By now everyone knows about the astounding case of incest, etc. in Austria. No doubt some are going to excuse Josef Fritzl by suggesting that he must be a mad man. Others (for instance here) will find fault with society.
These rationalisations are because for regular people the immensity of the crimes are blinding. But there are enough clues already that what Fritzl is is a psychopath and as such is responsible for his actions.
Take one small detail – the alleged role of drugs in the case.
Franz Polzer, the Austrian police chief leading the investigation, said Fritzl had given the impression, during protracted interrogations, that after 24 years he now actually believed the web of lies he had constructed to keep his incest a secret from his own family, the police and the public.
“Fritzl insisted that he chose Elisabeth as his favourite daughter, built the bunker just for her and felt that he had to lock her up because he was frightened that she was about to become involved with drugs.”
The reality was quite different. When his daughter was 18, Fritzl lured her into the elaborate cellar which he had built under his home during the Cold War in the late 1970s with the help of a government grant available for constructing domestic shelters against nuclear fall-out.
Police said he drugged his daughter with ether and handcuffed her to a wall in the cellar. During the first years he is alleged to have “kept her like an animal”.
Isn’t this classic? The kernel of truth is something to do with drugs, but see the evil inversion of the lie: he was trying to save her from drugs when in fact he used drugs against her.
(I wonder what thoughts readers have about Fritzl’s wife, Rosemarie, who police say was wholly ignorant of the matter. Asked why Mrs F was not being investigated, Colonel Polzer replied: “Let me ask you a counter question: would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”)
Loki,
Fear, Anger and striking back are normal reactions to any kind of injury in most living creatures.
“Venting” or “ranting” verbally is a substitute “revenge” or striking back from the emotional injuries that we feel from having heard about this man’s horrible crimes.
After 9/11 many people in this country were emotionally injured (not just the people in New York and Washington) by the crimes committed by the men who attacked our country. Those men who did this horrible crime actually thought that they were repaying us infidels for our crimes against their countrymen and fellow Muslims. They believed that their God wanted them to kill us and would reward them for killing themselves in the process.
While I was angry at these misguided men and their lethal ideas, it didn’t mean that I wanted to go down the street and murder the Muslim neighbor of mine in revenge.
But I also can understand the frustration of the American guards in the prisons with the suspected terrorists—but it must not be allowed to be taken into action. When videos of American prisoners of the Muslims having their heads lopped off were being posted, I’m sure the guards felt that the things they were doing to prisoners were pale by comparison.
These men have become “learned psychopaths” in my opinion because they have been taught that the “others” are not human, not worthy of consideration, and are deserving of torture and death. I am sure that my own 12th century ancestors lit the bond fires under the bodies of people who held heretical religious beliefs, thinking while they did it that they were “cleansing the world from the devil.”
Keeping an emotional balance when dealing with psychopathic criminals, and still treating them as human, and within the laws, can be difficult at times I am sure, and keeping a balance with people who have been taught to commit what we think of as heinous crimes in the name of “God” is another difficult task.
Venting and raging in a safe environment is sometimes a way to let this anger go before it becomes action–either directly at the perpetrator or at their “stand in.”
People who commit “crimes against humanity” whether they are doing it for psychopathic reasons, or for religious reasons, in my opinion, must have their activities curtailed. They are, however, still human beings. I am not totally against the death penalty in some circumstances. I have studied the war crimes trials from WWII and other such trials, Sir Laurens van der Posts writings about the trials of the Japanese after WWII for crimes committed in prison camps where he was captive. About his talks in the prison after the war with the man who buried his friend alive, all except his head, and watched for three days while the man suffered and finally died. He forgave this man, acknowledged his humanity, yet Sir Laurens was there for the hanging, both to see justice done and as support for the man being hanged. I aspire to reach that level of self-actualization but doubt that I will. That’s pretty powerful stuff.
So is psychopath an “ethical” designation or a scientific, medical, biological one?
Would “learned psychopaths” as you call them fail to register the fear response when evaluated with devices that measure it?
Are we suggesting that psychopaths see “others” as less “human” than themselves — or rather that their deviant brain function renders such philosophical concerns irrelevant?
Your response posts explain the urge to revenge — but I already remarked that this is not what is perplexing. What is perplexing is that *people who believe in the medical existence of psychopaths* (that is, posters here) do not seem to be affected in their vengefulness by these beliefs (in one direction or the other). The question of whether psychopaths are responsible for what they do is less relevant than the question of *how* they can best be punished. (An earlier post, maybe OxDrover’s, I am not sure I recall, remarked that a psychopath might only be *punished* effectively through understimulation or deprivation of attention/interaction — this seems very sensible. Whilst it seems to be that either *destroying* or somehow effectively *using* psychopaths is probably more important to society as a whole than *punishing* them, since the only social function of punishment is either as a deterrence against malefactors or as entertainment/satisfaction for the victims, or the mob.)
Similarly, I am not convinced that people who act amorally, immorally, unethically, or whatever, are acting “functionally” like psychopaths. Psychopaths do not seem to experience moral outrage and do not exhibit it unless faking it, and if I understand the data correctly, their vengefulness is either manifest in immediate outbursts, or with rational calculation (rather than as the festering ‘sense of being wronged’ which is characteristic of victim-think or actual victimization.) Thus, those who want to punish wrongdoers would seem to be acting very *un*psychopathically, however brutal or vengeful their preferred methods of justice or retribution may be. To continue the analogy, it would seem that we would be acting psychopathically if we coldly and rationally determined that public torture and dismemberment of all criminals was the best way to help the innocent population feel that justice was served, while simultaneously not caring at all for justice ourselves. For this reason, the Inquisitors alluded to in the previous post were only psychopaths if they were torturing heretics for pleasure or profit, not for piety.
OxD:
You raise an interesting point.
“But if we become angry and feel that WE have the right, or that WE should torture another human because WE believe it is “justified” are we not becoming just like them? Filled with disgust for another human being? Feeling superior to another human?”
Torture is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. But I do not feel the slightest bit sorry wishing that someone’s behavior be stopped by any means necessary if it is harming other people, particularly innocents who just happen to be in the line of fire.
Say, for instance, someone is out to harm me. I have a lot of trouble fighting back with them or, if given opportunity, torturing them. But if by extension what they were doing to me harmed my child, then I would have no qualms stopping them. Even if it meant going to jail, myself.
There is only so much a person can withstand from another person before they would find some means to retaliate. Maybe some choose to torture in return. I have yet to meet someone really capable of turning the other cheek and walking away under any and all circumstances. For a long time I thought I was like that (and I was) but now, with certain people in life, they either leave me alone or they will get back what they have given me.
I do not think that makes us psychopaths. Just humans pushed to a personal breaking point. My ultimate breaking point is my kids, as it is with many mothers. But no longer will I just take bad treatment laying down, or even as Jesus wishes me to, by walking away. Although it may be wrong, I’m done turning my cheek when it comes to a select few people who have harmed me.
In rereading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s search for meaning” yesterday I came across some quotes about some of the victims of the Nazi camps, after liberation BECAME PERSECUTORS because of what they had suffered.
His experiences were somewhat like ours, in trying to over come the horror, without becoming like our Ps. He also described how some of his fellow inmates returned to their homes and their neighbors and former friends did not “get it” what they had been through, or said “well, we suffered too”–and how that disapponted and disolusioned the former prisoners.
Others went home, after living on a fantasy of finding home like it was, only to find no family, no home, and no understanding.
It really got to me about how those ULTIMATE victims of psychopath torture, those wonderful survivors seem to have so much (emotionally) in common with our feelings. Dr. Frankl used his years under the Nazi torture to find meaning in his suffering, to NOT seek revenge, and to be the kind of person he became. These victims were in NO way “volunteer” victims, as some of us have been, but they suffered endless torture of mind and body and only 1 in 26 survived.
I can understand, as did Dr. Frankl, how some of those victims could be so angry and hate filled that they wanted to “do unto others as had been done unto them” and I can also understand how some of them could have been so invalidated by their neighbors not understanding, and I can also understand how some of them could be so “empty” at finding that their “fantasy” of home was not real. How many of us have had difficulty to the fact that our “fantasy” of the “dream” that we worked so hard for that we ENDURED for, that we wanted so badly wasn’t real? How we have grieved over this fantasy not being real?
I don’t want to be like the former victims that became like their persecutors, and I don’t want to be so disappointed in the fantasy not being real that I don’t see the things that are real, that are good…I’m alive…and I don’t want to be so disappointed in my fellow man not “getting it” that I crawl off into a cave and never want to be around another human, either. I want to take the road that Dr. Frankl took, or try to anyway, and find “meaning” in what I went through, even though I was a volunteer victim.
Sometimes I let my anger show through, and I have the urges to be the one that “gets even” but I know this is not the best path to follow, so I check myself, pull on my internal reins and say “Whoa” to myself, and get back on the track toward a healing path.
As far as “self defense” is concerned, I have no problem protecting either my own life or the life of someone else with “the least amount of force necessary” up to and including lethal force. To me “retaliation” =”revenge” and I do believe that is wrong. But being backed into a corner where there is no retreat to safety and your life is in danger, coming out “shooting” is I think very justifiable self defense.
As far as “turning the other cheek” my personal opinion is that means not to seek revenge over slight things, not standing up and saying “hit me again.” In many instances “walking away” (NC, as it were) is the best thing, rather than standing and trying to “fix” the person.
I was raised to believe that “honor your father and mother” meant absolute suvservience to them, but I now see that “honoring” your parents is becoming the kind of person that would BRING HONOR to the parents…if your parents are Ps, it doesn’t take being abused to “honor” them.
I was raised to believe that “forgiveness” is the same as “let’s pretend it never happened” even if the person who did the bad deed has no repentence and no remorse and continues the same behavior. Now I realize that forgiveness is an ACT, the act of getting the bitterness out of your own heart, but, and that is a BIG BUT, it does not mean that you have to continue to interface with them or to RESTORE TRUST.
I have found many good psychological lessons in the Bible, and found examples of Narcissists, psychopaths, etc. described there, and enablers as well. Some of the descriptions of how people reacted, both appropriately and inappropriately are very interesting lessons for us in dealing with these people.
After king David’s N son, Absolom revotlted and the King’s army went out to fight him the last words David said to his generals was “Deal gently with the young man.” Talk about an enabler! When at the end of the war his son was killed, DAvid went into screaming grief for his son. David’s general came to him (embarassed I am sure at the King’s lack of apparent gratitude to his army that had suffered so much) and said to David “I perceive that if all of us (the entire army) had died, and the young man lived YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN WELL PLEASED”
David, a man far less than perfect, realized that what the general said was true, got up, washed his face, and thanked his army.
When I read that, I realized that my own enabling mother would have been “well pleased” if my P-son had gotten out of prison before she died, even if it had meant that I was dead. At that point, I went NC with her as well, and until I did so, I could never have truly healed.
David looked at his own sins (when someone pointed them out to him) and he truly repented, and changed his ways. That is all that any of us can do when we make mistakes, or do things that we know are wrong, is to truly repent of those acts and to change our ways, make restitution if it is possible, etc. If others are not willing to do that, we are not required in my view, to associate with them or allow them to continue to abuse us.
We can rightly seek justice, but not revenge, even though revengeful thoughts are the “natural” feeling at being injured. I want to model myself after Dr. Frankl’s point of view and let my “suffering” have meaning by making myself a better person–for myself, and for the world and those in it.
Josef deserves in my mind, the complete and total justice that the laws allow for his crime. Even though part of me might like to seek revenge aganst anyone who does such horrible things, it is not in my best interest to harbor these vengeful thoughts, but being human myself, I’m not going to beat myself up if they come into my head momentarily, I’ll just try to get back on track.
Ok. I can compliment everyone on such loooong posts…:)))) I did not read them through, because they are toooooo loooooooooonggggg, but as I understand correctly it is aout tourture. I say 2 things:
a) tourture is wrong. Why? Because my INSTINCTS tell me that it is wrong.
b) You must obey and follow the law. Law is based on precedents. That is lets say “kidnapping” is punishable by 15 years in jail. No one could ever imagine that “kidnapping” can last 24 years and children kept their whole life in the cellar. So hopefully they will modify the law and will take into account this precendent.
Tourture is against the law, it is against the instincts. Gang neighbourhoods run their own laws. Do you think they are fair?
cellstemcell–I agree. Short enough.? LOL
“would any wife accept such a thing if she knew about it?”
why do people say such ridiculous things anyway? i don’t understand why he would glaze over that unless he was just speaking in the heat of the moment or naive. when i think about xS I think about his co-liars too. everyone knew he was no good but no one cared and no one cared about met all, because they were getting something out of it.
we all live in the real world and we know that if someone is there (as in actually in the same house) and never reports it and nothing comes of it there is an equally good chance that they are aware as if they are unaware.
but i hope either the officer who spoke was just being hasty or that another officer will step in and continue to investigate the wife. especially with so much media attention i would hope people will demand a fuller investigation.
I do not get this statment either (from rudolf mayer) something like “I think he is mentally ill, because normal people would never want to have sex and children from their own daughter, he has to be mentally ill”
excuse me….Normal people do not rob banks, you have to be mentally ill to rob the bank, therefore if you robbed the bank you would not be responsible…
When they found ROsemary’s car on the street authorities’ logic was equally strange “it is not rosemary’s car, because if it were rosemary’s car police would do something about it , therefore it is not a resemary’s car”
Wha…t? GO take LSAT dudes, shake your brains stupid
hi there. im new. i was thinking about this case and wanted to share my thoughts and maybe learn something, since I can’t figure this out by myself, and you people actually know what you are talking about since you understand the P’s mind.
this may be inappropriate, i don’t know, if it is i’m sorry, but I don’t think josef fritzl is as bad as everybody thinks he is, or maybe to put it another way, he could have been worse. the few redeeming things he has done are:
1) he says he was thinking of releasing her at first and wanted to do so, but was afraid of the consequences to himself and therefore kept putting that decision off further into the future while this battle of good vs evil was raging inside of him. the longer it got the harder it was to release her, until finally it became too late and he decided not to release her at all. I believe him on this one.
2) he gave the children some paper, glue, toys, etc to distract them. if you are locked in a room and there is absolutely nothing to do, you go mad. this at least gave them something to do and there is a HUGE difference between having nothing to do, and having something to do, no matter how small and boring it is. he also gave them vitamin D or E and a UV light to improve their health condition.
3) he says he was about to release them in a few months anyways or eventually, before his death, and that he always left the timer on, so the if he were to die, the door would open automatically and they would be able to get out.
4) he did take his granddaughter to the hospital.
you could interpret these facts as “not that evil” or “maybe even more evil”. For example, the things he gave them in #2 could have been conditional, a stick on a carrot tactic. Elisabeth would have to smile at him every time he entered the room, or was not allowed to resist at all in any manner, or was never to mention release at all, or he would take these things away. This could have been for him a form of ultimate power.
he is now saying he had the door on a timer and it would open after a while. I don’t know about this. even if true, there were 8 locked doors leading to the super electrically controlled door,how could they open those doors if they didn’t have the keys? weird. lack of details here, but this could indicate that he is lying, there was no safety mechanism, and if he were to die, they would all starve to death inside there. what a way to go.
his granddaughter. did he or didn’t he? there is only speculation right now. why did he take her to the hospital, he could have just let her die and dispose of the body, and continue allowing the family to deterirate until they all died. could it be that he was so brazen, that the last thing he wanted to do before he died, was to impregnate her and have her give birth to a child who would live, to top of his life of crime, and he risked getting caught by taking her to the hospital rather then just letting her die.
the most disturbing thing for me about this is the almost no oxygen air inside, which forced them to spend most of the time sitting/lying. The fact that she spent the first 9 years in a single room until her 4th child, and then the cellar had to be expanded. Guess who had to dig and do all the work in this atmosphere. The fact that Elisabeth’s teeth became rotten and fell out one by one, and she was in unbearable pain day and night and couldn’t sleep. the fact that the granddaughter suffered from shaking and uncontrollable screaming, and during all this josef was raping his 30something daughter who already had grey hair trying to produce more children.
many people get angry at josef and want to kill him or torture him. I don’t get angry at him, since at his age, there is nothing that could be done that would attone 1/1000th for what he has done. hopefully there is an afterlife and he can suffer there. I am sad for the victims and try to understand what they went through and the magnitude and longevity of the terror they experienced.
one thing that puzzled me was that she didn’t resist. she didn’t attack him, or complain, or demand to be let out, or curse him. she didn’t kill the children so that they wouldn’t have to suffer like she did, she didn’t attack him and so on. josef said she was strong and never complained. But I guess that is because she was brocken and unable to resist, after all that is the first thing they do, is to break your will. I have never been brocken, but how awful it must be to be brocken and be unable to offer any resistance.
ohh, and one more thing, what about all those other times were these crimes are successful and the victims do not escape, but die in their dungeons, maybe experiencing even greater terror and whe never hear about them.
Dear Angel,
The excuses he said about how he gave them glue and paper to amuse themselves—etc and the “good” things he did for them, are excuses and to make himself appear not so evil.
“I was going to let them out”–bull crap—if he was going to let them out and he was scared of the consequences, then he was still thinking of himself more than them—doing horrible things to them so that he wouldn’t have to suffer the consequences of his bad acts. Is there anything “good” in protecting himself at their expense? I don’t think so.
The guards at the Nazi prisons and camps said “I was only following orders” but that didn’t fly in their trials and I don’t think his “good intentions” fly with any reasonable person.
I think he is “Satan in the flesh” and deserves the worst the law can legally give him. There can be no repair to what he has done to the 6 children and his daughter, either physically or mentally. Have you ever had a toothache from an abscessed tooth? It is as bad as child birth or worse, I can only imagine how she must have physically and emotionally suffered, and not even enough air to breathe? No sunlight for 24 years? The children bent and stooped because they couldn’t stand up straight and probably ricketts from lack of vitamin D and sunlight? He would in my opinion have been less cruel to have strangled them all.