the “Brave survivor of the week award!” Good for you!!!!!! ((((hugs)))))) 0–0 (those are handcuffs for your X) LOL